Midwife has 3 homebirths - publicly funded and private homebirth & homebirth away from home || Sahara's birth of Van (2020), Chet (2022) & Wren (2024) at home (Victoria)

In episode 59, Sahara a midwife and IBCLC shares her 3 homebirth stories. 
Sahara shares her journey to finding homebirth and choosing to become a midwife. We then hear about her experience in a publicly funded homebirth program during the start of COVID 19 in Melbourne and the challenges she faced — she then shares her two home births under the care of private midwives. We go on some interesting tangents in this episode and we also talk about loss and also the trauma associated with a pyloric stenosis surgery that her 3rd baby had to undergo in the early weeks of her life outside the womb. 

Resources: 

• Gestational Diabetes 
  • https://www.rachelreed.website/blog/gestational-diabetes-beyond-the-label
  • https://podcasts.apple.com/ua/podcast/gestational-diabetes-the-pregnancy-perspective/id1523178579?i=1000527077230
• Eating dates for inducing labour https://bmcpregnancychildbirth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12884-023-06196-y
• Acupuncture or acupressure for induction of labour https://www.cochrane.org/CD002962/PREG_acupuncture-or-acupressure-induction-labour
• Pyloric stenosis
• The 'Timing Method' to increase chance of a particular sex https://www.naturalcycles.com/cyclematters/how-to-conceive-a-boy-or-a-girl

Chapters

• 2:56 Experiences with Home Birth Programs
• 9:11 Navigating Doubts and Support in Home Birth
• 11:55 The Role of Midwives and Continuity of Care
• 14:46 The Importance of Positive Birth Narratives
• 30:00 Coping with Loss and Moving Forward
• 54:00 Navigating Motherhood: From One to Two
• 1:05:00 The Experience of Third Pregnancies
• 1:20:00 Reflections on Home Birth and Societal Perceptions

Transcript

0:05

This is Birthing at Home, a podcast. I'm Elsa, your host. I'm a home birth mom of two little boys, a doula in Melbourne supporting birth at home. I'm a mental health nurse and the co-creator of Home Birth Victoria. If you want to learn more about me, the podcast or my work as a doula, check out www.birthingathome.com.au. Before we begin, I would like to acknowledge the Wurundjeri people who are the traditional custodians of the land I'm recording on in Nam, Melbourne, Australia. I would also like to acknowledge the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples have been birthing at home on country for tens of thousands of years prior to the British invasion and acknowledge that sovereignty has never been ceded. This is episode 59 and today Sahara, a midwife and an IBCLC shares her three home birth stories. Sahara shares her journey to finding home birth and choosing to become a midwife. We then hear about her experience in a publicly funded home birth program during the start of COVID-19 here in Melbourne and the challenges she faced. She then shares her two home births under the care of private midwives. We go on some interesting tangents in this episode and we also talk about loss and also the trauma associated with pyloric stenosis surgery that her third baby had to undergo in the early weeks of her life outside the womb. Enjoy. Welcome Sahara to birthing at home a podcast. Hello. Thank you for having me. Hello. Thank you. Um, I meant to clarify as well. You're like in the Southeast of Melbourne. Is that right? Yes, that's correct. Yep. Yeah. Cool. And I'm in the Northern suburbs. So, um, that's awesome. Do you want to begin Sahara by giving me a little overview to who you are? Obviously we know where you're located, but who's in your family? Yep. so I am wife to David. I have three children, three home birth babies. Van is four and a half. Chet is two and a half and Ren is seven months old. So two boys and a girl. I'm a midwife and a IBCLC. and I also have one dog, Ray, and she is almost 10. Excellent. How does Ray handle the chaos of three kids? we nicknamed her Nana actually, like a Peter Pan. She's very hovers like a mother, very protective. She's a pointer. So just that's kind of her personality. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But she, think she's living with high anxiety most of the time, but she's finding her path through it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, we have two dogs as well, two Greyhounds and Terry he's 10 as well. And yeah, sometimes I'm like, Oh, are you guys okay? Frankie has no boundaries. Frankie's like pulling a tail and you could be like Frankie's not pulling the dog's tail. It's chaos. Um, and so all three of your babies were born at home. Yep. That's right. Yep. So I had, the first was, um, MGP caseload and the second two were private. Yeah. Cool. All here in Victoria? Yep. And all the same midwife as well, which is quite special. Yeah. Wow. Wow. That's beautiful. so maybe before we get started, like, or get into the birth stories. So you're a midwife. How long have you been a midwife for? So I have always done, been a midwife. when I finished school, and went to uni, like that's what I've done. That's what I did. And that's what I've. Yeah. Um, didn't forge a career after birth or anything like that, like a lot of people. Um, and yeah, so that's always been my story. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And how did you come across home birth? Like growing up, had you heard of home birth? Do you remember anything about home birth? So actually, um, I remember being quite young, maybe seven or eight or something like that. And we were, um, We had gone to visit a great aunt and uncle and I remember standing, I didn't really know much about birth or having children or anything like that, but I remember standing by the fire at their house. They had a really, really old house and my great aunt said to me, I was born where you're standing. And I was like, what? And she's like, yeah, all of me, my siblings and I were like, well, that's so cool. And she told me about it. And I was like, cool. Like, I didn't even know if I was, I didn't really know much about wanting kids or anything, but I remember just going, I'm gonna have my babies at home. That's cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then I didn't really think much about that experience. And then as I got older, and then kind of, I stumbled upon midwifery actually in the career advisors office, I was probably looking at more mental health nursing, because my parents are both in mental health. yes. started to talk about nursing and then things you can do after nursing. she said she mentioned midwifery and I was like, what's that again? And she said, I was like, that sounds cool. I think I'll like that. So I chose it and yeah. And then obviously getting into midwifery and uni and placements was a bit of a shock. Yeah. From what I thought it Yeah, it's not as simple as just birthing near the fireplace. Yeah. And I had like researched a little more about Midwifery before actually committing to it with uni, but I was like, okay, this is a bit more, I guess, broken. Yeah. Different to what I thought. A polite way to put it, yeah. But I had this gorgeous lecturer. And you know, when you look back on those people that have probably been a really big impact on your life, but you don't really realize until much later. And I'm going to probably say she is the reason that I have ended up becoming the midwife or working in the spaces that I'm working in now. And probably the reason I had three home births. she was previously a home birth midwife. And she was a lactation consultant as well and everything. And I just remember her stories and one in particular just springs to my mind was about this birth she was at and the woman was on the ground just moaning through her contractions, just doing her thing. And her other two kids or three kids, I can't remember, were just sitting on the ground and on the bed eating spaghetti bolognese. I was like, I just remember that story. It's always stuck with me. And I thought, not only was that what I wanted to do, like with my own children, I was like, I think I want to work in that space too, you know? Yeah. So fast forward, I did uni, I did some work, obviously, in the hospital and stuff. And then I ended up working on an MGP program that did home birth. Yeah. And then I fell pregnant with my first and I was like, cool, I'm just going to have him through the program I work on. Yeah. I had kind of mentioned it to my husband in the past that we would have a baby at home, but you know what husbands are like. I don't know if he was ever actually listening to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because then when I got pregnant and said, all right, I'm having the baby at home, he was like, Wait, I have seen this before. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you know if he had ever like heard of Homebird or had any ideas about it? Not, not before. Obviously I worked in the space so he knew. no, never before. Like probably didn't even know what a midwife was before I said I'm going to do midwifery because we've been together for 15 years. So yeah, cool. He was with me the whole time. I was at uni and everything as well. But yeah, there was a little bit of a, he made a comment like, you know, don't people birth in hospital for a reason? Like, it's safer just the same comment that you always hear. I was like, dude, like, I work in this space and you see me like, and he's like, but I guess it's different than when that's work. And then this is your own. