From 'woo woo' to choosing homebirth twice, homebirth after significant tearing || Racheal's birth of Paddy (2018) and Johnny (2022) at home (Victoria)

This is the 60th birth at home story!
And it shared by Racheal in Victoria, mum to 2 babies both born at home. Growing up Rachael, alike many people, thought homebirth was a bit ‘woo woo’. Meeting her home birthed husband, now paramedic, they began on a homebirth journey for their 2 babies, choosing private midwifery care.
We also chat about the emotional experience of the baby when it is born, its transition to life outside the womb and the impact of social media on perceptions and understandings of birth. Racheal also shares her experience with homebirth after significant perineal and cliteral tearing.

Resources: 

• Julei Bell - Blissful Herbs https://www.blissfulherbs.com.au/
• The changes required when transitioning to extrauterine life https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4987541/

Thought provoking points:

1. Why do we feel safest in the hospital?
2. What is the impact of social media on perceptions and understandings of birth?

Transcript

0:02

This is Birthing at Home, a podcast. I'm Elsie, your host. I'm a home birth mom of two little boys, a doula in Melbourne supporting birth at home. I'm a mental health nurse and the co-creator of Home Birth Victoria. If you want to learn more about me, the podcast or my work as a doula, check out www.birthingathome.com.au. Before we begin, I would like to acknowledge the Wurundjeri people who are the traditional custodians of the land I'm recording on in Nam, Melbourne, Australia. I would also like to acknowledge that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples have been birthing at home on country for tens of thousands of years prior to the British invasion and acknowledge that sovereignty has never been ceded. This is the 60th birth at home story and it's shared today by Rachel and Victoria, who's a mum to two babies, both born at home. Growing up, Rachel, alike many people thought home birth was a bit Woo woo. Meeting her home birthed husband, now paramedic, they began on a home birth journey for their two babies, choosing private midwifery care. We also chat about the emotional experience of the baby when it is born, its transition to life outside the womb, and the impact of social media on perceptions and understandings of birth. Rachel also shares her experience with home birth after significant perineal and clitoral tearing. Remember to rate or review this episode on Spotify or Apple if you enjoy it. And of course, please share it with others. Enjoy. Welcome Rachel to birthing at home a podcast. Thanks Elsie. Thank you. Thank you for being here. Thanks for having me. Would you like to introduce yourself, maybe give a bit of a better background, who you are, who's in your family, where you're located, that type of thing? Yep. So I'm Rachel. I live in Northeast Victoria. which is very lovely and warm this time of year. And I live with my husband, Liam, and our two little boys, Patty, who's nearly six, and Johnny, who is two and a half. Johnny is such a cute name. Thank you. I like it. And so you originally reached out in like March. And now it's November, by the time this episode comes out, I was just counting ahead. By the time this episode comes out, it'll be like January, I think, like 2025. So it was a long time coming. But when we just sort of touched on this before we started recording as well, but you used to work as a nurse, is that right? Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. How long were you in NSFAR for? I started to say it and I don't remember. A bunch of years. That works. And so what I'm curious about is so you both, Patty and Johnny were both born at home. How did you come across home birth? Yeah. Look, initial ideas or my ideas of birth. Look, growing up, I really liked. birth, I was always really interested in it. Loved watching like One Born Every Minute and all those, I'd watch that with my mom. Loved it, but now I can't stand watching it. It changes a little bit. But yeah, really, really was really fascinated by birth, wanted to be a midwife, thought I'd do my nursing first and then I'll do my midwifery. And then when my husband and I were I ended up just working as a nurse for a few years and I was planning to do midwifery one day but hadn't got there yet. And then when Liam and I were thinking about starting family, he said, oh, I don't know exactly how, but he said, have you thought about home but he was born at home. Oh, wow. So his mom had four kids and they were all born at home. Yeah, amazing. In Victoria? So he was in South Australia. Oh, wow. or might have been the last one might have been in Vic, I'm not sure. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But that's I think was pretty good home birth community in Adelaide back then. Yeah. I don't know if it was now but it was going back a while. And so she was pretty passionate about it, but I just didn't really think much of it. And then Liam suggested it and I, look, I didn't have, I certainly wasn't against it. had, we did have one family friend who had home birthed, but I remember thinking she was like a bit woo woo growing up. And I think we got invited to her. like mother blessing when we were teenagers and I was laughing at the invitation because I've had a painting of a squatting woman birthing a baby and I was, me and my sister were like, oh, we're not going to that baby shower. It's just a bit woo woo. But also, you know, this friend is Julie Bell from Blissful Herbs. So I didn't really know much then, but now obviously I love her and I do respect her. But so that was kind of my only perception of home birth. So then when Liam said it suggested it to me, I was like, look, it's, you know, it sounds lovely, but obviously if something goes wrong, you want to be in hospital. And he goes, look, why don't you just research it? Like, just have a look into it. And he knows that I like to research, I guess. And I really thought that I'd go away and do my research and come back to him and be like, look. here's the evidence, we're better off in hospital. And I went away and like really researched it, like got really stuck into it. I just trawled through my nursing databases and Liam's work databases and just went a little bit nuts looking at heaps and different studies and came back to him and I was like, okay, it's safer at home. So we'll do it at think the funny thing looking back on that now is that like I actually only was looking at infant mortality. That was the only like measure of whether it was safe or not as well. Wow. even so is in some studies the same as in some better at home. Yeah. Never worse. But that was the only marker that I was interested in. Yeah. think those other markers like, you know, maternal outcomes are just so important as well. And I just hadn't really given it much consideration. I Yeah. And I think partly that's you grow up hearing all these women who've had all these things happen in childbirth and you're like, oh, well, they're okay now. So whatever happens, I'll be all right. And they're not actually okay. Yeah. As you get older and you start having these conversations with them, you're like, oh. You're not okay. You're not okay. And you're not okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, it's yeah, I think that was that's changed since then looking at that. But yeah, so I decided, okay, this is actually safer, which was a big shock to me. And of course, Liam was quietly celebrating. that's so good, though. And that's so, so interesting. that that was the thing that you were looking at, like, yeah, the neonatal mortality, because yeah, it's so much bigger than that. But like, I am pretty confident when I say that most people would be thinking the same way as you were. Yeah, I think so. It was like the only thing that I could, that I thought was relevant, to be honest. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's absolutely wild... Yeah, I mean, there's so much I could say on it. I've recently been doing a lot of thinking and like reading into like trauma for babies and like the emotional experience of babies being born and whatnot. like, yeah, that's never considered about in terms of outcomes. That's not even like measured. So no, just as you what I was reading when you called I was getting stuck. looking through birth photos and all sorts of things. And I was reading this, oh, now I'm not going to be able to find it. said that. Yeah, here we go. Just a quote from there. I don't even know what documentary it is. I shouldn't say that. don't know where it's from. But a documentary that's reading, I'm sure. And this father's talking about when his son was born and how, you know, they just picked him up and rubbed him all over and everything and how he was really distressed watching it. And he said, He's talking about how she picked him up like a chicken basically and just like rubbed a towel all over him like a hard scratchy towel. And then, and he's just reflecting on how that experience is for the baby. And he says, if he's born in a cozy home in the warm arms of his parents with skin to skin contact, the message he receives is it's worth being born. The world is warm and receptive. But if he's born and separated from his parents, it's a beginning marked by the need for survival. It just like gets me. Yeah. Like it's just so full it. Yeah. Just while I was talking with colleagues last night when I was at work and and they also were like, oh yeah, we never thought about that before. And I was like, yeah, because nobody does. Nobody does. Babies are just like these little creatures that have no feelings and no emotions and they just cry and they don't know any better. That's not true. No, and why do we need to make them cry when they're born? I know no one's whacking them anymore, why is it that that's what makes it makes us feel good when they cry? Because we're like, good, they're breathing. So we just think they have to cry. whatever we have to do to make sure they're crying, rub them down. It's just like, why? Why is that the goal? Make them cry the moment they come into the world. Like little bubbles. So you looked at the research and learned home birth is safe. Amazing. Like, like where you are in terms of midwifery care. Yep. So we were in the Yarra Valley at the time. okay. Cool. For our first. And there's actually quite a few private midwives around in the area. of Eastern suburbs and then the Yarra Valley. So we had quite a lot of choice, but when we decided, I went straight to Julie and I was like, all right, who should I, where's a good midwife? And she... pointed us in the direction of Yarra Valley midwives. And that was two midwives, Lisa and Robbie, working together. And I know one is primary, one secondary, but at the time, I think maybe their caseload wasn't as big as it became later. And so they were both at all of our appointments and everything. So that was really lovely. I don't think I even really knew who was my primary until the paperwork afterwards and stuff. it was