Homebirth transfer after 52 hours of PROM + 36 hour labour and then a precipitous labour planned freebirth || Rhiannon's birth of Luna (HB transfer) & Rafael at home (Victoria)

This is episode 72 and is shared by Rhiannon living on the land of the Bunurong People of the Kulin Nation. 

Rhiannon shares how her homebirth transfer with her first baby influenced her decision to freebirth her second baby. We talk about the opportunity for inner growth that pregnancy and birth can offer, how she decided on freebirth and her engagement with private midwifery for her antennal and postnatal care, and of course her two birth experiences that were extremely different! 

Resources: 

• Prelabour Rupture of Membranes 
• Precipitous Labour
• The First Forty Days 
• Meal Train 

Transcript

0:05

Welcome to Birthing at Home, a podcast. I'm Elsie, your host. I'm a home birth mom of two little boys, a doula in Melbourne supporting birth at home. I'm a mental health nurse and the co-creator of Home Birth Victoria. If you want to learn more about me, the podcast, or my work, check out www.birthingathome.com.au. Before we begin, I would like to acknowledge the Wurundjeri people who are the traditional custodians of the land I'm recording on in Ngaam, Melbourne, Australia. I would also like to acknowledge the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples have been birthing at home on country for tens of thousands of years prior to the British invasion and acknowledge that sovereignty has never been ceded. This is episode 72 and it's shared by Rhiannon living on the land of the Bonorong people of the Kulin nation. Rhiannon shares how her own birth transfer with her first baby influenced her decision to free birth with her second baby. We talk about the opportunity for inner growth that pregnancy and birth can offer, how she decided on free birth and her engagement with private midwifery for her antenatal and postnatal care. And of course her two birth experiences that were extremely different. As always, please share this episode in whatever way you can and please rate or review the podcast on Spotify or Apple. Enjoy. Welcome Rhiannon to Birthing at Home, a podcast. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for joining me. uh I was going back through my emails and saw that uh I think you actually reached out in December last year. So it's now June. So I'm really grateful for you being so patient with me. Are able to give the listeners a bit of background to who you are, where you're located, who's in your family? Yeah, so I'm located in Eltona and I have two under two. um myself and my partner together we have five. So my partner has three children from his previous relationship. So we're a very busy house. How old's the eldest? The eldest is eight. There are twins that are five. my gosh. My daughter, my first born daughter is two and my son is eight months. Wow. my goodness. That's full on. um And so you're gonna share a little bit about the birth of your two year old Luna, but then um also the free birth that you had with your eight month old, Raphael, right? Yes. Cool. So I suppose knowing that you have some older kids, um like, and I guess reflecting on your own upbringing and knowledge around pregnancy and birth and whatnot, Did you know before you had Luna, like anything about home birth, birthing at home, free birth, any of that kind of stuff? When I um got pregnant with Luna, I knew immediately that I wanted to try for a home birth. My own birth was extremely traumatic for my mum. Yeah. And there was a lot of intervention that was involved. It was 1984. Um, so things have changed a lot since then, but just from her story and a lot of things that she told me, it felt like there was a lot that happened that felt to her like it was out of control. I feel like that really came through in, her parenting and how she felt about being a mother, um, and really affected her long-term in her life and also our relationship. Yeah. so for me, although it felt like this impossible dream to be able to, you know, birth my baby at home, it was something that I really wanted. I wanted to do. it felt, it just felt really, really important for me and my lineage to heal backwards that way. Yeah. way that I was going to choose to birth this way. Yeah. A hundred percent. But it didn't quite work out that way. so um we did, you did briefly mention the hospital that you had Luna at and they obviously have the home birth program. Did you know that they had the home birth program or what was that journey? So I did go through the home birth program. I had a referral to a private midwife from a girlfriend of mine who'd had an amazing experience. with this particular midwife and she was wonderful. She guided me through my entire pregnancy, know, being a first time mom and just set me up with all the knowledge and the tools and also set me in the directions that I needed to go to educate myself on things that maybe I was worried about or felt like I needed more information about. It was wonderful, but I just ended up having a really, really, really long labor. Um, and got to, excuse me, I got to the point to where, um, I really did doubt myself and I lost faith in, in my ability to continue. I mean, it was a couple of days into my labor at home. Um, and I, and I, and I wondered, you know, if this was something that I was going to be able to achieve. And I feel like, yeah, as the doubting started to happen around me, it started to happen within myself. And very, very reluctantly, I took myself off to the hospital, which was only 15 minutes off the road. And within 35 minutes, my daughter was just born. Wow. Oh my goodness, Rhiannon. So through your whole pregnancy with Luna, you're actually planning a home birth. Absolutely. Yes. Yeah, that's what I remember. Wow, my goodness. so it actually... Yeah, there was nothing that was going to take me to a hospital. my gosh. Yes, but when I reflect on it now, that was the teaching and it was... There was something within me that didn't want to face authority in the terms of like, didn't want to... But if I my baby at home, I don't have to disappoint anyone. I don't have to say no to anything. I get to completely call the shots. essentially get to hide. was, there was something in that. Um, but the healing and the teaching was in actually, I had to add, learn to advocate for myself in the face of authority. Wow. Which I did with the support of my partner and my midwife who accompanied me to the hospital. Um, so that was quite traumatic. but I did it. And I guess I came out of the other side of the birth, although I was quite disappointed that I didn't have her at home and you know, all this and that, and how I planned this, you utopian birth. Yeah. can't for your first birth because that's what you think it's going to be like. Of course. And then reality hits and you a few bumps in the road and maybe some things need to change. Yeah. But I realized when I reflected back and I spent some time with my midwife when she came and did some postnatal care, we were doing some