Homebirth after caesarean transfer (repeat caesarean), the benefits of private midwifery when things don't go as planned || Haley's birth of Remy (New South Wales)

This is the 70th birth story and it’s shared by Haley mum of 2 living on Awabakal country. 

After a traumatic first caesarean with her first baby Nora, Haley eventually chose to hire a private midwife and plan her homebirth and vaginal birth after caesarean with baby Remy. 

Haley shares her pregnancy journey, her labour at home and ultimately the decision to transfer into hospital, which ended up resulting in a second caesarean. Haley’s story really is incredible, whilst we laugh a lot, this story really shows how valuable private midwifery care can be as it really influenced how amazing her experience was, despite everything, finding herself for the second time having a surgery she didn’t plan to have. 

In this episode we do talk about birth trauma in reference to her first birth so please be mindful when listening. I hope you enjoy this story as much as I do. 

Resources: 

• The Purple Line in labour 
• Side effects of epidurals
• NSW Birth Trauma Inquiry

Transcript

0:02

Welcome to Birthing at Home, a podcast. I'm Elsie, host. I'm a home birth mom of two little boys, a doula in Melbourne supporting birth at home. I'm a mental health nurse and the co-creator of Home Birth Victoria. If you want to learn more about me, the podcast, or my work, check out www.birthingathome.com.au. Before we begin, I would like to acknowledge the Wurundjeri people who are the traditional custodians of the land I'm recording on in Ngaam, Melbourne, Australia. I would also like to acknowledge the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples have been birthing at home on country for tens of thousands of years prior to the British invasion and acknowledge that sovereignty has never been ceded. This is the 70th birth story and it's shared by Hayley, mom of two living on Awabakal country. After a traumatic first C-section with her first baby, Nora, Hayley eventually chose to hire a private midwife and plan her home birth and vaginal birth after Caesarean with baby Remy. Hayley shares her pregnancy journey, her labor at home, and ultimately the decision to transfer into hospital, which ended up resulting in a second C-section. Hayley's story really is incredible. Whilst we laugh a lot, This story really shows how valuable private midwifery care can be as it really influenced how amazing her experience was despite everything, finding yourself for the second time having a surgery she didn't plan to have. In this episode, we do talk about birth trauma, especially in reference to her first birth. So please be mindful when listening. I really hope you enjoy this story as much as I do. Enjoy. Welcome, Hayley to Birthing at Home, a podcast. Hey Elsie, so good to be here. Thank you for joining me. Hayley, are you able to give a bit of background to who you are, where you're located, who's in your family, that type of thing? Yep, so I'm a 29 year old, mumma of two. Our little family looks like um me, obviously, my husband. um Been with him since I was 17. And we have two little people, Nora, who is nearly four, and Remy, who's one and a half. We live in Newcastle, in New South Wales. Yeah, cool. um Our demographics are like very similar. I am also 29 and I keep very similar ages as well. That's so funny. um Awesome. And so today you're going to share um the birth of Nora, which was a hospital birth and it was a C-section birth. And then the story of going for a home birth after caesarian with Remy that became a transfer into hospital and a C-section as well. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure there's like a lot more nuance than that. There is, there is. I guess to begin with, which is what I ask everyone is growing up, you know, as a young woman, what was your idea of pregnancy or like birth options? Did you know about home birth? Like, what was that like for you? So growing up, I'm the eldest of three um brothers. So there's four kids in my family and I'm the oldest one. m And there's quite big age gaps between all of us. So m I do remember for my last two brothers, midwives m coming over to our house because my mum went through the midwifery group practice. So that just always seemed like my option. My mum had All natural births except for her last one had a C-section. um And I did hear about home birth um a little bit. She had a friend, her best friend who she attended the home birth of her daughter. So I'd always heard that it was an amazing thing. um But when it came to my own pregnancy, um yeah, I just always assumed I would be in the hospital. with group of midwives. um So I guess the world was kind of falling apart when I got pregnant with Nora, who was COVID. It was bit crazy. um What I was like shocked by when I went to the GP um later on, I thought about in hindsight, but you go in and they say, do you want to go private or public? And it's like, they don't even have an option for home birth. which it was just wasn't even a thing. So I guess I thought to myself, it wasn't an option to me. I knew that people in Newcastle, there was a Newcastle um hospital that has publicly funded home births. So I knew of people who had a lot of them choose either the birthing center or um choose to be part of the home birth program. So I just assumed, well, home birth isn't an option for me because I'm on the coast and we don't have that. Yeah. Okay. And then, yeah, obviously got connected with the midwifery group practice, the more I, because I definitely go down like rabbit holes and like research everything and I need to know everything. And the more I read about birth and having a natural intervention free labor, the more I realized towards the end of my pregnancy that home birth would give me better outcome but I guess I didn't even know how to access it. It was the end of my pregnancy. I'm part of this group practice now. in my mind, like I did all of my informing, like I informed myself. I knew that I'd have challenges going to the hospital so my plan was to go in as late as possible. um I knew that I had to have a birth plan and I wasn't naive. I also had a birth plan if it did end up in a C-section. um But nothing can prepare you for going into the hospital and like the first shock to me was like I didn't even know the midwife. I had never met her when I finally went into labour with Nora. So even though you were in the MGP, you still didn't know the midwife. That's not how that works. No, so she was a midwife in training and a lot of my care was quite sporadic because it was COVID and then they're trying to figure out like how to do it COVID safe I guess. And so I didn't see my first midwife until I was 19 weeks pregnant. Which is crazy. Yeah so I had a huge gap in care from I think it was 11 weeks to 19 weeks because the GP that I was seeing the clinic shut down or she left or something. And then they were kind of like, but you'll get contacted by your midwife and then they'll like carry on with your care. But it was just like such a horrible first start because I was very, very sick. I actually lost weight in my first trimester because I was just so sick. And then when I see the midwives, they're like, yeah, it happens for some women. I'm like, I'm 19 weeks pregnant. Like I don't feel great. And thankfully that dissipated, but yeah, when I went into, m so I went into early labor on this Sunday morning at 10 a.m. and didn't present to the hospital until 5 a.m. Monday morning. And by then my waters had broken and I think I was like three minutes apart. But it's like, I was so scared going into the hospital. Yeah, and I didn't even know who this girl was, so I'm This is kind of weird. kind of defeats the point of like what MGP is meant to be, like the continuity of care. So what is your partner's name again? Nathan. And so at this point, like you and Nathan, so you've been quite sick throughout your pregnancy and so Nora's four. So is it like 2021 then? Yes, 2021. Yeah, 2021. um Like you've had this big gap in your pregnancy care. And you felt, guess, from what you're kind of saying, it feels like at some point you knew that there was other things that maybe you could access, but it felt like, well, I'm already on this path. I'm just going to continue. Like, I guess maybe there could be some thought, um like how different could it be? You know, like I'm seeing the same midwives or whatnot. So when you are in labor and you're going into the hospital, you and Nathan. Did you have any other supports that you were, I mean, it was COVID, so you probably weren't allowed. Yeah, so I definitely considered a doula, um but I think