really, really lovely. Yeah, so we went. with them and it was really good. amazing. And like, during your pregnancy, did you like do any particular education or like, did you have to work on any particular fears around like home birth? Like, you know, even though you'd done this research and you'd figured out that, like, home birth is safe. Like, did you do any extra kind of stuff? Um, look, Our midwives did sort of bits of education at every appointment, obviously. And so that's really how we did it. I read quite a few books, listened to heaps of birth stories, which I still do, even though I'm not having any more babies. And what else? We did, this is terrible that I can't remember this. We did a birth preparation course that wasn't so much about like physical preparation or preparing for labor as much as it was sort of like emotionally preparing or mentally preparing. And it was a woman, I feel so bad that I can't remember her name. Yes, I can. Emily Morton. And I can't remember her like title or. Whatever. That's okay. That's alright. She came to our house for a weekend course and did this with us. the two of us. And it was really lovely to do that. But yeah, to be honest, I didn't really have fears once I looked at the research. I was like, good. Yeah, yeah. That's all I needed to know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah, I didn't know a great deal probably about, well, I thought I knew a lot about birth then. Probably didn't know as much. as yeah, as I could have, but I'm kind of in some ways I'm like, I'm glad in a way. think if you're going into a hospital where you've got to be so, so equipped with all of the knowledge and all of the, you know, ready to fight your case, but I didn't have to fight and I knew I wasn't going to have to fight. like I was informed, but I don't know. I didn't feel like I had to have this bank of. Yeah. Knowledge and arguments. So many things can be offered or happen to you. so you have the knowledge that you have to have going into a hospital. No matter kind of what birth you want, you need to know so much information. But yeah, obviously, like when you're planning a home birth, mean, some people like to have an awareness of like hospital things in case they need to transfer but like otherwise generally, like if you're not going to be in a hospital, you don't necessarily need to know the ins and outs of epidurals and like, you know, for as an example. So that makes it easier. Hey. Yeah, exactly. My sister was pregnant at the same time. So we had our first babies five weeks. Wow. And she was having a hospital birth. She's since had two home births, but her first was a hospital birth. And Yeah, she really had to fight like really hard and she definitely equipped herself with lots of knowledge sort of as much as you can when it's your first and again, this is six years ago. There wasn't actually a lot like on social media about home birth probably very little I would say six years ago or at least that we were aware of or maybe that maybe our algorithm didn't have it yet. don't know. I it's definitely I mean even like Yes. And Murphy's four and a half. So like even at the start of 2020, I feel like, yeah, well, there were no podcasts like specific to home birth. Yeah, like podcasts. feel like I think Australian birth stories was still quite new. So even that was like pretty, you know, fresh. And in terms of like Instagram and things like that, like, I think Instagram has changed a lot over the past. however many years and like I definitely don't remember really getting any education from Instagram. But I feel like now everyone's posting about everything to do with the birth world, you know, there's accounts set up like fully like posting like, I mean, people are live streaming their births like, I don't think that was happening a few years ago, you know? No, absolutely not. I think I think I actually got Instagram while I was pregnant. It makes it feel like a really long time ago or makes me sound really old. And I remember, I think I pretty much was just following like Julie's Blissful Herds account. She had some videos and like little birth videos, but I think she was, there wasn't much else, but I loved watching those videos and I felt like that actually gave me a lot of confidence. There was something that she said to me while I was pregnant with Patty. which I will never forget. She said, like, if you're going to do something like go bungee jumping, you're not going to get there and do it. If you've never seen it, you've never seen anyone do it on a video or in real life. You've never seen anyone bungee jump. You're not just going to, someone's going to go, well, tie this around your ankle and you jump off. You're not going to, you're not going to do it. Or if you do, you're going to be like ridiculously terrified. women are now pretty much all women are getting to birth and they've never seen anyone give birth, which historically that's not normal. It's really not. It's sort of a very new thing for women to be arriving at their own first birth, having never seen a laborer birth. And so, I mean, in the culture that we live in, think birth videos are the only real way to counter that. And that was really helpful for me. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think in the... training stuff that I'm doing with Rhea Dempsey, she is always on about like in birth videos. It often doesn't actually specifically say like what number birth it is. And so and also like sometimes, or a lot of the time, there's you know, really beautiful music over the top. So it can also be a little bit misleading, you know. But I agree, it is very powerful. And so did you like get any Like did anyone like, you know, colleagues or anything like that, like express any concerns about you having home births? Yeah, for sure. Definitely colleagues. They were pretty, they tried to be good about it, but there was definitely a lot of, you're so brave or, or not a chance. Like I would never do that or. comments that I don't know, I don't think anyone specifically said the whole like, there's no medals for going drug free or anything, but it was definitely implied like, why wouldn't you just, you know, what are you trying to prove something like you don't have to or you'll, you'll, you'll end up going to hospital, just wait and see like a lot of that kind of thing. Like well-meaning people, but definitely a lot of that. So I don't know. If anything, I think it just made me more determined. Yeah, yeah, I'll show you. But it can definitely have like, those kinds of things, I think can definitely have a negative effect on people. Yeah. If we don't not care for what we say to women who are. Yeah, I did have actually my husband's boss. She said to me, what did she say? I was very big, very big. my belly was huge. 22 weeks I was at the checkout and a lady said to me, any day now love. my goodness. I'm halfway. So I was really huge. And I also just stacked on the weight everywhere when I was pregnant both times. But yeah, my, my boss's wife, my boss's wife, my husband's boss. Yeah. So she goes, Oh, this baby's too big. Like that's going to ruin you coming out. She's like, you probably should have, you probably should have married someone smaller. Oh my God. People are so ridiculous. Well, I mean, it's probably too late for her to help keep it in mind. Oh my goodness. Yeah, it was just, but you know, it was, I was fortunately able to laugh it off. Oh my gosh. So yeah, there was a bit of that. My family, I found out later were quite nervous for me, but they were really, really like, my mom was really beautiful. She didn't tell me she was nervous. She was like, it's her choice. So she, she was at the birth, but she me afterwards that she'd been really, really a bit like quite stressed about the whole thing. But yeah, I didn't know that. that was good. So she was at the birth of Patty, she? Yeah, we had heaps of Oh really? Who did you have? Who did you invite? We had a bit of a party. We had my mum, Liam's mum, my sister who was eight months pregnant at the time, Julie, who sort of was acting as our daughter. We had our two midwives and we had a student midwife as well who I'd been, she'd been, was doing a double degree nursing midwifery. So she'd been working with me at work and they have to obviously, you know, get up a certain number of births. so she asked, Oh, can I follow you? And I said, sure, but I'm doing a home birth. Is that all right? So that was really good. is that everyone? That's everyone for the first one. I think that's nine people in total. Nine people. Including yourself. Yeah, we have I think we have more at the second. That's so good. And like leading up to like labor, did you have like any like worries or was it like was your pregnancy like pretty chill or what was what was that all like? Yeah, no, it was a pretty good pregnancy. I mean, compared to the stories that you hear. obviously felt pretty nauseous for the first trimester. And no, it was pretty good. I found work really hard when I was pregnant. We just didn't really get breaks very often, or if at all often in a shift we'd go without a break. sort of I was on a pretty busy general medical ward while I was pregnant. It was just sort of felt like I was running the whole shift and not sitting down. And so I ended up finishing at 34 weeks, which I remember feeling really like weak about it. Yeah. Because, know, so many women work right up till baby's born or 38 weeks or, but it got to 34 weeks and I just felt like there's no way I can keep even just getting like, even just showering people and. bending and doing all sorts of stuff. I was like, I just can't do it anymore. It was also summer. And one of our lovely older nurses, she was just like, why don't you just stop? there's no, she goes, you're not going to regret it. Like, you're not going to regret having six weeks of relaxation. was so good. It just felt like it gave me permission to just go, okay, I'm done. And then I spent, yeah, like from 34 weeks to 40 weeks just enjoying summer and swimming in the river and doing nothing really, which was so nice. And I think now, gee, that'd be nice. What a luxury. Yeah, that's amazing. Like, did you have like any signs that your body was preparing for labor or? No, not well, not that I was aware of. that I noticed. I'm sure there were, but I didn't know what I was looking for. And he was, Patty was due on Christmas day. It's due on Christmas day. That's in inverted colors obviously. But, and I went into labor on Christmas day. So that was, well, Christmas night. But yeah, no signs really. I didn't know what I was looking for. And then Christmas night, we were at my parents' place. And after everyone went home and we, I think my dad wanted to watch a movie. So I think everyone else went to bed. I think it was my dad, myself and Liam. And we stayed up watching Notting Hill because it's my dad's favourite movie. And so... Yeah, we were just sitting there watching it. It's getting, I don't know what time it was. And I was sitting on there like the exercise ball thing. and I remember just feeling like had my hands on my belly and I was, I kept thinking, gee, it's just going, like, it's just gone really rock hard, but I could, there's no pain, but it would just go really rock hard kind of intermittently. I thought I didn't, I honestly didn't think anything of it. cannot. I hear you hear all the time that we that women just don't kind of they denial at the start of labor and stuff like this. I don't know. Sometimes I wonder whether we do it because we're so conditioned to not not make a fuss or to like not be don't want to be dramatic don't want to be you know so sometimes I think we just kind of like I think I wonder if I kind of knew but I was yeah just no no it's nothing it's nothing I don't want to be a bother I don't want to It's just a bit silly really with my second eyes like, yep, it's happening. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I is so true. Like so, yeah. I think. Yeah, I, least for me personally, I feel like my hesitation has also been around like the restrictions that are in place. You know, that like a midwife can only really be there for a set amount of hours kind of thing or like, Okay. Yeah. like when my waters, broke or started leaking with Frankie. I knew that I would be on a timer. And so I knew, I'm not going to tell them because I don't want to be on the clock, you know, because I don't believe in the clock. like, doesn't matter because the system works on the clock. I think that also influences, but I also feel like, yeah, I mean, even what you said about working and like feeling like you were weak because you couldn't go on working, whilst you're literally growing and carrying a human being. And also, I mean, that's so typical of nurses, I feel as well as that, like, we're looking after everybody else and we're such, like, givers, but like, we can't even, like, yeah, for both of my babies, I worked up until like 38 weeks. like, you know? Yeah, so I think that that's a really interesting point. I had not really thought about that. Yeah, I don't know. just sometimes think, I feel like so many women are just really like, no, it's nothing, it's nothing, it's nothing at the start. And yeah, I don't know. I wonder if we really were taught to actually listen to our bodies and not be worried about what other people think or worried about bothering someone. maybe we'd just be like, yeah, I'm pretty sure this is labor actually, you guys. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but anyway, I, I, at this point I was pretty oblivious. Um, maybe I was slightly hopeful that it was something, but I didn't really think much of it. And I hadn't realized that Liam was watching me out of the corner of his eyes as well and had realized that I kept putting my hands on my belly sort of. Um, and then he said to me, what's going on? I was like, Oh, my belly just feels really hard. Like every now and then. So he just. quietly started looking at the clock. And I also got up to go to the toilet about eight times just for a wee during the movie. And I didn't even think, that's bit much. I just didn't really think about it. And I kept getting up and my dad would pause the movie and Liam. after like the sixth time or whatever was like stop pausing just keep playing. Because he's thinking we've got to get home. We lived about half an hour away and he's like we should get home soon so we'll finish the movie faster and go home. And I just remember being annoyed and thinking that's rude not pausing for me. Anyway we ended up the movie finished and I went to do goodbyes and Liam was like let's go let's go home now. And it wasn't till we were probably pulling in the driveway at home that it started to feel like, really just like period cramps, but it was the first like pain. And I think that was when I was like, oh, this kind of, I can feel a little bit of pain and Liam's, he just goes, Rach, you're in. Oh, that's so good. And I was like, no, no. But anyway, we went inside and I think I had a bloody show pretty soon after that. really don't know much. I'm not good with the timings of anything because we just didn't really look at the clock and no one mentioned the clock for the whole thing. I just, I'm very fuzzy on the top lines. But I've got a few things from the midwife notes, but just, but not much. And I don't know what's first stage and second stage or. Like really, it's just, to me, was just started around, you know, nine o'clock at night and went for this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. we were home by ourselves for a while and then sometime in the, well, it must've been, I think the early hours of the next morning, maybe. So this is boxing day? That we called, yeah, boxing day, that we called my mum and my sister. Very fuzzy. And eventually everyone was called. And yeah, I don't know what time, by what time everyone was there. And I don't know what time we called the midwives either. you remember, you know, having... quite a few people present. Do you remember being aware of all of the people or like were they physically like, you know, with you or were they kind of just like watching or like was like who was your main support? Do you remember? Mainly was Liam and my mum. And the others pretty much were all pretty in the background. And our midwife. who was our primary midwife, Robbie. She would come in and give me some help when I needed and she helped me with a few different positions and stuff like that. it was really bizarre and very different to my second labor in that I I feel like I was almost out of it the whole time, like in a good way. On another planet, it went for about 19 hours and I don't think I opened my eyes more than two or three times. Wow. Not intentionally, I just was in another zone and someone would, I'd put my arm around someone and walk me to the toilet for a wee and I'd have my eyes closed still and sit down and wait for them walk back. Just really was quite out of it. Just felt like I was on another planet really, which was pretty cool. I do remember feeling shocked by how intense it was. I think that probably, you know, as you said, the videos are not enough preparation to realize how much it can, I should say can hurt because I know that there are people who have pain free births and stuff. was not my experience. But like I'd read stuff about people saying, it's like a marathon. And I thought, that's fine. Like, I mean, I haven't run a marathon. Okay, I've run 20 K's before that's okay. That's a half, almost a half marathon. I can do that. Like, that's fine. No worries. It's a marathon. It's just about endurance and people would say, it's more about pressure than pain and more about endurance than actual. And when I got in, I was like, no, this is yeah, yeah, yeah, this is definitely. But at the same time, there was no one there. making me feel stressed about it. And so I think there was no point that I thought this is not a normal amount of pain. Like it was definitely the worst pain I've experienced, but there was no point that I thought something's wrong or this is not normal. Just because everyone around me was really relaxed. My midwives were really relaxed about it. No one was. doing, you know, cervical checks or telling me how long I had or that they were worried about anything. And so it was just really, it was pretty nice, really. I shouldn't say nice. If you had have asked me in the moment, I wouldn't have said it was nice, but looking back, it actually feels really nice to remember it. Just because it just felt very, I don't know, like surrounded by everyone who was looking after me. so that was, yeah, it was pretty cool. I remember coming out of the toilet at one point and I did open my eyes and saw the sun, like really quite high up in the sky out the kitchen window. And I just remember thinking for a minute, why is the sun up in the middle of the night? Because I still thought it was that first night, but it was sort of more than halfway through the next day. I mean, I just wasn't aware of the time at all, which I'm really glad about because I think it made the whole thing a lot easier actually. Yeah, so that was, it was really good. I look, I got pretty exhausted by the end. And when I hit what I think was probably transition, I got pretty aggro. Yeah. Yeah. And I think I said, I don't know if I said shoot me or I want to die or something really like, just really full on dramatic. just thinking like fantasizing and be like someone just put a gun on my head like that would just be so good right now. And I obviously verbalized this in some way and my midwife was like she was so beautiful she was like just just think about your beautiful little baby and I remember thinking I don't care about my I couldn't care less about my baby. Oh that's brilliant. So look, I think that was probably transition. safe to say transition. Yeah. But no one had it mentioned, you know, for my whole pregnancy or anything, anything about, you know, going to hospital or an epidural or a C-section or anything like that. So I just it wasn't even like it didn't even occur. Yeah. Yeah. I think if we had talked about that at length, we talked about, you know, in an emergency, there's a transfer. Yeah. But if we had had that conversation, at length, I think that might have been an option in my mind like, let's go. But it just didn't occur to me, which I think was really good as well. yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that was, yeah, was great. can see, like you can, I think, like for people listening, like as well, you know, that you can see that in a hospital setting, if you're in this intensity, and if you call it pain, pain, or whatever, that you're literally saying, you know, for me personally, I remember definitely thinking at the end, if I ever have to do this again, I'm just having a C-section. And you know, you're thinking of saying, just shoot me. Shoot me? Like if somebody So if someone had have said, do you want a C-section? Yeah. Obviously I would have said yes. Yeah, you would have been pretty god damn tempting, you know? Yeah. like it just you can see how you're so vulnerable in that state. Yeah, I think that's really funny though. Yeah. my goodness. know. Were you did you use like a birth pool or like a tent or anything like that? Yep. So we had a birth pool set up in the lounge room from I don't know, pretty early on. It was just, we were in a little tiny one bedroom rental. So it kind of took up half the living space, the birth pool. And people would come over and be like, what's the story? Which is pretty funny. And yeah, I used the tens, which I didn't use it the second time because I didn't find it helpful, but I know lots of people swear by it. So I think it's just a each to their own kind of thing. found that I got, even though I don't think it was making any real difference, I got like, I kind of fixated on it and got a bit obsessive about it. So each time a contraction would come, I remember if I couldn't find the button, I'd be like to leave. Where is it? Where's the button? Where's the button? Just cause I had to find it and then pressing it and almost not really feeling it. But it just became something