Freebirth as a first time mum || Monique's birth of Jonathan at home (New South Wales)

This is birth story 57, and it is shared by Monique from the Northern Beaches in Sydney. She shares her freebirth story with her first baby, Jonathan or Jojo. Monique’s normal boring freebirth story is so interesting given her own birth imprint includes both her and her brother being born via c-section. 
It’s a beautiful story and lovely to listen to how Monique learnt about freebirth and the confidence she had in her body. 

Resources: 

• Birth Video 
  • Labour https://www.instagram.com/reel/C-9tj-Ih98EyxpM4rNOEjpPIVV2Utt95xzEyxo0/?igsh=dHNtbXh4aHNhMDl5
  • Birth https://www.instagram.com/reel/C-9vAjxhlGsZ39-AQV2uTVfKMOes3wDSRxPfTY0/?igsh=cTgyYWk0bW10dWZl
  • Placenta https://www.instagram.com/reel/C-9vuB9hwFgAp3f9gIkpFsRbwJn64ahl72Zg4Y0/?igsh=MTNqaTlwZHFobWhqZA==
• Normal Boring Freebirth (insta + podcast) https://www.instagram.com/normalboringfreebirth/
• Using Scans to measure babies https://www.rachelreed.website/blog/big-babies-care-provider-fear
• Evidence (or lack of) on ultrasounds in pregnancy:
  • 2016 Ultrasound Scans in Pregnancy – Your Questions Answered! By Dr Sarah Buckley 
  • 2009 Safety of ultrasonography in pregnancy: WHO systematic review of the literature and meta-analysis 
  • 2023 A Review on Biological Effects of Ultrasounds: Key Messages for Clinicians
  • “…ultrasound involves exposure to a form of energy, so there is the potential to initiate biological effects. Some of these effects might, under certain circumstances, be detrimental to the developing fetus.” (International Society of Ultrasound in Obstetrics and Gynecology (ISUOG), 2009)
    “Currently, there is no reliable evidence that ultrasound is harmful to a developing fetus. No links have been found between ultrasound and birth defects, childhood cancer, or developmental problems later in life. However, it is possible that effects could be identified in the future. For this reason, it is recommended that ultrasound exams be performed only for medical reasons by qualified health care providers” (American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, 2013)
• Great Birth Rebellion Episode 2 - The medicalisation spectrum

Chapters

• 2:48 Discovering freebirth
• 6:00 Family Birth Narratives and Societal Expectations
• 12:00 Navigating Pregnancy Decisions and Medical Interactions
• 21:00 Understanding Cultural Perspectives on Birth
• 46:00 The Journey of Labor and Birth
• 55:21 Postpartum Reflections and Challenges

Transcript

0:02

This is Birthing at Home, a podcast. I'm Elsie, your host. I'm a home birth mom of two little boys, a doula in Melbourne supporting birth at home. I'm a mental health nurse and the co-creator of Home Birth Victoria. If you want to learn more about me, the podcast or my work as a doula, check out www.birthingathome.com.au. Before we begin, I would like to acknowledge the Wurundjeri people who are the traditional custodians of the land I'm recording on in Nam, Melbourne, Australia. I would also like to acknowledge the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples have been birthing at home on country for tens of thousands of years prior to the British invasion and acknowledge that sovereignty has never been ceded. This is episode 57 and today we hear from Monique from the Northern beaches in Sydney who shares her free birth story with her first baby, Jonathan or Jojo. Monique's normal boring free birth story is so interesting. given her own birth impree includes both her and her brother having been born via C-section. It's a beautiful story and lovely to listen to how Monique learned about free birth and the confidence that she had in her body. Make sure to check out the birth video. The link will be in the description and I hope you enjoy this episode. Please share it and rate or review on Apple or Spotify. Welcome Monique to Birthing at Home, a podcast. Hi, Elsie. Thanks for having me. Thank you for joining me. So you've just moved inside to where it's a little bit warmer. I was just saying that it's really warm here in Melbourne today, which is very random. But do you want to give a bit of background, to who you are, where you're located, who's in your family, that kind of thing? Yeah, of course. So my name's Monique. I just had my 26th birthday and I live on the Northern Beaches in Sydney. So I grew up here in Forestville and I'm back at my family house. I moved back home. with my mum to give birth to my son. So it's kind of come full circle. This is the house that I grew up in. What else? I just finished studying my undergrad a week before Jonathan came along. Wow. So was quite good timing. He was a surprise baby. So I was like, wow, thank you, Lord, that worked out really well. So I just finished studying. Social Science and Law majoring in Social Justice and I've just worked casually so I've never really had a career or a full-time job or anything like that. I don't think I would ever want to, to be honest. Cool. Yeah, so I work as a group fitness instructor and as a nanny and do some administrative work for our church. Amazing. And today you're going to be sharing your free birth with baby Jonathan. Yep, yes. Also known as Jojo. Jojo, that's so Yeah, if I say Jojo, that's him. Okay, excellent, excellent. So maybe to begin with, so like, how did you find Free Birth, especially as a first time mom, and also an unexpected, beautiful surprise? Like, how did you come across Free Birth? Yeah, gosh, I like I'm so thankful that I just happened across it. I think it was on Instagram, actually, and I have no idea. why at the time my algorithm would have been giving me anything related to birth. But anyway, it was through the normal boring free birth Instagram page. So they're based out of the UK. And I don't even know what post it was that I came across, but I'm quite an intuitive person. And I just remember either reading something about free birth or maybe it was more of a video clip. And it just clicked with me. Like I just was like, this makes sense. And I think, you know, if I get pregnant and give birth, I'd like love to have this. And so I think I just locked it away in my memory. time, I was like, yeah, this really sits well with me. For some reason, again, just intuitively, because I don't really have anyone in my family that's done a home birth or anything like that. Like we, me and my brother were both caesarean births from my mum. Yeah. So I don't know, I don't know how it came into my life, but I always pictured giving birth at home. I'm not sure why. I'm just not a hospital person. Like I'm quite lucky that in my 26 years of life, I've just never needed to go to hospital for anything. And I think I'm just inclined that way of like, you know, there's kind of two types of people where it's like either you're a hyper-conject and everything's like go to the doctor, or it's like, everything's like, I'm fine, it's all good. I'm more on the, I'm fine, it's all good side. So even with doctors, I never really tend to go to the doctor either. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so being, you know, having in your like your own birth story, like this, these C-sections and whatnot, What was the sort of messaging, do you remember like growing up around what birth would possibly be like, like what pregnancy would be like? Yeah, from my mum, I feel like I only heard like small bits and pieces. My mum like had some health difficulties and so I feel like, yeah, she was always just really happy that she could get pregnant and could give birth because she had an accident when she was younger and doctors told her that she wouldn't be able to like carry babies. so she was just really happy to have babies at all. And so I think she's really happy to like have us via caesarean section. With my brother, I think she went a little bit over 40 weeks and he was quite big. And so with me, she always describes my birth as like, I didn't want you to get too big. And so like I got you out two weeks early, meaning at 38 weeks. Yeah, whereas for me, like in my pregnancy, I'm very much like, there's no early or late, you know, like, I don't really believe in that. And so when she said, I got you out early, I'm like, well, yeah, I guess so. But I'm like, it's not really early or late is there. But for both of them, I don't think she went into spontaneous labor. But we never, I guess I didn't really know any of that language before kind of looking into my, my own things from my own pregnancy and birth. But I always just remember being described in that way of like, I didn't want you to be too big. And so I got you out two weeks early. So was just an elective caesarean. But yeah, I guess that was as far as we got in regards to if it was a positive or a negative experience. My mom's not really inclined that way to, I guess, society, things like that. She was just like, yeah, just happy to have you both. Yeah. And I guess, well, at least in my personal experience, and I suppose part of the motivation for this entire podcast is like, growing up, I didn't really hear like... details of birth stories. Like it wasn't really something apart from like in movies or TV shows that I really like saw. So like that narrative, like, yeah, how I came across home birth is yeah, also quite lucky as well. But yeah, like definitely that narrative within like general society is that you go to the hospital, it's going to hurt. There's going to be screaming. There's probably going to be a bed involved. It's going to be doctors and like at the end you have a baby and end of story. But yeah, that's really amazing that you still yeah, normal boring free birth podcast. They also have a really amazing Facebook group. I'm not sure if you can find it. Or if you have to like go via her podcast or their podcast. Yeah, I mean, so somehow I got in it somehow. I mean, it as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, cool. And so Jonathan or Jojo was a bit of a surprise. So Like how did you find out that you were pregnant? it actually was my husband being slewier than me. That's pretty common. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like he is a bit more aware of when my period is due than I am. Yeah. Yeah. And so it was my birthday and I just remember him saying things like, like, isn't your period due soon? Like was kind of around that time of month and I have a pretty regular period. And I was like, is it? Like, I don't even know. And we our whole marriage. So we've been married since March 2021 and we have only ever used natural family planning as contraception. And so, yeah, by this point I had stopped taking my temperature every day and I kind of was like, I think I know roughly my cycle. So I got a little bit laxed on that because we'd done a lot of travel. so it was just one of those inconvenient things where I was like, I just can't be bothered to take my temperature every morning. And so I hadn't for a while. yes, and so we didn't think we'd be pregnant. I thought I'm on top of it. I know when I'm fertile, I know when I'm infertile. And then it was coming up to the time when my period was due and it was my birthday week. And so I kind of had been expecting it all week, especially because I had a few events and so we're having family around and I'm like, okay, kind of keeping an eye out. You know, don't want to bleed on anything, that kind of thing. then it got to the end of that week. So this is early October, my birthday is October 9. And it got to October 15th, so the end of a full week. I'm like, huh, like my period still hasn't come. And so we'd gotten up early. It's around the time of year that it was the world cup because my husband is obsessed with rugby union. And so we had pretty much all of our Saturday, Sunday mornings. We were just up at ridiculous hours watching rugby. And we're at a friend's house who has two girls and they were cuddled up with my husband, Tam, on the couch. And I just was like, my gosh, like he's just gonna be the best dad someday. And I was just kind of ogling him and going, that's so sweet. And then I'm just off like with the fairies, everyone else is watching the rugby and I'm just thinking, my gosh, like, I wonder if I'm pregnant. And so everyone's like, know, like, surely no one's knowing I'm just off in my head kind of thinking and then I'm working out like, okay, like if I was pregnant, like when would I be due? And it worked out like pretty much exactly for when I knew I was going to be finishing my uni degree. I was kind of working out all these things and just thinking through everything. I'm like, I think I got myself hyped up that I was pregnant. Even though we weren't planning on being pregnant, I was like, my gosh, like I actually think now if I'm not, I'll be quite disappointed. And so we finished at our friend's house, probably around like eight or nine AM. And I was like, I think I have to go take a pregnancy test because I'm so excited. And I like, can't wait to find out if I'm pregnant or not. So literally in like, you know, a morning we're like, my gosh, our worlds could like change, like just turn around completely. And so on the way home, we just stopped by a pharmacy, grabbed some pregnancy tests and went home, took a pregnancy test. And much to our surprise, like literally we have a video of us like recording, waiting and like me seeing the result and being like, what do think it is? And he's like, I think no, because I was doing quite a good poker face. And he's like, you'd definitely be more excited if it was yes. And I showed him and just like burst out in tears after that. I'm not normally, yeah, I'm not normally an emotional person at all. Like I'm not one to cry very often. But yeah, I was just like, wow, this is one of those big moments. yeah, so that's how we found out. And so you find out and did you have like a wild pregnancy or what kind of like, What was the initial things that you were like, okay, maybe this is an option or that's an option or like, I'm definitely having a free birth without, you know, a midwife present or like, maybe, you know, how did that sort of decision making play out initially? had probably what I would say an almost wild pregnancy. I didn't really set out on, like, I think I discovered most of the things along the way. But it must have been quite early on because I remember thinking, okay, like we'll get a 12 week scan just to confirm like that bubs is all good before we kind of announce it to people. And I didn't really plan on getting any other scans. So it must have been at some point between finding out at probably would have been like four or five weeks along when we found out and the 12 week scan that I'd like consumed enough like birth things that I kind of had an opinion on stuff. And I feel like the main thing that led me towards more of a wild pregnancy was just hearing stories and most of the time interactions with people in, I guess, our medicalized maternity care system, just leading to negative things. And so for me, I was just quite protective of just being like, just don't want to have those negative things hanging around me in my pregnancy. Yeah. And my husband, Cam, like he's very supportive, but he hadn't listened to the same things I had. So. I kind of alluded to that. And it was at our 12 week scan that literally just that one interaction, he like immediately got it. And it's so crazy like how it can be such a small thing, but like, just so to give a short story of going in for our 12 week scan, I hadn't gone to a GP to confirm my pregnancy because we'd taken a pregnancy test. I booked in just at like, I don't know what it was anyway, some kind of place where they offer them and they'd given me the instructions for like, you know, drink this much water and then don't pee and then come in. And we went in and they're like, okay, like where are your referral forms? And I'm like, I don't have any, like I just emailed to book in and the lady at the reception was like, what do you mean? Like you didn't see your doctor, like you don't have any referral forms. Like she was very rude and very condescending. And I was like, no, I didn't. Like I took a pregnancy test and I knew I was pregnant and like I'm coming in to get my scan. And she's like, well, you can't, you need a referral. And I'm like, I don't think that's true. Like I actually think I can just pay for this service and get a scan done. And she was really adamant that we needed one. And so it turned out being this really stressful thing of like we'd arrived, our immediate family knew we were pregnant and they were getting our scan that day and they were waiting to hear the results. And it just like flipped from this really positive experience to this really negative stressful experience of them going, well, you you need to have a referral. Can you like see if you can do a quick telehealth with your doctor to give you a referral? Because otherwise you'll lose your appointment. And then they wouldn't have had another appointment until, you know, like a week or two later. And they're like... Well, we've been waiting for six weeks for this appointment and we only just find out now you didn't mention anything in the email. And so I quickly try and call and I don't have a regular GP because I just am not someone who's really needed to go visit the doctor. I'm very lucky to have been healthy to that point. And so I was like, I don't really have a regular GP. Like I saw one maybe a few years ago and I caught up that practice and he'd closed his books and you know, just all these things. And so in the end I had to pay for telehealth, was whatever it was, like $75 out of pocket, literally for a two minute phone conversation to say, hey, like I'm pregnant and I just need a referral to get this thing. And in the meantime of me organizing that, my husband, Cam had been talking to the receptionist and just like kind of challenging like, well, why do we need these things? And why can't we just get the scan? And it turns out you can just pay to get your scan. It's just more expensive because if you don't have a referral from your GP, you don't get it. Medicare rebate. Yeah. And I was just like, my gosh, all this headache and like, just for no reason. so yes, just like negative experience from the get go and then going in and getting like the form where they give you the information of getting an ultrasound done. And obviously this is my first pregnancy, first ultrasound. I signed the thing and I was a bit confused on the form. It kind of had two options. They had very similar language, but one was like for the internal versus the external like ultrasound. So like when you just do and obviously just going off things that I've seen, like again, in movies and all that kind of stuff, I just imagined that it would be the external one, like with the gel on the belly. And so I kind of signed the waiver and then I was like, wait, I'm actually a bit confused. Like, why are there two options? Because I was like, well, why is there a consent form? Like I'm going in to get this. What happens if I didn't sign the consent form? Like, would you even be able to do anything? And then she kind of... I looked into it and after I was like, there's like the internal one and she's like, it's all normal. And like, everyone says yes to it kind of thing. I was like, but like, I don't know if I want you putting something inside my vagina. Right. There was just like, no, she like, she was so just hurrying me along and like, it's just normal and everyone does it and you know, just sign it and just like so dismissive of my question and trying to understand what I was like signing for. And yeah, so was just a really bad vibe. Yeah. my goodness. like, it's very, it doesn't matter. yeah. I like, I've had those internal scans and I've had very negative experiences. think I've had two and both times they were very negative experiences. The first time I think, yeah, it was with my first pregnancy and, like they tried to do the external one, but maybe, yeah, it was like that 12 week mark and like, they would have trouble like seeing him like externally. So they wanted to do the internal, but then like they couldn't like for whatever. And it was, I ended up like cramping really bad after, and it was so painful. but yeah, like when, like it's like a conveyor belt, you feel like you're on a conveyor belt. Like it's normal. Like, let's just pump them out. Like, let's just do this. And they've like allocated this much time for like people. to just accept but they've not really allocated the time to actually go into and be like, okay, well, this is your options and