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just said to him, well, Look, whatever you want to do is fine, but I'm having the baby at home. It would be fabulous if you're there, but if you're not as well, that's okay. And then he just said, Oh, like, yeah, that's fine. Of course. Like, of course I'll be there. And he just said, look, at the end of the day, you know, best because it is your area. Like. Yeah. wouldn't come tell me how to like fix something or do something. he's like, I trust, you know, I trust that that is you're choosing it for whatever reason you're choosing it. Yeah. I swear. When I would get home from work and he would ask me how my day was and I would offload. Clearly he never listened to me because they are all the reasons why. Yeah. So yeah, that was that. We actually didn't fall under the radius to have Van through the MGP program. I was a bit cheeky and booked in with my mum's address. Oh, yeah, nice. She lived five, she lives five minutes from everybody? Yeah. think a lot of people do it. We had people renting houses. Yeah. just to have the home birth through the program. Yeah, well, I've seen like people because the Royal Women's I think is 20 minutes. And I've seen people say that they live like five minutes outside of like that 20 minutes thing. And that's crazy because every other program is like 30 minutes. Yeah, and women's strict. Yeah, because I I'm I would I worked there like you think you'd get perks, but no, like I spoke to a few people before and they're like, it's 30 minutes, it's strict. So I live five minutes from mom, she was 30. But yeah, the MGP hospital birth program is fabulous. Like it just opens that door for people, especially who can't. like really cannot afford the service. And it's an amazing and we need more. We need more of them. So I booked in. I remembered doing a home visit early on in a bit earlier on in my caseload days before I fell pregnant. And I went to this woman's house and she was telling me about she had gone in for her second baby and it was a breach, but undiagnosed breach. she was telling me she was like, fully and about to have this baby and there was talk about like a seizure or the rest of it. And she was like, my midwife just advocated for me, like she advocated and she had you know, a vaginal breach. And I remember hearing the story and I was like, that's who I want as my midwife. that's how I good. that's so good. I worked with her. She is an incredible midwife. Just, yeah, very experienced, very, yeah, she's just amazing. So I chose her and I was very lucky though. had a very great selection of midwives to choose from. So it was a little bit hard. Yeah. and the pregnancy was pretty just whatever, like nothing, nothing too exciting. had to do the GTT being in the program. was horrible. I definitely did not do it the next two times. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. and probably everything was pretty smooth sailing and, I never like, look, if I'm honest with you, had moments of doubt or where I would perhaps question the process just because I had been exposed to so much in the hospital. Yeah. Yeah. For so many years. must admit though, I've got a pretty like good strong red thread, as you'd say, all the women in my family have had great birth experiences. And I feel like the few that didn't, or they may have had one or two births that didn't go to plan, it wasn't like talked about or like, they kind of just more kept to the positive. I just kind of even growing up always like my mom had three really beautiful, like births in a kind of birth center setting. And I just grew up knowing that, well, you just have a baby. Like I always remember my mom when I was little going, like it hurt. And it was hard. But you know, you just do it. Yeah, I always had this wasn't actually till I started working in the hospital that I was like, like people have like issues and there's trouble. And yeah, yeah. But obviously I learned a lot about the cascade of intervention and how much those problems usually arise from the hospital setting. So for me, home birth, just my, my want for home birth just grew even more. I was like, that's what I, that's what I'm going to do. Yeah. It was how amazing that you already had these stories because like so many, like, yeah, so many women and I mean, even like, get men out there, like they don't hear like how they were born or that birth is positive or negative. think there's this mystery about like, what actually happened. it's fine to have the negative but also relaying the story with the knowledge of perhaps how it got to that point. Yeah, like, I don't know what it is. Yeah, but the I don't know a lot of people around me just seem to know you know, bless her. Like I remember my cousin speaking to me before I had my first just bless it because I was like, I do know this like, but she's just telling me her story. She goes, Whatever you do, don't have the epidural. And I went, okay. I like I said, I'm having a home birth anyway. And she goes, Yeah, she goes, she's gone. I had it with my first and they told me it wasn't the reason but I don't believe them. that it's the reason I had the forceps because the second time, because I said to them, why can't I push this baby out? It must be that thing that's giving me no feeling. And she said it wasn't, but I don't believe it. Yeah, yeah. And she said the second time I didn't have it and I pushed fine. And it's funny because a lot of stories I hear are things like, thank God I had the epidural because I needed a four sips. And it's just this kind of, yeah, these narratives and this language. And yeah, it really can, it really can like freak people out and make them doubt their body before they're even pregnant. And I guess it's quite disappointing that as a generalization, that that cascade isn't explained or seemingly debriefed, you know, it's not like, well, you had to have an emergency C-section or whatever. next time, you know, we should be careful of this. But I don't think anybody is saying, you had to have an emergency C-section this time. So maybe we should consider not inducing you. like work backwards. Even when it is debriefed properly, I'm like, you're talking to a woman. laying in bed who's perhaps lost like one to two liters of blood. mean, I had really great births and even after I was like, and I'm like, they're not taking anything in. no, it's not the right time. They've up for days. They're highly like, they've perhaps had huge blood losses. They're so sore. And it's like, yeah, they're not, they're not really going to take. everything in. Yeah. And you're sorry, I like in my experiences with my first son, Murphy, like I had a home birth with him. But I didn't really properly reflect on that experience until I was pregnant with Frankie. And then I was like, wait a second, maybe that wasn't as positive as like I initially, you know, there were things that I you know, could have been changed about that situation. Like that was, you know, three years later, also is it that response of like, that's how you get through it and cope. Yeah. Like that kind of, what is it like? Suppressing the real feelings and emotions and just going, I've got to survive the postpartum period. So I'm just going to, I'm just going to roll with that was good. Yeah, I think I can understand why people say that they've had think thank goodness births or whatever. Because like I think my initial mindset was like, thank goodness the midwives were there. you know, thank, thank goodness, whatever. But actually, when you look back, and when I looked through all the like all of the steps before that, I was like, wait a second. There are things that I could have changed about that situation. mean, you can't change it in hindsight, but like, yeah, I mean, one of my favorites is, thank goodness I was in hospital and had the CTG because the baby's heart rate dropped. Yeah. What were they doing to before it dropped or where were you at the point in the labor? Like there's so many questions to that comment. There's so many questions I have. this like you don't. But that's and I'm like, you're you're going around telling people who haven't had a story. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's just Yeah. And and it is that when you do have a home birth, there are so many shocked faces about what if something goes wrong? And yeah. Yeah. And I guess that's probably Yeah, my biggest thing is just Yeah. how do we normalize and how do we bring back like the yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like we just went on a bit of a tangent. Sorry. One of the questions that I had sorry in you know, being a midwife and working in this space and having all the knowledge that you do it did did you or your partner like did you do any like particular education or Yeah. So I did hypnobirthing. I actually just did online. So Van was born June, 2020. that was probably the biggest thing that happened in my pregnancy was COVID. And I feel like you had your first around the same time, didn't you? In April, yeah. So it was just really that whole two of not knowing, like even for us COVID, didn't like it was scary at first, yeah. Like we were like, what is this? It wasn't till later. you know, it's a touchy subject anyway for a lot of people. But at first we were like, what is this? And there was so much fear mongering and there was so, and it was scary. Like, totally. Yeah. know, especially being pregnant around that time. So that was probably the biggest thing. So I did the hypnobirthing, but it was online because you couldn't do face to face anyway. I actually just did it on my own, not with my husband. And was