that I was trying to control. And I think that's the other thing is the temptation to just want to try and control it. can come out in any way, in whatever way it's given to us. So maybe in hospital, if someone had said, you know, should I do a check and see how far along you are? It's like, yes, even though I didn't want that, I probably would have jumped at that. was jumping at the, you know, desperately wanting to push the button and just control something. Yeah. But no one, you know, I said to Robbie at one point, our midwife, said to her, or how much longer. And, you know, she could have said, well, we can check and have a look, but she just said, we can never tell, right? We can never tell. And again, I remember thinking, well, you're not a very good... And actually, I'm sure she could tell roughly how much longer, but it was just the best answer, really. It was just, it was with so much love and it was just, doesn't matter. It's not about that, you know? And when I said I can't do it, they were like, well, you are doing it. You know, you are. It was just, they just, I don't know, they said all the right things for me and they were so loving and it was just really beautiful. So I think it was about, gee, I don't know. I got really, really, really exhausted at one point and our midwives suggested that everyone pop out for a while, just go down the street. And they tucked Liam and I into bed and they left as well. So it was just us home, which was really nice. And the goal was that I sleep, which I think I was kind of having like little micro sleeps in between contractions, but they were pretty. pretty frequent. And I remember every time I woke up with a contraction, like hitting Liam and being like, up, I'm doing this, you're doing that too. And then just out of nowhere after this sleep, I said to Liam, sort of sat up and was like, I need to get in the pool. So I had been in the pool earlier, so got back in the pool. And then I don't know what it was, but somehow I just had this sense of urgency that I wanted everyone to come back. Well, actually just that I wanted my mom to come back. Liam took that as obviously all the people who were meant to be there. But I was like, where's mom? And so the midwives arrived back first and I just kept going. Where's mum? Where's mum? And yeah, Lisa, one of the midwives is really beautiful. And she obviously just recognized that I just really needed to know. So she called mum and she was like, you know, she's 10 minutes away. And then she'd say, she's eight minutes away. She's five minutes away. She's pulling in the driveway. She's coming in the door. Open your eyes. There's your mum. So was really lovely. And then when she got there, I think I was just like, right, good, good, baby, I can do this. And my waters broke, just going back and forth, my waters broke, I think about an hour before he was born in the pool. So must've got in about an hour before. And my waters broke pretty quickly after that, which I just felt as this like almighty pop under the water. It felt like someone had. like popped a balloon inside me, which is, guess exactly. Yeah, that's pretty much what it But it was just the most bizarre feeling and I didn't know what it was or what to expect. And I was like, something popped. They were like, good. So, yeah. And then after that, to be honest, it got way easier. Like, I know that's not how it is for everyone, but that, I guess, second stage for me was really, really quite relaxing. And I, it's so hard to explain this. I've tried to explain this to people. I know people talk about like not intentionally pushing, your body pushing. And that happened with my second, but with Paddy. I mean, I guess my body did push, but it was, couldn't feel even my body pushing. Like I could feel him just coming down and out. And it was like, just stopped doing anything when just sat there and he just came out. And yeah, the pain for that whole second stage seemed to go away. The pain of the contractions. And I mean, in the video, I'm smiling. Wow. Sitting there like I look kind of stoned. wow. Interesting. And yeah, super weird. And I still don't know what exactly was going on there. But his head came out. And this bit wasn't wasn't particularly pleasant. I did tear pretty badly. So when his head came out, I felt that. And you can see I'm sort of smiling and looking all blissful. And then I just kind of screamed for a minute. But it's so quick, you know? And then that bit's over and you kind of stop feeling it or thinking about it while the rest of baby is born. I say that because someone said to me when I was pregnant, I felt the tear so badly. And I just remember thinking, Oh my gosh. My mom had told me, you know, all of my life, oh, but you know, you're not thinking about that. You don't even really feel it. Don't worry about it. then she says, oh, I felt the moment that I tore. And I just was like, oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But so many women, really it's over so fast. so many women do say that, oh, I was sure I tore, I thought I tore. I felt like I tore. I was really worried that, you know, this and that. And then it actually turns out that they either didn't tear or what they thought had happened wasn't even as bad as they had thought, you know, I'm sure it goes the other way as well. But yeah, think that yeah, I think in birth stories and like just like amongst us in the community, like when you're telling stories that they can be by a bit of focus on like, yeah, this fear around tearing, but yeah, like you're not sitting there being like, my God, like, because your baby's being born, like. Right? know. Yeah. Yes. And I think especially if you've got that oxytocin, you're in the right environment, then you know, that happens. And then it's like, well, across that bridge later, I'm having a baby now and you've, and it was like, it was great. and he came out and my midwives were sitting off to the side. and everyone was just sort of sitting a bit back from the pool and I picked him up and put him on my chest and he was like, he was a bit of a go-getter from the start. He was sort of like came out with his arms like fists punching in the air and looking around and which is the opposite to my second but that's their personalities as well. But yeah, I mean, but he didn't cry straight away. He had the One of them had the cord around the neck, but I can't remember which one. I think it was him. Yeah. I think it was him. So it leaped it off. And, you know, he looked quite blue. And I think if I hadn't watched quite a few birth videos beforehand, I might have got freaked out. he was totally fine. And yeah, he was very vigorous, even though he didn't cry. was looking around, it was really cool. And then we just sat in the pool for maybe an hour or so and just held him and found out that he was a boy and told everyone his name and then people brought me food and I ate this beautiful lamb stew in the pool. Actually, we've got this photo. think maybe when Liam was holding Patty and my mom's like spoon feeding me and then his mom comes over and is spoon feeding him. is photo. that's beautiful. That's very funny. As you should be. That was very funny. and yeah, so was really lovely, but after a little while I was pretty uncomfortable from the tear. and was losing. I had a bit of blood just from the wound, not from placenta or anything. Placenta. And so, I mean, they can't tell in the pool what it's from, but they figured that out later. I think it was after an hour, they suggested, well, yeah, they could tell I was bit uncomfortable and the water sort of going a bit cooler. Totally, And so they suggested that I stand up and we'll see if... the placenta will come out and it was really, really cool. My midwife said, we're just gonna squeeze a spot on your shoulders and your placenta will come out. And I remember just thinking, well, that's kind of funny. They're pretty confident about that. It wasn't like, we'll do a pressure point and we'll see if it helps. They were like, we'll just do this and your placenta will come out. And they did and it came straight What? my gosh. We're injecting women all the time and there's apparently this pressure point that just drops it. Oh my goodness. Which is pretty cool. I don't know if it works every time, but it works for you. yeah, yeah. Surely that's step one before the synthetic oxytocin surely. There's so many things like that. Oh my goodness. I'm a bit wild. So yeah. So that was. Yeah, that's really good. And then they helped me out of the pool. And I remember the midwife said to our student midwife, she was like, Can you help her over to the couch? And something she said that just really stuck with me and made me feel like very cared for was I mean, you'd know as a nurse, we're always told if someone falls, don't catch them. You know, step out of the way, don't catch, which totally makes sense. We've got to protect our backs and all that sort of stuff. But she said, don't let her fall. If she falls, catch her. And she goes, we're not in the business of letting women drop to the floor. And I just remember thinking, my gosh, they would catch me. So beautiful. Yeah. And so yeah, walked over to the couch and had the placenta in a bowl and then think first, by that point they realized that the bleeding was coming from the tear. So I think it was about 300 mils from the tear that they estimated. So they were like, we should probably repair it now or examine it. And so we did that and they were really lovely and they let me have putty on my chest. after sort of partway through, I just couldn't do it anymore. was in quite a bit of pain and I was just passed him to my sister. And there's a very beautiful photo. She's got an eight month pregnant belly and Patty's sitting on her belly and she's got the bowl of placenta here. It's a gorgeous photo, but she's so squeamish and it was like a 40 degree day. And she said afterwards, I'm sitting there pregnant squeamish in 40 degree heat. We had no air conditioning with this bowl of placenta there. She's like, it should have been really lovely, but I was just trying not to be sick. my gosh. But you know, was fine by me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was quite oblivious. Poor thing. And yeah, so the midwives asked if we had some like something we could use for better lighting to do the suturing. Liam goes out to the shed and brings in his big painters. Which are like extremely, very to like theatre lighting. So. I think the repair took about two hours. It was pretty, it's pretty complex. And it wasn't like third degree or anything. was the tear, the perineal tear was only first degree, I think, but then like tore at the sides, both labia and then like literal hood tour and internally as well. So was pretty messed up. But just so for everyone listening, my midwives said it's a very unusual type of tear. They have only seen it one other time and my mum had the same type of tear with her first. So I suspect it's probably something genetic or anatomical or something. Whenever I say, really don't want to scare