debriefing that, you know, that was a big fear of mine was to actually say to, you know, the head midwife that I didn't want to do this or that, or when they thought that I sure did. um All these types of things. And yeah, that was something that I had to do. That was a healing that I needed to work through. Oh my goodness. That's why I believe that that birth went that way because I wasn't, I couldn't just hide. I had to, you know, have to grow up. Like if I couldn't advocate for myself, how was I ever going to advocate for my daughter? Yeah. So. Yeah. Oh my goodness. And so how many hours roughly were you in labour with Luna and how many roughly weeks were you? I was 39 and three. Yeah. 39 and three. And I think it was about 36 hours. Holy moly. And so you, so it was actually a home birth transfer really? Basically, yeah. Wow. Oh my gosh. And then 35 minutes into being in hospital, she was born. Yep. Something like that. It's all, it's a huge blur from the decision of ah reluctantly going to hospital and getting in the car and getting there was just up the road and the triage and all the things. it's yeah. But was very, very quick. And it was just by a whisker that I missed out on having an epidural. It was actually only because I had agreed to many things at this point because my waters had been open for 52 hours, I think. so I had agreed to having antibiotics and then they brought it and I said, no, I'm not going to have that. They weren't too happy with me. Yeah, there was a couple of current maybe everything but there was a few other bits and pieces that came up and I was like No, I don't do that. I said don't have no for dual and then I was like, well, I'm stuck now I'm here. I'm well, I'll just do it. m then someone came and knocked on the door and said He's been held up It might be another 15 minutes. Yeah, and then ah The head midwife um asked if she could do an examination and she had a look and she's like How are you feeling? Do you feel, do you feel like you could push? And I was like, never done this before. Yeah. I was like, well, all right, I'm over this. Let's just get this done. two pushes and she was out. Holy moly. Wow. That's yeah. Wild birth is just so bizarre. And so I guess something that sounds really positive about that story. And I guess, in, in, Luna's story sounds like your private midwife was quite a supportive part of that postpartum journey and like integrating what you'd kind of learnt and like unraveling, you know, what had happened and whatnot. It sounds like she was quite an important part in that or a supportive part rather. Absolutely. And it was so needed. uh And so helpful for, it took me quite a while to come to terms with, you know, um quote unquote, that failed home birth. m Which I don't see as that now, but at the time that was, you know, the terms that were kind of, you know, ringing in my ear. Yeah. As we can be, you know, quite self critical. Yeah, of course. In situations like that. But yeah, she was amazing and helping me to process that. and being such a support at the hospital and afterwards as well. So I'm very grateful. Yeah. Wow. That's beautiful. so, so Luna is two. So what's the age difference between her and Raphael? 16 months. 16 months. Okay. So in that 16 months, because you, you free birthed Raphael. without midwives. So what the heck happened? So what happened is when I was seven months postpartum with Luna, I found out I was pregnant again. And I was like, Oh my gosh. I'm sorry. I'm 40 now. I was 39 at the time and I was 38 when I had Luna and they were both. surprise pregnancies. Yeah. Okay. And I just thought to myself, well, you know, if I find the vessel, I accept the challenge. And I just kept thinking to myself, well, Luna took a bloody long time and it wasn't enjoyable, but she made her way down on her own with a wonderful supportive team. also had my auntie as an unofficial. dollar roll. Yeah, beautiful in the space, which was really, really beautiful when I, when I was at home laboring with Luna along with my partner as well. My dogs. Yeah. I thought, well, I did it once. Why couldn't I do it again? Because I proved to myself that my my body actually could do it. It just took a long time. Yeah. Yeah. And it didn't really need anything apart from time and support. Yeah. So I thought, well, I would have loved to have had a midwife throughout the whole, but unfortunately it's financially um not accessible, not as accessible as I would have liked. course. Especially with like, uh you know, some might call like a relatively small gap. in between, like that's definitely, you know, a very, mean, home birth is super difficult to access for like almost everyone unless you're really rich. um But especially if yeah, you got like having babies close together that that's yeah, a lot to ask to, you know, come up with, you know, basically $20,000 in two years for two births, that's wild. It's huge. Yeah. And it's, and it's really sad that our medical system makes it, um, not accessible uh to everyone. mean, it was really, really difficult for my partner and I to be able to fund it the first time around and we were willing to do it a second time. Yeah. And I just thought, you know what? Like I didn't want to put us under that financial pressure. I did consider going under, um, the hospital programs, but there was a number of reasons why I might have been excluded. Yeah. And I don't know, I'm a bit of a rebel. Yeah. And there were certain tests that I didn't want to take. Yeah. Because I didn't have them when I had Luna and I didn't believe that I needed them. Yeah, of course. I was of the feeling that if circumstances changed within my situation, yeah, sure, I would have a bunch of tests. But I didn't want to jump through those hoops of having to have tests that I didn't feel that were necessary for me in my body with this particular pregnancy in order to qualify for something. 100%. I thought I'd take it a step further and I said, let's fever. I remember I explained it to my partner. He got the concepts, but it was only about a month before Raphael was born. He's like, so when's the midwife coming? Oh my gosh. And I said, Adam, said that he's going midwife. He's like, so he's birthing the baby. said, me. And he's like, oh, I don't know how I feel about that now. Oh my gosh. And so, so your, your journey to, you know, choosing to birth without a midwife that seems to have happened like pretty, I guess, you I want to say that intuitively, like I knew that you could birth a baby, you knew, you know, especially with Luna, it seemed like trusting the process and being patient and trying to shed some expectations around, you know, how long the labor should be like that played a role in it. um But then, you know, you're like, yeah, I guess, did you have any, um especially throughout your pregnancy, anything that you did to sort of come to terms with like risks or fears or worries that especially you yourself had? Yes. So the number one um concern that my partner had was postpartum hemorrhage. Yeah. because when Luna was born, believe I'm trying