this is why we might want to do this and this is my... But that's, yeah, I mean, that speaks for itself, right? Yeah, 100%. It just made me feel so dumb. She was just really condescending. That's the main word that wraps up the interaction was just like, so condescending, not at all. a fairly young woman, like first time coming in for an ultrasound, like no respect or dignity and like even bothering to try and explain this to me. Anyway, so it was fine. I'm like the sonographer was nice. Yeah, nice enough. think, you know, we get to the end of that scan and I kind of looked into the scans and gone, I don't really want any of the like NIPT and things like that. And even getting to the end of this, she's like, well, you know, you should have been doing your dating scan like three weeks ago and like you're late and then now you have to book in next week and do the NIPT. And it was all, again, that language of like not really giving much option or choice. And I knew that I did have a choice because I'd looked into things enough, but you know, so many people go, my gosh, like, okay, I have to get this yet. And I was like, new enough that I was like, no, I don't want to. But she was very much like, okay. And she's like, well, you should speak to your doctor about that. And yeah, I was like, no, I have any say over what you do with your own body. my goodness. And so this is pretty amazing. So your husband, Cam, you said his name was? Yeah. Cam. So prior to like going for this scan, had you sort of like talked about this, like what wild pregnancy is, like what free birth is like that kind of thing or not so much? Probably free birth, wild pregnancy. don't think I was like super committed either way. was like, look, if we need to, sure. But I don't think I had as much understanding of that as a concept. I think I kind of discussed what I wanted, but not had any labels for it. So I was like, look, I want to go into this scan and then like, we probably don't need any other scans. And it's kind of strange how I got to that opinion. That was actually through a random university subject that I did that was like an anthropology subject. And so it's looking at like, you know, different people groups and whatever. And I read this really interesting article and it was just about like the uprise of the use of ultrasounds, I think in Vietnam. And it was saying like, anyway, this is like such a random thing, it was really cool. And so was talking about how Vietnamese people were like, we just love seeing our babies. Like this is such cool technology and we love seeing our babies. So they were just booking scans all the time. And it kind of was looking at like, well, you know, we don't really know the full extent of like the harms and yeah, like if extended or like extra use of ultrasound is going to be like harmful. And so yeah, it was just one of those interesting things of looking at like Western medicine and technologies like coming into like traditionally non-Western context. so, and I think I learned a bit about birth through that as well, because I remember reading this book and it was about women like in the hills in Laos and how they birth. And it was very much like the birth culture there is like the woman you know, say she goes into labor in the middle of the night, like she would just leave the bedroom and go into the living room and like squat and like not yell, like silently give birth to a baby in the living room. Or, you know, like it's usually like a one or two bedroom house. Like it's not really, it's very different context. And then she'll go and get the other family members and the kids and say, look, here's your new sibling. And so it's just very, like, very, very different from our like Western understanding, but you know, anthropology. I love the description of it of like making weird things normal and normal things with like it's just taking us out of our context of like what's normal to us and what's weird to us and going, well, it's very different in different places in the world. And so I think that was my first probably exposure of thinking like, like birth doesn't have to be how it is in Australia. Yeah, it's very, yeah, like very valid birth experiences and birth cultures in other places in the world. And so just loved that, that it wasn't this dramatic event. It was very much like, women felt capable to do it. even the fact that, and it's not necessarily a good or a bad thing, but just a thing that like they give birth silently, like they don't scream and yell. Like it's just kind of part of their culture that it's quite a silent thing. Yeah. So anyway, through that subject exposed me to this thing of like, why are we getting all these scans? And even though there's no, like nothing much to say that, you know, people would say they're safe and it's all good, that kind of thing. I guess I'd looked into some stuff that was like, we don't really know like if there are potentially harms. And so I was like, well, I don't really need to get extra scans. So that was kind of my opinion for being like, okay, I'll get the 12 week. I'll make sure Bubs is okay. And then I'll kind of go from there and see what happens. Yeah. And Cam, yeah, Cam, I think our dynamic, I'm very opinionated. He's very happy to go, like he's very happy to trust me if I know something, like if I'm looking into something more than him, he's like, well, I trust that you're like a reasonable person. And so he was very happy to kind of go with the flow, but definitely his side of the family, maybe a little bit geared towards being like, like our maternity care system exists like this for a reason and it's good to be in hospital, like that kind of belief system. So it was more. that that was difficult, but he was very trusting of me to make the right decisions. Yeah. I just find it like so amazing that, you know, you go to this scan and like, you're like trying to organize this telehealth thing. And then I can just imagine that Cam's like at the receptionist, like asking the receptionist like, well, but why? And like, you know, that the disruption of the status quo, but like the fact that he was like with you from, you know, from the get go, that's, that's incredible. That's really, really amazing. Yeah, I think we both agree. Like me, naturally, I'm quite like a rebellious person in the sense of like, if something's arbitrary, I will push back on it because I'm like, I don't buy the following rules if they're there for good reason. But if they're arbitrary, I'm like, no, I don't like this. And I think Kam shares a similar opinion. He was in the military for four years. And there's a lot of things where it's like, well, you just have to do this because I say so. Yeah. And that's kind of just a culture because it's like, well, if I'm above you in some sense and I tell you to do something, even if there's no good reason, you just have to do it. Yeah. And so I think we were both, yeah, very much of that opinion of like, if something's arbitrary and someone can't even explain to you why that is the case, like. Why should we follow that? totally. And so I think that was him having the conversation with the receptionist being like, why can't you do this again? Like, why do we need to have this referral saying that she's pregnant when we've done a pregnancy test and we know that she's pregnant? Yeah. So yeah. Actually, I just, I, sorry, just to add another thing about the scan. So the, the experience that I had with Frankie, which is my second son, was that I just like, the 20 weeks scan, like with so many 20 week scans, the placenta was like low lying, low lying. And so I agreed to go in at 30 whatever weeks to have a scan to quickly check the position of the placenta. And it was meant to be like this quick thing. They only had to check where the placenta, the insertion point was or whatever. And so I go in with my referral that like the midwife's written and They just could not comprehend that this is the only thing that I wanted. They just and it caused so much fuss. I thought like I went in, thought it was going to be 10 minutes. I was going to be a little bit late for work. So I hadn't bothered to bring my husband. Like I just thought, you know, the referral literally says do this thing. Whatever. And it caused so much drama. They were like trying to call the obstetrician or whoever like is in charge of like the sonography, practice, whatever, trying to get his permission to like do this. And I was like, but it doesn't make like, it literally says on the referral through this thing. And because yeah, I was pushing back on like what the status quo was. It was like, they just couldn't like get out of that mindset. Like it's like, you know, our way or the highway. and it was just, yeah, it was very horrible, but I can imagine how that experience played out for you. Yeah. And like what you're saying, you know, again, I've kind of gone, well, I don't plan on getting a 20 week scan. Because from what I've thus far was like, okay, if you do have low light for center, most of the time it will fix itself. And you know, you're just going in for another scan to go, yeah, like, all good or not all good. then we'll do it for another scan. And so I was like, well, why would I go in at 20 weeks? And wouldn't I just go in right before I'm due and like, just check it in? And so that was kind of my perspective. I was like, if I do need one. I won't go in at 20 weeks because I don't need to know that at 20 weeks. like 95 or whatever it is, the time, it's going to like fix itself because then I think, well, you just have all these things that do for like three months of being like, am I going to have this? And yeah, anyway, so I decided, no, I probably am not going to do it. But I have a friend who's a sonographer and it's funny because I just happened to be having dinner with her the night that we got our 12 weeks. I told her like we're pregnant and she's. And I forgot that she was a sonographer. We'd just gone on like a mission trips together to Bangladesh. So I'd known her for like 10 days. So we're close in the sense that we'd hung out for a long time, but I just didn't know her profession. And so she's like, my gosh, why didn't you come and see me? Like you could have just popped in and popped out. it, cause I said like, it was not a good