Two homebirths and two different experiences - PFHB & private midwifery, episiotomy, waterbirth || Amy's birth of Ezra (2021) & Ryder (2024) at home (Queensland)

Episode 67 is shared by Amy who lives on Gubbi Gubbi country in Queensland. Amy shares her two homebirth stories, which includes one in a publicly funded hospital homebirth program and then her second with a private midwife. We chat about her experiences with both models, her episiotomy  and then her fear around tearing, her desire for a water birth and so much more. 

Please make sure to share this episode or any others you’ve listened to, whether it’s wth friends, or on social media, or leaving a rating or review. 

All of it helps to get the word out there that homebirth is an option! 

Resources:

• Free Antenatal Classes from Core Floor Restore 
• Dr Andrew Bisits 
  • One-on-one midwife care linked to lower risk of premature birth
  • Australia's breech baby whisperer (ABC)
  • Intrapartum CTG monitoring in breech presentation
• Birth Time: The Documentary 
• Catherine Bell - Birth Map
• Lael Stone
• Birth is Magic Kids Book for Homebirth

Transcript

0:02

Welcome to Birthing at Home, a podcast. I'm Elsie, host. I'm a home birth mom of two little boys, a doula in Melbourne supporting birth at home. I'm a mental health nurse and the co-creator of Home Birth Victoria. If you want to learn more about me, the podcast, or my work, check out www.birthingathome.com.au. Before we begin, I would like to acknowledge the Wurundjeri people who are the traditional custodians of the land I'm recording on in Ngaam, Melbourne, Australia. I would also like to acknowledge the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples have been birthing at home on country for tens of thousands of years prior to the British invasion and acknowledge that sovereignty has never been ceded. Episode 67 is shared by Amy, who lives on Gobi Gobi country in Queensland. Amy shares her two home birth stories, which includes one in a publicly funded hospital home birth program and then a second with a private midwife. We chat about her experiences with both models. her apesiotomy and then her fear around tearing, her desire for a water birth and so much more. Please make sure to share this episode or any others that you've listened to, whether it's with friends or on social media. I love seeing the comments on Facebook groups or leaving a rating or review. All of it helps to get the word out there that home birth is an option. Enjoy. Welcome Amy to Birthing at Home, a podcast. Thanks Elsie, it's really, it's an honor to be here. super excited. Yeah, thank you for joining me last minute. I really, really appreciate taking your time on a Wednesday morning. It feels so good for me to record without having to worry about kids screaming in the background or you know, whatever. So I'm really happy to be here. Are you able to start off by telling the listeners a little bit about who you are, who's in your family, where you're located? Sure, so I before I start I'd like to acknowledge I'm on Gubbi Gubbi Country up on the Sunshine Coast. I've been here for about a year. I did grow up here but have been away for about 15 years and have come back and I have been Sydney, Melbourne, went overseas for a little bit, come back home. and I have two beautiful boys. got a four year old Ezra and a 10 month old Radha and my husband Andrew as well who's from up here too. Yeah, cool. And so you are sharing today the home birth stories of both Ezra and Ryder. And we were sort of having a bit of a chat before we were recording about how you found home birth. So you weren't planning our home birth initially with Ezra. But do you remember the first time you heard about home birth? Or do you remember prior to, you know, being pregnant with Ezra? knowing much about birthing at home. No, and if I'm honest, like the first meeting I had with a midwife, so I went through um the public hospital in Redwick and I got into the MGP program. So I knew a few friends who had gone through that program and had a really positive experience. So I tried to get into that and I actually didn't get in, but then I got a last minute call up. when I was about 14 weeks pregnant, I think. And when I had my first appointment, I said, like they asked what my, you know, did I have any, did I have a birth plan and like all of those things. I was like, oh, I'm just going to go with the flow. I now know that that's like not a great way to approach it, but I actually, the only, I was reflecting on this yesterday when I was 21 and I worked at a hippie store in St. Kilda. One of my colleagues had a baby and she had a water birth and she was explaining it to me and I'm like, that sounds amazing. Like I want to do that one day. And so that was the only ideal thing I had about birth was I'd like a water birth and she talked about the birthing centers and things like that. So that was it. And it was actually my midwife at the hospital when we were talking about different things, he said, He actually mentioned in our first appointment, have you thought about a home birth? Anyway, I was like, oh, I've never done this before. I live in a rental apartment in Sydney. And I just, I thought, oh, look, maybe, but not this, not for my first. I wanted the safety of being in a birthing center. So was close to the hospital, all of that kind of stuff. And he said to me, um Everyone lives in a rental apartment in Sydney. So don't let that... And he was really encouraging, which I thought was really great because he did work in, now I know what I know, like he worked in the public hospital and things, but he really, I guess, challenged the system whilst working within the system. And yeah, encouraged me to be open to it. He said, you're a really great candidate for a low risk pregnancy. I was 30 at the time. How old am I now? And Yeah, so and I guess my I wanted a natural birth, which you most people do. But yeah, so was like, okay. And I flagged it with Andrew when I got home from my appointment. And he was like, his first question was, what about the man? uh And if you know Andrew, he's like so clean and tidy. Yeah, it's just about you like blood smears and poo and water. He was pretty apprehensive but he wasn't like no he was like oh like how's that gonna work? Anyway I was like look I don't think for this time but um it got me thinking. Yeah. And so 14 weeks, you said was with your with that midwife. Yes. Yeah. And so we were saying before we recorded, so Ezra was born in August 2020. Yes, pretty much halfway through my pregnancy was when COVID......the lockdown and everything was a mess. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That experience really influenced, I guess I've always been someone so I'm a social worker, I in community mental health, suicide prevention. Cool, yeah, But we have a very similar job. There you go. And I guess I like I'm I love research. I love learning about different things and and making informed decisions. Yeah. And I guess I went down. hadn't really done that with birth before. But I think so all of the normal offerings around workshops and, you know, antenatal classes and things were closed down through the hospital. Yeah, so women were left to, we're left to our own devices really. Force out information. And that ended up being a positive for me. I joined a Facebook group that was for like pregnant women 2020. I think her name is Peter, the woman she's based in Brisbane. And she's And so this was a just to clarify because I was also a part of these one of these random groups, but it was actually associated with home, but the home birth group Australia on Facebook. So this particular group that you were a part of was completely separate from home birth. Yeah. It wasn't about, yeah, it was just about supporting women because all of the generic supports that were available were no longer