at that point it was one support person only. So yeah, it was just me and Nathan going in. Yeah. my gosh. And do you remember having any, because I know down here in Melbourne um or I mean, Melbourne, it was particularly bad, but in Victoria, like there was a lot of fear around inconsistencies. I think mainly it was maybe in 2020, but inconsistencies where partners were told they could only attend once the woman was like in a certain part of labor. Was that like a fear or something that was going on for you guys when you went in to have Nora? Um, I think because from what I had read, like I had read some horrible stories of women who had to go in and like their husbands couldn't be there for some of it. But I think I was just hopeful that that would be the case. I tried not to think about it, but yeah, it was definitely like a thought in my mind because of things that I had been seeing in the hearing. Yeah. Yeah. Goodness. And so you rock up to the hospital. Um, did you say like at 5 a.m. Yeah. Yeah. At 5 a.m. And you meet this midwife that you've never, never, you know, met before. Um, and so how did, how did that like play out? that, that must've, I was going say that must've been like almost the, the end of that midwife shift. So maybe it was, she was just starting shift. she was finishing her shift. I think she clocked off at like eight or nine from what I remember. And thankfully at the swap over there was my favorite midwife who did come in. yeah, I was like trying not to be uncomfortable around her. Like I'd never met this girl. And then I was just kind of in the zone from that point. So I think when Lucy came in at eight or nine, I was in the shower at that point and I was just like fully in the zone. So I was definitely in established labor by then. um Yeah. Yeah. Are you able to walk us through that, that, that your experience and how that played out? ah Yeah, so I made sure that Nathan set up the room so that it was as cozy as possible, like as cozy as you can get in hospital. Yeah. So I had the diffuser going, I had little affirmation cards, we had these little battery run candles. ah And yeah, I was just in the zone. And I thought that I was the kind of person who would want like hands on support, but I like with both of my labors now, I'm like, just don't touch me. Until the last bit where I'm like, I need a bit of encouragement now. yeah, it was just like, for the most part, quite a long and boring labor. I would say I was in the shower for a big majority of it, the hottest water you can imagine on my back. And then I did take the gas at some point. And then I think it was around like, Time is a bit sketchy, but I think it was around midday. um I said that I didn't want to know the time. I didn't want to know how dilated that was. Nothing's like to the point where my husband ripped the clock off the wall, but didn't know it was diff- it was fused to the wall. So he like ripped it out and there's like all these vines hanging out of the wall. And they're like, we just will think about that later. It was so funny. He's like, you don't want a clock? I will get rid of that clock. I'll do anything for you. It was so funny. um That's why I don't know like times and everything. They suggested I get in the bath so like I think I was quite far along because I think hospital policy says you have to be like seven centimeters or something. uh So they might have checked me or maybe they were just going by how I was sounding. And then I was in there for like two hours I'd say and that's when I was involuntarily pushing. I'm so cold by the way, it's like freezing here so I'm shivering, it's like winter snow, I'm trying not to shiver. It's no heat or anything. oh No no not at all if you need to grab another blanket or something by all means. No, I present the kids might see me. I'll be okay. be okay. I'll take it back. So I was in the pool involuntarily pushing and then they, I heard them say, Oh, I can see the purple line. You know, like the purple light you get like, so I knew that I was like getting very close. And then, um, she says to me, you might be able to start feeling different. different sensations now. And if you try and have a feel, might be able to feel your baby's head. And they had the little, um do they call it a crash cart where they've got like the little bed ready for when the baby comes out? I don't know what they call it. Is that a crash cart or not? don't know. uh No, it's probably, yeah, I don't know what they, what the technical name is, but like, yeah, like a little bed thing that they probably can have like oxygen and stuff connected to and stuff. Yeah. So they brought that in. So in my head I'm like, it's getting to the end, you know? And they're all thinking it. And then I felt inside and I couldn't feel anything. And then I looked at her and I was like, well, I can't feel anything. What am I meant to be feeling for? And she's like, you should be able to feel something hot. And I was like, I really, I can't feel anything. And then she's like, she looks so confused. And then she's like, you're going to hate this, but let's just get you out of the bed and check you between contractions. I think they're like a minute apart at this point. Yeah. Just to see what's going on. And then, yeah, like from that point on, was like everything that could have gone wrong went wrong. essentially I was nine and a bit centimeters dilated. The cervical lip hadn't fully come away and she was so far up. that yeah, like they likened it to when you put on a turtleneck and you're meant to tuck your chin in, but her head was like flexed back or something. Yeah. So then they're like, they put the gas on the highest and it was like everything in the room was spinning. There's a, guy who's like going to potentially give the epidural, there's the doctor, there's like the senior midwife, all that. And they're all trying to bargain with me to just have the epidural because like, I'm like, I don't want the epidural. don't want the epidural between like the rest time between each contraction. And then every time a contraction would come, I'm like, grabbing my husband's collar and like pulling him to the ground. Like the contractions were so intense. And then it was like five or six times. And then I was like, I think the midwife said you could be going like this for another four hours. And that's what did it for me. And I was like, just give me the epidural now. So the hope was that after the epidural, it would give my body some rest time and hopefully she'd move down that little bit more and then I could have a natural birth is how they said it. um And then yeah, I spiked a temperature. I had a really bad reaction to the epidural. So I was just like fully shaking. And I just felt so like defeated. I was laying in the bed on my side. My friend came in as a support person. So yeah, we must have been allowed to have an extra person because I do remember saying can you call Nat, who's my best friend? And she came to visit just as like a different face and like, she just held my hand, like there was nothing she could do. And for her, it was so confronting, like to see how the doctor was talking to me, cause then she, the doctor comes in and she's like, unfortunately your baby hasn't moved further down. You're still like nine centimeters dilated. and you've spiked a temperature so you potentially have an infection, we're gonna take you in for a caesar." And I was like, can I just have like five minutes to think about all of this? And then she's like, yeah, but if we don't do it now, your baby could be brain dead. Like that's what she said. And I was like, like, holy cow, like just no sensitivity to the situation or anything. It's wild. Molly, just to take like one step back, um like I'm not super confident with how you resolve this situation, but I imagine that there are some particular moves that you can do to try and resolve it. Were they getting you to like, you know, be upside down or like do crazy moves or anything like that. There was nothing of the sort and I think at that point I was just so checked out because it had been so many hours. hadn't slept the night before and then now I'm terrified that I'm going to go into the Caesar. And you babies could be brain dead. Yeah, it was like so horrible how she said it and she was... my goodness. So, no, in hindsight, like they didn't do a whole lot um in the labour to get her in the right position. They did have me leaning forward for a little bit, but it was kind of like, I think it's come to a point where in a lot of births, there's so much intervention that now it's like the midwives have gone the other way where they are completely hands off. but