to get the mills right now. Once you've had the second baby and you haven't slept properly for a couple years, the details get a bit fuzzy, don't they? Yeah, yeah, yeah. think I was about 500 mils. Yeah. I think I had, and it was considered a minor postpartum hemorrhage. Yeah. So there was some concerns there. And I didn't know a lot about postpartum hemorrhage. you know, your first pregnancy, you can't school yourself on everything. Um, you know, so, but then it comes around the next time and I was like, I think I need to dig a little bit deeper into what is a postpartum hemorrhage and who decides what that looks like and how did that feel for me? And so I went down this huge rabbit hole of the quote unquote postpartum hemorrhage and what I The conclusion I came to for myself was that I didn't feel majorly affected at the time. I did feel like my placenta delivery was quite rushed. Yep. Okay. So that was something that was really important to me to try to have undisturbed placenta delivery. Yeah. also made sure that I had lots of tinctures and herbs. had all the things, all the gadgets, all the gizmos. But it's not something I believed was going to happen again. was very intuitive. um There was a lot of people that told me I was mad. there was a bit of pushback, but I just had to trust in my knowing. uh And having said that, I also want to add that I was very, very fortunate. had, um, apart from feeling like shit, both my pregnancies, I had no complications. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. No, and, and, and, and none really in birth either. Yeah. Um, and that is not a reality for everybody. So had my outcomes with Luna, um, been different and had I had needed. Um, lot of support on there, there'd some other things going on. Then my, might not have had the confidence to as what someone said to me the other day was that that was a really ballsy move. Yeah. have a quote unquote failed home birth and just go, fuck this. I'm going to free birth now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, but I mean, I think like, yeah. And I guess it's so much of, um like Once you give birth, it's, it's done. Like you'll never get, you know, you, you, you go on a journey and the journey is the journey. You can't, you know, I mean, there's so many things that you think, well, maybe that could have been like that, or it could have happened or this or that, or this or that, but like, can't replay it. can't rewind. And so you really like just hearing like the basics of your story with Luna. Um, yeah, holy moly. You must've been. exhausted. But so like, yeah, what role did like going to that unfamiliar environment? What you know, having to go through triage or whatever you had to go through seeing unfamiliar people, having pressure placed upon you for the antibiotics and having other people's fears like imposed on you? What role did that play in, you know, what actually happened with your placenta with the blood loss or whatever, you have to consider that role. Honestly, it was so traumatic that whole decision to transfer to hospital. My mum was in the hospital recently, obviously not Joe Kerner, but the other section of the hospital. m I had to park near there and I was parking the car and I just had this flashback of you know, being in labor and getting out of the car and saying to my partner and my midwife that was with me the child, don't want to do this. Like, Oh my God, I'm fucked. And you know, all these things and, and you know, all those memories like it does, it has really stayed with me. Although I had excellent outcomes for my birth in the end. I was treated amazingly in the hospital. Um, uh, you know, my daughter was born, were no issues. it was all great, but it was still, it was. Yeah, of course that would have played a role at um how things turned out in the end. I have this, this little internal joke with myself because my daughter, she's, she's a journal and she's, she's quite a busy bot and she's just in a rush to do things. And I always say to myself, I feel like at that moment she just knew, okay, no more mucking around. It's time. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've got, I've got to come out now and I've got to do it quickly. because I'm going to agree everything now because she's done. Yeah. Yeah. I've really dragged this out for as long as I can. Yeah. And now I'm done. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah. Wow. And so, um, like, did you know anybody that had free birthed? like, yeah. Wow. I don't even know if I've met anyone now that has free birth. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, mean, I always find things like this so fascinating because there's a lot of, you know, I guess stigma out there that like people choose free birth because it's like trendy or like, you know, they saw something on Instagram or, you know, whatever. But like at the end of the day, it's just trusting your body and you don't really have to like have followed someone or like the idea doesn't have to have come from anybody else that can just be your intuition that actually this this is actually the right decision for me and I think that's like incredible that's yeah wow and it's and it's not the right decision for everybody and I really struggled to tell my story in a lot of circles because I felt that I've been with some other mums that have judged themselves because their story has looked different to mine. You know, whether it's been an emergency C-section or, you know, I took, I had an epidural or, you know, I did this or I did that or whatever. I've, although I've really wanted to celebrate it and shout it from the rooftops because for me, it was like the most amazing thing that I've ever done. Yeah. Like it was my dream. was, and I just felt that like, like if I could pull off this free birth, I can fucking do anything. Yeah. Because we're living in, in, in a world or in a time now where we're told that birth is not safe. Yeah. To, just allow it to happen. So that felt really important for me. Yeah. And it might, and, and honestly, I didn't feel safe in hospitals. Yeah. Another woman might feel really safe in a hospital and that might be what's very liberating for her. For me, it wasn't. And I wanted to be in the safety and the comfort of my own home. Like I needed my dogs around me. I knew, you know, my partner, my, you know, my, my daughter was actually present at my son's school. Although it was a little bit of a shit show because she wasn't quite sure what was going on. She crying and stuff. But that was healing. for both of us, like this is what I couldn't do for you Luna. Now you're getting to see that this could be possible for you because you get to see your brother be born now. Yeah. Wow. I think your intuition is one thing, but like feeling like in tune with it and feeling that you can actually trust that is like a whole other thing. And I think that's like, All power to you because that's, that's fantastic. That's amazing. Um, that's really powerful. Yeah. I, you know, I absolutely had my doubts and I was