experience. And she's like, you shouldn't have gone to them. You should have come to me. And so I was like, okay, if I need any other scans, like I'll keep that in mind. And then I kept seeing her cause we're going to the same thing on a Monday night. And she was very much like, you need to get your 20 week scan. And I was like, why don't you get my 20th? She was saying like, just the main thing is the placenta. And I was like, okay, well, I'll come later if I need to, because if it is just the placenta, I'm happy to just wait and check later on. So she kind of was nagging me each week, like, are you going to come get your scan? Are you going to come get your scan? And I was very undecided. And I ended up getting literally what you want it like a quick in and out scan at 36 weeks. And it was very simple. was she put it on. Yep. Your placenta is at the front. And I mean, couldn't they have done that instead? They made me do an internal. They said the orange and I was yeah, I was. Yeah, I must have been like roughly 36 weeks. So I was very pregnant and they told me that the only option was the internal. They said, well, if you want this scan, it will be the internal one. It was I mean, I've told this story on the podcast before, so I apologize for anybody who's heard this story before, but it just like. I really understand what you're saying. It's very, it's, I only, if I didn't know the person, I wouldn't have taken that risk, risk and gone in, but it's because she was a friend and I knew that I'd push back enough being like, I'm literally doing it. This is for your piece of mind. Like I have peace of mind. I feel very fine. Like going ahead, not knowing in the sense of like knowing by someone else telling me, yeah, because at the front, I was like, feel fine, but like, I know you're going to be anxious for me for like the next few weeks. I was like, look, I'm happy to just come in and check. And I don't think I would have done it if it wasn't a friend who was very much respectful of like, it'll just be like, very, very quick. Like I went in before work hours, she just like squeezed me in before she started her work day. So I was very lucky to have that. But yeah, so they were my only two scans that I had in my pregnancy. Just pausing here to let you know about this episode's sponsor. The Dear Me Mother-to-be Pregnancy Journal was created for the brave women who want to be transformed during pregnancy. It is a one of its kind pregnancy journal. filled with 48 reflective questions to facilitate powerful inner work and healing and assist with mental preparation for labor and motherhood. It goes deep on many topics that commonly arise for women during pregnancy, such as addressing labor fears, the mother wound and worries about motherhood. There are also many questions that can be shared with your pregnancy and birth support team. The questions were carefully formulated by experienced counselor and home birthing mother Stephanie Bevert. She was driven to create the journal after her own empowering pregnancy and birth experience and her knowledge of how powerful inner work can be during pregnancy. Dear Me Mother To Be is proudly a mom run Australian business who ships Australia wide. Visit the website www.dearmemothertob.com for your order and access free pregnancy resources. And so like, so you go through your pregnancy, like Did you have like any fears or anything that you like heard that like on a podcast or read or anything like that that came up, they were like, hmm, I really need to like look into that. Or even with Cam, like did he have any particular concerns or fears that you are aware of? I did not have really any concerns or fear. I think because all of my research, led me towards just being like, I'm healthy and well and I've had a good pregnancy and I really trust that birth is going to work. Yeah, so I think one thing that's helpful is like recognizing I'm definitely, know, the great birth rebellion there. Second episode is about like the medicalization spectrum. And I'm definitely on the side of just like trusting that most of the time birth works and it's safe. And it's, you know, like it's great to have the medical system there for when we need it, but it's just overused. So I'm definitely towards like the physiological side of trusting birth. Yeah, because I think when you look into it, you realize what's in your control and what's not. yeah, I was like, feel like I've done all the things to make it like the healthiest, best possible birth that I could. Like, for example, even from 20 weeks, I was like very much on like the optimal maternal positioning and like not leaning back in my chair, leaning forward to encourage bugs to be in the right position and like doing everything that was in my control to be like, I want to have this baby freely at home. And so what can I do in my pregnancy to make that possible? Everything that's opening the pelvis. I've never seen a chiro before, but I went to the chiro, I went to the osteo, because I was like, anything that's going to make more space, anything that's just going to mean I'm going to be best positioned to have a good birth. Not that I think you have to do those things, but I was like, it's my first birth. If this is what I want, like I'm going to, you know, do what I can. And it's beneficial, like regardless of if you're pregnant or not, like it's great to be able to do that. But I think I only wanted to invest in that when I was like, okay, it's for. I think it's always like hard to invest in yourself, just yourself. But because it was for like me and Bob's and the birth that we wanted, I was like, okay, I'm happy to invest in that sense of going to the car every few weeks to check in. And I was really lucky in the sense that I've been a fitness instructor. I'm fit, I'm healthy. I've been well most of my life. So, you know, when people say, could never do that. I'm like, well, you know, maybe you're not as confident, like in where you're at. And I was very much like, I feel fine. I don't think there's anything where I'm like, I'm going to need medical help or support. Yeah, so I was always very confident. Cam Lesser, again, just from I think he kind of had more subconscious beliefs about birth and about the fact that he's only known hospital birth. and I guess just like the stories from his family line, it was very much like, I'm glad we were in hospital or that kind of thing. So that was definitely the narrative on that side. but yeah, he definitely came on the journey with me. And I think like from pretty early on, like he's like as great an advocate as I am for like home birth, being safe and, all those sorts of things. The only thing he was concerned about were like emergency situations. And I think when we just looked into the possible emergency situations, it was like, look, there's actually not. that many. And we live five minutes from a hospital. So again, not going to be everyone's story. But for us, we're like, we're very well positioned in the sense that, like, we don't feel unsafe being close to a hospital if we did need to transfer. But yeah, we just kind of narrowed it down. like, look, the chances of emergency things happening are not very high. So we were just happy to take that risk. yeah, absolutely. And I always like think about Yeah, well, I mean, personally, I always think about it like, you know, how many people drive cars and like how many car accidents happen. And like, that doesn't mean you never get in the car. I mean, maybe some people don't. Or like, yeah, riding a bike, like on the road next to cars, like crazy things happen all the time. And most of it is out of your control because at end of the day, you got to live your life. yeah, I for me was. like the risk that you're willing to take. And for me, with the birth that I wanted, you know, all the time, the classic phrase when you say, I'm giving birth at home, people say, my gosh, you're so brave. And I go, I'm not brave. I'm like, I, it would be brave of me to give birth in a hospital. I don't feel like I'm brave giving birth at home. I'm making a very conscious decision for the birth that I want. know, brave has that implication of like, you're doing something that is scary to you. Like, you know, and I'm like, No, I'm not brave because I actually don't think it's scary. Like I'm actually quite happy to give birth at home. And I actually think people who give hospital birth in hospital are brave because you're going into this setting that is so not conducive if you want to have a natural physiological birth. so, yeah, people would constantly say that to me. And I just like it's just such a misunderstanding of like, yeah, how birth works. Yeah. And so I think when you look into like the physiological process, if you do want to have that kind of birth. it makes so much more sense to be at home. Like, you know, even the phrase of like the first intervention is getting in the car to go to hospital. Like that interrupts the process. And yeah, I just, for me personally, like I couldn't think of anything worse than being in labor and having to get into the car to go to hospital. I was so happy to stay at home. And so, yeah, just such a different narrative because of everything that we subconsciously consume of like, you know, the fact that 97 % of births happen in hospital. It's like, of course. That's what we see. That's what we know. That's what we assume is best for us. But when you look into it, yeah, it's very far from true. Yeah. Yeah. And so you're on this journey through your pregnancy. Did you like connect with anybody that had had a free birth or had that birth at home before? I did have a friend who has done home births. Yeah. So I knew about her. And I'd messaged her to see if she, I think at the beginning, I was really keen on looking for someone that was previously a midwife, but now just a doula. And I thought for some reason that maybe she had had someone at her birth who was like that, but it turns out she just had a midwife at her home birth. And I kind of decided I definitely wanted a doula. I was undecided about the private midwife. I had inquired with one. It turns out a friend from my church that had a home birth and so she when she found out I was going to birth at home, she said, my private midwife was really good and she's