sometimes you do need that help. You do need someone to like maybe give suggestions. But yet I hadn't tried anything. So yeah, it's pretty hectic. And then a bit surreal being wheeled down into theater. My husband was so scared and wheeled him in. And I'm thinking like in hindsight, if it was that much of an emergency, like there would have been more urgency. It was still like another 20 minutes. path now for to me and take me in. So was it really that dire? Yeah, probably not. so during this time, so you, they've said, oh, like you might have an infection. Were they worried then? Obviously they've said something about baby being brain dead, but was, how was Nora, like, do you remember them saying anything about Nora's heart rate or how she was coping with the contractions or anything like that? think her heart rate was kind of starting to go a little bit up and down. So I think, yeah, it was that with a combination of I had also opted out of getting the antibiotics for is it strep B? Yeah, yeah, I tested positive, stupidly, even I got tested in the first place, because that caused a lot of issues, because my waters had broken at 5am. and now it's getting late and now... So they were all wound up about this whole thing that I was refusing the antibiotics. And so they really kept bringing that one up as well and saying, we really recommend that you have the antibiotics. You've also got a temperature. It was like, they were making me feel like I was putting my baby at risk because of that decision I made. But apparently it's very common to get a slight... spiking temperature after an epidural. Some people react in that way. Yeah, yeah, every drills, it's, yeah. And mean, even the shaking is quite common. And yeah, I mean, you kind of like, I suppose in some ways taking away one pain, but then giving yourself another pain because now you're like shaking uncontrollably. Yeah, which I was in so much pain, like my jaw and my shoulders and everything was so sore from just shaking uncontrollably. Yeah. Yeah. my gosh. um Yeah. Wow. And so was Nathan able to be with you during that time, like going like all the way through to the um theatre? So he was able to be with me, like walking to the theater and everything after he'd scrubbed up and everything. You got taken down and that was surreal because I arrived too early in the morning and it was dark and now it's dark again. Like he just showed how long I'd been there for. And yeah, I think he waited outside for like 20 minutes while they had me or they were prepping me in theater. And that was the worst part for him because they'd really made it sound like life or death. um But if someone had just come in and said, like, you've done everything you could and this is what's happening now, but it's okay, we probably would have been a lot less traumatized. But I think they made it sound worse than what it was. So yeah, he came in. And then I had in my head my plan for what I wanted if I had a C-section and it was like everything was refused. It was like, No option for music. Like it's like, no, we can't wait. Um, cord clamping was denied because I'd had this infection. And then I asked for skin to skin and they put a nappy on her when she was born and like burritoed her up and then put her on my chest. And I'm like, this is not skin to skin. they're all just talking about their day. Like it was just another day in the office for them. And there was just no like, um, care or sensitivity like I could see in the reflection what was happening and I was freaking out. And this midwife's just like, just avert your eyes. Like, just don't look. And I'm like, I can't not look because I can see, like I can see it. Like I, I want someone to move the lampshade so I can't see what's going on. So she was just like, I just kind of felt like they really downplayed how I was feeling. But for me it was like, I just felt like a piece of meat by the end of it. It was horrible. Like I, there was just no. Yeah. I guess they didn't honour the birth, I guess you could say. That's how I felt. Yeah. Yeah. Holy moly. Holy moly. And yeah, even to burrito Nora up and then, yeah, holy moly. What a wild situation concerning, you know, you're in the pool, you've got like the crib there, you're thinking I'm to be having my baby any minute. And then like the next minute, um you're being handed a burritoed baby and you're quite different. Wow. And I like even wanted the, I think they call it the golden hours. That was a plan of mine. But then they brought me into my room that I was staying in. And then I think it was 11 at that point, my husband gets sent home because it's after visiting hours. And I just put like a little gown over the top of me and my hair was like all sweaty and matted. I couldn't even get my hair off my face and tie it up. And they're like, okay, you try and get some rest now. And Nora was in this cot. I'm so thankful they've brought in a new kind of crib now for C-section mums where it attaches to the bed. But this was just before. So her cot is like up here and I'm down here lying flat. And it was just such a, like an awful experience. And then um went home after two or three days. And then I started having all these weird symptoms like body numbness and tingling and like just like completely blanking out, like couldn't remember stuff, just really weird things were happening. So then I got readmitted to the hospital and they ran like a bunch of tests and MRIs and all that. And I basically had like partial nerve damage to like where Nora was compressing on my nerves. Oh, yeah. majority of my labor. And then the neurologist came in and he said, you have a condition called FND, which is functional neurological disorder. And it's basically like your body hasn't been able to handle this huge event. So it was kind of like my body was wanting to disassociate and he's like, there's no QR and it could go on for a few months or it could be a few years. Wow. So like that whole first year was like, really really hard. Holy shit, Haley. Oh my god. it was like everything that could have gone wrong, went wrong. The only thing that went right was breastfeeding. And I was really determined to like, because I had a lot of issues with that, but yeah, it was like, I kept saying to myself, if I just make it to one year, like things are to be different, things will be better. Then it was her birthday party and I was like feeding her and I was like, I made it through that. Yeah. Holy shit. you're here four years later sharing the story on a podcast. That's incredible. Holy moly. Did you ever have the energy or feel inclined to provide feedback or a complaint about how you were treated and your experience? Yeah, so there was, I don't want to talk too much about all my bad experiences, um the aftercare nurse um was really quite harsh. there's been friends who have gone to the same hospital and they've had similar experiences with this nurse. So yeah, she had just said a few things that were just still in my mind to this day. I did have um a moment where I did write a complaint and then I got an email back or something. But it's like so many processes you have to go through to write this complaint. And I just wasn't in the space to do it. But I did write a whole thing when they did the was it the... Inquiry? Inquiry. So I did do that. But I really wanted to make a personal complaint about some of the stuff there. I just, like, I couldn't even write a text. That's how much my brain wasn't working. Like it was hard. Yeah. And by the time, I guess, I think this happens quite frequently with moms that have experienced birth traumas. You know, you, you kind of like have to push it down and away if you can, because now you've got a baby that you've got to care for and you can't like, you know, be like living in your own personal world of distress when you've actually got to be as present as you possibly can for this newborn who's like fully dependent on you. Um, That's horrible, Hayley. I am so sorry that you had like such a crap understatement experience and no wonder you were like, let's do something different for baby number two. So at what point were you thinking home birth? So publicly funded home birth wasn't an option. So I presume you sought out private midwives. Well in between Remy and Nora we actually moved to Newcastle. But I think I was considered high risk because I was a C-section. So I did in the end go with a private midwife. But... Yeah. There's so many hoops to jump through. But also, interestingly, when I got pregnant with Remy, or the lead up to us wanting another baby because we wanted our kids close together, in my mind, the only way that I could have a birth that could minimise