available. Yeah, yeah, and she organized different people to do like a Facebook live on different topics. Like there was one on baby wearing and all different things. And I watched one with B from Coram for Restore and that just really resonated with me, just her way of viewing the world, her passion for research and things and evidence-based stuff and I just, like, it was just really refreshing to hear someone. I guess I'd like seen a little bit just through the page around home births and things, but it like, I feel like Bea's approach was like, no, like the evidence shows how like safe it is, how it's actually like the best, like the best place for a woman to birth is where she feels safe. Continuity of care and like it all just made a lot of sense. And so then I watched her, she was doing Facebook lives. throughout COVID, free antenatal classes, and my husband and I watched them and I just felt, it just completely changed how I was viewing my birth. Like I was no longer go with the flow. was actually like, no, I wanna have, I wanna know what I'm actually doing. And I've run a marathon before, and Bea actually said in the first one I watched about like, you don't go into a marathon without training and preparing and just rock up on the day. giving birth is like the biggest marathon. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you can draw so many, many parallels, I think, to really hard endurance things like a marathon because yeah, it's not just about the actual like running or like the motion, but it's like the nutrition and the mindset and all the strategies that you're going to employ. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. I'm good at head stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I'm good at thinking and over analyzing and all of that, but actually like kind of going into your body and understanding how your body's feeling and what's happening in your body and learning about the body and learning about the physiological side of birth and how, yes, it's painful, but it's not pathological pain. And it just like all of those things that really helped me in my labor and my birth, but also more than that, like my ability to sit with my body and understand what's going on is so much better now than what it was before I had babies. Yeah, yeah, 100%. And so with the MGP, so they could also because not all MGPs offer home birth, but this particular one did. Yep, yeah they did and Andrew Bessitz who's he's in what's that there's a documentary ah Is it like- time. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Does he do breach or twins? But he's the head of obstetrics at Randwick. He's an advocate for home birth. So I didn't know all of this until like... And so, yeah, I was quite lucky in the sense that I was at a hospital, my local hospital, that was very pro-home births and really tried to create opportunities for women who wanted it, access them. Cool. the same time, there was still quite a lot of red tape. Like you didn't get signed off until you were 37 weeks. Yeah, I to tick all these boxes. Yeah, I also, okay, so hang on, I'm going to backtrack a bit. That's all right. So my midwife at my first appointment flagged it. I was like, not this time, but I'd be open to it in the future. Yeah. But I'd said I'd like to, my preference was the birth center. over the birthing suite and I wanted a water birth because of Of oh Yeah, yeah, not Ishka. Chakra is like a family run one. They have one there. with like, with, is it like near steps? Like there's very uh narrow steps. Anyway, I used to live behind Ackland Street, so that's really funny. We really have like followed each other along the East Coast. No, not that long ago, like five, five, five or six years ago, maybe seven years ago. I was at 09 to 2012. Yeah. Anyway, tangent. Yeah. So you're you're wanting the birth center over the birth suite. Yeah. Yeah. And whilst this is all playing out, yeah, I was educating myself more on birth. also, one of the other Facebook lives was with Catherine, who has the birth map. Catherine, yep. So I bought her a ball. So we're from like, go with the flow, whatever, to like, no, that's Yeah! That's awesome. And I get, do, I, once I'm interested in something, I hyperfixate. Yeah. All in. Yeah. Listening to things, reading stuff. I don't know. just, guess I, not in a bad way, but took control of the process in that I wanted to understand my body, understand birth, understand the system. Yeah. So not so I could control my birth, but so I was empowered in the process. And I guess that the thing that came out of it was you don't know what your life is going to be like. don't know what your birth is going to be like. There's no way in all the preparation in the world, at the end of the day, you don't know what's going to happen. But I wanted like for me equipping myself with the information and knowledge that, if certain things happen, you know, I may need to go have an emergency cesarean. I've spoken to my care provider. I understand why. I understand the process and the things that may happen that lead to that. Because trying to do that when you're in labor and things are escalating is impossible. Yuri and all. You're in your stress response in the work that I do. There's no way you can make decisions in that time. Often we are in those situations, we're forced to make decisions and there's no way we can make an informed decision. Having those conversations with care providers and with my husband and things beforehand, I found really helpful for everyone. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So yes, I did a bit of a swing. Yeah, it's pretty common with home birth. That's awesome. so at what point, because before you started recording, you said that the birth center, something happened. Yes, yes. So I was educating myself on birth and labour and the body and things. And then I can't remember when it was exactly, but I remember one of my appointments later on. So I was passed halfway, passed 20 weeks. And my midwife, he said to me, because of COVID, the hospitals had to change, like the birth centre is no longer an option because they've had to repurpose it for something else. Yeah. That's just wild. Sorry. What the heck? Yeah. uh And also, yeah, it was like my husband couldn't come to any appointments with me from then. He did come to the 20 week scan, which is good, but he didn't get to meet my midwife until I was in labor because my midwife is meant to come the week before, but he and the entire MGP group that I was in all were close contacts for COVID. So when I was like 38, almost 39 weeks and I got a call and he said, I have to like isolate for five days. could go into labor. What does that mean? oh And so another midwife from a different group came and dropped the pool and all of that stuff off. yes. So yeah, it was definitely an interesting time to be pregnant and And so how many, how many weeks do, do you reckon it was when you switched or had to, I guess, switch to home birth? think I probably was about 20 I'm gonna say 26 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, wasn't really, I mean, it's not much of a choice. It's like a hospital or not. And I guess I because the birth center from what I understood it was like that in between I like a mate, happy medium. Yeah. But because I had started doing the research and going on that journey, it was a no-brainer for me to choose a home birth. Yeah, yeah. The more educated I became around birth, around the system, around our bodies, the more home birth felt more aligned for what I wanted because I was low risk. And I guess, well, what does low risk mean as well? Like, I it But I'm like thinking of Amy then, like I felt confident in. in that and the fact that my midwife as well was such a like encouraging me to do it as well I think that was really positive like if he hadn't have said it at