local. And I reached out to her and didn't hear a response back. And I just like wasn't particularly keen on following up. I knew that I would want to do a lot. And so I'd message someone that I come across on Instagram to catch up with her. I'd gone through a few Dula directories and had a few conversations with people over the phone or zoom. And the first jeweler I connected with, we met up in person and I asked her like, well, what are the differences? What would a midwife offer that a jeweler wouldn't offer? And pretty much everything she listed, I was like, well, I don't want that. So I just want a jeweler. Like it was just very matter of fact. I was like, the medical things I don't want. And so it doesn't make sense to me to pay more for something that I'm just going to decline. Yeah. So I was very happy just with the support that a dual offers. Like it was just very matter of fact. I like, just want someone who has seen births because you know, obviously I can know all the things about birth, but I've never actually done it. know, like that's, you can know all the things, but it's very different to be a birth worker and to have seen a lot of normal births and to have experience in that. So I was very comfortable just having a dual there. Yeah. Yeah. I think that like influenced my first birth as well, because I had seen birth as a student midwife in a hospital setting. And so with Murphy, I was having a home birth, but like, as it turns out, no, I had two midwives and I was meant to have a student midwife. It was COVID, so the student midwife ended up not being able to be there. But ultimately no one in the room had ever had a home birth. So I just, and then like, with my, I mean, maybe it's a little bit different to what you're talking about, but like then with Frankie, I felt like the student midwife that I had, she had had a home birth. And if it wasn't for her being there, I would have been in the same situation that like, I think it's just different like to have seen birth, but also seen the birth that you're trying to achieve. And I think there's an extra level to that when you've also, You know, like I feel like you would be able to provide good support in physiological birth because you know what you know, what your experience is and passing on that knowledge, like what what has worked for you like that? That's I mean, that's the power of storytelling, right? That's really cool. Did you say? Yeah. And I mean, that's not the first time I've actually heard also that midwives have not gotten back to people. And that's like, I mean, that's a sign, right? Like, yeah, I was like, I'm not fast. Yeah, it's not meant to be exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah, because I didn't want, know, like I want, I think as well, like, again, everyone's different and made sense for me so much because I'm like, I'm stubborn. And like, I knew that I wanted to not have medical interventions in my birth. I knew I wanted to do a natural birth. And so I'm like, I wouldn't even want to be offered anything. Yeah. And so I was like, well, you know, if you do want the option to be offered, you know, medical assistance, absolutely. It makes sense to do a home birth with a private midwife rather than a free birth. But for me, I was like, I don't want that. And so it doesn't make sense that, yeah, to me to have a midwife instead of a doula. And you saved six, $7,000. So yeah. Cool. Was there anything else in particular like about your pregnancy that you wanted to mention? I feel like I just love to mention that me, you know, choosing what kind of interactions I wanted to have with medical people in my pregnancy, just I had such a peaceful, non-anxious pregnancy. I just feel like I've heard so many other people who were pregnant at the same time, who constantly were kind of fielding anxieties. And it was from things they were being told at their scans, like your baby's measuring too big or your placenta is low lying and all these things. And I just think... For me personally, I'm like, stress has such an impact on us. And so to be in a stressful situation, it's not to say like be naive and don't find out anything. And like, it's, you know, it's bad to take tests and know, because for some people that's going to ease their anxiety and they like doing that. But if you're someone where it's not going to help anything, it's like, it's not worth harboring that anxiety during your pregnancy when you're growing your baby. And so I just was so thankful that I did not have, I was just so at ease my entire pregnancy. And Yeah, I just feel like that was a really big blessing. only time, literally only time, I'm not even exaggerating, the only time I had any kind of like meltdown moment in my pregnancy was just after I'd seen a women's health physio and she had said about like not lying on your back after a certain amount of weeks. Yeah. And I wish I'd listened to the Great Birth Rebellion episode on this before because I had one of those moments where you wake up in the middle of the night on your back and it was like the next day. you know, I think it was around 20 ish weeks. so like, you know, bubs movements were not super frequent. But I just remember the next day just having so much anxiety being like, my gosh, like I haven't felt baby and I just feel so anxious and so worried because of the comment that she'd made. And it wasn't, yeah, it wasn't necessarily truthful, but I was more asking like, look, I'm still exercising like my normal exercise routine. I'm still doing everything the same because I still feel really good. And she just said like, just don't be on your back. It was kind of like this thing that she emphasized. And I was like, okay. I haven't really been taking that that seriously so far because I felt fine. I haven't felt dizzy standing up after I've, you know, I've only been on for short amount of times, blah, blah, blah. And it was, yeah, it was only after that interaction of like someone else kind of speaking in and saying something, which sometimes is well founded. Like I, know, yeah, absolutely. If you're not feeling good after you lie in your back, that's yeah, makes sense. Yeah, but I was feeling fine. Yeah. And there's much more nuance to it than that. But that was the only time that I was like anxious and like worried. And yeah, no other time did I have anything. Yeah. The other provider like care providers that I had in my pregnancy, being my osteo my chiro had the same birth philosophy of me. They were very trusting of birth, very happy with my like decisions. And this person I didn't quite gel with, like it's not someone that I went back to see. And so. Yeah, it was just awesome to have people alongside my pregnancy who were like very much just supportive of the birth that I wanted to have and supporting that along the way and not saying things even while meaning but like saying things that would cause me to be anxious. Because that was the worst one day of my life. Of course, of course. And then yeah, like the summer causes so much guilt because like when you're asleep, how can you control like what you're doing? Like, you don't need to be waking up at two a.m. the middle of the night having a breakdown. my gosh. I'm the worst person ever. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Amazing. And so what sort of so you were going to have a doula and your husband, Cam, was anybody else coming along to the bar? Yeah, I wanted a birth video. So I had a birth videographer. And you were going to birth like at. Cause you said you're at your in-laws now or your parents, your, your mom's. Yeah. and where did you give birth at? Literally right across from where I'm looking right now. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. and I guess, you know, in mom's house, like what did mom think of all of this? Yeah, my mom is much more anxious than me. Yeah, like quite the opposite. She is anxious about way too much and I'm probably anxious about not quite enough. So yeah, I evicted her from the house during my labor and birth. So it's kind of the opposite to doing a hospital birth where like you have to your bag. was like, Mom, you have to pack your bag. Yeah, she definitely was, yeah, express more anxiety about it during but she knows that I'm smart and I'm strong and I'm independent and I'll make my own decisions. So yeah, she kind of was just like, are you sure? All that kind of stuff. But yeah, when I went into early labor, I kind of said, hey, like you might be meeting your grandson this weekend, you're going to have to pack a bag. And we, she has both like her partner and her parents in the same suburb as us. was like, just go wherever you need to go. I don't know how long it'll take, but like at least for tonight. And she was, yeah, she was fine. Yeah. And how many weeks roughly was Jojo born? He was born at 39 weeks. Cool. And so in the lead up like those weeks before, did you have like any signs that your body was getting ready that labor? at all. Like he was a surprise, you know, pregnancy, was a surprise birth in the sense that I was, you know, because I wasn't on anyone's timeline, I was preparing to go to 43 weeks, you know, like I was like, I hear the stories, you know, even more than 43 weeks. I was like, their stories of even longer than that. You know, it's an estimated due date. was very much of that perspective. I was like, no one asked me at 40 weeks. Like I'm like, I don't believe in that. It's an estimated due date. Like he can come whenever he wants. I'm not rushing him out. So it was very, very unexpected that he came before 40 weeks. Cause I was preparing for the long haul. know, giving birth at 39 weeks when you're preparing for 43 weeks, I thought I had another four weeks. yeah, totally. was like, I'm ready because I think because there's such a like countdown kind of culture in our birthing, you know, it's like people which they did like three weeks to go two weeks to go one week to go and then it's like you get to 40 weeks it's like, they're not here. Okay. then you get a little bit. Yeah, I know. But then people get almost like I was so over my pregnancy at the end. I just wanted them to come out and I just didn't want that experience. I was like, I don't want to be over it at all. I want it to be special. don't want to be like, when is