any risk of trauma because I didn't know how my body was going to respond. had said to my husband, the only way I'm having another baby is if I have a planned cesarean. So when I got pregnant with Remy, I was connected with an OB, got all the way up to them giving the date for when they would deliver him. Wow. And then pulls out. actually pulled out. Because he was due Christmas day. And she was like my last choice of obstetricians that I wanted to see. And she said without like even much discussion, let's just do your CESAR 14th of December. And I'm like, buddy, it's due Christmas day. Like that's really early. And I just knew from that moment, like I walked out of that appointment. And I just felt so much discomfort because I'm like, it's still not in my hands. Like this woman has chosen when he's going to be born. I'm still, I'm not going to get what I want. So it was coming up to my second appointment where I would have had to pay like a large sum of money. So I really had to make my decision and was really having to be honest with myself, with what I wanted. And I was like, if I had no fear in the equation, what kind of birth would I want? and I think I want to have my baby at home. So I to my husband, this is going to sound crazy because I've taken you on a journey. I think I want to have a home birth. And he was like, I think this is the right decision. And he looked so he looked relieved. He's like, I don't want to see you go back into a hospital. I don't want to see you go through that again. ah So that's how I came to home birth with Remy. Wow. And so how many weeks roughly were you when you pulled out? Um, and so prior to that, it hadn't, I guess, I, I, from what I understand, that's like a common feeling. I mean, just in life in general as well, when, know, you've had that control taken, you know, you've had, you've felt on out of control and had no choice. then you try and swing it the complete other way by saying, okay, well, I'm going to make sure that I can control every aspect as I can. Um, so I think that's, that's yet. quite understandable, but yeah, wow. And so how did you go about finding a private midwife then? Um, so because I'd had so much trouble finding like an OB that aligns with my values because Remi's Jew are like Christmas day. My next thing is like, am I going to find a private midwife that is available Christmas day? But also I'm quite far along in my pregnancy because most people call their private midwife the minute they pee on a stick. And I'm like, I don't think I'm going to find anyone, but I'm trusting because I've made this choice and it feels right. I'm trusting the right person will come along. So after I broke up with my OB, which was like super anti-climatic, like she actually didn't even really care. And I really thought she was going to make a big thing out of it, but she didn't. Because there was a whole thing where she had to give her information to my home birth midwife. It's like a whole thing. ah Barely asked any questions. So I stressed myself out for nothing. I know. I've all the notes about me. So I just left it for a couple of weeks. think I was maybe like 11 or 12 weeks with Remy. And then I just had a few weeks where I was just like, I'm just going to sit with this decision that I've made and not stress about it. So then my friend who's a doula posted, um, starts from this home birth midwife and she'd had like 100 % success rate in the last three years with VBAC mums. was like very like a lot of her clients. um I think she had like two transfers or something like that was just really amazing stats and I read it and I was like I want this lady. I don't even know if she's in New South Wales like my friend's just posting these stats. Yeah going to go into this woman's page. I couldn't find where she was located or anything. And then I think I messaged her on Insta, briefly told her my story. She calls me up like 10 minutes after reading my message. um We have a little chat. Turns out she's like pretty local in the Newcastle area. And she's like, I have no doubt in my mind that you'll be able to achieve a natural birth. So I'm happy to take you on. I'm not available Christmas day, but I do have a backup midwife who's really lovely. So she was all good. So that's how I found Helen. It's amazing. And then it was just like the most chilled pregnancy ever. And like the experience of going through MGP where it's once a month, a very rushed half hour meeting. Of course, as your pregnancy goes on, your appointments become more frequent, but it's like half an hour and they're just checking like, your baby growing? Blah, blah. Like you don't have time to talk about your fears, your worries, all of it. And it was just so amazing to have Helen come over, get to know my whole family and just have like such trust that like she didn't see me as a risk. Just saw me as a fit, young, healthy woman who Maybe her baby just had bad positioning and he was like, it was so nice yet. And she'd come over to, I feel like the appointments went for ages, but yeah, it was just like such a nice difference from, yeah, MGP to private big life. Yeah. well, a lot more personable and like, you know, a private midwife can, you know, make up their own rules on like how long they spend and they can plan it at whatever weird hours, but like even in an M.G.P., like they're still working within the hospital's confines. Yeah. Gosh. Um, but that's yeah. Also so lucky that you were able to find a midwife like Christmas day. that. uh Pretty. my gosh. and did you do any work between like Nora and Remy like around that, trauma that you'd experienced? um So after Nora, I was seeing a birth trauma counselor for quite a long time. And then with Remy, I would say that my preparation for birth wasn't so much physical, it was definitely more mental. So I did really do my visualizations and my journaling and tried to consume positive birth content. Like was always trying to find an experience where someone had a redeemable birth, I guess. Yeah, like that was my way of working through things. um But yeah, I felt a lot of peace throughout it. It was like the moment I detached myself from like the hospital and having to go down that path, that fear was taken away because I wasn't going to have to prep myself to step through those doors again. Also, thought, but that's We'll get to that later. m So at this point you didn't, you felt so... I guess, correct me if I'm wrong, you felt so confident and also the midwife seemed to have a lot of confidence in you and your body that, you know, this time, second time around, you could really do it at home. um Did Nathan have any fears that popped up? I mean, he was obviously like, yeah, cool, let's do the home birth. But did he have anything that like, you know, you remember talking about being like, oh, I don't really know or? um I think he, if he had fears, he didn't share them. No, he seemed pretty confident in the situation as well. think we just felt really cared for by Helen. And I think that's what made us feel calm and like felt like it was a safe decision. She had spoken to us a lot about um uterine rupture and um Yeah, really got into depth with that. So like all of those fears were eliminated. Um, but yeah, I wouldn't say he had any fears. I think his biggest fear was having a care provider that didn't respect my autonomy. think that was his biggest fear. Yeah, yeah, preach. Exactly. That should be everybody's fear. did you, so you said that you had like a doula friend, were you having extra people like, like on this journey? Like was Nora, were you thinking that Nora would be present at the birth or? Um, so I was really private about my choice for home birth, so just my family knew. Um, and then I had a close friend who had had a home birth. so yeah, I think I just wanted it, it was going to be Helen and then her backup midwife plus Nathan. So I felt like there was going to be enough people and if the last birth was anything to go by, like, I didn't want too many people in that space. But we did have Abby, um who's my friend who had a home birth. She was also starting to be a doula, but she's kind of like an auntie to my kids as well. Or I had one kid at the time. So she was on call in case things happened. Yeah. So that was my support. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so what was the lead up to Labour like? Very interesting. So I think I really learned that no two births or pregnancies are the same. um they always say that, but it's so true. So we have an Sorry, how many weeks were you with Nora when you started the game? 39 and three days. Cool. Um, so I just assumed Remy would come early as well, especially because he's my second too. And my mum had gone early with all of hers, I'm pretty sure. Um, so yeah, I was really counting on, he's coming before Christmas. So then it was something like 37 weeks and three days. It's kind of just before the cutoff where it's Or maybe it was like 36 and four days. It was kind of like, it's not appropriate to have a home birth. but you can sign a wait but I think I was like two days off because I think from 37 weeks onwards is fine. So something like that. 39 and three days I want to say. I come home and then I lost some of my mucus plug. And I was like, oh shit, like this is early. I don't know if I'm ready yet. That was my first instant thought. So then did the classic send a photo to my midwife. What do you think this is? She's like calling me about like, have to sign a waiver if I still want to have a home birth and told me all the risks that come with having him at home if he was to come this early. And then she's like, do you have your pool set up? And I was like, no, cause we hadn't gotten the little connector to like connect the host to the tap and like all of these other little annoying stuff. And then Bunnings is going to close in like half an hour. So I'm calling Nathan and I'm like, This could be happening because Helen's like, you could have a baby tomorrow. So you need to get yourself sorted. Uh, my husband's rushing around trying to set everything up. We've got the pool set up. I'm like, I didn't feel any contractions though until maybe like 11 o'clock at night. So from 11 till something like three or four in the morning, it was very mild contractions and they were like five minutes apart. And then they fizzled out. So I'm like, okay, it's just the pregame. Like he's coming. Tomorrow. then the next day we had a really nice day, like we did all my favorite stuff. Went to eat noodles, had ice cream, walked around town. Like it was a really nice day. It was going to be like the last day before baby came. Also we thought, wasn't the case at all. And then again, it's 11 o'clock and they start again and then they fizzle out. So this went on for like a week. uh I'm like doing all the stuff like swimming, relaxing, going for walks. And then it's like, Helen comes over to visit, chatting with me, do you have any fears you need to work through? Sometimes your body is like responding to holding on fears. So I really worked through all that. And then it's two weeks later, it was like most nights, same time. So I'm like, Then I start reading about this thing called pro-domal labour, I think it's called. I feel like this is what it is. a tens machine that my friend had found for me, like everything set up, we've got a pool. But the annoying thing is, is that we haven't told a lot of our friends. So we had to be really weird about like, it's getting close to Christmas and I'm pregnant and people want to drop stuff off. We usually invite people into our home. We had to be like, Oh, we're out. Just drop it out the front. Cause we don't want you to see the pool in our tiny house. I hope have done this. This was so small, we could only fit it in the lounge room. Couldn't fit it anywhere else. I'm pretty sure we got, or we moved the dining table, like it was really obvious. We couldn't hide it. Then there's a point where Nathan's in-laws, my in-laws, Nathan's parents want to come over. I'm like, you have to pull the pool down, like, and then you have to blow it back up straight after they've gone. Cause this baby could come at any moment. It was such a thing. But we did get sprung, we had some friends come over, we were- we actually pulled up in the driveway and they're standing on our balcony and we're like, she- the pool is in the lounge room. They come into the house and I'm like, yeah, so you know how I said I'm having this baby at John Hunter? I'm actually not, I'm having a home birth. And they're like, okay, yeah, cool. Like you could see, I was so shocked. That was so funny. Yeah. And then it's like three weeks of like this on and off labor. weeks. It was three weeks. I honestly thought by the last week we had, I was so angry. There's no aircon in our house, our old house. It was so hot, hottest summer ever. I felt like I was going to be pregnant forever. I honestly did. I thought this was weeks of prodromal labor, that's cruel. And that's so unfair as well because like with um Nora, it was like quite predictable really what happened. you you got like, you got so f***ed. Then you got three weeks of... my gosh. It was such a mind game. was such a mind game. There was one really windy stormy night and I was like, hey, the storm is going to charge this labor. I was like, we need to drive down to the beach. We're going for a walk. And I like walked along the break wall and Nathan and Nora it's like eight o'clock at night and the winds like and the rain. I need to this baby. No baby. No baby. Tried everything. tried everything. So then Christmas day comes, he still hadn't arrived. I just couldn't believe it. And then finally on the 27th of December, I was like, I tried everything, but I'm going to try child's pose. I don't know why I thought that. And I put these pillows under me. did child's pose, went to sleep in that position, maybe for like 40 minutes. It was like a pop and the water just broke. Cause I said to Nathan, I'm not going to believe I'm in labor until this baby's head is like coming out of my vagina. He's just really having me on right now. My water's broke. I'm like, okay. So come out to Nathan. Nathan, water's broke. I'm in labor. Finally, Midlife. And she's like, okay, finally. Cause she's been waiting too. She's been waiting for three weeks. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And remember the OB wanted to book you in like on the 14th. So Remy's had like basically, you know, is it like almost two extra weeks? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. It's okay. Just give the maths good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. uh That's just not my strength. Neither. It felt like an extra three weeks. yeah, it was crazy. was crazy. uh at this point, so Helen, so she couldn't do Christmas Day, but she's back. She can back it. She's back in the game on the 27th. oh 26, like she just had the one Christmas date off and then yeah. So then called her and then I said to Nick, my contractions are two minutes apart. So it was really strong from the start. Cause he'd done a lot of prep, you know, you'd want him to be efficient. Be efficient now. Yes. And then she's like, okay, I'm leaving. Cause I think she was 40 minutes away. She said, I'm leaving right now, but call me if your contractions get closer together. And then I think it was like half an hour later, Nathan calls again. Her contractions are one minute apart. It was go time. It was go time. ah She comes in. It was so special. I didn't have to go anywhere. Fairy lights, little pool set up, my headphones on. Nora asleep. She was still a terrible sleeper at that point. But she was asleep for a little bit. Helen comes in really quietly and then Yeah, they just let me do my thing. And then Rhiannon arrived shortly after. And then I think it was like, so that was, I would, I want to say 11.30 at night. I'm an interlabor. I think by one o'clock I was in the pool. Pretty sure. Yeah. And then I was on all fours at that point, like vocalizing quite a bit. So like things were moving along quite fast. And then... Yeah, it was like similar kind of thing, like just kind of chugging along and then Helen starts going like, you know, it's been a while, how about we try some different moves? Um, so they tried some squats and then tried the birth sling, tried the toilet. Then it was getting to daytime. Wow. So in my head I'm like, please don't let this happen again. Yeah. And then they did some acupressure and it was like so intense. Like I always forget how intense it is and then you're back in it and you're like, it's a lot. So it was like all consuming. I was also doing it with no pain relief either. Yeah. And I think it was like probably seven o'clock or something. I think I felt it myself that maybe things weren't going to plan and cause we had just tried everything they tried. um like he just wasn't moving down quite far enough, but I was like, obviously involuntarily pushing my body felt like it was ready, maybe similar thing with Noah. And then I said to Nathan, but I don't remember saying it, but apparently I had said to Nate, I think it's time to call Abby cause we were going to call Abby if things didn't go to plan. So that was hours before. I got in the ambulance and um, so she came in and she took over with Nora, because Nora had woken up at like two in the morning and