like, you know, what if this all goes wrong? I just had to tell myself, well, hospital's only 15 minutes up the road. Yeah. You went last time. So why couldn't you just go again? Yeah. And, and, and, and I had, I had doubts a lot, you know, like, throughout so much from I thought what will people say blah blah blah and all these things and I was like no you're gonna pull this off and if you don't just like last time the support will be available yeah and and you can go and get what you need and it will be okay yeah yeah absolutely um and so were you so Luna was going to be there your dogs Your partner. My partner. Were you having anybody else there? Were you having, did you say your mum was there for the birth of Luna? No, so this is for Luna's birth. had my auntie was here. Oh, your auntie. Yeah. And I had a private big wife. Yeah. And then for Raphael. But when it came to for Raphael, I had a gorgeous student doler. Cool. Um, and that was really tricky because there's not a lot of student dollars that are allowed to assist free birth. found out when I was looking for one, but I did find somebody that was able and bullying and very excited, which was wonderful. And it was just so, she almost didn't make it here in time because I went from having a 36 hour labor to a two hour active labor with less. Oh my gosh. What the heck. And we humming and ahhing about whether we were going to call her or not. Cause I was like, we're going to be at this for two or three days like last time. Yeah. Let's not call her now. And I was like, my God, I'm dying. Somebody bring her. Oh my gosh. And so obviously Luna was quite little when Raphael was born. Yeah. She was 16 months. Was there anything that you tried to like do with her to help her prepare to be in that environment or? did, but she was probably too little to understand. yeah, yeah. I think she was just getting to the point where she was having an awareness of like, you know, there's a baby in mommy's tummy. Yeah, she really knew what that was. Yeah, had some really beautiful books um that I shared with her, but I think the information was just a little bit over her head. Yeah. And it didn't help that like when my labors like ramped up to the max. She was asleep and then all of sudden she woke up, um, to mum in the pool and you know, lots of things going on. and it was, yeah, it was quite an interesting day for her, but as soon as she seemed to come out, she was so excited. Yeah. And I think like the important thing is as well, even, you know, like even though she was little that this story of Raphael being born is a story that she will now hear and, you know, she'll be a part of the story, like for the rest of her life. So even, you know, like I even think of this, I took my kids, this is a bit of a random tangent, but I took my kids and my husband to like a wedding for like a sort of friend in India at the start of last year. And, um, it just seemed like ridiculous. Like Frankie at the time was like six months old and Murphy was, like almost four maybe. Um, and it just seemed so silly to be taking two very little kids to of all places, India. but like, you know, those are, we're going to forever tell those stories. And I think that that. story that we tell, that's what shapes, you know, how they see the world and, you know, how they appreciate the world. And I think it's the exact same with um like small children being at birth, like even at the time, if they're not really sure what's going on, the impact just ripples because like it's you're going to tell this story so many more times. And I think that's really special for Luna too. Exactly right and it also for her to grow up with this awareness that it was actually really normal for my auntie to be in the birthing space. My cousin was also here. Wow. Like yeah because I have you know spoken about that to you know some other people and they're like oh isn't that a bit weird like having you in bellows and like whatever there and I'm like no I'm like because these are the people that I most trust. And that most know how to hold the space for me. Yeah. In my most vulnerable moments. Yeah. So for her to grow up knowing that that is possible and this is something that she was a part of, that was like three generations in that room. know, whilst her brother was being born, I just, I can't wait until she grows up. to see how she feels about birth. Yeah. Compared to how I felt about birth before I birthed. Yeah, absolutely. Because of that being a part of that experience and em I'm sure I listened to a thousand birth stories on podcasts in the car driving around with her when she was so, so little, she was probably like one. Yeah, wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So whether she remembers any of that, her little psyche has taken any of that in, I don't know, but it's all the good juju. Yeah, quite possibly. Quite possibly. I think that's interesting what people said about, you know, having family members present. I think that, like I could be wrong and maybe people disagree with me. I don't know. But um I feel like that does tie into like women's bodies being like sexualized and like being naked, being like a sexual kind of thing. Whereas like, like in labor and birth, it's, it's not sexual. Like this, these are our bodies doing like the most powerful fricking thing that they could actually possibly do. Like that's, that's not sexual. That's like all, all inspiring or something. That's like, you know, goddess material. That's Yeah, and guess people don't really, yeah, like in society, yeah, women's bodies especially are so sexualized. So I wonder if that kind of plays into people thinking, it's a bit weird to have your Rolo's present. for sure. But in my experience, um it helped me so much to navigate, you know, the really tough times. And I also feel like, you know, my partner is amazing. His amazing birth partner. But I think sometimes that is so much to put on one man to, like, especially when you're at home as well, because there's a lot of things you've got to manage. And I was gung-ho that I wanted my toddler there as well. And my partner saying, sure, you know, want me to like, you know, take Glinda to mum's or like, I'm like, no, she's got to be here. So we wanted, you know, the many hands around to help with, you know, with the many things. And also for there to be support for him. of course. Yeah, because in my mind, we're going to be going at this for three days. Yeah. I mean, I mean, that's possible. Like that's thing about labor. It's like better to, you know, have your sort of, for lack of a better term, like toolbox of like resources that you can access. And like, yeah, absolutely. If that feels right for you to have people extra hands. Yeah, that obviously makes a lot of sense. Yeah. And so during your pregnancy with Raphael, um you know, you sort of spoke about how you did a lot of working through different fears and whatnot. Were there any other resources? You obviously said that you listen to lots of birth stories. Were there any other resources that you found