this baby going to come? Like I want it to be positive. And so I was preparing for the long haul, so I didn't have that. And it definitely worked because I was like, my gosh, I can't believe I'm going into labor right now. Like 39 weeks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That is very cool. how did it all start then? Yeah. was first thing was my water's breaking. it's, yeah. So it's quite funny. The friends that we were at the morning that we decided to do the pregnancy test and find out. there must be something going on in that house because we had dinner with them that night. It was a Friday night and I came home, I was peeing before bed and I just felt this like liquid drop out that I was like, that wasn't pee. Yeah. And so I was just like, like maybe that was some of my waters. And so told Cam, I was like, I think I just had some like amniotic fluid come out and he's like, you know, tells me after he's like, I was kind of like, my gosh, like, yeah, I'm like freaking out. And I'm like, you know, don't freak out. Like early labor can go for ages. So I don't want to like. you know, get too excited or anything. But waters was the first sign. And then we went to bed pretty much immediately afterwards. And I had like pretty regular contractions from then. So like I would say I had like a very standard textbook physiological birth. Like my waters broke and then I was contracting. It wasn't the same each time, but probably every minute, like probably a minute every 10 minutes, like pretty much all of overnight. And I only found that out after a couple hours. So I probably was contracting from 10pm till about midnight. And then I remember at midnight waking Cam up and going like, I've been having some contractions. Would you mind putting the TENS machine on me? And so then I kind of knew because the TENS machine tells you like, yeah, you do the policy thing. And so yeah, like more or less like some are longer, some are shorter, but like more or less. Yeah. Every 10 minutes, I'd have one minute contraction for all of overnight. Yeah. Wow. And what kind of stuff were you doing? Like, did you have like a pool or like, but you see you the tens machine obviously, but like we're using water or anything. Overnight, just the tens machine. So like early label was, I would say like pretty chill. Like I was finding the contractions pretty manageable. It was more exciting. I was kind of excited. Like, my gosh. and so overnight was super chill. just lay in bed, just did the tens machine the whole time. And then I texted my jeweler in the morning and just explained the situation. and said like, what should I do? I don't think I fully understand like the role of melatonin at the time. I was like, should I? Because we have this big, like block out blinds that we set up for when bubs was coming. So like, we want to be able to make it dark when we want to make it dark. And so I was like, should I like to stay in the dark room because I'm in labor and I don't want to disrupt it. And she's like, No, no, go back your day like doesn't play a role in the day anyway. So that's fine. And so I booked a yoga class. that morning and so I went along to my yoga class with my tense machine on and just said like, I'm in early labor so I'm just going to do like my own thing. just so you know. Yeah, which is quite funny. Because even I was like going quite pregnant. And so I always had to like adjust and do different things to the rest of the class. And so I was like, yeah, like I'm just going to be chilling and just getting through. So I did that and then we were down at like one of our favorite beaches where we got engaged. And so we just kind of chilled at the beach for a little bit. And then when we're ready, just waddled back to the car, went home. And then when we got home, decided to tell our parents, yeah, that we're in labor and that they would be meeting their grandson soon. Because the Kams parents, they had been traveling that like the whole year, but they're from Bathurst originally. So about four hours from where we are. But they just happened to be coming down that weekend, like not expecting that maybe would be born. But I was like, how perfect timing is this? Like they're going to be here to meet their grandson on the other side. We won't have to do the whole like, he's born so you can come now. Like they were already here. Which is great. We just had to find a place for them to stay other than our house. But it was awesome to have them around. So we told them. And yeah, so mom packed her bag and was probably out of the house from maybe midday. To be honest, my like labor when it went into like the more intense labor, I probably could have like now that I reflect on it, I'm like, it could have been more pleasant. I think I was quite just dealing with it like at the time. And because we weren't fully prepared, like we had some things we wanted to do, like take some things out of the room to make space for the birth pool. We had a little garland with like the name Jonathan that we're going to hang up on the wall. so Cam was like in, you know, doing mode, like, have all these things that need to get done. And I was just like laboring on the bed most of the time. So what did I do? I would lie down with a pillow in between my legs. You know, by the time it got more intense, the TENS machine, was like, okay, TENS machine isn't doing it for me anymore. I'm taking that off. I'm moving to different things. But we had a bunch of stuff. We had the birth ball, we had a birth sling that my jeweler lent me. Yeah. And so I was kind of just alternating between the birth ball and the bed. But I did find like on reflecting, I had a couple hours where I was just like contracting just on the bed and I kind of just like couldn't get myself to move. I was like, I'm just like surviving these contractions at the moment. But in hindsight, like I think, Minnick, why didn't you move? you, you know, I've heard so many stories where it's like, movement can be really helpful. But I just didn't have it in me at the time. just like, literally, I think I powered up all the pillows that we had on our bed and I just like was face down on the pillows, like just surviving through the contractions. And my doula came around 4 p.m. So I probably had like three hours of just like, yeah, like survival contractions. And then she came, which was great to have that extra support because Cam, again, was like getting things done. And so she came and she brought like compression spiky balls. And then that was like my next. next good thing that I was like, okay, this is my new thing that I'm introducing that's getting me through. And that really helped as well. And then as the label went on again, I kind of got sick of that doing that on the bed. And then I moved out into the hallway where we had the birth sling set up with the birth ball. And then I was using the birth sling and the birth ball. So kind of like sitting on the ball, pulling on the sling. And yeah, again, like it was all just really intense. And I was like, I think once I was set up somewhere, I was like, I'm just staying here. And so being out in the hallway was while the birth pool was getting filled. We had a bit of a dilemma with the birth pool in that Cam read something online where he's like, because we don't have a great hot water supply. And we always knew that was going to be an issue. So like, okay, we'll just have to use whatever hot water we have. And then we'll just have to boil kettles and pots and all that kind of stuff. But he read something that said like, you can fill it up half with cold water and then just like put the hot water in and it should be fine. Like it'll be warm by the time you do like. the cold and then the hot. And it just like did not heat up. so there was like, probably at least like an, like, I don't know, because I have no idea of the timings, but maybe like 30 to 60 minutes of just like futile putting in hot water into cold water and then not making any difference. And so at some, yeah, I know. And I was like, when is the freaking birth will gonna be ready? Like I was like, every time Pam walked past me, I'm like, when is the birth will gonna be ready? Like so salty at him. But it's quite funny because like my duelist is like, you didn't say anything to me. And I think it's like, because you know, Cam being the person that it's like, okay, I'm used to being like, you know, you can be a bit annoying with your partner. Yeah, totally. And so I'm like, when is it ready? When is it ready? And she she's like, you were so true with me. Every time she walked past with like a boiling thing, I was like, I just was getting through it. But every time Cam walked past, it's like, you know, grabbing his arm, like, when is it going to be ready? Move quicker with that boiling water. Yes, literally. Anyway, so they decided to siphon it all out and start again. no. Yes. And literally I was like, I don't even care. Get me in the cold bath pool. was like, I'll take anything at this point. my goodness. Yeah. But I think it was good in that it meant I kept having contractions until it was a little bit more intense outside of the pool. And then I got into the pool and he was born in the pool. So I think it was good, but it's definitely, I was at the point of being like, I need a change. Like I would like to get in the pool, but I had to wait. So I probably had to wait like. up to an hour. because it's at that point where the contractions are the most intense and you're not getting much break in between, it felt like so long because there was so many contractions. yeah, it was an intense time, but then it was nice to get into the nice long bath. And that's where I was like until he was born. So yeah, I kind of had my three spots. I had my bed, I had the birth ball with the sling, and then I had the birthing pool. Yeah. and so how, like when, when was Jojo born? Like how did that all play out? Yeah, well, it's always funny discussing the timings because obviously I didn't have any like examinations to say, you're this many sentences dilated. And, you know, being my first birth, like I had no idea like when he was going to be coming. And so, like I said, they'd gotten quite contractions had gotten quite intense outside of the pool. And then I think, I think it was