pretty clear with him about just what I think, like what I've seen in labor, I what he could do, what I might need. And all that sort of stuff. leading up to his birth, there was a lot of talk about canceling the home birth program. A lot of talk about no water birth, all this sort of stuff. that was probably my biggest fear in pregnancy was that they were going to cancel the program on me. I had two lovely midwives who I used to work with who also owned private, they did private practice. And I kind of set up a bit of a safety net with them that if the program would get pulled, they would just take me on. So I felt like the world had been lifted off my shoulders when I organized that kind of just, you know, it was very like, like they were just literally going to take me. it was just, yeah, that was a big relief for me to have that sit up. for me, for me having a home birth was just the most important thing. So leading up- Especially at that time because like the hospitals were full of sick people. Yeah. Yeah. But you know what? didn't even stem so much from that. just always thought I just want to have a home birth. was what I wanted. And it was my, it's all I had in my vision. would often, yeah, so going back to before, like I have the odd little doubt pop in my head, just because obviously I know a lot, like I've seen a lot. I was pretty good at just pushing that aside and going, no, just like it's fine. Yeah, yeah. I did everything that you do. did acupuncture. did Cairo. did everything. The dates, everything. And I went into labor at 39 and one. I remember I woke up that morning. was the morning before, was a Saturday morning and I had a really funny feeling in my tummy. And looking back, I've had that same feeling before each baby. Wow. Yeah. Um, and it's like, knew, but I didn't like, just went, no, like I knew though, you know, looking back, like, Oh, I knew I was having a baby. knew they were coming. Um, and my husband actually said he actually went out that day. Um, just not far. Um, which was great. He just had to get his computer fixed at our friends or something. I can't remember what it was. I just spent the whole day just nesting, just cleaning. And I remember cleaning the chalk pen. I was splitting wood. was doing like, I was having little cramps, but I was like, like it's probably, you know, nothing. You can pre-labor for days, which you know, to, or like you can, it can start and stop and start and stop, which is really not true for a primer anyway, generally, but that's what I kept telling myself. And then I remember in the day, my bowels were opening a lot in the day and I was like, Oh, you know, it's nothing. And then I had a big bloody show and I was like, Oh, that, Oh, you can lose your plank like a week, two weeks before. I just pushed it all aside and just keep carrying on in the day. having some rest here and there and just, you know, just doing my thing, really kind of a lot of nesting, a lot of nesting. And then that night, at about nine, we had dinner. I will tell we, we had, tell this because there's a theme to this. we had, Lebanese or like, you know, Middle Eastern. and then I, my husband was kind of just, I said to him, you know, like we might meet the baby tonight. And he's like, really? I hadn't said anything before this. I was like, yeah, but I said, maybe not. But I said, maybe. he's like, he's like, well what, you know, that whole, what do want me to do? Like, what are you? And straight away I was like, I want you to go away. Why don't you get some sleep? And yeah, so he went to bed and then I was just really listening to some hypnobirthing tracks and then some my birth playlist and I was like, this is a bit like nothing's really happening. So I went to bed and then at five to one in the morning, I woke up to this almighty contraction and it was on from there. And I just kind of did my own thing like with the tins machine, having showers and just moving around the house. it got to, so the labor for Van, the active labor, yeah, was I think four and a half hours. So from five to one, and then I, it got to a point I was like, no, I can't, like this is a lot. And I my husband up and I said, we have to go. And I remember it was really cold winter night. And I was in like my little bralette and underwear set. I was like, let's go like get the stuff going to mum's. And he's like, it's raining and freezing outside. It would have been like four in the morning or three in the morning. I you're gonna put something on. And I'm like, I was so hot. was like, just get in the car. And I experienced that now. It was quite interesting going from here to mum. moms, and then my contractions did go. Yeah, fascinating. So had you set up an extra space at your moms as well? So I had the whole birth space set up at moms, and she has a three, two, or two and a half person spa bath, so it was always just I'm in a bath and birth in there. I did always tell my dad that we put a liner and stuff in it, which was a lie. Oh, that's so funny. And I actually said to him the other day, did you think I was serious when I said I was birthing at your house? He said, I thought it was a joke at the start, but then I kept talking about it and I was like, oh, okay, apparently this actually is happening. Were you weirded out? He's like, oh, I don't know, you guys do lots of stuff. I'm like, Thanks, dad. So anyway, we, called my mom and Yeah, bless her soul. got up and put the light, you know, the porch light on and we come in and, and it had all died off and I was, but then I think it didn't take long that kicked back up because I was in another safe environment that was a home to me. But it did make me go think about those women, you know, that do drive in and then come into the hospital where it's not safe and just how much that does impact. Yeah. So was just, once things picked up again there, I was like, okay, this is a lodge. I did the classic midwife thing and tried to be myself. I think it's a rite of passage at this point. I was like, I thought I was only about two or three or something. I don't know what I was feeling to be honest. I was like, I can't do this. Like I'm gonna have to go in. I'm gonna need their Pedro. Like I can't do this. My husband was like, you need to call the midwife. And so I eventually called and they came. and I had in my birth plan, course, no V E's, the whole, let's not talk about dilatation, just that whole, yeah. laugh now cause and then she come in and I was like, you need to be, but we spoke about this and I was like, do it. Yeah, yeah. So she did. I laid on the bed and she did and she, she said something about six to seven centimeters. And I was like, no, I was like, can't, I can't. said, No, no, no. She said, it's very, very stretchy. And it's very like she said six to seven, but it's really, you know, and she, and I went All I could hear was six, six, six. And I was like, no, no, like I can't. And I just jumped up and then I shromed and I just did this almighty groan. And then literally it was like, fill the bath. And like, think 20 minutes later I had the baby. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. Another, you know, and I should, it's funny. That's just another thing is like, know VEs mean nothing. And I know, you know, what she was trying to tell me like six to seven, but stretching, bulging membranes like hitters down like, all I could hear was that number. And it's, it's so crazy just how, how much impact that can have. And it's so inaccurate. So yeah, I got in the bath and second stage was very, yeah, very quick and, very intense. do remember that I got a bit freaked out during that. cause I just thought it just felt so intense and so powerful. And I was like, surely this is not right. Like something must be wrong. Cause I just wasn't expecting that intense. Even though I'd seen it, I just was like, Wow, is this really what it is? Because it was a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah, then I birthed my son at, oh, I'm just trying to think actually it's behind me. Five beautiful pictures. Five thirty eight in the morning. yeah. And we didn't know we were having a boy. So and quite typical, like 10 to 15 minutes later. Yeah. Someone was like, what is it? we're like, oh, we don't even care. Like it could be, it could be anything. We do not care. And yeah, it was really, it was really lovely. was, yeah. So it was, yeah. And it was that whole typical story of like, hovering above your body. Like that's honestly what that birth was like for me. out of body experience. It was, yeah, it was. Yeah, it was beautiful. yeah, we then brought him home and just, yeah, did the... When did you, so what was the placenta birth like? So he actually snapped his cord. yeah, that happened to for a few people, actually. Yeah, but it was fine. Like, so minimal blood loss. But then I snapped the cord and that made quite a bit more. And yeah, but then birth the placenta fine. was all physiological third stage. no, yeah, no. did the cord snap? it like that you? I think I just, it was probably he had quite a small placenta and quite a skinny little cord anyway. And I pulled a bit too hard, like a bit, you know, and it just, yeah, just snapped. Thank God it snapped like right in the kind of perfect spot. Like it too close to the umby. wasn't like, wide. So we were still able to clamp it and it was all fine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And interesting. Yeah. Third stage was just relatively normal timeframe and yeah, all everything, everything intact. Yeah. Yeah. was just, it was really nice. Yeah. And