particularly helpful, um like in preparing to free birth? Yes, I was working with um a private midwife uh who I was doing my prenatal appointments with. Cool. So she was a wonderful resource for like a couple of things that came up. So she was able to send me in directions of other allied health professionals if I needed them. Nice. For certain things um and in the direction of uh more research as well. Yeah, cool. So that really helped when I went down the wormhole of the postpartum hemorrhage was the main concern and the one that I wanted to understand better and also because I wanted to have that physiological placenta birth. Yeah. Fantastic. What an awesome resource. so I became quite the nerd. Yeah. um As most like, yeah, I mean, I'm not the expert, but in my experience talking to, I mean, women that birth at home in general, but especially women that free birth. yeah, you, they obviously generally speaking in my experience know a lot about like almost everything. I just wanted to ask, so with those antenatal visits, for, guess more for listeners to, who are kind of like, how did she do that? sorry. to clarify like the cost of a private midwife, the big cost is usually around the birth, you know, the birth, at least in my experience, I think the just the birth was like$6,000. And that's quite literally just the birth. um So for those antenatal appointments, like did that cost very much? Did you get any like Medicare rebates? How did that work for you? So there was a small administration fee. I think it was a couple of hundred dollars and then the rest was all bulk billed by Medicare. And I was able to have as many appointments ah as I needed or wanted to. Yeah. And I was able to either do some of those online, but luckily enough, um this particular midwife was practicing in a clinic that was just up the road. every four weeks or how often. you say your regular appointments, you're at your pregnancy, I was able to go and see her in person. Yeah, well, which was great. Yeah. And then she was also able to do some home visits for me towards the end and um after Raphael was born because I read that content. Like the continuity of care is just uh so key for me. I've been very blessed with both. postpartum so that I've been able to have that continuity of care and I think it has really helped because it's that fourth trimester is just such a delicate time and I can't imagine what it would be like getting in the car. I also did the 40 days practice as well with both my children so that's why I'm saying getting in the car. You know and going somewhere three or four days after you've had a baby to go and have an appointment with someone that you don't know like that just felt so jarring for me. So was really, really lucky to be able to have these beautiful women that supported me throughout both my pregnancies come to my home for a weeks and check on how I was doing and check how Bud was doing. And it just made that period um much more easeful and just really magical. eh my gosh. That's fantastic. I don't really think I've had I mean, maybe I'm losing my memory now, but I don't think I've had somebody that's um had, you know, antenatal and postnatal care, but then actually had a free birth, like, you know, in the between. But I think, yeah, if you can't access a midwife um for the birth and you've decided to go down the free birth path, but, you know, I think there is a lot of stigma in even the free birth world really, um that you know, accessing any care is like against the rules. And it's not it's not real because you still accessed care. But I think like that's, um, was kind of going back to what you were saying about something being trendy, like, yeah, we're doing it because it's trendy, and we want to slap a label on it. Or are we just choosing the birth that suits us? And if you want to call it free birth, or you want to call it, honestly, like, I don't care. Yeah, it Honestly, it doesn't matter. I chose a birth path that made sense to me. I had the scans. I didn't really want to have the scans, but there was a couple of little things that came up, which luckily throughout the pregnancy resolved by the end. I chose the, like I tailored the pregnancy and the birth to what felt right for me. And it probably doesn't have a label. Yeah. But I mean, tailoring, everyone should be able to have that experience. it should, like tailoring is like literally individualizing and making it fit you, not you fitting the system. And that's, that's amazing. So Raphael, he was born much quicker than Luna. What was like the lead up to going into labor with Raphael? So it was a school holidays um and um my partner's girls were having a bit of an extended stay with us because it's a school holidays. Sure. And they were due to go home I think the day before the day after my due date and I remember you know trying to sit in meditation and I was I did heaps of spinning babies. Yeah. I can't recommend that enough throughout my whole pregnancy because I feel like with Luna there was a bit of a position everything that was going on. Yeah. As to why my pregnancy, so whilst my labor might have been as long as it was. So I was doing lots of that, you know, was in meditation, doing spending babies, they were out and I was just, I remember saying, was like, Raph, I'm like, you need to stay in there until after 10 o'clock on the 3rd of October, because it is going to be too hectic in here. There will be four kids and all this stuff going on. And I, you know, I just need there to be less happening in we live in a very very small space. And sure enough the night before um the girls were due to go back to their mum um my waters opened really gently and I was just like all right okay so I've got the so it's communication happening between me between my son and I you know and that and that felt really I was like he's been listening. Okay, I'm like you got to stay in there until like for a few more hours come out said to my partner What is open is a fuck? Okay, so probably tomorrow? Yeah, and I went back to bed and it was a really interesting sensation because I Was having the very light, you know period cramping throughout the night every half an hour every hour Nothing major all in through to the next morning. We got up we had breakfast with the washing on like doing all these things and it was like nothing had changed and Adam went and took the girls back to their mum and he's like when I come home you know I'm gonna blow up the pool and you know put the tarp down and you know he had his plan of the things that he wanted to set up to organize the space for what we thought would play out over the next couple of days and it a really really warm day and I rang him and I said are you gonna come home soon? He said yeah and I go I really want to go to the beach and he's like are you sure? kilometers from the beach is that are you sure you want to do that? And I said well I'm gonna do my 40 days it's getting warmer I'm gonna miss out on going to the beach because I'm gung-ho about doing my 40 days as well and I want to spend some