she still hadn't gone back to sleep. Oh, So she was there for the birth. was, um, like, she's such a sensitive little kid, but she was so like calm and just like watching me intently and wasn't freaked out at all. She'd met Helen. So she was fine. and then, yeah, I, I think, yeah, I was doing, I was pushing quite hard and then finally they could see the head. I think at this point, no, they had tried everything and they said, we don't want to do this, but we've exhausted all our options. And like, he just needs to calm down that little bit more. Um, but we're going to suggest you laying down and doing knees to chest like But we don't want to do it. It's not ideal, but we want to try everything. Yeah. So did that. And then I think we could start to see the top of his head. That's how close I was. And it was just like that for ages. And I remember thinking in my head, this is not like, even if I have this baby at home, it's not going to be the birth that I wanted. I was so uncomfortable. Like I just felt so vulnerable. It just wasn't going how I wanted it to. And I said a couple of times, just take me to the hospital. But obviously they wanted the best for me. And they knew how much I wanted a home birth. And so they were like, just like a big cheer team, Nathan, Helen, Rhiannon. And then I think it was getting to around 11 o'clock maybe. His heart rate had dropped twice within two contractions. and then everything changed. Like I don't want to say it was alarming but they were very calm about it but they just said we're just gonna call the ambulance because you've been going for so long. We've tried absolutely everything like squats, all their crazy maneuvers they make you do. There's one where I was like on the bed and my legs were off the bed. Yeah. And they were, I don't know. Toilet, which is like absolute hell but I did it. acupressure, like everything you can imagine. And they're like, if this baby wanted to come out, he'd come out and now his heart rate's dropping. So they called the ambulance, they came pretty quick and there's like four paramedics in the house now. I'm on the ground and they're like, um, so yeah, you're having a baby. Um, like obviously you need a birth transfer. Like you just get up slowly when you're ready. And so I got up. My midwife's like, where's your hospital bag? I was like, I don't have one. She's like, what do mean you don't have one? Grabs like a towel out of the cupboard. I'm like, not wearing anything other than this towel. Say goodbye to Nora and Abby. Nathan doesn't know what to do with himself. Like he doesn't know what to get. The midwife's like, I'm pretty sure it's going to be a four steps delivery. Like you want to be right behind the amboes because as soon as she gets there, they're going to be delivering this baby. That's what she thought. And Nathan's like, doesn't even know what to do with himself. And then I had like 15 stairs from like the top of my house down to the driveway. So much opportunity, Remy! You're gonna hate this but you're have to just get down those stairs between contractions. I don't know how I did it. I think in my head I'm like, as soon as I get to the hospital I'm gonna have pain relief. Like that was my motive at that point. Because I know that like people talk about birth not being painful just being a lot of pressure and I think that's if everything's going right. But when your baby is not in a prime position, like terrible. even like, my, my first story is like their birth bit was not so nice. Um, but I, yeah, I don't really remember. I wouldn't really call it pain in that first labor, but with Frankie, everything was going fine. It was the most excruciating feeling ever. So I think like, if you, if you have a painless labor, like I'm really happy for you. It's not for all of us. Bella's been telling me about all these women who have breezed out their babies in the pool. Hate me. so f***ing This is too much for me. ah And so even with all of this like disruption of like the four paramedics and having to leave your safe space and all of the whatever, did, did you happen to notice if your contractions slowed down? Like, do you remember there being any like contractions? They were just. And fast. I thought like, yeah, so I went from the top of the stairs down. I don't know how I did it. My friends are gonna run out soon, so I'll have to get my charger in a second. Yeah, that's okay. But I said to the Ambows, please can you give me pain relief? And the girl stupidly said, I will give you a green stick. But I did not get a green stick. And I was really mad about that. and they made me lie down in this little stretcher on my back and the whole time I was screaming at them I honestly thought I could feel his head so far down and I'm like this baby's gonna come out of me in the ambulance like that's how intense the pressure was so wild and I'm and I could not be on my back I'm like trying to be on my side like it was so intense yeah I think it's something like a four hour Oh, four hours? Gosh, four minutes. It felt like four hours. Very long ambulance ride, I think. It felt like four hours. Four minutes! Thank god it wasn't four hours. like, Helen was looking at me, she's like so calm, but she looked like devastated for me. And I was just like, I'm just so thankful that you've been here for this whole thing. So was she able to go in the ambulance with you? Yes. But part of her um contract was she doesn't attend a hospital birth. That's just her personal choice because her way of thinking is if I've handed them over, means I've extended my care. Like I can't give them any more. So I already knew that she wouldn't be able to stay until she'd be going once Nathan arrived. So it's like so shocking to go from being at home the comfort of your own home, fairy lights, music, all the things. To then being in an ambulance and then them wheeling me down the public corridor on a stretcher to go into the lift to go up to the maternity ward. There was so many people just looking at me and I'm like screaming in pain. That was before I got wheeled into the elevator. There was this couple and this girl made eye contact with me and she looked horrified. Like I swear she's like, I'm having a baby. There's like this thing on like social media and it's like this girl with a list and like people like, you know, complaining about how tough things are with kids or, know, if you have a really shit day or your kids did something really wild and like totally, you know, not, not cool. And it's like this thing like add that to the list, add that to the lady that doesn't want to have kids list. oh way she looked at me was like, my gosh, you're going through this thing. Glad I'm not you. They pushed me into the elevator and then there's three people from the public in the elevator just staring at me and I was like, get up right now. And they're just looking at me. was like, get up right now. I'm having a baby. I don't want you looking at me. And they all just left the elevator. And the paramedics like, I was thinking the same love. I love your assertiveness. my big guys, read the room! She's in labor, she's with the- You don't want to be here for this. We follow each other. And I was also thinking what if they press a button on the floor before me I have to wait longer. That's actually a really shit plan. I don't know why they took me that way, was so vulnerable, I was more vulnerable than you could, like the most vulnerable you could be. It was such a difference. I've just been at home and now I'm fully in public going up this public elevator. Oh my God. Heck. Yeah, but I can just imagine. my gosh, that's horrible. Oh my gosh. And so, so you said goodbye to Helen. So the paramedics... Oh, is Helen still in this elevator? Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then they took me up and they're like planning on forceps delivery. Okay. But they have to take you through all the processes of like, this is all the risks. And then I was like, I can send to everything. I can send to everything. Just get this baby out of me. And the guy's so calm. I know, I know that's what you're saying, but I still have to take you through all of this. Oh my god. It was so... I felt like that process was so long. And then at this point Nathan came, like that's how intense it was. I don't even remember the swap over from Helen to Nathan. Helen was there and now it's Nathan. I don't even know what's going on. Matched into one at this point. It was so intense. And then they like, um, took me through all the risks with that. And then, um, I, I had the spinal block. I swear I had that before the forceps. I'm almost certain I did. So by that stage I can think straight. I'm like, pain is gone. And then I was like, started trying to consciously regulate myself. So they bring in this guy. called Alpha, that was his name. The biggest buffers guy you could imagine and they're like, so if Alpha can't do this, this baby's stuck, like it's gonna have to be cesarean. This is so funny! It is funny, it's funny. Why was his name Alpha? I don't know. And they're like, it's our top guy Alpha. He's gonna get his baby out. And if he can't, we've done everything. That was certainly the most unpleasant part. And they tried twice. Because they tried making me work with my contractions, but I can't feel anything. I'm just gonna get my charger. uh That's okay. I did, right? So Alpha, he's given his- he's given- He brought in the big guns. I'm kind of wondering if you hallucinated that his name was Alpha. Maybe I did, maybe I did. I swear his name was Alpha. Um, okay. So, so at this point, are you thinking C-section is on the cards again or? I think I wanted it to be a C-section. uh yeah. Because it was like, it's weird. I think I've spoken to my friend about this because she's uh studying to be a midwife. And she talks often about how she sees women get episiotomies. And it's like a horrible thing that she's like when she sees it, she's like, I'd rather watch 20 C-sections. over in a pesiotomy any day and I think it's because it is such an intimate part of your body and they're going in with like whether it's pesiotomy or forceps or vacuum. The alpha's in there. Yeah, exactly. It's like, I didn't want him to be born this way. And I'm so glad in a weird way, because C-sections are full on. In a weird way, I'm glad that he wasn't born via forceps. So I think, yeah, they were trying to get me to push, but I couldn't feel anything. Yeah, so I'd had the spinal block and couldn't feel a thing. And they tried twice and they're like, we can't. get to him. we're going to prep you for C-section. And that moment for me, I will also add all of the midwives there were absolute angels. And apparently, this is what Helen said is when they get the call for a home birth transfer, they try to make a team of people who are that way inclined. I guess. So there was just no judgment that I was this home birth mum who'd been transferred. Especially like for a V back as well, like there's probably going to be a bit of judgment around that. they were just like, it was like the best group of midwives you could imagine. So yeah, they prepped me for the C-section and I had this moment of I could let myself start spiralling. like I did with Nora and feel out of control. Or just like, take a moment. I've been through this before. It's gonna be okay. It's different. And I just like, it was like all my hard work, even though it didn't result in a natural birth at home, it still paid off because I was able to regulate myself in that moment. So it was like the chaos had gone. I'm going in for a Caesar. Everything was calm. And thankfully, Helen had said before I'd had been willed in for the attempted forceps slash c-section, she made sure to say, because I was like, on the highest gas. So I wasn't thinking straight. And she said, she wants delayed cord climbing. She wants skin to skin. She wants her own music. And then she said, I think she like said some other things as well to them anyway. So I was like, Oh, I hadn't even thought of that. And I'm so thankful she was there to say that. So, oh, no, that's what she said. Is there anything else you want? And I said, I don't want anyone talking while he's being born. Like, I just want it to be silent. I don't want to hear about anyone's day. uh All the sport or whatever they're talking about. And they had um noted that down. So then I get really, and I really can't. was like, Nathan, you've done this before. Like, I'm really excited to meet him. Like, the worst is over. I'm not feeling these contractions. And then Nathan had music playing next to my ear. It was so quiet. And then they said, it was like the weirdest feeling of peace. I've never experienced that in my life. And like, it always felt spiritual. And they said, do you want the curtain down? And with Nora, I had the curtain off. I didn't want to know what was going on. I didn't even want photos of her being cut out. I only have photos of her on my chest. And they're like, do you want the curtain down? And I nearly said no, but I was like, you know what? I want the curtain down. So I had the curtain down, music playing, complete silence. And then they pulled him out and then put him on my chest. And it was like... So special, it was so special. And it wasn't like filled with fear or like overwhelmed. I think I only lost like 200 mils of blood as well. Which was quite small. I think Nora was a fair amount more. So I obviously had felt calm. And yeah, it was like straight up skin to skin, not even a nappy. I think he had a little blanket over him because it's so cold in those rooms. yeah. And then they willed me out into recovery. And then I hadn't even thought of this, but then my placenta, or this lady comes up, she was a midwife in training. She's like, do you want a placenta tour? And I was like, yes, I do. Because with Norris, I didn't even get to see the placenta. And I was like, weirdly upset about it. Well, some people might not get it. But to me, I'm like, I wanted to see it and I wanted to like, witness what my body had grown. so she comes in with my placenta on this little table and my mum was there at that point. So my mum lives about two hours away. So she came flying down. I don't even know how she got there. She obviously drove a little bit fast to get there and um, Yeah, she was there. Nathan was there. um It was midday. So like there were so many things that were different about it to Nora's birth as well. Different time of year. was like all these little things just made it this completely different experience. And then, yeah, she showed me my placenta. My mom thought it was so cool. She's like, Nathan was like a bit weirded out by it. That's the only thing he couldn't get his head around. She's like, cool. And then um brought me into my ward where I was staying. And again, like so different in so many ways. So Abby came shortly after with Nora. So Nora didn't miss out on a whole lot. um And like Nora was so gentle and like she just laid next to me, cuddled up to me. I have the most precious picture of her just looking at him. Yep. and Remy was feeding at that point and then my friend Nat came so Nat works... this is another crazy thing. the one that came Nora? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so this is pretty crazy. Like in my pregnancy, obviously, like not for everyone, but private midwife was expensive for us. And so I didn't have a lot of money left over to like go towards food and like postpartum services and that. And I had been looking at this website, Meals for Mamas, and then looked at the prices and I was like, it's just not in my budget right now. And then my friend Nat, this was like way early in my pregnancy, Nat messages me and she's like, hey, so I got this new job and it's a postpartum meal service and I want to gift you four weeks worth of meals. And she sent me the link. It was meals for mommas. And I was like, I was like, yeah, I just knew everything was going to be okay with Remy, just little things like that. So Nat came in with this box of delicious food. So much better than like a chocolate pudding from the... wherever they get those... like that's your first thing they give you when you're in recovery. I've missed the point completely. Yeah. Although it does taste amazing after a marathon. yeah, she came in with like soups and drinks and yeah, it was, I just felt like a queen. then that maybe it's on my chest, Doris is what on my mom's there. Now it comes in big box of food. And then that's like, do you want me to braid your hair? Or I think I asked her. So she'd like, braided my hair so it all out of my face. And then my mom like washed me down. The midwife said, do you want your mom to do it or do you want me to do it? And my mom just very gently like washed me down. Like I just felt so held. was just so different. Like to Nora, it was like not a care in the world that they had for me. But then it was like all my friends coming around and. It was so amazing. then, so they were there for quite a few hours because that was around midday. And then I think it was around maybe eight o'clock, mum left. And they thankfully had the new co-sleeper cot. So if you're a C-section mum, you can see them and they're right there. I put my headphones on, put my eye mask on, my head on Remy. And then the little angel slept from like 8 o'clock to 5 o'clock in