then how long before you jumped in the car to go back? so actually, my husband went home and went to sleep and I laid in the spare room at mum's, which used to be my bedroom actually. I, I slept as well. I'm not going to say I had a very great sleep though, because you just saw like, know, adrenaline and everything. So I think that he came back and got us. in the afternoon and we went home. then, yeah. Yeah. Just relaxed and stayed in bed for like what felt weeks to be honest. Yeah. It was really nice. Yeah. that's beautiful. I think that's really funny though that, yeah, to get into the free program, you had to go to mom's. So you still had that transfer like that, you know. yet transfer sort of experience of like going from one place to another. After Yeah. And I think that you were able to, yeah, have that space that familiar space to just go already set up and everything, you know, it's another place that I feel safe and home. So for me, labor just kicked back off. Yeah, but I can see how Yeah, like, even I'm sure like you're an active, active labor, like I was definitely an active labor. So going to the hospital would have started again eventually, but to what, to what capacity and to what, like to just see how that intervention can really just happen there. Yeah. Well, even, having to think about getting in the car and, you know, being in the car, like the logistics of being in labor. in the car that car set up. was horrible. Yeah, so uncomfortable. I do remember that. It was so uncomfortable. And I was like, Oh, I could never do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So to have then and then because with chat and ran, did you go through the program or the programs? So, so it's not happening at the moment. I do believe it's starting again soon for our hospital, but it's not, not, not at the moment. So that midwife actually then was kind of one of her births and she had already started her business, like started the logistics of it. And I did know she was leaving after like a little bit after his birth, her plan was to leave. So it's funny actually, Cause you know, I remember too, when I was organizing the, safety net midwives and telling my husband, okay, so I've organized this and if, if the hospital falls through, it's going to cost us this much. he was like, what? And I was like, yeah, but you know, and he's like, and he didn't get it. He didn't understand the value. but it was another one of those things where I was like, this is what I'm doing. Yeah, like you're paying, we're paying for it. But then after I had Van and he found out our midwife was leaving his first comment when she was here post Natalie was also I guess we have to go private next time. Because for him that continuity of care and you know, he like he loves home birth and he was the biggest skeptic before even when I spoke about having the safety net midwives, I was like, you know, they might come to our house. will have him at our house if that happens. And he's like, yeah, I would still just do it at your mom's because if you know all the myths and this idea, especially from what friends had told him that birth was horrific that there's blood splurging everywhere. And there's like, I think that's the biggest thing for him after vans was, wow, it's actually really there's like barely any blood. It's actually really clean, like nice. And, and he, just think he didn't know what to expect having a baby as well. And he had heard bad stories from friends. and he just really had no idea what was coming, like how, yeah, he, which is quite typical. So with the second, was always, we always knew we'd have another home birth and he was pretty keen to actually have the next one at our own home. And it all worked out anyway, because we had to go private. that continuity was so important for him. Private, of course, has its amazing perks as well, especially with a toddler having all your appointments at home. And not having to, I didn't not, it was okay with the first because I didn't have a toddler in tow. But I can imagine doing it through the MGP program would have been that little bit less comfortable. you do save a lot of money, but private, you know, it's long appointments. They're very personal. It's, yeah, there's just so many things. There's not as many rules and regulations. I can remember with a van, I was so stressed about going post-dates and I was like, to the backup midwives, if I go post-dates, can you do me? my birth because I won't be able to do the home birth or if my GTT is abnormal, can I come to you? Or it's just so many things that you have to consider where with private you can relax and you're like, I don't even like saying post dates because it's not like so many women go, what's a due date? So just that relaxing with the private. I'm going to have my home birth no matter what. So I fell pregnant actually and trigger warning miscarriage. I actually lost that baby. So that baby would have been due in January of 2022. it was all... It was a bit of a tough time actually, because my husband's brother had been diagnosed with stage four bowel cancer. And we kind of got three months with him and that was it. So I lost the baby at the start and it's crazy, you don't know, you kind of underestimate the impact that will even have on your partner. Because you think it's just something that happens to you and your body. But yeah, he was pretty upset by that. I think just my, my mind just went, all right, I just have to fix this and I have to bring happiness and I just have to bring some kind of positivity to our life because we've just lost this baby and we've just we're dealing with my brother-in-law. And so my go to kind of thing was just fix it, fix it. So I just got pregnant straight away and I completely suppressed that loss and did not deal with that. put it nicely tightly in a box and put it away and I got pregnant straight away. you told like your midwife that you were going to have that you'd had this loss? Yeah, because I was happening. I lost the I always tell her. literally when I find out I'm pregnant because she books out so quick. Yeah, yeah. And I lost the baby I think at about eight weeks or something. Yeah. So that was fine. I got pregnant with Chet, like literally I didn't even have a period. I got pregnant with him like in the next cycle after the loss. It was a pretty straightforward miscarriage. didn't need any I didn't need a DNC or anything like that. just had the scan got told because I was spotting and I went in and I just knew to when I was spotting, was like I knew. know, all those, you know, but when you look back, you're like, you're in denial at the time. I came home after that. And that weekend, I just passed the baby myself. Like, I think I just needed to hear that. Yeah, like, it's gone. so that was fine. I got pregnant straight away, but also not fine. I really should have let my body rest, because I was highly anemic. Yeah. Yeah. So I felt horrible. I ended up getting an iron infusion at, I think 20 weeks. I felt so rubbish that like just tired that whole start of pregnancy. and. That was another straightforward pregnancy. We did know what we were having though, because we let my brother-in-law read, like we got, we ticked for the gender so that he could let us know before he passed away. So, yeah, was beautiful. It was a really special moment. He passed away two days after he did the, told us what we were having. Sahara. Oh my gosh. Yeah. That's so special. It was really tough. So with that pregnancy, it was all very straightforward. I decided with that home birth that I would invite my mother-in-law. I thought that it might be really healing and nice for her after that loss. And my mother-in-law's got five boys. So I knew like, you only ever have your mom if you're having anyone. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, she's never been to anyone else's births and she's never going to get the opportunity. I had her, I told her early on and I also had a photographer this time. Cool. And I had the same midwives and my mom. Yeah. All organized. with, I think then was your mom and dad present? My dad was in bed. but the baby crying woke him up and he did come and see me in the bath. And, that's when he realized too, there was no liner in the bath. So good. and your mother in law, all of her babies had been born in a hospital. Um, it wasn't a hospital actually. Oh, would know because you're from Melbourne, but, do you know Peter Mark? Yeah. So that used to be a birth kind of, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And all her babies were born there and it's actually quite thing. That's when my brother-in-law ended up passing away. So he went back to where he was born. Whoa. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Which is pretty crazy story. Yeah. So she had all normal births. I actually didn't tell them I was having a home birth with my first. Just because I only really told my parents and people at work knew obviously, and it was just something I just didn't want any kind of negative import. And my father-in-law is an ex-ambo, so I didn't know whether he was going to have an opinion or... I just decided to keep that space safe. But as soon as he was born, you know, of course my brother, my husband was calling people and they were like, let us know when you're home from hospital. And he's like, well, we actually had it at home. And first thing they were like was like, no, like is everyone okay? Yeah. I remember his brother when he's like, we actually planned it. And his brother's like, like, is that safe? And he's like, well, they're not just two randoms off the street. And he's telling them like, they've got equipment and like, of course it's same. It's like, So with my second, I didn't really need to talk about home birth. Everyone just said, you having another home birth? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So my second son is just like, just suits his personality so well. He decided to come at 41 weeks. Okay. For me, after having a 39 week was pretty horrible. Yeah, pretty unfair. I was doing everything. And I remember leading up to the labor, I was every night doing like, lunges and everything. Get out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he came one morning, I woke up, I was doing all these lunges and these induction workouts and stuff. I was like, I'm going to wake up in labor just like I did with Van. I remember waking up at about five in the morning and going to the toilet and looking at the clock and I was like, I'm still pregnant. I was so upset. I walked past the birth ball, booted it and just burst into tears and then I went back to bed. Then my husband and I woke up in the morning. I got up and he was making coffee and I had that same funny feeling in my tummy. So this would have been about probably seven ish or something. don't know. And I just said, I don't know if you'll be going to work. And he was like, are you in labor? And I'm like, no, but I don't know. You know, don't know. You know, and he's like, you should call the midwife because she was always like, you know, call me straight away because then was, you know, relatively quick for a baby. And I was like, you know, I just don't know. And I called her and I said, look, I'm not in labor, but I just have a funny feeling. I think by the time she did get, that's right. And then I was just, she said, I'll have breakfast and I'll make my way over if you're not in labor. No big deal. We'll just have a cup of tea. And while she was, guess, making her way here is when it kicked off. I just remember it started like with an almighty contraction that I was hanging off the fridge door. Swearing and I'm quite a wearer in labor. yeah, then it was everyone kind of made their way here. It was so different to Vans. was so Chet was born at quarter to 10 in the morning. Oh my gosh, that's so quick. Yeah. So yeah, it was a couple of hours. I do remember when everyone started to come though, like the contractions would become very irregular, like, you know, and, know, it was, it was such a beautiful birth. was so I had the photographer and she was just the most perfect like vibe for the space. She's just a beautiful soul. And my mom, my mother-in-law, my two midwives and my husband and my son. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like I had made all these cheese and fruit platters before everyone got there and I'd set everything up and my son was just sitting eating his porridge and there was just light. coming in from every window and I was just in the pool and it was just, everyone was kind of just chitter-chattering and it was that real like village, you know, woman coming together. I was literally just birthing in the corner and they were having cups of tea and eating cheese and crackers. And my son was running over like with his little doctor's kit, you know, taking my stethoscope and obsessed with the duck. They love. that those duck thermometers. Yeah. And, um, and then it was kind of, yeah, I dunno, just the same sort of thing. Second stage was very intense and horrible and, but quite, um, so I think then second stage maybe was about like 18 or 17 minutes. think Chet's was about 10. Yeah. And yeah, he, was born at quarter to 10 in the morning. So everyone still got to go on their lunch dates and whatever else they had planned for day. Yeah, his was amazing because I'd honestly had this full night's sleep. I just felt, yeah, yeah. It was, yeah, it was, it was good. So- you done any preparation with Van like in being present at the birth? He was 22 months. So- I didn't really get what was going on, if that makes sense. Yeah. Or with my daughter, because he was that bit older. Yeah. It's really funny. You'd be surprised how much kids read a room and yeah, he was fine. he had his, had, was, I, you do need those people there though, too. If that the child needs to be removed or. But yeah, he was fine. He just would come over and I just feel like I birthed very differently to being, knowing he was there. Like I wasn't, yeah, I was more present where with Van, felt like I was, it was like I was in another world. Like I said, I felt like I was out of my body, but with Chet, I was very present. Like I would come in and out. I do reckon his labor would have been quicker if there weren't, which is fine. was still, but I do think having all those people around and just that environment. But because I think I held him in for quite a while too. Like my midwife, when she said before I got in the pool, she was watching me and she said, I feel like he was. like you were, cause you were holding yourself and like clenching. And so I did hold off second stage for quite a while with him. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, motherhood though, one to two is a big shock. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if that was the same for you, but it is now. think initially I was like, this is okay. But now it just feels Yeah, always tired. yeah, yeah. I just feel like a lot of my a lot of triggers come up for me having a second and a lot of yeah, that's when I really had to do a lot of work on myself and probably unpack the miscarriage. And, and yeah, all of that stuff. So that was an interesting first year for me. Was the placenta with Chet, all right? Yep, same thing. Physiological third stage, everything intact. Yeah, so another minimal blood loss, just another really positive home birth story. yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, I also think I saw on your Instagram. Do you do birth trauma debriefs? Yeah, yeah, I do. So I started my business just before I had my daughter. So I Yeah, so I've obviously I'm on maternity leave now. But definitely, yeah. When I go back around, when she's around one. Yeah, I'm keen to get everything back going back again. Yeah. Yeah. And hopefully, work more in the home birth space next year, I just did my endorsement and yeah, have a few things planned for the future. But Yeah. Yeah. And I'm not sure what's happening with the program at work and all that stuff. Yeah. Look, I've tried to follow it up for Home Earth Victoria and they don't want to have a chat. So I don't know what's really happening. I think people have said like January next year, but like, yeah, I have taken women or is that when the births are happening? Like what's happening? Because they were meant to do it this year. So I don't know. What I wanted to ask is if you knew in your experience, debriefing with women, like, with losses, do you find that lots of women do push the loss down? And like, does that? inevitably always have like an impact with their birth if they've had birth trauma? that? I don't know if that question makes sense. But I guess in the terms of storytelling, like, you know, telling a birth story, whether it's positive or negative or dramatic or just an everyday kind of thing is like way more common I feel than storytelling around loss. Like, do you feel that that inability to talk about loss and things like that has an impact on the birth experience? I think it might come down to how good at suppressing things you are. Yeah, yeah. Maybe. I don't know. that makes sense. we've all, yeah, I don't know. That's a hard one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because I'm doing my I'm doing some training with Rhea Dempsey at the moment. amazing. She she quite often has told us stories that you know, when she's being at birth, and sometimes when things are struggling to move or like keep moving or something comes up that, you know, she's kind of had to like dive in and be like, yeah, yeah. You know, look at things that have happened before in that moment. Yeah, no, no, I understand what you're saying now. I do understand what you're saying now. And yeah, I do agree with that. It's the same as well. Like I do believe that things even like that can inhibit labor even beginning or. how it progresses even in the early days, but talking things like even commencing labor, like it's amazing how much our mind, even subconscious thoughts are connected to everything hormonal and yeah, letting go and surrendering. Yeah, no, definitely I agree with that. I remember hearing a story about someone to who had recently like lost, can't, I think she lost her mom or I can't remember who it was. And she was having a home birth and had to transfer just because it was just not really progressing and not moving anywhere. And it was just all of that grief and not having done that work. I wonder what the correlation is between like loss and grief and transfers, home birth transfers or just in general birth trauma. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely. Oh, birth trauma too, 100%. Because if you think about our ability, so that kind of fight, flight, freeze response, we have the ability to stop our labour. No matter just like I was talking about when I went in the car and then getting to my mom's house and yeah, yeah, yeah. So if we have a danger approaching us and we can we can stop labor that's like, yeah, an end. That is such an incredible innate ability that we have. So if we've got subconscious fears and triggers from previous birth trauma coming up in that birth space. Yeah. Yeah. 100 % it would. Yeah. And interesting. Yeah, it would be interesting. to there's a PhD there. Yeah. Yeah. And then show the government. I mean, it's not like, well, I mean, the government's listened to us on this professional indemnity insurance thing, at least the low risk terminology. So maybe they would listen. don't know. You never know. Yeah. But with a yeah, it's hard to because you got to talk about like, unpacking that stuff in pregnancy to is not appropriate for some people, time appropriate or anything. And they just or they might have another little one and it's just they're not in a place to do that. So yeah. So do women some women just go on a loop? of birth trauma to birth trauma to birth trauma to birth trauma because they're carrying that previous experience from the first and does that affect the second and third and fourth and fifth? I think for a lot, yeah, that it would happen a lot. Yeah, it's just, guess, working that out would be hard. yeah, because our minds, yeah, it's powerful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I've seen or read stuff about like the intergenerational impact of that stuff as well. like things, I mean, yeah, but because I've been doing my presentation for the Home Birth Australia conference, and talking about storytelling, like I do. And you know, talk about the red thread and whatnot, I do feel that, you know, again, I don't think there's really any research or if you could even research something that like the intergenerational impact of unresolved birth trauma or, you know, unresolved things around by fertility or, you know, your perception of birth or pregnancy, like how that filters through your, your line, like, yeah, just lots of, think, yeah, it's very powerful. All of this sort of subconscious stuff that you don't really even realize has potentially an impact because I guess we're so reactive and we we acknowledge what we see. But we don't really think like in society, it's not really spoken about the unseen. mean, and that's like with mental health as well. Right? Like, you see somebody with a broken leg, you're like, you know, yesterday, I took a was I working in mental health, I took a consumer at to play basketball. And we were looking for a car park and we have like the cars have like disability parking things. And I was like, we can park in the disability car parking thing. And so we did. I was like, to anybody else looking at this, it would just look like two regular people stepping out of a car. But like, that's not actually the situation, you know, underneath there's like all of this stuff that you don't see. And I feel like, yeah, in the maternity world, it's Yeah, it's all about like, what's on the GTT test? Or what do you see from the CTG? What do you from this? Underneath is actually so much stuff that you can't really like, put a metric on or you know, measure or... Even if even if they have never birthed before? Yeah. Even what is their red thread? What have they heard from their mum and their mother-in-law and their sister and their and just that impact that, you know, we can have on our children now even as moms like my sons and my daughter. Their birth story will potentially... Yeah. And potentially impact how their children are born. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, yeah, it's big and it's bigger than people realize. Yeah. It starts before we realize and yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, even like when you think about that experience when you were seven years old, like just hearing that home birth was this chill, beautiful thing, you know, like it, you know, it doesn't have to be like how so many other stories you hear are, especially as a young woman. I realized we've gone like on another huge tangent here. Maybe it's like Saturday morning. So we've we've checked. you had the same midwife and then for Ren, you were able to have the same midwife again. again. That's perfect. So same thing. I literally pee on a stick. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm pretty sure I've told her not the first time, but with Chet and Ren, I'm pretty sure she knew before my husband that I was pregnant. Yeah. Excellent. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so I tell her relatively quick just to get in. she books out quite quite quickly. Yeah. So we, my husband and I had a lot of chats before we decided to go for a third just because it, you know, two was a lot and you do. As I said, I feel like I had to go through a lot of changes and I changed a lot after having a second and I did a lot of work on myself. Yeah. and started therapy, all that sort of stuff. Yeah, yeah, The whole re-parenting journey that is still ongoing. Totally. Yeah. And we decided to go again and we decided with Ren, we would find out what we were having again, just because we actually really enjoyed that with Chet. Yeah. and so we let Van pop a balloon. it was just, just us here with my parents and my husband's mom. I think his dad was away or something at that time and found out we were having a girl, which was pretty exciting. so Ren's pregnancy again, quite uncomplicated, like nothing, nothing to tell. Chit's As I said, he that was hard with a toddler, as I'm sure you can relate. Renz was really hard. I think every pregnancy I've like chits and then Renz things just start earlier. Yeah. And I actually felt like my body was possibly going to break when I was pregnant with her. I think for me, it was probably three back to back pregnancies. I've breastfed since then, like I haven't stopped. I've tandem fed twice. I've literally been breastfeeding for four and a half years. I've been pregnant three times in four and a half years. Like I think my body was just like, whoa. So hers was definitely my hardest pregnancy, but not by means of complications, just because I think it was just that strain. on myself. Yeah, yeah, giving not giving myself that grace and break. Yeah. Um, so she had the exact same due date as chit actually. Whoa, I forgot to tell you actually with chit the night of before he went into labor, we um, we had Lebanese that night as well. That was a part of the story at the start. Yeah. So the boys were both born on the 14th as well. The 14th of June and the 14th of April. my gosh. but that's so funny because, Frankie is born on the 14th of June. really? really cute. Yeah. youngest. Yeah. that's so funny. that's, that's gorgeous. Yeah. So our little Gemini's. that's so funny. Two 14s, that's crazy. So Chet's due date was the seventh of the fourth and Wren's was the seventh of the fourth as well. Yeah. That was a bit of an accident in terms of like, I would have preferred a bit more of her, but then I was like, you know, whatever. Like even if they're born on the same day, I actually kind of wanted them to be because I was like, that'd be pretty cool. Yeah. Might be cool for us. The likelihood that. I'm going to have three on the 14th as low. So hers was just hard on my body. And then I got sick at the end of pregnancy. My husband and I did, I'm not sure what it was. I think it was some kind of adeno virus or something. Oh, yeah. It was really horrible. Very like flu and then just diarrhea vomiting. Oh, that's awful. Yeah. Was sick for a good, um, good couple of weeks actually. And I was just so petrified. I was going to go into labor and I had, I was just like diarrhea all the time. were so unwell. Like my mom was taking, she took time off work and took the boys like I've never, never been so sick in my life, the both of us, but the boys didn't get it. Interestingly. And, so that was what the end of my pregnancy was like just that. And you know, she's the first one I actually packed a proper hospital bag for. And I don't know, I just had this feeling about a hospital and I don't know if it was because I was so sick. I don't I don't know what it was. But anyway, I started to get good just a few days before she was born. I even had to cancel like, I think that couple appointments with my midwife, so I hadn't seen her in a little bit. Yeah. But You know, I was feeling fine. Like looking back, there's probably some times of reduced movement there. Yeah. But I think, cause I lost a lot of weight as well. But I think, I think I just felt like I was, it was okay because she's okay. And then, at 39 and two, so the second to the fourth 24, which actually adds up to 14. Yeah. That's when she was born. that morning I woke up and I was just so, so over pregnancy. was just so tired from being so sick. Yeah. And yeah, I woke up that morning and the boys were just, you know, just being boys and I, yeah, I I remember just, couldn't be bothered that morning and I put something on for them and I hopped in the shower and I just burst into tears and I had that feeling in my tummy again, you know, but I ignored it again, third time around and I called my mom, I got out the shower and I was just crying. I was like, I'm just not loving life today. And she said, Oh, well dad and I actually just randomly have the day off. So why don't you come around and I was like, yes, please. So I, Went around and she just looked at me and I think she just knew as well. And she said, look, go home, rest, and I'll look after the boys today. So I went home and I missed it. I had a stack of bills to pay. I cleaned the house. I just did all that sort of stuff and I didn't rest. And then I went back to get the boys and she said, have you rested? And I said, no. And she said, well, I'll give them dinner and bath them and