Disclaimer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That it was unusual and that, know, statistically you are far less likely to tear at home. Yeah, yeah. And the best thing about the fact that I taught at home rather than in hospital was I got this beautiful care and two hours of like these two beautiful midwives, like working so hard to work out the best way to put everything back together. And they were so beautiful and they were talking about, you know, being mindful of like how they put it back together so that it wouldn't be uncomfortable, so that it would, you know, wouldn't affect pleasure. Like they were just really like beautiful about it. And my mom was sitting next to me. She was all teary while they were stitching me up. And she just, cause she had the same tear, but in hospital, private obstetrician who yeah I mean her tear has caused her lots of complications in her life and she just was crying she just said to me I would have remortgaged my house for this kind of care like if I knew that this was available like yeah so that was yeah it was really beautiful and then the postpartum care for me around the tear was so beautiful as well. I had a, like I did have a pretty rough recovery because of it. but they were just, like, I've never felt so well cared for that it just, I don't know, it just, it kind of canceled out the, the discomfort and the pain and the stress of it was just like countered with this. like incredible care. it was just so anyway, yeah, but like, also that like, well, yeah, number one, you're less likely to tear, like in a physiological birth. But number two, like, like, if you if you're gonna tell you're gonna tear, like, it's like, it's kind of like, you can try and stop it or prevent it or reduce the chance of a particular type of guess. But like, if it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen. And like the care that you want, like that's not it's not because of home birth that you had a tear. But the care like that could have easily have happened in hospital as well. And the care would have been, yeah, like, like your mum had reflected like so completely different. Stitch you up. Yeah, here's some frozen pads out. probably a bunch of randoms as well. Yeah. Yeah. So that's That's amazing. then yeah, a bunch of randoms as well for the follow up and the postpartum care and the care of it as well. If you were in hospital. I mean, I would have probably been taken to the theatre for it as well for the repair and then not seeing who knows how long I would have been between seeing putty again. Yeah, just so many things. It just really lovely staying there in my lounge room. Yeah. And then they tucked me in on the couch and helped me with the feed and we sort of tried a bit of the breast crawl, which He made it to the breast and then just fell asleep. How much did he weigh? He was just over four kilos. 4.1 maybe. Just over. So yeah, it was really, really lovely. And then so you had quite a gap between Patty and Johnny. did you have any hesitations in choosing home birth again or was it always gonna be a home birth? It was always gonna be home birth. Yeah, think once you've done it once, don't think, I don't know that I've ever heard of someone who's gone for a hospital birth after a Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Unless there's some sort of very serious complication. Yeah. It's, yeah, I couldn't, I just couldn't imagine it. Well, I shouldn't say that. I did say... at one point, I was like, well, we know what we're doing. Like we could save ourselves some money going and just tell them to kind of F off and leave us alone. But also, there's that vulnerability. And if you're in there, like we were talking about before, I don't want to have to fight. Yeah, I don't want to have people coming in and going, Oh, yeah, I know. But we just like to check and then having to have that conversation. I wanted to be able to do that whole eyes closed, not thinking about anything. you know, just protect that space again. who knows what I would have said if I was in there and someone was offering things or like, I'd like to think I would have said no. It's not your space and you can put as many signs on the door as you want and you can tell all the midwives and all the obstetricians and all the registrars and all the cleaners and all the students, you can tell them don't come in. But at the end of the day, if someone's concerned, they're a hundred percent are going to come in and they are a hundred percent going to make calls based on their observations, not on what you're saying or what your wishes are. But in a home birth, it's your space. You're in charge. Like if you really wanted to, you could tell everybody to leave. Like it's your house. Absolutely. Absolutely. And so had you moved? away like by this point. Yep. So we were, we were up here by then. and one of my, like, guess, caveats for moving was like, we have to make sure there's a good home birth midwife in the area. or see whether Robbie and Lisa can travel. And they were so, so lovely when we talked to them about it. And they said, you know, yep, we will like, you need to let us know. way in advance, obviously, but we can. But of course, there's a big chance they wouldn't make it as well, which probably definitely wouldn't bother me now. Probably at the time, I felt more like I needed them there. But there's only one home birth midwife in the whole of Northeast Victoria. So that choice was easy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We ended up deciding like we'll let Let's just go with the midwife is local that way. We'll also meet some other home birth parents Maybe like, you know, we've had good beings. We'll just go with with her. So we did that and Yeah, that was good. I think the last episode of yours that I heard and I'm not sure if it was, I haven't been doing them in order because I'm sorry, but I think it might've been recent. think it might've been, her name might've been Joey. yeah. Or it might've been someone else who said this. I might be mixing stories, but was talking about a midwife that she didn't connect amazingly with. I think it might've been Joey. So it was kind of a similar situation, like, you know, have a lot of respect for this midwife and clinically very competent. Definitely couldn't fault her, but it just didn't feel the same as, you know, as with my first. And I think as the pregnancy went on, I started to feel more like, well, maybe I don't actually need a new wife. And my only concern with that, I would have 100 % just free birthed. And I mean, Where we were before in the Yarra Valley, were sort of 40 minutes from a hospital. Here we're two minutes from a hospital. Even though we've moved. But yeah, so I mean, I would have felt very comfortable with it, except my concern was if I tore again, I just didn't want to go into hospital afterwards with a tear, potentially a complex one. I didn't trust them to repair it. To be honest, I didn't want to deal with people, you know, scoffing a bit about a home birth that needed to come in. And I know that they don't always do that, but there's definitely plenty of stories where that's case. And I just didn't want to get up and leave my house after having a baby. So we stuck with our midwife and we ended up saying we'd really like to just try and do it on our own. And she was really respectful of that. And We said, I think it was probably about 30 weeks or something that we said, we've got a little small like front lounge area at the front of the house. And we sort of said, how would you feel about us setting up in there, know, setting you guys up in there, and then we'll just call you in if we need you. I think I said when we need you. And she was like, sure. So we did that. And that kind of, yeah, I was really happy with that. And in my mind, you know, I might've just called them in for a peri-check at the end or suturing or, so it was really, really lovely that she was like, well, that's what you want. That's fine. and yeah, I mean, it ended up being that we, I asked her to come in once in the lab. because I just, I think it was probably transitioned and I was like, what's going on? How much longer, you know, to ask all before that you had quite a few people at Johnny's birth as well? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so Johnny's we had. Again, my mum, Liam's mum and my sister, we didn't have a student midwife this time and because our two midwives were not really in the room for most of it. sort of not really there. So it didn't feel like, I guess, more, but it was. And then we had a really good friend of mine and my brother who was doing, he's a videographer. amazing. Yeah. Because I was like, actually do want a good video this time. his wife, who does a bit of photography sort of as a hobby and she's amazing. So they do the videography and the photography, was really cool to have. And yeah, they like, a lot of people were like, your brother at your birth. But he's just like, he's just gorgeous and very respectful and lovely. And they were just very in the background. And it comes back to like that. you know, sexualization of women's bodies. Like he's not there. Like he's there to do a job. to video. I think, That's amazing. I like, he's like, oh, this is amazing. Like I know what to expect now. Like when they have, yeah, yeah. It's like, this is so good. And so my sister, my sister had his So his wife, Georgia, who did the photos, my sister then had her at both of her home births as well. So she's now been to three home births. And she's like, I'm definitely having a home Which is just cool. Love a good con birth. Yeah. yeah, was a bit of a party again, but they were all coming from like three hours away. So it was also like, we didn't know if they'll make it. And everyone says, Oh, your second baby comes quick, which it didn't really, not that quick. Um, so, and Julie as well. Okay. So had like roughly nine people not include, well, not including you, but not including the midwives. So 11 people in the house. Oh, but then also was Patty around? was Patty? Yeah, actually 12 people in the house. Did you do any preparation with Patty about like being present for the birth? Yeah, yeah, we did heaps. Yeah, we did lots and lots of just lots of talking to him about it. He was he was three and half when Johnny was born. We watched heaps of videos together and just talked about them. He became pretty obsessed with birth, which was very adorable. And a friend crocheted this beautiful doll that gives birth and then has has a placenta and everything. you play with this doll and we did like act out the birth. And we did like we set up the pool as well and like I showed him what noises I might make and we just talked heaps about it. And he was really, really like, he was very prepared for it. I think so it just didn't faze him at all, which was really good. He was very excited. And he would talk anyone's ear off about what was going to happen, how it was all going to go. And he was like, there's going to be blood. It's good birth blood. And he, what would he say? He would say, it's good blood. Like a period, not