time with Luna you know before there's another baby in the space is like I don't know if you should do it but it's only up the road. So my cousin came over and she's like you sure you want to do this and I go yes absolutely want to do this and I remember we got to the beach and I got out of the car and I thought Oh gosh, it's really hot here. There's a lot of people here, but I'm doing it because we're here. So we got to lunch and we had a little swim and then the girlfriend came down to see us and got in the water and she looked at me she's like, you don't look too crushed hot, mate. And I'm like, I think I'm going to go. She's like, I think you should probably go. And I was like, all right, we've done our hour here. Let's go. Come on Luna, we'll go get into the car. having to stop on the way, you know, when you're very big and pregnant and you're in a bathing suit, know, people tend to stop and look at you and smile. And I was like, eyes rolling back in my head trying to walk back to the car. Yeah. Because I had, I had three surges in 10 minutes out of nowhere. my auntie was timing them for me. was with us as well. And I got into the car and my cousin said, I don't think you should drive the car home. And I said, I don't think I should either. And then She looked at me and she's like, if you're saying you don't want to drive, I'm panicking, get in the car. Yeah. in the car, got into the driveway, two kilometers up the road, not even. And I was beside myself. Whoa. I could not get out of the car. Like I had not felt pain. Like I don't remember any traction surge, whatever word you like to use for my labor with Luna feeling this way. And I was like, Oh my gosh, this is only just started. What the hell is going on? Yeah, yeah, yeah. we went inside and we like, just weren't prepared. Like, you know, I was going to get my crystals out and set up an altar and put up a playlist, my affirmation. Like, I was going to do this all day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, fluffing around the house and doing all these gorgeous things that, you know, I wanted you to prepare for this amazing free birth that I thought I was going to have. Yeah. There was absolutely no time for that. within m an hour, I was on a birth ball. I just can't explain how out of control I felt. Wow. In that moment, I was thinking to myself, I am gonna die. Yeah. I cannot do this for, I was like, oh my God, Luna's labor was 36 hours. Oh my God, I can't do this for 36 hours, I'm gonna die. Yeah, all these things. And then Adam said, know, do you want us to call Jarrah? My jeweler and I was like, oh, I don't know and I'm like, I'll just call it because no no one else knows what's going on Yeah, and she got here maybe half an hour later and she walked in and I go I'm fucked I'm like what's going on? This is fucked! And she's like yeah, she goes because it's coming and I'm like now and she's like I think so I was like, alright, so I'm gonna get in the birth pool then I'm like cuz I'm gonna die And so you say having these this thought that this is like out of control. This is too. This is so much. This might be too much. It did you did you have any thoughts that like I should be going to the hospital or something's not right? Yeah, I really did because it was just it just felt so different. And because my mind was future pacing of how long I thought labor should be 36 hours. Yeah. That's right or more or whatever. And I thought, look, if I'm lucky, I'm going to smash this down in 12 hours. That's what I was saying to everyone. I'm like anything under 12 hours would be sweet. It'd only be 36 hours again. And that's why I started thinking like, I'm going to have to go to hospital. And it was like, it was just that perfect time. My daughter walked in the door. She was cool as a cucumber. And she's like, you're not going to have to go to hospital. She's like, cause you haven't gone to the pool yet. Yeah. She's like, maybe you go, do you think maybe you might want to do that? And I'm like, why can't you just let me to relax? Like every breath technique. mean, I'm a yoga therapist as well. Wow. I know a lot about Pranayama. I've done all the breath work. I've been to all the classes, all the things. And I was like, there is nothing that can save me here. I will scream like an animal. Oh my gosh. And it's so interesting because I asked like in that last meditation that I did. before I started going to labor. I'm like, what do I want from this birthing experience? And I'm like, I want to feel life move through me. Yeah. And life moved through me, did. Yeah. And I got into the pool and I was literally just in there just to have some kind of a respite or something. Cause I was like, this is just, you know, so full on. And I was, and I was, um, had my partner in extra had my hands on him and I was like oh she's like what's wrong I'm like I've just got into this pool I can hardly move and I feel like I'm gonna do the biggest poo. Yeah. And my cousin goes don't worry about it she goes if you do it in there we'll get it out she goes just stay there you happy stay in there. Wow. And it's all fine and I was like oh whatever we'll just let it go and then I put my hand down and his head was crowning. I his hair. Oh my gosh. was like I'm like no I'm like we've only been at this for like an hour and 45 minutes. I'm like, no. And I, you know, looked up at my Dula and she said, no, she's off, he's coming. And I was like, okay, all right. And then I just remembered when Luna crowned, it was kind of like the end game. That's what I told myself. So once you get to that point, you know, it's, we're done and dusted. Yeah. Essentially, you know. the really, really hard yards was over in my experience. I can't speak to anyone else. I was like, all right, well, we're just going to chill out here. And I was really interested in... um finding out whether the fetal ejection reflex would be possible for me. Yeah. So I was like, right, we're crowning, we're doing the thing, we're just not going to push and we're just going to chill out here. Yeah, cool. I remember my cousin coming around to me and she's like, she looks really calm now. go, oh, we're pretty much done now. I'm like, well. we're gonna test this theory, thing that I've been listening to on all these podcasts and like you don't have to push the baby out and you don't have to get all these tears and all this jazz-o like you've already had one before so it will be easy. I'm like well let's just see if comes out. Yeah. And she's like okay whatever. And then you know I had another big surge which I felt was like right in the back which if you've uh had a physiological birth. before you would know what that feels like. Yeah. And I was like, okay, here we go. And then, you know, a big sort of growing back head out. Wow. And I've got some really beautiful photos. I'd love to send them to you actually. Yes, please. You can just see the someone taking the photo from the back of me because I was leaning, you know, over the pool. Just his little head just out, just chilling out in the water. And it was, it was a little wild. It was Maybe three to five minutes, I think. Wow. And then another big surge, bang, he was out. Wow. And so during, it's like once, once the, once like he'd crowned, it seems like a sort of calmness, like sort of washed over you and you're like, oh, I'm not going to be doing this for 36 hours. It sounds like you actually then were able to really like enjoy it. Then I was able to relax. was like, we're pretty much done here. Yeah. What do you mean? What do you mean we done here? I'm like, Oh, well, yeah, heads out. Like the rest will come out. Wow. That's what I was telling myself at the time. Yeah. And it was just, it was, it was wild. And it was also really strange because it was such a sunny day and, um, my blinds don't close all the way down. in my kitchen actually. Yeah. Where the birth pool was set up. And I kind of did this weird maneuver where my cousin actually caught Raph as he was coming up like, my god, don't pull the cord. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't pull the cord. And I sort of had to flick my leg over and sort of roll around and then grab him and put him onto my chest. And I was like, I think I said something like, my god, I did it. This is so gross. Yeah, this is so gross. something really daggy like that. I just looked at him and he was like so little and like, he cried straight away. And just the whole room like was just in, it was just magic. It was just a really, really magical moment. And I was like, fucking did it. Yeah. Oh, it happened to me. Do any leave. Yeah. Oh my gosh. That's incredible. I can't believe how quick it was compared to, yeah, your experience with Luna. But then like, yeah, just the calmness. I'm reflecting on my own experiences and like, I just would like, even with the... Like I don't remember until my babies were actually born, born. I don't remember feeling any sense of calm. just remember it just, especially with Frankie, my youngest, who's um almost two. um I just remember it being like, holy crap, this is like so painful. When is this going to be over? And then once, once he was actually fully born, it was just that all washed away. was like, you somebody had snapped their fingers and it was just. you know, all of those endorphins and the oxytocin, it just, just washed over me and it was all done. But I think that's, yeah, so fascinating that you had such an awareness in those, you know, last minutes that I'm, I'm just going to see if this fetal ejection reflex actually works. I've heard about it. Let's, let's put it to the test. Like that's brilliant. That's so good. And so did you what was the birth of? um Raphael's placenta like did you stay in the pool? How long did that I did I did stay in the pool and I can't remember how long it took I know I had all my my tinctures I had some blitzkrieg her tinctures no bleed something rather I think it was called yeah, because I was you know all the precautions for the you know, try to not do the postpartum hemorrhage thing again, of course and I reckon it was within about half an hour. Yeah, but it was painful. Like it was very painful and hurt more than him coming up because it was bigger than him. It was huge. Wow. I actually believe it weighed a little bit more than what he did. What? my gosh. Big chunky placenta. Nice. Yeah. Holy moly. And so I think I was just maybe squatting in the pool and I was holding him and um yeah, it didn't take as long as what I thought because you know, I'd prep to, you know, maybe get out of the pool and do the sitting on the toilet over the bowl thing and go in the shower and all this and that, but I didn't really get a chance. So yeah, that was nice because it was kind of nice being in the pool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I guess I'm also curious. So you said you had your auntie there. And was sorry, was there another family member there? My cousin was here too. And your cousin. And so they're from how you've told the story, it seems that they were like pretty trusting of you trusting yourself. Did they have like any fears or concerns that they at least spoke to you regarding free birth? No, I feel like because my auntie, you know, had been with me throughout almost all of Luna's labor. She was with me up until I went to the hospital. Yeah. And for my cousin who has not had any children yet, her reflections on it is that it has helped to dissolve a lot of fears that she had about birth. Wow. present at this birth. Yeah. is what I had hoped. Wow. Oh my gosh, so many ripples. Yeah, goodness. That is so special, so beautiful. Also, I think you're really funny the way that you told the story about, you know, thinking it was going to be 36 hours. I'm fucked. How am going to be able to do this for 36 hours? I'm pretty sure that's what I said. I'm like, no, I'm like, this can't happen. And I wonder that there's something in people like, oh, that's so gross. You had such a short labor. But I actually did go into shock afterwards. Yeah. And I actually felt very disconnected from myself, from my body and even from my son for a couple of weeks. Wow. Took me a very, very long time to properly land after that birth. Maybe because it wasn't, although it was excellent outcomes, but it wasn't quite what I expected. Um, so yeah, there was definitely something to be said in that I didn't have the opportunity to hit altered state of consciousness. I did with, with Luna, like I went, I went to Mars and back a number of times in labor with her like that. That was super cool. Yeah. Yeah. But this was just so fast and so kind of jarring. Um, absolutely not what I expected. yeah, the the coming back to my, myself and grounding in my body and being able to be present and in connection with him, I felt was a little bit more challenging. Even though we had the utopian home birth and all the things, isn't it interesting how stuff like that can happen? Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's, um, yeah, well, I dunno, I dunno what you would call it, but, um, like, Yeah, like it's labor, like obviously 36 hours is full on and it really sounds so exhausting. yeah, you also don't want it to be too quick necessarily because yeah, that is quite common. hear uh mums that have had fast labors, they're like, well, yeah, okay, it was fast. yeah, it took me hours, days, weeks to actually like, you know, like you said, land from that whole experience because it just happened so, quick. Didn't get to get my crystals out, my affirmations, my podcast, There was no altar, no nothing, no fairy lights. What? I didn't know rebirth could happen without the crystals. All the fairy lights. All the fairy lights. my gosh. uh I guess, I'm being funny here, but like I guess the reason why I'm saying that is because you know, I love a gimmick and you know, I love a product and you know, all these things. But I guess I learnt that for a lot of us, birth just happens. 