bring them home, just go home and rest. Right. So I went home and then my husband got home and I was just relaxing and talking. And I said to him, I've just got a weird feeling, you know, that something's going on. And he's like, like, you can have the baby, but especially multi like I had, I with Chet and Wren, I had had prodromal labor like so much like for weeks. Like it was from 35 weeks and I didn't have him till 41. And, and Ren was the same. I'd had, you know, you as a multi you cramp for weeks. I was like, I dunno like what's going on. And I think I lost my plug with her that day too, from memory. I never lost it with Chet. I don't think it came out in the pool, but Yeah, I think something like that. And I just felt like, yeah, there was a bit of mucousy show. That's right. And I just thought, but I don't know. I'm a multi. So who knows what's going on? then my husband come in, he was working in the shed and we were just chatting. And then I just said, maybe just set the pool up because I don't know. And then he's like, okay. And remember he was setting it up and I just, I got this contraction and I was like hanging off the door, just like screaming. and then, I think I called my midwife and she was like, I'm going to come right now. And I'm like, okay. Like, but I was still okay. So I think I called her about, Gosh, I think maybe around quarter to six or something like that. And then called the photographer, the same one. And we were going to have my mother-in-law again, but we didn't call her yet. And honestly, from then on, it just like, yeah, I remember. Yeah, I don't even remember much. was just, I think it was like 50 minutes or something for my daughter. was, yeah, everyone kind of got there just like, the photographer missed it. She got there after. The second midwife got there 10 minutes before and my midwife got there about, yeah, like, I think 15 minutes or something like that. And yeah, it was just, it was very intense. was, and it was actually like, it was too quick. Yeah. And she was probably my listen as a midwife, because I remember I've spoke like people would talk to me about their fast labor or things like that. And I'd always be like, so lucky. and yeah, it wasn't actually nice. I was in so much shock after I couldn't string a sentence together. Like I'm normally very happy and bubbly after my births. But I was just, I was like, disassociating from everything and everyone. I don't think I even, I was caring for my daughter for like two days, but I wasn't connected with her. And I didn't even really accept that I'd had a baby. it wasn't too late. I think about two days later, I was like, my God, I had a baby. I just, just this blank like, Yeah, it was, it was horrible. Yeah. It was like, was quite, it was quite full on. Like my husband even said it was quite traumatic. Um, I remember the second midwife said that she was really overwhelmed and really like, like, yeah. So that she was a bit of a lesson for me in terms of, how birth trauma can look. Um, we always think it's just comes down to, you know, these really traumatic high intervention births. I had a really beautiful home birth and I wouldn't like I, of course I still, it was still a beautiful birth, but it was, it was a bit of a shock for me. But it's like, that's I've, yeah, there's been quite a few people that have women that have shared their quick stories on the podcast. And pretty much that's the main theme is that they were shocked and it actually wasn't that pleasant because you're going through, your body is going through. like the most intense thing that it will ever go through and also sped up so quickly. Like it makes sense that like your body's just like, what the hell? Yeah. we called my mom like, I don't know, maybe she got here 10 minutes before as well with the boys. So the boys were here as well. so another, Yeah, and it is a little bit more special to then like the chip was special, but Van still talks about it now. Yeah, read a home birth book like reading up leading up we'd read it a lot. And yeah, and he loves telling the story. And yes, it was still there's still beautiful aspects and the photographer got really gorgeous photos all after the birth and all that sort of stuff. The second stage, I don't even think she had a time for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That one was like real like fetal. Yeah. Ejection reflux. You know, like the like just your body's just doing it. Yeah, like I couldn't control. No, there was no breathing. was no, I remember just trying to hold her head like, I'm trying to just breathe, but she's just coming. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So Same thing, just physiological third stage, everything intact, minimal blood loss, just another positive home birth story. Did it take longer for the placenta to be born or roughly similar time? I think they were all pretty similar. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not. I'm probably not the greatest, with third stage, cause I just can't be bothered. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I hate it. Yeah. I'm just, I'm just, yeah. So I, yeah, I'm probably not the greatest at it. that's amazing. Did you like, so it took you a few days to sort of come around to the fact that yeah, Ren was, you know, here you done it. was over. Yeah. Has that come up for you like any other time in the past few months? Yeah, yeah, I did for quite a like and I still do feel a bit robbed because you know my other two birthing experiences were that feeling of like the like the high and the like just you know that feeling that's better than anything you've ever felt before and I didn't have that with her I was just flat. the whole time. And it is, you do feel a bit robbed because she is my last baby. And that is my last like experience. And yeah, and it was so different to the boys. So yes, I got a beautiful home birth and everything perfect, but the feelings were very different. yeah, so I did feel and I still do feel a little bit robbed, but I'm making peace with it more. Yeah. But it's still yeah, it is still there for me a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. So she's just been a little everything with her has been a bit different. You know, it's really funny too, because I had this keep having these like negative thoughts when I was pregnant with her about like, because I've just let the system get in my head a little bit. So it was that like, third wild card narrative. I don't know if you've heard that. goes around and it's so ridiculous and so stupid. But I did always think, God, what if that does happen to me? But you know, these, it's interesting when you think about sayings and narratives like that, like, do we make them something? Yeah. But it was all, all perfect and everything. Yeah. But, she actually got, we had RSV when she was two weeks old. Yeah. So we were a bit sick for a couple of weeks and around the time that we had the RSV and she developed a cough. actually started vomiting. And I kind of thought it was all connected for a while there and I was probably missing a lot of her fatigue, her lethargy. Like, because the boys were so busy and yeah, and Anyway, when she was about five weeks old, her cough started to go. And so I know she had RSV because I took her to the hospital a week before. And we actually had, they did the swab and I said, okay, I took her because she seemed dehydrated to me. She had labored breathing at times, but it was nothing that I felt I couldn't manage. And then I was like, oh, you're very dehydrated and very lethargic and she hadn't fit all day. So I took her in and they swabbed and said she's got like RSVN. I said, okay, that makes sense. And then I kind of talked about the vomiting and they're like, oh yeah, like I said, it's usually with coughs and coughing and they're like, it can happen. It's not common, but it can. it must, yeah. And we went home, they did try and cannulate her sorry, to give her fluids and we went home. They failed. But that kind of cortisol woke her up and she breastfed. So we went home and like a week later, you know, she just wasn't coughing anymore and she was still vomiting and it was like projectile. And I was like something's something's going on. I was like. just thinking back to what I know. And I was, had this thought about something and I was like, surely not. Cause then I was Googling it, the condition and I don't know if you've heard of polorexistinosis. it's when the poloris after birth, can thicken too much. it's, it's quite, it's quite rare. So it connects the like upper and lower GI tract, it's tube. So your food passes down it and the wall can thicken too much. It thickens and thickens until all the milk just pools on top and they project while vomited out. Oh, interesting. But 80 % of cases are boys and usually it's your first born and there's usually family risk factors. And you know, the only risk factor she had was that she's Caucasian. Yeah. And I was like, it won't be that because it's not common anywhere. And I'm like, I just know too much and I'm being paranoid. anyway, I ended up taking her back to the hospital at five weeks. And it was so she had to have abdominal surgery at five weeks of age. Yeah. that, yeah, that was pretty, it was pretty horrendous. And like I had to. had to fast her for three days before because her sodium levels and all that was so out of whack. if she had a GA, could have. Oh, that sounds so difficult. Yeah. So we had to get her levels all back to normal before we could give her surgery. Um, cause she could have