like, Hurt blood. So sweet. The new generation. know. Yes. That's so good. Yeah. So he was pretty all over it actually. And he would, I've got this, I've got hilarious footage of him in one of his nap times. And I just was peeking in because I could hear weird noises. And then I poked my camera in the door and he's sitting there. He's got his doll. and he's like pretending to birth it and he's like holding it down between his legs and he's like bringing it out while he's grunting and moaning. And he would like act out these little births all the time. was very cute. Yeah, so he was very all over it, which was good. And I think, so my mum and my sister were kind of looking after him and I don't know when they... got him out, was nighttime when I went to labor, was about eight o'clock. So he was in bed around How many weeks roughly were you? Oh, yeah, so I was 41 and four, 41 and four, yeah. So I thought, oh, Patty came on time, I'll probably come early or on time again, but it doesn't work like that. So yeah, it just kept ticking and I remember getting a bit... I'm sick of it. And I had really had really, like, really psyched myself up to be like, I'll go to 43 weeks. I don't care. I heard about a friend of a friend who'd gone to 43 and six, I think. And I was like, yeah, I'm not gonna rush. I'm not gonna be too keen. Doesn't matter, whatever. But by the time I hit about 41 weeks, I was like, no. I'm so done and I did all the, then I started doing the gutter walking and the, and I had sworn to myself that I wouldn't do it. I'd just relax and let it be, but I did it anyway. So, I got sick of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I really like, towards the end of my pregnancy, I was keeping my house like fastidiously clean. like because I just wanted it to be clean when I went into labor. And of course I've got a three and a half year old. So I a big part of it was I was just sick of chasing after him and trying to put everything away straight away. And I was like, hurry up baby. So yeah, when, would have been, oh, actually I'll quickly say I had an iron infusion at about 38 weeks, I think. And had to go to because it was so late i left it so late went to a little tiny local hospital up in Yackandanda for that, or local clinic. So drove sort of an hour for this little place that did an iron infusion. And then while I was having it, it felt like they stranded me because I was having the infusion and this obstetrician comes in who I hadn't booked in to see. And she's like, right. When we do iron infusions, we always come and have a consultation with you. We always make sure you see an obstetrician when we do that. And I'm sort of like, all right. I mean, sure, I didn't sign up for this, but okay. So she comes in and she just starts like palpating my belly and everything and sort of like, okay. And she goes, gee, it's huge. And I said, yeah, I have pretty big babies. That's fine. She just went really, she was quite like forceful almost and she was like, well, how big was your first? And I said, just over four kilos. And she goes right at home. And I said, yeah. And she goes, so shoulder dystocia. And I was like, no, no, it was fine. So she just kind of, can see her just like trying to sort of plant little bits of fear. first, like that could have really freaked me out. She's like, Oh, well, it's measuring like three weeks ahead. And I was like, that's fine. Whatever. So anyway, she ended up kind of just giving up and leaving, but I just thought that kind of stuff could really like shake people like that. Yeah. And you just got there. I know for an eye. For an eye, you should. You some unsolicited advice or opinion from And like, that's not evidence. Like what you're saying is not evidence based. at all. And actually I read a study a while back. It's just... The outcome of the study was that... big babies don't cause more complications, but when the provider thinks it's going to be a big baby, there are more complications. obviously interventions that lead to complications. even if, cause you know, obviously on scans, they're so inaccurate and people get told they're to have big babies all the time and they're not big at all. But those, you know, they put all of the ones where they were expecting big babies in you know, a research group and they found that there were more complications in those ones than when they weren't expecting them, even though sometimes they weren't expecting the big babies and they were big. so it's really just all about, you fear. you're mentally, you're trying, you're trying to like fix like something that you've predicted. Like nobody can tell the future. Like nobody actually can tell you 100 % certain anything. no. And how many weeks did you say you were when you had that experience? I think it was 38 weeks. Yeah. But I mean, yeah, you know, I think once you've had one home birth, you kind of like go well. Yeah. And maybe she recognized that as well. She's like, meh, she's lost cause. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not going to win with this wasting my time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. So. Anyway, she kind of gave up and off she went. or she did ask if we could do a, uh, or not ask. She was like, okay, well I'd like to do, um, uh, third trimester ultrasound. Um, and I was like, no, I only had, I only had the 12 week, think. weeks. Obstetricians must be very stressed people. Oh my goodness. I know. Actually I had, I saw. because with my first as well, they do a backup hospital booking in case you're transferred. Just so they have your details and stuff. I, did I do it second time? I think I must have. But the first time with Patti, I remember going to that and so you see an obstetrician because you're a home birth. So obviously they've got to make sure a doctor sees you. so the doctor was just terrified. Like I could just tell. She was so stressed the whole time. She was stressed that I hadn't done the GBS thing. She was stressed that I hadn't done the glucose tolerance test. She said, well, look, we just don't know anything about your baby or you. And I said, what would you like to know? I can tell you. She says, well, we don't know whether you've got gestational diabetes. And I said, well, I don't have any symptoms of it. So, you know, it's probably fine. And my idea... actually did the HbA1c with my first. And I was like, that's fine. So probably not. And I said, I don't really mind if I do, because if he has low sugars when he's born, we'll just make sure we get some good breast milk into him. And I've got a bit of colostrum if we need it and he'll be fine. And she was just like freaking out. And this whole time we're having this conversation, she's trying to find, she's got the Doppler and she's trying to find his heartbeat. She can't find it the whole time. like, must've been 10 minutes of her trying and she just can't find it. And then at the end of the conversation, she goes, where do your midwives usually find the heartbeat? And I was like, just down here. And she goes, there it is. I was like, you're an obstetrician. My midwives would put it on. They'd pretty much look at me, put it on and get it first time every time. That's the beauty of continuity of care. Like you get to know each other and they get to know your body and like. my goodness. Wild, absolutely wild out there. Pretty intense. Did you have any signs of labor in the lead up to labor with Johnny? Yeah, I think I had a couple of days of sort of Braxton Hicks, if we're going to call them that. Tightenings, I guess. like just quite painless, but just felt the timing and I kind of knew what that was this time. But when it started, I was like, right, here we go. And then it wasn't. But yeah, a few days of that and it would happen whenever I would go for a walk. And I was getting pretty frustrated by this point. But I think I do think a part of it is with when you've already got one child, you've really, I think somewhere in there you're waiting for the right moment that they're ready and they're, I don't know, probably often in bed or, you know, you've just, you don't have this list of things a mile long to do. Whereas with Patti, nothing I had to do by that point. Finished work and relaxed for six weeks. So yeah, and then it was, probably about eight o'clock at night. And I'd been for a big walk that afternoon on my own. I'd said to Liam, I'm going, I need a walk. And I'd walked like all around the town, just like everywhere. And I just felt like this, I just felt like I needed to take my shoes off in the park and just like walk along by the river. I just had this like really, I don't know, this moment. And then walked all the way home and got Paddy into bed. And it was probably about. then I said, I'm going outside to walk in the gutters because this has to happen tonight. I'm really done. And so I did that and I'm sure it was happening anyway because it like straight away when I came inside from that, I think it was really just the fact we put Patty to bed and he was asleep and then friends dropped in. which was lovely and they were sort of standing in our kitchen just talking to us and I'm standing there thinking, I know what this is. And I sort of pause talking for a while and they were like, are you okay? And it's like, yep, yep, no, fine. Just a bit uncomfortable. But I just really, like I knew at that point, I didn't want to say it to them. I just was like, no, I need to just be with us. And they, I think they cleared on and they ended up leaving. And then, yeah. Pretty quickly, it was on, but I was a bit unsure whether I should call. It was really hard to know because everyone was three hours away and sort of we thought, we need to call them as soon as things are happening. But at the same time, if they come three hours and it's not, that kind of is an ideal. I said, just hold off just until we're like really, really certain. I was pretty confident, but I thought I could very well go to bed and then wake up in the morning. You do hear of that happening. so I tried to lie down and when I couldn't sleep and I was like, nah, this is being interrupted by contractions. was like, no, okay, that's it. Nice little, I'm all right. Call them. And he goes, already have. yeah, he's all over it. Don't tell him I said that. But yeah, so then we had, sort of just went around the house and we had heaps of candles everywhere and lit all the candles and we just set it all up and brought the pool into the living room. And it was really nice because we had those few hours with just us as well. And then everyone started to arrive, which was really fun. I really like it. I know that I know that people talk about birth being unobserved and like that's really true. But I think if you've got people who you feel that safe with and that comfortable with, then it can be as though it's unobserved as well. so, yeah, and I also like find it like the excitement of that really helps me too. Having them over. And of course, knowing that like they're staying as well for a couple of days because, you know, these are people that live three hours away who I love to be with. So