the start I probably wouldn't have had the confidence so I think his particular first time mums our primary care person for our has such an influence how we approach it yeah, yeah. I am going to ask just because I know listeners will also have this question on their mind. So did you have a male midwife? I did. Yes. And are you able to, before we jump into the birth story with Ezra, are you able to give a very short sort of uh I don't know, reviews the wrong word, but how was your experience with like a male midwife, especially being a first time mom? What was your experience like, especially because knowing your second birth was with the beautiful Beth, quite different. Like, yeah, are you able to speak to that? Yeah and I wanna, I mean there's not many male midwives. No. So I'm also mindful I don't wanna give away who it is in case, not that I'm. no, no, no, no, no, Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. uh It definitely was, I guess, an interesting initially, but I guess because I hadn't had given birth before, I didn't have anything to compare it to. Also, a few people like, of course you have a man. We've worked as like, I've got a brother and a dad. My mom passed away when I was a teenager. So, yeah, like I've always been surrounded by men. energy. uh Um, and you have two boys and I have two boys. Like, yeah, destined to be a boy mom. Um, I have beautiful girlfriends too. Like it's not, yeah. So, um, it didn't, it was a little bit weird, but it didn't feel weird. I didn't make it weird. I guess. Um, I will say the energy now I've had a birth with like Beth. I mean, there's so many different factors, the difference, but, um, yeah, the energy is very different. Um, when you have more, you know, with my first I had my husband Andrew and my midwife who was male. They were the two main people. I ended up having three midwives at my birth. And even that, like one of my, like, sorry good mothers, because the other two were female and she was really like, oh, you know, like having that female feminine energy in birth. and that I ended up having two extra midwives who were female. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually it's only one. Yes. only have one. Yeah, interesting. So like if you want to implant it, but I guess, yeah, like it's definitely different having a midwife, one who's also given birth. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's another factor too. Yeah. And then, someone who, yeah, is a male. I don't know, I actually, he was really well respected and it really challenged things and was a huge advocate for home birth. So I actually, yeah, I think, yeah, it ended up being really positive for me. Yeah, no, that's cool. Peace. that's so funny. It's kind of like freaky, especially when you talk about male energy and like siblings and your dad and yeah, anyway, you could really overthink that whole situation. But that's really cool. Thank you. And yeah, there aren't a lot of male midwives out there. I was doing a report for Home Birth Victoria recently and looking at the stats of midwives, uh that private I think it was all midwives actually in Australia and yeah, the percentage of male midwives are very, very low. As a student midwife, I remember working with a male midwife and yeah, he was also one of like the seniors, which in some ways is ironic. But anyway, that's a whole other thing. ah same with this as well. Yeah. could say so much, but I'm not. did, I had many conversations with him about the patriarchy. How are you still winning? Anyway, cool. Thank you for sharing that. So how many weeks were you when you went into when you started labour with Ezra? started labor roughly 39 plus three or four no 39 plus four no get you the next day Yeah. And in, you know, the week or two or whatever before that, did you have any signs that labor was going to start soon that your body was preparing or anything like that? Um, the day before, um, and I, I'd been getting brachs and hicks for weeks. One of the things that I really loved in that pregnancy, I had very different pregnancies, um, but because we're in lockdown, so I used to travel a lot for work. I worked in regional and remote communities. Cool. The country. I'm doing community led suicide prevention initiatives. Yep. uh So like the year before I did 42 trips in the year. So COVID was actually a blessing. mean... thought of doing that when pregnant or that would not have happened. And one of my colleagues or she works somewhere else but for one of the communities she actually said to me enjoy these, I think I had about 34 weeks at that point. She was like slow down and enjoy it because this is the last time you will not be a mum. Like you were going to be a mum for the rest of your life. Yeah! this is the last kind of moment. She said being a mom was amazing. She had teenage kids. um But really like allow yourself to like spend time with yourself, slow down, like just really nurture you. And I'm so glad I, she gave me that advice, but also that I listened to it because it really, yeah, it just was in this really beautiful head space. Um, and allowed myself to slow down, which I before, like, I never really did that anyway. Um, and through like a lot of unlearning and re-parenting and that's like another story. Have unpacked the why, but I was always like, go, go, go, always surrounded by people. Didn't like being alone. Like people, please. oh And actually giving birth and going through birth was probably really significant in my step to unlearn a lot of that. Unlearn a lot of that, like, people. If you go into birth, like, with that good girl, people pleasing mentality, you're not going to have, it's going to limit your capacity to have an empowering birth. You're thinking about others and what they want. care providers want you to do all of that and I think that can really, yeah that impacts on how we feel about ourselves and our birth during and after and so giving birth really helped me to be like holy moly like I'm amazing. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. m And yeah, like that flew off, like that flow on from into my everyday life as well. Yeah, yeah, Did you, like do anything like in particular to like, yeah, relax or especially because it was like, yeah, peak COVID. I know for myself personally, I, you know, in those last couple of weeks, I had all of these grand plans, but because of lockdowns, none of them. you know, were able to happen. Did you do anything in particular to like, you know, bring yourself in or ground yourself in those last couple of weeks? Mainly go to beach. That's my happy place, to ocean, swimming and things. Obviously it was the middle of winter, but I still would go in the water. Actually, I went for a swim the day before I went into labour and it was August. Yep. Sydney is so cold. Yeah, but it's still pretty cold. But I remember when I went in the water and like usually my stomach would tighten. But it was, it was, I was like, oh, like, I think that was a, that felt a little bit different. Like, I fought on labor? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. and, yeah, just even just going down to the water, doing, yeah, grounding the sand and things like that. Like that was, yeah, that was really good. And I, I guess I would usually why I'm a runner. I wasn't running 37. Yeah. uh I would always run on my own, but if I went for a walk or something I'd always go with a friend or like I didn't- the only time I would throughout my life be okay being alone was when I was running. And I actually hated running with other people. One time when we dating my husband and I went for a run and he was like never again. you're uninvited. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but I've definitely like that changed and I actually enjoyed and now really enjoy time on my own. Yes. Um, and space and yeah, learning. And even now, like I used to always have to wear headphones and listen to music or something. Whereas now often I'll go for a walk or a run and not have anything and just, and actually label stone. shared a story on that a few, I think it was a few months ago about how she had been starting to do that too. I was, and yeah, like I just, I'm a lot better now at being with myself. And I do feel that my process around understanding birth and labor and our bodies and all of that has really helped me in that and helped me to really be comfortable in my own body really. Yeah, no, that's powerful. I'll definitely go back and find, uh was it like a podcast episode or something with Laila Stone? Stories. I'll try and it out. yeah, that's, yeah, that's a really beautiful reflection. um And so Ezra, so you went to the beach in the afternoon and then you like labour began that night or? that I went, yeah, went to the beach for a swim. And then yes, that night probably, I think it was around nine o'clock, 10 o'clock, I started having contractions and then I had them all night. like not, they were there, but they weren't significant, but it did interrupt my sleep. I didn't wake up, Andrea was like, this could be days. Like, and I did, I actually did, I can't remember her name, but she used to work at the hospital in Randwick and then I think she went out. I don't know if she was still working privately as a midwife, but she did antenatal class and she actually ran one, like a small one, condensed like at her home and it was around the corner from her house. So we actually got to do that. And that was really good because she was really, she understood the system, like the hospital system. And essentially she said, As soon as you get to the hospital or contact the hospital, you essentially have 12 hours that the hospital will give you to give birth and if you haven't given birth in that 12 hours, they will intervene. Regardless of if there's anything wrong or not, that's like the un... spoken. Yes. Yeah. Well, they got staffing to all of them. It's a business. really good. And she taught and it was and it was good as well. I have a hilarious photo Andrew had to pretend to be the baby. no, pretend to be the working woman in life. She did like little okay. uh What do call it? Three other couples. uh It was it was a really good day. But m she talked a lot about the cascade of intervention and like all of that kind of stuff. And I had some I'd already like through the engine and all online things gone into that, but it was nice to have it in person. Yeah, like props and things. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. guess it made it and also she'd worked in that hospital so she knew that like the policies and things like that so and she's like she said something and she's quite blunt but it was good she said when women say they'd be you know they were in labor for 72 hours like you would be dead if you're in labor for 72 hours and she talked about it's like pre-labor can be days and days and days particularly for your first but she was like active labour, like it should, I can't remember exactly, but she was basically was like active labour won't be any longer than, I don't know, think it may have been 24 hours or so. Probably no more than that. Interesting. No, I don't know those stats specifically, but yeah, that's interesting. I'll try and find something and link it in the description. Yeah, there was, I guess it was backed by... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, she was saying, yes, you may be in labor for days, but it's pre-labor. And that was good mentally because I was like, okay, yes, I'm in labor and I'm having contractions for days. And I that really helped me mentally to, it's okay if it is for days. It doesn't mean there's something wrong. yeah, yeah. And yeah, like I found that information helpful. Yeah, I guess it like influence like, you know, mindset and like the power of your mind during labor in itself is such a powerful thing. And especially like at night time, I don't know about you, um yeah, like in both of my labors at night, like laboring uh at night time, it kind of feels like, yeah, like it is just you. And so I think like that might like, you know, having a really positive mindset like this is normal. It's okay. I'm okay. You know, my body's doing exactly what it needs to be doing to prepare to like birth this baby is like such an important thing. Like, as opposed to freaking out and being like, my gosh, this should be happening. X, Y, Z. Yeah, yeah. Panic. That's completely unhelpful. So at nighttime you were just sort of, you know, going about your own business. Yeah, trying to sleep and all of that. then in the morning, yeah, so in the morning, I think it was about eight o'clock or nine o'clock, I said, play in or when Andrew woke up, I was like, oh, I have been having contractions all night. And I called my midwife and told him and he was like, yeah, like you're doing the right thing. Try to rest as much as you can today. Maybe go for a walk, like just eat well. Yep, yep, yep. He was like, it definitely sounds like you're in labor, like, you know, this cool, gonna happen. But call me once things ramp up. And then it did. So I kept having contractions off and on all day, but not like, like it often does during the day, like they did slow down. And then I actually was, I had a friend come over, she, who was my like, second support person if it ended up being a long time, I like to take over Andrew if he needed backup. And she was coming over anyway, as we were studying at the time and we were meant to do like a case study role play thing. And so she came over and then it was about three o'clock in the afternoon and my contractions were getting like, they were still really far apart, but way more intense, like stopping me, my tracks kind of thing. she had a baby before. And yeah, so at that point, when we work again, and he said, I probably put the TENS machine on soon, I had a TENS machine. And I was like this early, said, yes, because he said most people hold off, but then it doesn't work because the way like it's actually better to have it on. it was like, put that on, that was amazing. Yeah, cool. m really yeah the tins machine was amazing and then I remember Andrew made steak for dinner so I had steak and then I vomited it. Oh no! oh Lovely. And I vomited so much in labor. like my labor ramped up around that like eight o'clock at night. So it had been 24 hours pre-labor, I guess. One of the things that I had in my birth map and then spoke to my care provider, I didn't want to be checked. I didn't want my cervix dilation and stuff to be checked unless... there was like, we felt like there was something wrong or something like that. I just wanted to be left um through like all the education and things I knew more about the other signs that your body's My um midwife did too. I really, I wanted like a hands off experience unless there were things that we felt were happening and then we like, would be like they wouldn't just do it. They'd be like, hey, this is what we want thinking. This is why. Yeah, yeah. And Andrew was a part of that too because I knew I'm going to be in labour so I really need him to be the sound. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he was great. He was an amazing support person. And yeah, well, yeah, but I often and I just vomited and vomited and vomited. So always a good sign, as much as it sucks. And then I think it was like 11 o'clock and he was like, oh, should I call? And I'm like, no, no, don't call. Because I was like, especially with a home birth, I think they give you nine hours before they call you. Okay, it might be like an MGP thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The hospital policy and yes, at the end of the day, it's my body. I get to choose all of that. And at the same time, I'm like, they do have hospital policies and I want to be aware of them beforehand. And yes, so I was like, I just wanted to hold off as long as I could. And then at about 1 a.m. I had another like vomiting, diarrhea, like all the things. Really intense contraction and I was like, okay, cool. Yeah. Now. Yeah. on. And so then they came and then, yeah, like, you know, the path, the pool, sorry, was half full. So when they arrived, I need to, I can't, I don't want to say their name, but. in the mid-life. Um, he did the doc life checks, heartbeat and stuff, and everything. And, yeah. And then just sat on the couch and let me lay by. Um. you in like active labour then when he had arrived? Yeah. Cool. So he called the second midwife to come pretty soon. And then ah it was about, so he, I think he arrived about two. The second midwife may, I think came pretty like half an hour to an hour after that. And then I went into, the pool for a bit, like I just kind of moved around at about 6am I started to feel the urge to push. Yeah. and no hang on 6 30 I think it was 6 30 I think my baby is If you need to go check that's completely fine. can't really get me used to. Okay. End. Yeah, about 630 in the morning. was so I got in the pool. m And this is where this is the thing around getting my head too much. So because I had all this knowledge, my head, I was still in my head. I wasn't in my body. And so I was like trying to push and but I something was stopping me from fully letting go. Yeah. Um, I was now like, yeah, I've done so much more and I know I've already talked a lot. Um, my second was different. Also my body hadn't done it. I, cause I went to a women's health physio and, um, my pelvic floor was quite tight. I've done a lot of work in the last kind of two months, like lengthening the leg and trying to relax it and things. So, and that's really common in runners. I was gonna say is that from running? Yeah. and pilates and things like they're not bad things but a lot of women who are active do have tight pox. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I, and I was about 32 weeks pregnant when I went to a women's health physio. So I didn't know that beforehand. yeah, but, and, whether this was right or wrong, like she had said to me, she's like, if you want to have a natural birth, you're to have to do a lot of work releasing and relaxing because you're really tight. Now I'm like, that wasn't a good thing. Very helpful! No! Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. From a mental... Yeah, yeah, yeah. So at 6.30, what kind of thoughts do you remember, if you remember having? just remember when I would push his, so his head was there, like you could see the top of his head. But like I'd have a contraction and I'd push, like he just kept going up and down my birth canal. And so we tried in the pool, tried over the toilet, tried over the bed. you know, I was like all around the house for an hour. But I just remember it was like a fear thing, like a fear of tearing, like a fear of like, I'm still too tight. Yeah, yeah, yeah. all of those things. so I wouldn't and yeah, like I wouldn't push to or wouldn't let go rather than push fully to allow him to yeah, to like people. um And yes, so it had been over an hour of that. And then my move was like, look, you and I knew the policy if you've been pushing an hour, they have to send you back. said, look, it's been an hour and 15 minutes. think he said, I'm going to have to call the paramedics. We're going to keep, he's like, you're to have this baby here. It's going to happen. But he's like, act like I can't. Yeah. Cause I guess it's like his registrations on the line. And I understand. He said, nothing's wrong. Baby's good. You're good. I and part of it was also I had no energy like I I vomited. I was so depleted. I hadn't slept for two days. Yeah. Like I was I was just like dumb physically. Mentally I was fine. I wasn't worried. I wasn't. Yeah. Like I knew that I was fine mentally and like physically I was just tired and exhausted. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, cool. And so then I didn't know this but um Andrew turned our buzzer down. Oh, like the doorbell. Oh no. We wouldn't hear them. no, that's a bit of a trick. hang on, my ah Siri started talking again. You But he also didn't want me to be interrupted too. At that point we went into the spare room bedroom. And also at that point I was on my back and there was the third midwife had already rocked up. So I had like three midwives. And I, you know, I was on my back. I had a midwife with each leg. I'm like, this is not how you meant to give birth. This is the wrong way. Um, but like, because, and now I know different things, like, yeah, you know, hindsight, they were doing the best they could as well. and so, you know, I was trying to push in that position. I had a lolly. I said to Andrew, can you get me a lolly? Like, cause I was just so exhausted. Um, and then trying to push again and it was so close. Like it was like, he's literally like, his head was like almost half out. Yeah, well, so paramedics came. They were in hazmat suits because it was hot. because of COVID. No! And they were in the kitchen, but the midwife was like, there's no way we're transferring her now, like she's there. And he said to me, he said, look, you are so close. He said, I think we should do an episiotomy for the next contraction. And then he said, that will allow the head to be flushed. So, crap. so, yeah. and he put like numbing cream and stuff and I was like okay and at that point I was like okay and yes so that's what like so he did that and then he crowned gay birth that was all it all happened it was all thanks for still in kitchen in the house Yeah. Oh my gosh. It's crazy. You know, I'd never actually even thought about that because um in my first birth, there was also like talk of paramedics being called for like different reasons. um But I'd never reflected that if, if we had have had to call the paramedics that they would have rocked up in. a full PPE. my gosh. my gosh. Oh, wild. Um, holy moly. And what was your third stage like with Ezra then? So I, in my birth map had said I wanted a physiological third stage. then because of the episiotomy and the, because I had been pushing, the MIPI said, look, I think we should do the injection because of risk of PPH and all that stuff. And at that point, honestly, I did it. was like, Yeah, yeah. Whatever. Jab me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, baby was on my chest. Like they didn't, they didn't cut the cord or anything. Um, so Ezra at the time, we didn't know. also they put him on my chest and we're like, what is it? it's the boy. And yes. So had the injection placenta came out all fine. And then, um, paramedics went home. Everything's fine. Goodness me. Yeah. Wow. And so you said that your pregnancy, pregnancy in particular with Ryda was different to the pregnancy with Ezra. Yeah, had to a G for half um and it was, yeah, it was a little harder. Yeah, with the episodomy with Ezra, obviously, I mean, no one ever expects an episodomy, but. Do you know, in the time between Ezra and Ryder, did did you feel like that brought up anything that you had to work through like mentally? Yeah. Are you able to like speak to that like a little bit? Yeah, I know I've gone way over but that's okay. Yes, so my uh recovery award again didn't know any different but I barely walk for two weeks and it was super painful and I had quite significant scar like, raise like sensitive scarring. uh women's health physio was amazing. I ended up getting, it took about six months, but it ended up healing really, really well. But I still, so I had four years, almost four years between birth. But I was still like, one, I didn't want another episiotomy. I guess I also realized part of the reasoning I had an apesionomy was a policy that around like how long acceptable