the morning. It crazy. because Nora was very wakeful since birth and was still waking up quite a lot at that point. So it was probably the best sleep I'd had in a long time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh my goodness. And then the next day, because I could already feel myself kind of spiraling because I'm in the hospital setting and I was sharing with another room and I could just hear things that just weren't sitting right with me from other midwives. Anyway, I then said to them, what do I have to do to get out of here? And they're like, Well, you have to pee a certain amount of times in a certain amount of hours. Yeah. And I did that and I was discharged 26 hours per C-section, is worst badass thing I've ever done. But obviously I felt mentally okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Wow. Rebi's story. my gosh. think you like the way that you described you going into theater. I mean, it's kind of like a movie because like. You know, I can just I can just visualize it so clearly like in. I just can't even imagine. So close, like so, so freaking close. like I can see his head. going down those 15 stairs and then in the ambulance and then the weirdness of the elevator and then alpha. Then all of that. And then just being wheeled into theatre and like such a different experience, Nora. And I mean, even like the fact that they, you know, gather around the staff that, you know, might, you know, have interest in being along at this birth. I think, I mean, like every birth should obviously, every woman deserves to feel like it is a special day. You know, it is the birth of the baby. once it's born, it's born. can't, there's no, like, you can't change it. And I mean, I... think it goes without saying really how outrageous that experience is with Nora. But like with Remy, like imagine you're the midwife and you have like some sort of empathy or sympathy to home birthers and whatnot. And a mom, if they've had time to, I don't know, check notes or they have some, you know, knowledge about Nora's birth and how shit that was. And then you're receiving that mom. in the hospital who's come in and is now going to have to have another C-section. I just can't even imagine how, like, if that was me, I too would be like, fuck, let's give this woman the most brilliant experience that we can possibly give her because like, I mean, everyone deserves it, but like, you really deserve that. my gosh. And I mean, the reality is, and that's why I am so glad that you're sharing your story and you know, all of the other moms that have shared transfer stories and all of the moms that will share transfer stories do because like sometimes transfer happens and like, you know, I mean, Nora, you could pull that apart in a bazillion different ways, but the fact is it ended in C-section and that's, that's just how it is. But with Remy, like, it sounds like they tried every trick in the fricking book. Yeah, you go. I was going to say my midwife said he was the most physically draining birth they had attended in a really long time because I really gave him a workout. Like, they really tried everything. Yeah. Um, and like that's, yeah, I mean, I, um, I've said it before and I'll say it again, like we do need hospitals. Choosing home birth doesn't mean you're, you're completely like, well, completely a hundred percent no hospital ever. The hospital is for when things are not going right. Therefore sickness, therefore, you know, when there's problems and if a baby is not coming after all of that time and you're in such, I mean, one minute contractions, like contractions every one minute. Being so painful. Like your body can't like handle that. your body's not, your body is designed to give birth, but it's, it's not designed to handle that. And if baby and your body aren't lining up, like that's, you know, life's crazy. Yeah. But I'm so. Yeah, well, that um image of you going into the room and the music and all of that, like that's, yes, so beautiful. um Yeah. What was your recovery like with Remi, like physically and breastfeeding and even mentally, like even now, like a year and a half later? Yeah. I just had a memory of like, just after he was born and they took a photo of me and him and I have the biggest smile on my face. But even after that whole ordeal. But then with Nora, I'm like pasty white and like eyes closed and like not even in the room. So yeah. But my recovery, well, I think it goes without saying I felt okay because I got myself discharged, went home. I think like the first week was really hard. I couldn't sit up in bed without assistance. But yeah, I wasn't overthinking the birth so much like I was with Nora. Like with Nora from that first night, I was thinking, where did I go wrong? What could I have done? And just obsessing over it for like, I would say the first year. And then I had to get to a point where I was like, that happened and I can't change it. And I know within myself, I did everything. Like the most hurtful thing the midwife said after Nora was she's like, it's called failure to progress. And that's why it just didn't work out. And it's like those words that get said to you in those early hours or days or weeks after they stick with you because I took that on as it was me and I failed. Yeah. But I think with Remi, just like those first hours of just like everyone coming around to me and being like, you're a badass and you did that and you're amazing. I had that gave me the strength. then, yeah, like I would say physically, like it was quite a lot of pain. Like I had a lot of pelvic floor issues and I would say that was because of the pushing for so long, followed by forceps, I think. From Alpha. Like that was incredibly painful oh afterwards and for like, I still have slight issues now, but yeah, like mentally I was kind of just waiting for the ball to drop and was just waiting for this high to like, for me to get off this high that I'd had this, what I thought was a healing birth, but I just never came. Like I'm still high about it I'm still like, that happened and Like it's a cool story and it was so special. Yeah. So yeah, my recovery breastfeeding was, I mean, I've had a few issues with my kids in the early days, but I didn't have any major issues. Like, not so much like with Nora, I had issues for like the first two or three months. Yeah. but with Remy, like nothing significant, um, just had a few bouts of mastitis, but He's a little chunk. put on like 400 grams in the first two weeks, which is crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Well, um, I'm so grateful for you to share sharing this story. Um, it's a fantastic story. You are 1000 % a badass. mean, that sounds very exhausting and like, just, mean, what you've been through and for you, yeah, like I said, like who would have thought that, you know, four years later you'd be on a podcast retelling. both stories. Yeah. That's fantastic. Is there anything that you haven't talked about that you feel like is important to mention that was like a part of your story or anything that you would like other trends like home birth transfer moms to know or any anything like that? um I think that I love that home birth is becoming a more popular option and more women are taking ah or using that as their care provider but I do think that it's important to remember that home birth has a spectrum and it's not always like the woman blissfully birthing in their lounge room and sometimes in the spectrum that is home birth, it is a transfer. But if you're a home birth transfer mum, it doesn't make your birth any less sacred or special. And yeah, I'm just giving all the transfer mums a big hug because I know it's such a hard thing. Like when I had home birth transfer, there was like hardly any podcasts or stories out there that I could resonate with. And yeah, I'm just really glad that you're giving women a space to share their stories in that. And I one other thing. If you are considering a private midwife and it does, you know, go down the home birth transfer route, I think that it's not like, it's not a loss because that continuity of care is so um important in even your recovery afterwards. Like the care you're going to get throughout your pregnancy and the care you're going to get after, it's like how you birth doesn't really matter how it ends up. that continuity of care is so valuable, however your birth might turn out. So if you're considering having a private midwife, yeah, it's like the care is second to none. That's all I'm gonna say. 100%. I think that's a very valuable thought. um I mean, I could say so much more, but I'm going to leave it there. But thank you so, so, so much, Hayley. Awesome, thank you.