they're all, you know, arriving one by one and yeah, it was really good. Again, I don't know times really, but I definitely was not in that really blissed out state this time. I was... feel like I was a bit of an angry birth, angry laborer this time. Yeah, yeah, I don't know really what I was angry at, but I just, I do wonder if it's a little bit of being just more confident as a person. You know, I've been a mother for three and a half years at this point and you kind of just, I think it kind of toughens you up a bit and makes you a bit less worried about, I don't know. people's perceptions and I just really was like, this hurts and I'm gonna let everyone know. And let everyone know exactly what I wanted and how I wanted it. And if this person was touching me in this way and I didn't like it, was like, no, this arm, no. Very assertive. And... Liam said he was sort of like doing that light touch on my back and he said if he got below a certain point like halfway down my back I would just like slap his hand away. And I remember the feeling of it feeling like I could feel that like vibrating all through inside around my pelvis around the baby every time there was any touch around my hips or anything. And like people walking on the floor. I don't know if he was maybe in it unusual position or something because like people walking on the floor next to the pool like just the vibration of that was quite painful. could feel everything for a while and not for all of it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, super weird. Just like all the sensation was really heightened and I did say at one point, can everyone just go I said to Liam, can you just get everyone to go into the other room for a bit just because the was literally just the movement was feeling really, really horrible. And then I asked the midwife to come in and she was in with us for probably, I don't know, maybe, maybe half an hour to an hour. And she helped me. I was like, okay, what positions do I need to get into because I really just need. this, I don't think I articulate it like this, but I remember thinking I just need this baby to move because however it is, it's really, really uncomfortable. Yeah. And so she helped me with a few positions, which were good. And then I was like, cool, I'm done now. Like, I don't know how I said it, but somehow politely was like, we don't need you anymore. she was good about that. I, in both my labors as well, I threw up a lot. Yeah. And in Johnny's with Johnny's I was checking my like doing, was putting my finger inside and checking because I just really wanted to know, like have an idea of whether I seeing anything. What's happening. Yeah. Which I think I was just a bit, yeah, a bit more aware. I, I think I definitely preferred being a bit less aware with Patty, but I also think there's an element of, you know, being for me, I think like. once you're a mum, you're just always gonna have an awareness that you maybe wouldn't have just in general. And so that's just how it was. But I remember checking lots and I could feel, at one point I could feel, I don't remember what I could feel, but I could feel something that gave me some idea of, know, okay, baby's there, but it went for hours without moving. Like without moving down at all. And I just was getting really, stop. This baby is not coming down. And that just was really, really frustrating me. Just did heaps of different positions. And eventually he did because they do. Yeah, that's how it works if you wait long enough. I But yeah, I think, you know, in hospital and the same as with Patti's in a way, because while I wasn't checking myself internally, like The labor stalled for, I don't know, a while in the middle there and in hospital they would have hung up centosanine and because... or least been like applying pressure being like, come on, let's move things You're on this clock, we work on a clock here. Absolutely. And so, yeah, and with Johnny's it was just, it like, there's just no change. was like, this is driving me nuts. But then same kind of thing, went for a lie down. was 19 hours, Johnny's was 10 hours in total. So we almost halved it, which is pretty good really. But I was definitely hoping for a bit quicker. But yeah, I went for a lie down at one point, tried to lie down. Someone suggested it and it was the last thing I felt like doing, but I was like, try it. I should try and get some sleep. Just, was like within five minutes of lying down, it was the same kind of thing. I just shot up and was like, right, I'm getting in the pool. it's on. and I was, I was really scared about tearing. of course. Yeah. Not about actually like the moment of tearing, just that recovery. Cause it was pretty, yeah, it's pretty rough. And then also having like, like two little kids, like a baby and you know, a three-nager to like look after as well. Like, yeah. So that was definitely a big fear. And I did lots of work in the pregnancy to try and sort of get to a point where I was okay with that. And I sort of initially was like trying to do a lot of, I'm not going to tear, I'm not going to tear. And then I got to the point where I was like, I might tear. And that's actually okay because I am okay now. And I will have good care afterwards. you know, I think I got to the point at one point and I just said, well, like, would I do it again to have Patty? Like, if I got the choice to go back, would I go, oh, yeah, I'll have that tear again to have him. I was like, yeah, of course I So. That was probably, be honest, made me go, okay, it might happen. Just have to, you know, deal with it when it comes. But I also really did like, I don't know, I had kind of a plan of like, I might try this position and to try and avoid it. And yeah, when it, my beautiful midwife Robbie from Patty's birth called me about two or three days before Johnny was born. And she goes, I'm just ringing to tell you that I had a dream last night that you had your baby and you didn't tear and you were super excited. And I just like, I don't know something about that. was like, okay. And you know, she could have been too. like concerned to say that in case I did tear, but she was just like, I just wanted to tell you that this is what I dreamt. And yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was really cool as well. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, I was then in the pool and It was really different. was sort of leaning, kneeling up and leaning on the side of the pool and totally different feeling to with, totally different feeling to with Patty. I didn't feel like the ring of fire or anything with Patty, even though you would think I would have. But with Johnny, definitely felt that and definitely felt like I didn't intentionally push at all. Definitely no effort there, but I could feel my body like. squeezing him out, like pushing so hard. Only a few times really, but yeah, the feeling was really intense and I was quite taken aback by it I hadn't expected that. I was holding on to the front of my vulva, like squeezing it together, like so hard. Like I put fingernail dints. Oh my goodness. Because I was like, I just don't want to tear at the front again. Like I was like, yeah, that's fine. Like I was like, people tear at the back. That's normal. I can do it back. And I was like, the whole time he was born. the poor kid had to come out like this much smaller. Shutting off half of the, but I was just like, I know I'm like the force that they can come out with like. I was like really happy to use all my strength. It's so bizarre that I was doing But I was just holding it. was like, no. And he came out and it was amazing. Liam said he thought that he had his hand by his face, his fist by his face. But there was no midwife in the room. No one really looking. Other than Liam who was behind me. But afterwards looking at the video, my brother must have been there because the video is like right there so can see. It does look like, it's hard to tell under the water but it does look like he's got a fist there so I like to tell myself that anyway. Yeah and especially, and so did you tear? Nope not at all. Not even a graze. Especially if, yeah, mean, absolutely claim that. Yeah, I'm gonna claim it because Liam thinks it and it looks like it in the video. I sent it to Robbie and I was like, do you think this is that? She's like, it does look like it could be that. So I'm just gonna claim that. Yes, yes, absolutely. Wow. So that was pretty cool. Yeah, didn't tear at all, not even a graze. Although I did kind of like... deep my fingernails in so hard at the front that I of had a bit of a bruise there. But no regrets, no regrets. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And brought him up and... I don't, yeah, I still can't remember which one had the cord around their neck. It might've been him. But I remember looking at him under the water for a minute and I just wanted to like have a look. And I think I knew a bit more now and I knew I could sort of just hold him there and look. And I had planned to hold him there for a bit longer and really take a minute to look, but I was just too excited to pick him up. picked him up. And this is where I think like if I was, in my kind of nurse brain, I would have probably really freaked out. But I think like instincts are amazing. Didn't even really know I had them. But we're just really not taught to listen to our instincts at all, taught that we have instinct. Exactly. And picked him up. And he was completely different to Patty. He was just completely floppy. Like the video is quite probably quite confronting for most people. He's like, can't explain, absolutely no muscle tone, just head hanging, hanging, like completely white, which is kind of worse than blue. And you know, my hubby's a paramedic and he like- Oh my gosh, I feel like that was an important thing to put in at the very I just realized that, sorry. that's so good. So the paramedic and he was born home. That's wow. Yeah, I think everyone at his works sick of him talking about Home Earth and how amazing it is. That's so good. He should like go and talk to like all of these different stations and be like, this is how you look after people in labor and yeah. my God. Well, just done. Oh, he's just done some birth, sorry, it's my sister calling. He's just done some birth education stuff with, I think it might've been the firees, I think. Like a training day thing. He's super excited, but of course it's kind of like, it's pretty tricky what he can get away with saying and what he can't, but he kind of goes for it anyway. And then asks for forgiveness later. Yeah, very into very passionate about it. But he said, like, even for him being really confident with birth. Seeing Johnny born was like, pretty hard, because he could see that I was okay with it. And so he was trying to tell himself, she's fine with it. She's obviously knows what she's talking about. But in the video, you can hear him going, like, sort of rubbing his back a little bit and going a little cough. please come on, little cough. And I'm just saying he's fine, he's fine. And he hadn't like made a