100 % without the gimmicks without the but I still want all the things. I still believe in them all. Yeah. I want the bloody fairy lights under the line. I did want the fairy lights. Yeah, exactly. Um, yeah. I mean, uh and that's that trust. You know, that's, that's the piece that I'm coming back to. You know, sometimes I feel like, you know, we want to have like, the gimmicks are great and I still believe in them. And if I had another baby, I'd still have them all. And I'd definitely make sure those fairy lights were on. I'd make sure all that shit was set up two or three days before now. Not knowing what I know now. But it's just that, that trust in like, you know, it will happen and your body can do it and you've got to work through all your stuff. Yeah. But you can do it. And I think something was so beautiful is my, beautiful dog had puppies, about three or four months before I had Raphael and it was the first time she had puppies and she birthed these four little puppies like bang, bang, bang, like in so quickly. And I watched her, her body and you know, how she was moving and how she was breathing and her body just did it. Like she, there was no. fighting. was no... trying to think her way out of how she needed to support herself. She just did it. And I think, that sounds really silly. m But that was like, well, yeah, my dog did it. So she had four. Yeah. She's like six kilos and she has no awareness of postpartum hemorrhage and placenta. But her body just did it. And we're mammals and I'm going to do it too. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, humanity would not have like homo sapiens us, you and I, we would not be here if birth didn't work birth. Most of the time, if it was left alone, it would work. But like, I guess that's a whole other podcast. I think like what you've said, I, don't think I can some summarize that any better than you have, I think. um Yeah, what you've said is so, so important. I wanted to ask like, so you had some postnatal appointments with the midwife. So in those early weeks, you know, when you're, yeah, like landing from your quick birth and whatnot. um Like, what was like your like, support like during that time, breastfeeding, recovery? How was that for you? Little tricky with having a toddler. Yeah, totally. Yeah. um Not quite the same as when I had had Luna, but I had up a postpartum doula as well to help out because there's a lot more moving parts when there's other children involved um to when you have your first, but then I guess you kind of know a bit more. I was really lucky to have lots of family around. Yes, I had my... my midwife would come and do some appointments to check out how we were going. I thought I was a champion breast feeder because I was still breastfeeding my daughter like all the way through my pregnancy but my son has cheek ties. So he was quite a challenging breastfeed up until he was about four months. Wow. That's all sorted itself out now. Yeah. But we did need to get a little bit of support around that. But apart from that, it's all a bit of a blur now. Yeah. Yeah. Always. It's a very, very busy time. Yeah. my gosh. Yeah. But for me, the 40 days of practice was like, that was my non-negotiable. Like, that's something I absolutely did with Lina and something I knew absolutely needed to help me to ground and feel like I could move out in the world a bit more confidently as a mum of two under two. Yeah. And so was there in your 40 days, like what particular things did you practice or did you follow? I rested as much as possible. Not as easy with a toddler. know, you've just got to get up and do things. But I had a lot of people come and, you know, take her to activities and come and spend some time with her. Just really beautiful nourishing foods. My daughter brought me some meals. I had family bring in meals. Meal train is just also a non-negotiable. I've some beautiful friends, you know, popping over to offer support and to help out washing or to bring some meals and things like that. And that, yeah, it's just really, really lovely to feel supported in that way. Yeah. By the people that you love and your community. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I wish yet everybody could, um, have that experience or everybody. I think there's probably a lot of people out there that would be able to, um, you know, access, suppose, whether it's family or friends or like monetary kind of resourcing. But I think a lot of people also just don't know how to ask and feel that that's a burden to place on someone but I would really encourage if anybody's listening and that is pregnant to just ask. think Miltrain is like a fantastic resource. feels like so well, I guess for me personally, it's felt like uh even participating in them. feels like so not confrontational that you literally just sign up for what you can do and you just cook whatever you can do. It's so simple. but it's, it's so impactful. Um, it doesn't have to, you know, be going out to find some fancy gift or whatever, like, um, a good lasagna or soup, especially in winter. It's like perfect. Yeah. Literally anything, just some, some calories really. Um, girlfriend that came over and she brought me a beautiful cottage pie. family, but also a really nice Bertram Muesli and also, I didn't even think about breakfast. And it's just been the best thing. Yeah. Delicious. you just can't think of everything, but we need to be nourished at this time. Yeah. Absolutely. forever. Meal training should go on forever. Yeah. I 100 % agree. Yes. It would make life so much easier if we, you know, like meal planning and cooking food is like, I reckon the worst part of adult. And especially when you bring kids into the picture, like I reckon we should just have like community cook ups where we all just cook like that. feel like that would take off so much pressure. And then you'd only if you had like a group of 10 people, then you only need to cook like, you know, once or twice. Yeah. In a week or a fortnight. Yeah. How good? I'm climbing up to that. Yeah, me too. ah If we lived closer, we could definitely do that. Well, it's been so fun to talk to you Rhiannon and I'm so grateful for you sharing your story, know, transferring with Luna and then like such an incredible um birth story uh of the birth of Raphael. Is there anything that we haven't talked about? that you wanted to talk about or that we've missed or anything like that? I don't think so. Yeah, thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to share my story. And one of the reasons I wanted to do it is because I listened to so many stories and that was so encouraging for me throughout my pregnancy, both of my pregnancies when I wanted to go rogue. Yeah, the whole the whole birthing situation. um And you know, we do hear so many negative stories, oh positive ones, and I wanted to, I feel like this is quite a positive story and I wanted to put that into the world as a bit of a pay it back. And I just wanted to say to any woman who's been told that they're unable to home birth or they have failed at home birth, Just sending you so much love. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So much love. Beautiful. Thank you so much, Rhiannon. My pleasure. Thank you.