and that the paramedics were in my kitchen wanting to transfer me. Yeah. Didn't want to do that. So like there were a lot of different things outside of what was happening in my body that impacted on that. I don't regret it and I don't feel like I was coerced. Like I think, like I'm okay with how it played out, but I also like, like, things and even different positions and stuff like, you know, having your knees in and your legs out, like all those different things I didn't try. And mentally as well, that feeling of like feeling safe to let go and safe to like release. I still had some stuff that I was holding onto from my own. Um, nothing to do with birth and labor, but from my own lived experience in life and things that have happened that impacted on my ability to feel safe in my body. Um, and so yeah, different factors, but I was fearful. I really like about needing another anapesia or that my scar would like, I'd be more likely to tear or to like pull that kind of stuff. So that was definitely playing on my mind a bit. So, and we moved, so we moved to Queensland when I was four months pregnant. I had gotten back into MGP in Redwick and then planned another home birth. So we moved to Queensland. didn't have publicly funded home birth. So I went on the hunt to find a private and wife and found the beautiful Beth. I can say her name. can say Beth's name. Yes. And Beth is she was one of my teachers when I did midwifery for a little bit only as a student. But she is also in one of the midwife episodes on the podcast. So I'll make sure I'll link that because she's she's good value Beth. She is. And so, yeah, and she came recommended from someone else. I know as well. uh very different process because obviously when you go through the hospital, just you don't get to pick who your birthing team is or anything. You're also not paying for it. So it's a significant investment. And but yes, so I interviewed. Like I Googled what? questions to ask. Yeah. mean, but that's, that's how it should be. Like you don't go to it, you know, I mean, you can just go to any GP, but I think for most of us nowadays, like, you know, you're asking for recommendations. You want to be, you want to find the right GP for you. It's like, it's the same with psychologists. Like it's so, so many things. makes sense that you would be able to choose the midwife that you feel makes you feel safe and is going to be able to support you has the right values. um So, yeah, I think that's fantastic. And it was one of the things as well. So I did actually meet someone through that Facebook group who is a good friend of mine now who was, well, she planned to home birth but was transferred for birth. But that was really like, it was nice to have a friend. That was like on the same page as far as home births and things go. Yeah. And one of the reasons for her second birth that she got transferred was because her primary midwife was at another birth when she went into labor. And so that was one of the questions I asked Beth and the other people I interviewed, like how many women do you have? Because caseloads and stuff like that. can really play into it. that was a big reason why I went with Beth was because she only had two women per month and a lot of the others had like between like three to four or five, sometimes. So that was a question that I wouldn't have thought of if I hadn't had a friend who'd had that experience. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so when did the HG kick in with Ryder? Do you remember? Oh, OK. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it just continued on until. It lessened in severity. So it was probably about week 10 to week 16 that I could barely get out of bed most days. Couldn't work. I couldn't even look after Ezra. I had to get friends or people to look after him most days. Or Andrew had to not work and stuff. It was really debilitating. Yeah. And I'd been a sick a little bit with Ezra, but I'd have a few bad days. Whereas with Ryder, it was like 24-7. It was either really nauseous or like vomiting violently. And that, yeah, that was really hard. then within that, we also decided to move states. We had three weeks. There were a few different reasons. Our rent was going up. It was like Christmas time and everything. And we were like, either we wait until we've had the baby or we move now. We're like, well, let's move now. um So uh it was so intense. when we got here, I just, I slept for like four. Yeah, gosh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. and we'll stay with the mining laws. And it was only meant to be for a month, but it took us four months to find out. And so, so you arrive at like fourish months and then, um, because you were saying as well before we recorded that you were, yeah, you'd found a house like very late and you actually didn't end up moving into your home for your home birth until you were 39. A home is pretty essential for a home birth. Yes, I had a big wife. Yeah, and I don't think my in-laws were too keen on the home birth. It does happen though. I've had stories where it has happened. so maybe, are you able to, like you sort of spoken a little bit about it already, but what do you feel were the biggest differences between having a private midwife and having a midwife in, you know, from the publicly funded system? I'd say the level of care and the personal relationship. um And I acknowledge that Beth, she can't be best friends with all of us. Yeah, yeah, But you do, you form this really beautiful connection and relationship. And I didn't have that with my, like, he was great. But I spent way more time with Beth. She took way more time. Like the appointments weren't rushed. I went to her house for them because I didn't have a home. Yeah. She my house once, she came to my in-laws once, but it was just a bit awkward. They didn't have a private space I could go. It was just easier for me to go to hers. But I would say that aftercare was the most beneficial, particularly being my second. um And Andrew was caring for Ezra. um coincided my in-laws were sick so they couldn't look after Ezra or help us out. it was really intense and I'm recovering from birth and all of that but Andrew couldn't be there for me. He was with my first because we had another child that needed, he needed. Of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For many reasons we'd moved, we had a baby, like it was... For a little person and so Beth, I felt really nurtured and held by Beth in a way that you don't get in the public system. Yeah. I think that's a brilliant way to put it. yeah, part of that is that, yeah, whilst like private midwives, like it is like their like small business, you know, to have to, you know, be a private midwife. It's like so totally different to the hospital system. It's like the hospital system is like a beast of its own, like the layers and the hierarchies and the policies and. just the enormity of it is, well, it's, it just doesn't work. um Yeah, it's a machine. um It's yeah, so totally, totally different. But that's yeah, a really beautiful um reflection. And yeah, I love Beth, so maybe we're biased. Yeah. I think we're going back to what we were talking about before with the um episiotomy and stuff. So I had a, I saw a women's health physio earlier. As soon as I moved up to the coast, was like, my first two things was finding midwife, finding women's health physio. And Beth recommended Ocean who's up in Moosa, oh Alchemy. um I think a lot of women up here see her. Cool. and she actually has a course around perineum massage and all of that stuff. So we actually had an appointment with Andrew as well and that was like so awkward but like she showed him how to do it and Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's like, um, you know, when you're very pregnant, it's hard to do things. So a hundred percent. He was, yeah, was