had a bratty or something, such out of whack levels. So that was just. you know, that was just such a traumatic experience for me. Like, I'm such like, I'm just so I'm quite holistic with things like I don't I don't even get my kids pan at all very really. you know, and I'm all about skin to skin breastfeeding, like, resting, resting after a baby being together and then I end up Like, you know, I had to watch them try and do like seven attempts of an IV and I had to, could, you know, she, I said to my husband, like for three days, cause she's just crying and cause she was hungry. Yeah. And I said to my husband, you know, I know that my head is telling me this, she needs surgery or she will die. But my body is telling me to take my baby and run away from this place. run far away. it was yeah, but she had the surgery and it was all successful. You know, I just cringed looking at the medication chart and everything she was given. But we got home and I think that I don't think I think it took me a long time to get out of that shock. Like I was in shock from the birth. And then we had the RSV. And then I was just that really shook me that hospital experience. And, you know, there's actually no, I can't describe the pain it feels to have someone take your five week old baby that's awake. They, you know, they won't even let you sit while they go into GA, take her away awake and you just have to, you know, hand her over. And it's just, was a lot, like the whole experience was a lot. And I just got home and I just, I, I just definitely like went into a shell for a while there and yeah. So her whole postpartum experience for me from the birth has really just, yeah, it was, it's been very different to the boys and I do feel robbed of a lot of it. Yeah. but I think, yeah, for me, it's just been coming out of the shell and making peace with everything and probably like. Maybe is there also an element of like, trying to forgive yourself? Like even like, I feel at least with I mean, it's not as intense as that, but like Frankie has all these allergies. And I'm like, is it something that I did? Is it something that I should have been eating that I shouldn't have been eating? Should I have done this? Should I have done that? Like, should I have started this earlier? Should I have? Like the should have, could have kind of thing. mean, for the, what was it called? Peloric stenosis. Peloric stenosis. you know, you're not in control of that. I feel- No, and it's so rare and it's a birth defect that doesn't appear till three to six weeks after. So you don't know about it in pregnancy. They don't know what causes it. And statistically speaking, she felt into such a small window of having it like being a girl and it's not common anyway and no risk factors other than Caucasian. you know, I couldn't have done anything different. The only regret I kind of had was by the time I got to her to hospital, she was so unwell that we had to fast for three days and that was traumatic. She was so dehydrated that her veins like Like the anethesis was the one who took seven attempts with an ultrasound machine. And on the seventh, he did say, I'm probably going to have to knock her out after this. Like, and you know, just that whole, like, I was so glad my husband was there. Like there was a nurse holding her down and my husband and I were holding her down like a five week old baby. And her trauma response, like just watching her. she would just scream and scream and scream and no one would do anything. And then she would just look blankly and then just pass out and she'd just do it over and over and over again. so that whole experience, I did kind of have regret. Like if I had have got her to hospital sooner, but in saying that I took her a week before and they did her bloods and they were normal. So. I think with Peloric stenosis, there's a small window, even the first ultrasound guy, he missed the Peloric stenosis and they redid it in the morning with someone more experienced and he found it. cause it's all about picturing the wall. So I honestly don't think I could have done anything different. you know, in terms of all of that, you know, the RSV, I don't know. I don't know. think I got it from. the fruit and veg shop on the Sunday. I mean, how do you know that? like, Yeah, I can't. You know, I did. It is the yeah, I don't think that there's nothing I could have done really about any of it. I did keep having these like weird feelings. So like when she was in surgery, you know, because I know, you know, what can happen with GA and all that sort of stuff. I did have these feelings like, my God, if she dies under GA, I had actually tried to have a girl. So I did the whole timing method. I was having these like thoughts like, have I played with fate? Like have I like it is the mind does start to, you do have really intrusive thoughts. Yeah. Like no one talks to you about them. And then you become a mom and they're they're so intense. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But she, she had the surgery and she healed well and everything was all good. I did a lot of like in the postnatal period, I've listened to her feelings lots and, just really held her and listened to her, which has been really healing, I think. Beautiful. Even I at the start would have a lot of cries with her and I feel like, you know, I felt like we were communicating the story. She's had a little bit of Reiki done. I think the most important thing I can do for her is I've written the story out and I will just always let her know what happened. And yeah, and I think her. think now to her children will be, I think at a 20 % risk of having it. Wow. Yeah. I think it worked out to one and five. That's 20, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so yeah, it's just that for her knowledge will be power and yeah. But, um, yeah, it was just her whole postnatal period for me was just, yeah. So I feel like now it's just that. kind of, I feel like we've done a lot of healing, but I'm sure, yeah, there's still, yeah, there's still a lot. And there's still a lot sitting there for me. I think like with, especially in the context of home birth and birth and gender, like we try to like make things predictable. And, you know, for some there's, you know, that makes them more scared or worried. And so, you know, they try to prevent things from happening. But like at the end of the day, things are always going to happen and that's life. You're not in control of almost everything. Yeah. There's only so many things that you can control. And I think this is really funny too. People's perception of home birth. Like I remember after all this happened, I can't remember where I was. Someone said to me, like, maybe they'd heard or maybe I told them. what had happened, I can't remember. And their response was, so you went to all that effort to and spent all that money and went to all that effort to have a home birth and, and, you know, not give her any medications or anything. And then she needed it all anyway. And it's like, do you miss are you missing the point? And this is what I mean. Like, I think this is what like, society, like what kind of people we're dealing with, like they don't even understand like what, why, you know, have a home birth and what would it have been better if I had her in hospital and stayed there for five weeks for when she needed surgery. Like it's not connected at all, but it's just, yeah. Yeah. It's It reminds me, I, in one of the earlier episodes, I recorded a story with a mum that had to have an emergency c-section at like 32 weeks or something. And she went on to have a home birth after cesarean and yeah, talking to her about like, yeah, like at 32 weeks, what can you do? Like you're not gonna be having a home birth at 32 weeks, but that doesn't mean if you get to term and everything's fine, you know, like why can't you have a home birth just because you've had this experience? doesn't mean like it's, I mean, every baby and every journey is individual and like you just have to, yeah, I feel like roll with the punches. don't know. yeah. Home birth isn't just for the baby. It's for the mum as well. Yeah. Yeah. Like our health and it means something as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, um, yeah, so much bigger than yet the black and whiteness of it's home birth. risky or is it safe? So much bigger than that. But yeah, I feel like we could talk for a very long time. Thank you so much for sharing your amazing stories, including your postpartum story. Did you have anything? Yeah, of course. Did you have anything that you wanted to add that we missed or anything else you wanted to say? don't think so. I don't think I told you. So yeah, I also had Lebanese before the night before. Yeah, so this is the hot tip from this episode. Add to everything Lebanese food. Add that to, you know, the dates and the Indian food. It's just a freak chance, but my husband thinks he is 100 % like that is it. I'm like, okay, mate. Is it from the same Lebanese place? no, it wasn't. No, gonna say you could have like told them that they could put that as like, I I had like a chicken kebab each time though. perfect. That's useful information to know. Yeah, but no, like, so yeah, I guess just thanks for listening. And it's great. It's, I think it's important to get as many positive stories out there. And yeah, and I do just like for us like, feel very lucky and I think it's amazing we've had the same midwife for all three births. Yeah. It's really positive home birth experiences. Yeah brilliant thank you so much. Thank you.