like two hours that I had in the pool and my pushing was probably like the last hour. Yeah. It feels like a lot less because the gaps got bigger. So I feel like I had way less like kind of pushing contractions. And so to me, it probably felt more like half an hour, but I think realistically it wasn't out. just was used to contractions taking a certain amount of time and there being that short gap in between. like Cam kind of reflects to me like, you had a lot longer in between them because there was so much more intense. But yeah, what I was saying, I like, I had the pretty standard like physiological birth in the sense that I, yeah, when I say pushing, was like fetal ejection reflex. Like it definitely my body deciding like we are pushing this out, not me going, I'm pushing. was like my body going, okay, like the baby is there and we get it. And like it's coming out. which is pretty crazy. Just that shift. And it's so funny because obviously I've heard about transition, all that kind of stuff. And I always describe in my story, like I had a one sentence transition, which was I think I was quite internal in my labor in the sense that because personality wise, I'm quite independent. I'm quite tough and stubborn. I hadn't really said much or like leaned on my doula for much support in like words. Like I'm just not a words person, I don't think. But yeah, that was my one sentence transition was when I think internally I must have just gone, this is really hard. Like this is really hard. And I had no idea. how long it would be, I've never given birth before, so I was like, do I have 10 more contractions or 100 more contractions? Do I have another hour or another 24 hours? Like I literally had no idea. I've never done this before. I don't know if I'm even close. And obviously she couldn't actually tell me, but I was like, my sounds, like anything, you like give me a bit of an idea? Like, do you think I'm close? Because that was kind of my reach out to be like, this is really hard and I don't know if it's gonna be super, like way longer. I'm like, make it through. And so she gave some vague non-answer of like, don't know what it was, but you know, like, I remember thinking at the time, like, okay, well, you, like, of course you can't actually give me a true answer. Like, who knows, who knows how long it is. But I remember thinking like, well, it's not very helpful, but anyway, it was, you know, nice and supportive or whatever, as best as you can do when you don't actually know. But literally the next contraction I had was completely different, like it. Bub's drop down and it was my body like, yes, like this baby's coming through. And so that was my one sentence transition where I was like, got to that point of like, this is really fricking hard. And like, kind of need someone to go like, what's going on? Like, how long is it going to be? thank you, Jonathan, because he's like, okay, I'm coming. Wow. do you remember what it was like, like him coming out? Yeah, it just. The way I describe it is like it physically was so much more intense, but mentally so much more easy because, you know, at that point of before where I was like, I have no idea. Like I have no idea how much longer this is going to be. You know, like that's such a big range. Like, is it going to be 10 more contractions or a hundred more contractions, one more hour or 24 hours? Like that's massive. And so as soon as it shifted, like it was so much easier mentally for me to handle, even though the intensity physically was like. like I described birth, like the most intense thing you'll ever go through. Like it is intense. And so, yeah, like sensation wise, just like my whole body, like just working, like doing everything to push baby out was super intense. Like I needed to rest for like, I don't know how long it was in between contractions, but it's like, I needed that rest. And then when another one would come and be like, my gosh, okay, here we go again. And I just remember thinking like when I started to get the ring of fire, It was like, okay, like starting to feel that stretching kind of feeling. And I think, you know, at some point during the pushing phase, I said to Cam like, can you see his head? Because I was like, surely you can see his head by now. Like surely. Yeah. Surely we're almost at the end of the stretching, you know, like there can't be that much more stretching to happen. And he's like, no, I can't see the head. And I just was like, my gosh, like his head is not even there. And I think it was also just a mix of like the angle. Like I think he just couldn't see it. But I was like, my gosh, like I thought his head would almost be out by now, like based on the sensations I had. And so it was that feeling of like, surely I can't stretch anymore. And then it's like each contraction, it's like, okay, yes, there's more stretch. Okay, yes, there's more stretch, like kept going. But in saying that I didn't tear. And he came out like everything in one push. And I was like, and I was very much, you know, it's funny looking back on my birth video and you hear my doula say like, Okay. Nice and slow now cause his head had come out. and so I was like breathing through it. wasn't trying to like be like, okay, I need to get this baby out in one push. yeah, once his head was out, it was like just that little bit extra of the contraction and then his body came out as well. yeah. the water. Whoa. Yep. Whoa. And my gosh. Do you like, can I see this video? Yes. It's on my Instagram. it? yeah. Which is like kind of a big decision to put it up. I did some, what do call it? editing. Yeah. Not editing, but I put like, yeah, that's the word I for. did some sensor just over the more graphic bit. Totally. I was like, Instagram would have banned me. But it is like quite raw. so obviously again, I'm probably like a little bit more radical and my husband is way more conservative. he's like, no, don't put that on your Instagram. But I was like, again, the whole reason behind it. why you have this podcast, right? Of just being like, want people who are interested, like absolutely 99 % of people are going to be like, my gosh, like I don't want to see that. Totally fine. But for those people who are like, I want to see birth because I like, there's no opportunity to do it. Let's know we don't talk about it. And so was like, I want to put it out because for the people that it's going to help, it's going to be really helpful. yeah, so it was kind of a decision where I was like, I really like put all this raw footage up? But yeah, I put it up in three parts of my Instagram and That's great. Like, yeah, people were really supportive. Like, I think, you know, I have people in my life where like, if someone was not like, sure, they'll talk about me behind my back, but like, good. But you know, I was like, you know, people are not going to be like hating on me or whatever. I was like, it's fine. Like, they can say what they want to say. But lots of people were really supportive and like, this is great. And, you know, so glad to have this to just have, you know, like a bit of an idea and a visual picture of like, this is what birth can look like. Yeah. Yeah, that's amazing. I can't wait to see that. I'm definitely going to check that out after this. and I'll make sure to share it so everybody else can see it. I'll put it in the description as well. then the plus the placenta. Yeah, this is one thing I was thinking when you said, at the beginning of this podcast where you're like, we just don't. talk about or see birth and we don't really understand it. Placenta was one of those things where it's like no one says anything about the placenta. Like it's this unspoken thing. My husband was like, I don't even understand, like what is that? Like I had no idea, right? And so that was like a completely foreign thing to him. I remember the first time he was learning about it, was like, like I had no idea. Like you just don't think about those things. My placenta took two and a half hours and I didn't get contractions for it. So like very different from all of the things that I've kind of read or heard of like, yeah, the contractions that you get again and you know, the afterbirth and all that kind of stuff. Like mine was a very different experience. And yeah, like I let Jojo breast crawl and so he was on the breast. I knew that that was meant to like stimulate a bit of like contractions, get the placenta out. It never happened. I had blissful herbs like placenta release tincture. I do like gave me some of that, like started with a little bit, didn't work. I had a little bit more a little bit later, sat on the toilet for a bit, you know, tried squatting down. yeah. So I tried a lot of things. I was no pressure, but was just trying to get things along. and yeah, it just didn't really come. So then I was like starting to tug on it a little bit and just kind of every so often, maybe like every 30 minutes I'd like give it another go. Didn't seem to be ready. Yeah. And, wasn't sure like how much force to give it. Cause I was like, I don't want to like. you know, do anything that's going to be harmful. And so I was like, kind of just like, okay, I'll give it a little bit of like a pull and see if it's ready. And so then, yeah, had been like lying in bed with bubs for a little bit. And I was like, okay, like, probably time to try again for the placenta. And I was going to walk to the shower and just kind of like sweat in the shower, like rinse off, see if I could birth it there. And as I got up kind of like, no, as I got up, all this blood came out. And so then my doula was like, do you just want to squat and see if it'll come out? And then, kind of just did one like manual push. Cause again, no contraption. kind of did like a pushing feeling and a pull on the cord and then it came out. But I just think like you would not get two and a half hours in a hospital. Like no way. But I was not concerned. Like it was, it was not something concerning to me. I was just like, yeah, it's just taken its time. wow. And had you already cut the cord or did you keep the cord attached or? Yeah, we cut the cord. just after it went like white and yeah, Yeah. Just for ease of moving around. Yeah. After two and a half hours. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think in the pool, we were probably all in the pool together. I just kind of, you know, just riding the oxytocin high talking about the birth, you know, having a laugh. and then it wasn't anything that. I timed or anything like that. But at some point we're like, the bath is starting to get, the pool is starting to get a little bit cool. Like let's just start to get out. And so, yeah, then Cam cut the cord. My friend had crocheted us a little cord tie. So we did that and yeah. And so I'd been like, yeah, the cord had been cut for probably like an hour and a half. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And so Jojo's now three-ish months. He's four months. Four months. Four months. Yeah. And like, in this, you know, postpartum fourth trimester sort of period, like up until this point. Have you met other moms that have had free births or like home births now? do have a friend that lives in Queensland now and she just had her third baby as a free birth. Yeah, cool. And so, yeah, like I don't think I would have known that except that we were in a Facebook page together and I saw her comment once and I was like, my gosh, like are you planning to do a free birth as well? And so she's the only other person I know who's done a free birth. I think once you're in the circles, like I've definitely found more people that have done home births. But it's very interesting because so many people I share with that. I go and I always start on the more conservative side of being like, like I had a home birth. Yeah. Cause I mean, even with free birth, I don't tend to, I tend to say like an unassisted home birth. I don't know. And so usually I start with that. And then if someone's interested, they'll be, my gosh, you know, tell me more. And then I can kind of go into more of the details, but so many people say, I would love to do a home birth. And so yeah, it's just crazy to me. Cause I'm like in my world, it seems like surely we must be more than like the two, three percent. Yeah. But we're not because it's just so unsupported. But so many people express that like, I would love to do that. But I mean, it's hard. Like, yeah, it's hard because financially, it's not in your favour. Yeah. But I feel like, yeah, you kind of find the people that in a similar kind of world to you. yes, since I have met people who, yeah, who are more, yeah, in the the free birth, you home birth. Yeah, on that side of the spectrum. Yeah, it's more online. I don't know anyone in my local area. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And like, has your postpartum been like, like, do you feel good? Like, how do you feel? It's a mix. We had a really rough start with breastfeeding. So the first two months were so rough. But in saying that I've never done a postpartum before, so I feel like it still would have been rough, but we just had that added difficulty of breastfeeding, not being easy. know, something that I could only find out in hindsight. Cause I felt prepared for breastfeeding. Like we are part of Australian Breastfeeding Association. We did the workshop before. I have a friend at church who's a volunteer with them. And so, you know, I think on like day five, I'd invited her around being like, like I know that something is wrong. Like it's still quite painful and all these things, but pretty much just, yeah, like. horrible start to breastfeeding and that really impacted us to the point where I had to exclusively pump for weeks because my nipples were so damaged. I had mastitis, had abscesses drained, like I had all the things. But I mean, I had such a good pregnancy and birth, like both of those so good. Postpartum, other than the feeding, food was amazing. Our church did, like, I don't think we cooked a meal until I was seven weeks postpartum. our church did a meal change for us. I ordered some meals for Mumma's Meals. I was very much like, this is worth investing in because yeah, like I just can't believe how bad we are with postpartum. Even for me, where I feel like I prepared so much now that I've done it, I'm like, my gosh, I could have done so much more. Like you just figure out all the things that you're like, this could have made my life so much easier, but meals was a big one because I already don't like cooking. And so like, let alone when you're postpartum. Yeah. Yeah. And I had planned to do I'd heard about the five, five, five rules, like five days in the bed, on the bed, and then near the bed. And I was like, look, knowing me as a bit of a busy body, I don't know if I'll be able to do five, five, five, but I'll try for three, three, I was like, I'll try and do something. Or even just having the principle in your mind, I think, is just kind of good to be like, if you're going to make- to slow down. And when you're making a decision, like, do I really need to get up to wash the dishes or can I just wait around and just let someone else do that when they come over later? Those little things of like, you probably, if you were not- if it wasn't at the forefront of your mind and you weren't conscious about it, you'd do it. Yes. And so that was one of the great things about being home with mum, because we moved back in, like knowing that we're going to birth at home and wanting to have a stable home for that and not be waiting and all that kind of stuff. And then mum is a killer with washing dishes and doing laundry. So that was great, because that's like perfect for most part of. So she loves doing those things. Like even when we'd moved back, when we were fully capable of doing it, when I was just pregnant. She just does it because she loves doing it. So that was a real blessing that we didn't have to worry about those sorts of chores because especially after a home bath, there's lots of washing. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And we were like in bed at home, like it nudie for most of like the first couple of weeks. So yeah, we had all like, you know, meconium. Yeah. Milk and vomit. Yes. Milk everywhere. And I had oversupply for like because again, breastfeeding difficulties, pumping all that stuff. I've had like oversupply for the longest time. So it's like milk, stained sheets constantly for us. But yeah, so it's definitely a mix. It was hard, but I feel like once we got past those two months and we were getting better with the breastfeeding, I just felt, I felt so good. Like I think because it was so rough at the beginning that as soon as I could kind of get away from the house, because I wasn't tied to pumping every few hours, I was like, my gosh. This is great. Like I'm living again. Which I feel like even just for if you didn't have that like at two months is pretty good. Yeah. Like it's a rough time. So yes, highs and lows of that. I think the only thing that was really hard in that because I was so damaged from the breastfeeding. Like the thing that was so emotional for me was like those early days goes so quickly. And I'd like try to do so many things so that I could be with Bubs as much as possible. But I was in so much pain that like, couldn't even hold him on my chest. Like it was just those little things. So it's like, my gosh, like he was only so little for that long. And I think once I was starting to get better and able to do those things, I really kind of grieved to like how much I'd missed of that. Like that was, that was just part of it and it's fine. But I think it made me, you know, again, always with bad things that happen to us in life. can be like, well, they can make us appreciate things so much better than if we didn't have them. And we just kind of take it for granted and we go, I want to get out into normal life and blah, blah. And then, you know, your baby's two and you're like, why didn't I take that time slower? I think, you know, having that realization quite early on, I was like, yes, I'm going to hold you like as much as possible. And I'm going to do all these things rather than trying to rush back to normality. was like, no, I've missed those early days. And so I'm going to soak it all up. And so it was a blessing in that way. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I am so impressed. Like first time mom, free birth. You don't hear about that very often. like, yeah, like so many amazing, like little bits of like lesson in this episode. Do you have like anything else that you wanted to chat about or mention that we haven't already spoken about? I think just on that note of like being a first time mom choosing to free birth, I also had a few people who like had figured out that we were doing that in our pregnancy go, like I would love to home birth or I don't think anyone said I'd love to free birth but for the home birth they'd be like, I'd love to but like probably not for my first birth. Yeah. And I just think like, no, no, Like if that's where you're at, like, no, you don't need to practice round. You don't have to have given birth once before to home birth. Like if that's what you want to do, like do it the first time. Yeah, that would be my advice or at least look into it, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I don't think you'd regret it whatsoever. I just think when people like you know, when people are like, I want to do it, like do it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just say like, want to do it, but this, but that like make it work. Like if it's the cost, like say to everyone, like don't buy me baby gifts. Like we want to do a home birth. Like you should be having a private midwife. Like you can do things differently. Like we did so many things differently. We didn't do baby shower. We were like, don't get us baby gifts. If you want to bless us, like it'll be. meals, it'll be your postpartum care for me. Like that is what baby needs. Baby needs me to be good because you know, like you're their life source. Like that's all they need. And so yeah, even though it's hard and it feels awkward sometimes, I think because the stereotype is like people buy you onesies, people buy you these things that make them feel good because it's super cute baby stuff. Like if that's not what you want, like don't have the regret. Just say it, just communicate it. Yeah. And like your loved ones will get it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I 100 % agree. Thank you so, much, Monique. No worries. Thank you, Elsie.