really great about it. We were living at my evils at the time, so to be honest, it didn't really happen. and so I, and I had, I was so stressed that pregnancy, like trying to find a house, living with my emotions. Like it was I, and then I was stressed that I was stressing because it was like, this is impacting the baby. And then I'd be more stressed and overwhelmed. And it was, and I was so depleted, my iron, I ended up having an iron infusion at 37 weeks because it, like I was on liver and spleen tablets and all the things. And it was just going down and down and down. I was so tired, um I barely exercised, whereas my first one I exercised all the way through. It was such a hard pregnancy. I didn't like being pregnant. It first time I loved it. And yes, so I felt, I was super anxious because I haven't been able to mentally prepare and slow down and do all those things. like I want to because of lots of reasons. And yeah, and then also the stuff around the episiotomy and things like I had big chats with Beth about it. And I think I don't think she's ever had to do like she's ever done one. And that was a good indication as well because I didn't realize like the stats around episiotomy for that particular hospital were really high. Interesting, yeah. So, you know, there's all these different things that you learn about, like statistics around that really like we need to. paint the picture yeah yeah yeah yeah If a hospital has like a 70 % episiotomy rate, that shows that like, it's not a reflection of individual midwives, but it's like that's what their process is. that's what they, if things aren't going a certain way, that's their answer. often, midwives, like private midwives will try all different types of things, support you through different things before going to that. Yeah, yeah, And yes, so, but there was still, guess, like that mental thing. And then it kind of, I think it was 37 weeks and Bea was doing a webinar on birth trauma. Like around episiotomies, third and fourth degree tears. So I registered for that and I watched it. And that was really good. One, because she talked a lot about more around stuff around like your, like how you have the safety you feel, felt sense of safety you feel when you're giving birth with the people who are there and within yourself as well. As that being like one of the key factors around preventing like tears and... and things. Also one, like the thing that came to me was you like that resonated for me was our bodies are actually like designed to tear him, like make space for a baby to be born. had a fear of tearing hugely in my first pregnancy. that was one of the things that was stopping me from being able to fully release when he was trying to come out. yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's such a common thing. Yeah, I mean, that's also like a whole other tangent, but it is so, so, so common for yeah, especially because what you say is like our bot, like the tearing is like, that's how it's designed. It's making space. It's not pathological. And it can heal. Yeah, it heals better usually than episiotomies. Oh, ten. that my experience with my second birth was I did tear. And I know there's lots of different factors. I had a water birth, which is beautiful. didn't even think about that because my gosh, going back to hippie shop in St. Kelly, you just wanted a water bath. my gosh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So I, the labor was very different. He was posterior. He was actually breeched up until 36 weeks as well. ah So there were lots of different, I guess, complications. My pregnancy with Ryder and that's another reason I was really thankful to have a private midwife because if I was in the hospital with all those things, I probably wouldn't have had a... And so, but he turned at 36 weeks, which was great. Clever baby. And then, yes, so when I had the urge to push, I got in the aura and literally like, eh I was still a little bit in my head, but more in the sense I was like, I wasn't scared of tearing. I was like, I know I like, I'm gonna, I guess I'm like, I'm gonna allow my body to do what it needs to. and I trust it and I trust the people around me. Yeah. I trust that they also know if I need support, like I know they're not going to interview me unless it's really necessary. I'm not bound by a hospital policy, all of that kind of stuff. But they're also like for me, it was important I had like midwives there that if know, things did go wrong that they, I would go to do the things like that was important to me. And yes, so I started pushing. Before before we go to pushing how did labor with writers start? And also and also maybe like one of my other questions is um because this is also this also comes up sometimes as well, because, yeah, I mean, I had the same experience. Why do we always move when we're pregnant? I don't know, that somebody can unpack that. But so you're with the in-laws until like 38 weeks and then you move into your new place at like 39. And that would have been so stressful. Like, you know, because like at 38, you're kind of like, well, labor can happen anytime you already had a baby like before the before 40 weeks. So like, what's going to happen? Did you feel like you could? Like, were you even unpacked? Like... So pretty much we had like really great friends. I'm going to get right. Yeah. Go for it. Go for it. So did you feel like you said you'd unpacked and whatnot? yeah. and because we we sold most of our furniture and everything when we moved from Sydney, course, so We started buying like a few things, but we didn't know what house we were moving into So we want to buy too much. So it was like as soon as we signed the lease we had ten days to like get a house Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, and I had some beautiful friends come over on the Saturday and one of my friends, she cooked a whole bunch of nutritious food. She'd been living in a harry kushner village and doing a lot of the cooking in the village. food. Yeah, they just helped me nest, guess. then we have family up here as well. So, yeah. So it all came together. It all came together and literally the day I went into labour, it was a Wednesday, it was the first day I felt uh like I was waiting. Whereas before that I was like, don't come, don't come. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Stay in. And that day I was like, okay, like I don't know what to do now. So we took Ezra to play group that morning. We probably won't be able to do this for a bit. um And then got home from play group and then I lost my Mewkispa. Yeah. and then started having contractions that afternoon. And then we'd organized a support person for it. Like, so I had a birth thing, birth is magic. Oh yes, yeah, yeah, book. I have it like literally here actually just right next to me. Yeah, so and Ezra loved that book. He would always talk about the wee room and the placenta. So we were, yeah, we wanted him there for the birth, but also had grandparents as backup. Yeah. oh And I had a friend who was there, lined up to be support for Ezra. But most, my labor was mainly at night. And so it rammed up at about nine o'clock at night and Ezra was in bed. So we were like, oh, I'll probably labor overnight. He'll be fine. He sleeps through. But of course he didn't that night. So at midnight he came out and I was in labor. And he was like, it's the baby coming. m So cute. And yeah, we were like, yes, but it could be a while. So go like, you know, come back to bed and then I needed Andrew because he was like pushing on. was post, our rider was posterior. So I a lot of back pain. But the TENS machine wasn't working and like all the things that I had the first time weren't working. And then, yeah, Ezra didn't want to go back to bed without Andrew and stuff. So then we called, we called. my friend Kelly to come and Beth came around the same time. so, but then I was in labor. It was active labor, but it didn't, it was pretty intense and Beth lives an hour from me. So she said call as soon as like when we called and she could hear me and she was talking to Andrew. She was like, yeah, I'm going to come now. Like she sounds pretty close, but then I just stayed like that for like hours and hours and hours. OP baby. And then, and my water's kind of broke, like it was just like the second big wipe ended up going to have a nap. Yeah. I vomited a lot again. Um, but then my waters broke at six 40 and I'm like, okay, now like, hopefully things ramp up and it's going to happen like in the next few hours. Yeah. Um, but then I, the next contraction felt the urge to push. well, yeah, but sometimes they say that the word at the breaking of your waters just like does something to the position and just plop. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So then, yeah, so then I like was like, oh, I need to get in the water. So I like got in the water. And next contraction, his head crowned. then, and I was like giving a running commentary. And I, so his head crowned and then I was like, it feels like it's going back in. And Beth was like, that's a sign of a shoulder dissociation. And so, and then the next contraction came and I was pushing, I'm like, he's like, it's stuck. It's tough. I can't, like it's, you know, I'm pushing it. Like it literally felt like he was stuck. And so she ended up, cause she was like standing back. And then she came in and he had a shoulder dystocia. So she kind of just like maneuvered him a little bit. then he came out. He said to me, because I was giving a running commentary, that really meant that it, that helped the situation. Cause it meant it didn't like become this big thing. Cause I know that. shoulders, so she can be quite traumatic. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So she was able to support, adjust that process like whilst you were still in the water and on like on your knees. Yeah, I was on my knees. Andrew was in the water too. So I kind of had, was kind of on my side on my knees. So I my head on like the edge of the pool. Yeah, on all fours, but almost like she got me, I was kind of on the, like half on the side, kind of like one leg up kind of thing. And so she could see. then she literally just got her hand. Yeah. And just does it. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Wow. And then he came out. So it was like 15 minutes. Wow. Yeah. And so you did tear, did you say? Yes, I stayed in the water for a bit. I planned to stay in the water to birth the placenta. But then I was starting to get cold and like my blood pressure was dropping and stuff. So got out of the water and I went on the couch with him. Heated the breast coral and fed him all of that kind of stuff. Then I tried to go to the toilet. I don't know how long it had been. It had been a while and I was feeling really crap. And my blood pressure kept dropping. And then after two hours and it was really low. And so both midwives said, well, and I hadn't birthed the placenta yet. Couldn't do a week either. And they said, look, your blood pressure is really low. It's been two hours where pretty like we think like we need to get this placenta out. I know you wanted a physiological first, but placenta, but I think like, you know, it's running the risk of getting transferred for people. yeah, yeah, yeah. And I felt, like really felt bad, like really horrible. I can't even explain the feeling. Like physically. Yeah. felt not good in my body. was like, something's not good in my body. And so I was like, yep, do that. So they, oh no, that's right. And then before they did that, they were like, your bladder's full. And they, so they then, but I couldn't wee. So then they had to put a catheter to drain my bladder. So that was pretty horrible experience, but like it was over, but was just after giving birth, don't. No, you don't want anything going back up there. It's a different hole. That area. Yeah. And then gave me the injection and presented him out and I instantly felt better. My blood pressure went up like it was. Yeah, it was good. So that was good. And then checked and they actually said like I had second degree tear, but it was quite, it was internal and it was quite a clean tear. said that would actually heal without sutures. Cool. like you'd have to keep your legs together and lie down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And especially with a four, yeah, not just a baby. You've got like, oh basically a four year old. Yeah. It was like almost full. So I opted for stitches. Yep. But the heelie, like I had no pain. I had really bad after birth pain. They're way worse the second time. Yeah, so surprising. Yeah, I didn't have I, yeah, I don't even think I was expecting them. And I was like, wait a second. What is this? Yeah. Yeah, that was horrible. after that, so it was like two days. But actual, my perineum and things, like really barely any pain. I could go to the toilet fine. That was such a different experience for the first time. And it made me realize like, wow, like a PC on healing is a lot harder than tearing from my experience. yeah, yeah. End. Yeah, well, I think also with tearing is like, I mean, this feels like logical to me, but like your body's not gonna do more than it needs to like, but with a tear, like with a episiotomy, like the person making the cut is in control of like how far we're like, you know, in charge of all these things. And it's not like it's completely disconnected from your own body. um I think that's an important thing to think about when you're thinking about tears versus episiomidomies as well. But that's that's fantastic. I think um it's just like so fantastic to hear a story about um like shoulder dystocia and it being resolved in the pool. Um, sure. That's not like, you know, some, that, you know, sometimes they're quite severe. It's not like, you know, not every time, but it's like fantastic and obviously such a different experience, especially because like, you know, when it gets to the end with shoulder dissociation, you usually do end up on, uh, your back, but like, ironically, like with your first birth, you ended up on your back and it wasn't for a dissociation. So like, it's just, yeah, like go figure. Um, Yeah, definitely felt more. um And this is the thing, my pregnancy was horrible and I was really stressed and anxious, but my labor and birth experience, I felt more able to release and let go and empowered. um Even though I did feel empowered in my first, I just, yeah, I don't. Different thing the different things I was still holding on to in my first that I'd worked through and Like started to heal and things Meant that that experience was a lot Yeah, and and I don't know Beth is this beautiful soul Yeah, she's, she's, yeah, yeah, magic. Like who you, who you, and I, and yeah, in not that I, again, like it's not a, I didn't have a negative experience in my first, but I guess the energy from Beth and the person she is and how she shows up in the birth space was so different. We're just knowing Beth. I feel like it's just like two, it's like two completely different things. Yeah, so yeah, you who's in your birth space is like I hands down that has the most impact on your experience. Yeah. like amazing stories. Thank you so much for sharing Amy. and Ryder is just chilling. I feel how old is he now? I feel like when that was like Frankie, he was just like playing with my headphones. Like I used to try and record when he was that little. Oh my gosh. He's so cute. my goodness. Look at his beautiful hair. ah Bye, Rhytma! none. Thank you so much. Is there anything that we haven't talked about that you wanted to talk about or anything like that? I mean, we could go on so many tangents. I should create a whole separate podcast for just tangents.