squeak, made a sound, nothing. Just, he was definitely a little bit nervous. And he said afterwards, yeah, look, my heart was going a little bit. But he was really calm about it as well. Cause he just was like, well, I had to take the cues from you and you were saying it was fine. And yeah, but he said, look in like, as an anvod, that's what we'd call a flat baby, which, you know, that requires definitely requires oxygen, possibly resuscitation, like this is like, not a good situation, cord cut over here, all the things like, you know, after probably, it was probably it was, it would have been at least a full minute and just completely flat. And then he just kind of squeaked and opened his eyes. And he was fine. Like it was just a transition that's turned on and know and he had all this oxygenated blood going into and through the cord. So he didn't really need to breathe straight away and he didn't and he just was really slow to wake up and he's just his personality has been a much more Malo kid than our first. he just does everything in his own time and he's just a lot more relaxed and yeah, it's just It was just what he was like. yeah, yeah, yeah. But I still can't believe because also as a nurse, like I would have seen that baby as well. You know, we did. I worked in theater for quite a while and lots of C-sections. And, you know, if we pulled that baby out, that would have been alarm bells emergency, you know, and it was like, yeah. But he was just fine. And I just I still can't believe that somehow. I was that confident that he was fine. Like there wasn't even in my head, there was nothing that made me even think there's anything wrong. I was just like, I almost couldn't work out why Liam was, I was just like, he's fine. He's fine. And I just think if we are allowed to or taught to listen to our instincts, like it's very likely that. a lot of babies who supposedly need all this intervention as soon as they're born, maybe don't need any of it, especially if we leave the cord intact. And my niece who was born in hospital, my sister's little girl at the same time, or five weeks after Patty, my sister was very, very firm on she wanted delayed cord clamping and everything, but they've completely ignored her and she's got... video footage and she's saying, don't cut it, don't cut it, don't cut it. And they cut it. Literally while she's saying, don't cut it. And they passed her, her baby for a second. And then, and she's screaming like baby is screaming in the video, but because they'd seen some meconium, they suctioned, took baby, suctioned her in her mouth. And then they were like, vigorously rubbing her down with this towel, which I just think on their skin that's only ever felt water must feel like sandpaper, like must feel awful. And you just think... She didn't need suctioning. She didn't need, she was screaming. But anyway. It's crazy like how different the experiences are. like, again, it goes back to that clock thing is like everything's based on a clock and like these kind of, you know, it's a pretty magical thing, but like, seriously, like it's, you know, there's so much that you can't. control and there's so much that you can't even like explain really like there's some things that we still don't understand why it happens like that. I mean like the variation in labor like not no no labor is ever the same. Like it's just yeah, I mean that is magic like and I think yeah the respect that like yeah a baby's not gonna instantly be born and immediately like you know, it's not a baby giraffe. It's just not gonna like get up and start running around. that's not what we are, you know? It takes a moment. And even like with like baby animals and stuff, you know, when you see animals be born, you often see like the mother like trying to like stimulate or know, licking them and like, you know, but you don't need to like, yeah, I mean, it's wild. And I'm so glad that like, you were able to have that experience because yeah, with Murphy, I guess I had a somewhat similar experience is that he didn't take his first breath for like 54 seconds, I think the video is. And my midwives did clamp the cord and then go get the oxygen. And by the time they'd gotten all of that, he'd started breathing, but the clamp, the cord was already clamped and it just, actually just doesn't make any sense to me. Yeah, that was my first home birth. Yeah. Was that a publicly funded home birth? No. wow. Okay. And I have big babies. I was doing that. Yeah. I have big babies too. So I definitely wouldn't be allowed any of these publicly funded programs now anyway. But yeah, that was my first experience and that fed into a lot of anxiety for the second time around because I was like, well, I don't want that to be happening, you know? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, like the respect that like transition is normal, like I think, yeah, still needs to be worked upon even in private midwife land. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, there are private midwives and private midwives as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know, like, as I said, this midwife wasn't in the room, so she didn't know any of that was happening. But our previous midwives had Like they had all obviously their recess equipment, they had also like they had a wooden big wooden chopping board and they were like, if we need to resuscitate, we balance the chopping board on the edge of the pool to keep the cord intact while we resuscitate. even if that's so resuscitate that cord was staying intact. Like, they're just like, that was how they did it. but yeah, that's yeah, I just, it doesn't make sense to cut their oxygen supply. No, it just like, it you're needing to give them oxygen. No, it just, I mean, that's been a great cause. I mean, I could literally gone for hours about how frustrating that experience was, but I'm just, yeah, it's so beautiful that you were able to have that experience and that your husband was also able to like step back and trust you and like, yeah. What was your postpartum like? was amazing. Yeah, I couldn't believe that it could be that good. I was just totally, I probably pushed it because I felt so good. But I honestly, I remember between having my two boys, I remember seeing like photos of women after they've given birth, like sitting up on the bed and just crying and just being like. they could sit up and hold their baby. I couldn't sit up for like probably a couple of weeks. I had to lie or I could sort of waddle. But just seeing them sitting like right up and I was like, they're sitting on their bits. Oh my gosh. And yeah, the day after Johnny was born, was actually the same day was born at about five a.m. in the morning. And later that day, we invited some friends around because I know that like lots of people like to do their newborn bubble thing, but it's not us. Yeah, yeah, you're at a party. Yeah, we have people over and I have this photo of myself sitting up on a wooden chair. I'm not recommending this, but sitting up on a wooden chair holding him and I sent it to my first midwife because we still like are in contact with them quite a bit. And I was like, look at me sitting up straight after having a baby. Yeah, I just, really couldn't believe it. But I did after probably a few days, I felt like, I probably should like lie down and just stop. just, but it was excitement. wasn't like, and I knew that you're meant to do like as much time horizontal as you can when you do. But I was just, I was just on such a high from it. I couldn't believe that I felt so good afterwards. But yeah, no, it was really good, really good recovery. And it was really beautiful seeing the two boys together. And that was just like the best time. And Liam had quite a few weeks off, which was really nice. we had, yeah, we had quite a few of the people who were in our birth team stay for a couple of days. And then my family came up and stayed in a caravan park around the corner, which was really nice. It was great. yeah, I mean, every, yeah, it was really different just because different baby as well. And breastfeeding is different with two different kids, which no one told me. I thought, well, I know how to breastfeed now. I've done it for two and a half years. I can breastfeed, but it turns out it was just as hard the second time. But yeah, it got there, but just so different. They're so different. Yeah, different little people. they are. Oh, and one other thing that I was going say, with Johnny, the placenta had a valomentous cord insertion, which we didn't know until afterwards because we didn't have a 20-week scan. And yeah, I'm just kind of glad we didn't know. I don't think it would have particularly worried me, but like my midwife said, oh, it's not really an issue if no one pulls on the cord, so it's fine. And they can make such a big deal of it in hospitals, I know. But I mean, if you don't pull, God, apparently it's pretty fine. So we didn't know about tilapids, but it was fun to see just something different. So yeah. That's awesome. Well, thank you so much for sharing your two amazing home birth stories. I think, yeah, we had like a lot of good little chats in between as well. think there's lots to learn and reflect upon and I really feel like Liam should go and teach all of the paramedics about our home births. Yeah, he's working on it. It's really crazy. There are so many of them that are so scared of birth. Yeah. Like really scared. He will say most of his colleagues, like when there's a birth, they're like, no. I don't want to go to this. And I just think, especially if you're calling paramedics for a birth, it probably means everything's actually going really well because it's happening too fast. Too fast. like everything's probably going perfectly. Yeah. It's, it's just like, it should be so exciting, but they're just really, really. scared of it and I just think we all kind of think oh you know they'll know what to do but yeah they don't necessarily know it's yeah anyway so there's definitely a lot of work to be done there thank you so much for having me thank you is there anything else that you wanted to say or that we hadn't talked about or forgot to mention Oh, I don't think so. I don't think so. I just really think that I hear a lot like, you know, it's your birth where you feel safest and if that's in the hospital, then great. And I used to think that, but now I just think, well, why do we feel safest in the hospital? Like, and we might feel, if you do feel safest, that's great, but statistically you're not. it's very hard to say that to someone, but I just... you're just safer at home. Just how do you, I just wanna shout it from the rooftops. If everyone could experience home birth, just think, I actually think people's whole journey as a mother would be different, to be honest. But yeah. I think it would really change society, to be honest. But we've got a long, long way to go. Yep. But yeah, your story will be out there now and yeah, add to hopefully motivating and inspiring other women to consider or choose or carry forth with their home birth. So thank you. Thank you, Elsie.