Homebirth after a positive hospital birth, alpha-thalassemia, long placenta birth & impact of COVID restrictions || Joey's birth of Avery at home (Australian Capital Territory)

This is episode 53, and today we hear from Joey in Canberra. Joey is a physio and mum to two boys, Bellamy who she very almost had a homebirth with and Avery, who she did birth at home. 
Joey shares with us her journey with Bellamy and we reflect on why she chose homebirth, even having had what she describes as a positive hospital birth. We also chat about the impact of COVID on pregnancy, labour and her post partum, and the many things she learnt even as a physio, when researching physiological birth. 

Resources in this ep: 

• Birth Skills by Juju Sundin https://thememo.com.au/products/birth-skills?srsltid=AfmBOoqvWYN5vby3hUbgVLzxcnvNRHGFSmF9Nzn8OAI0_R1aOB04j7SP
• Cub Birth Stool https://www.cubmama.com/
• Peaut App https://www.peanut-app.io/

Chapters

• 2:49 Choosing Homebirth
• 6:07 Understanding Genetic Conditions and Pregnancy
• 17:53 The Impact of COVID on Pregnancy and Labor
• 26:06 Labor Experience with Bellamy
• 51:12 Reflections on Hospital Birth
• 1:05:00 Finding the Right Midwife
• 1:17:00 Involving Family in the Journey
• 1:41:00 The Birth of Avery
• 1:53:00 Reflections on Home Birth vs. Hospital Birth

Transcript

0:02

This is Birthing at Home, a podcast. I'm Elsie, your host. I'm a home birth mom of two little boys, a doula in Melbourne supporting birth at home. I'm a mental health nurse and the co-creator of Home Birth Victoria. If you want to learn more about me, the podcast or my work as a doula, check out www.birthingathome.com.au. Before we begin, I would like to acknowledge the Wurundjeri people who are the traditional custodians of the land I'm recording on in Nam, Melbourne, Australia. I would also like to acknowledge the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples have been birthing at home on country for tens of thousands of years prior to the British invasion and acknowledge that sovereignty has never been ceded. This is episode 53 and today we hear from Joey in Canberra. Joey is a physio and mum to two boys, Bellamy who she very almost had a home birth with and Avery who she did birth at home. Joey shares with us her journey with Bellamy and we reflect on why she chose home birth, even after having had what she describes as a positive hospital birth. We also chat about the impact of COVID on pregnancy, labor and her postpartum and the many things she learned even as a physio when researching physiological birth. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate or review it, especially on Apple or Spotify. I love reading your reviews, but it also really helps others find the podcast. Enjoy this first episode back after a very short break, everyone. Welcome, Joie, to Birthing at Home, a podcast. Hi. Thank you for being here on a Saturday morning. I know. Thank you so much for having me. I feel like we've been trying to get this... Coordinate, yeah. ages. Mom life, that's all right. Joie, can you give a bit of background to who you are, who's in your family, where you're located, that kind of thing? Yeah. So I'm Joey. in my family, I have my husband Tung. We have two little ones, our eldest, our three year old is Bellamy and our youngest is Avery. And then we also have a little, Moodle, Maltese poodle named Soba. Excellent. Yeah. beautiful family. Not that you're biased. And you're located in Canberra now. Yeah. Yeah. So living on a Ngunnawal country in Canberra. So Canberra is actually where I was born and raised. And then I got into uni in Melbourne. Yeah. And yeah, I was in Melbourne for 12 years and just recently about two years ago moved back to Canberra. Yep. Yep. So Bellamy was born in hospital in Melbourne. Yes. Yes. And Avery, you chose to have at home in Canberra. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. I suppose like reflecting on your experience, you know, pre-pregnancy or your understanding your birth imprint. kind of thing about like what birth and pregnancy should look and feel like, like, what was your experience with that? Did you know that home birth or like birthing at home was like a possibility or? Not so much with Bellamy. So we had him back in 2021. So I felt pregnant with him, I think, midway through 2020. And so my husband and I were both physios, and working in the hospital system where we're, at the time we were both working in hospitals and very comfortable in the hospital system. At that stage, we also, like a few years before even trying for Bellamy, we were like, let's get private health insurance and. If we want to have a baby, at least we get like the luxury. Yeah. I did quotation marks. The luxury of birthing in a private hospital. So like, I felt like that had sort of set us up in that way that we sort of almost just fell into the hospital system as like most people kind of would. And I had done like a unit of like pelvic floor physio and felt like just really comfortable in hospital. I like even prior to falling pregnant with Bellamy, I didn't really even consider any other options. I knew that they sort of existed, but didn't really look into them. But yeah, when we sort of fell pregnant with Bellamy even before then, Like I'm very type A personality and like, just wanted to research like the doctor that I wanted, because I just thought that this was the pathway and I thought I was being really, really prepared, which in a way I've like was like with, the knowledge that I had. So, know, I wanted a doctor that was sort of like how you say progressive. I wanted like a younger. doctor, ideally female who had been like quite progressive in her field that does a lot of teaching. Yeah. And all of that. And I came across a doctor in Melbourne and I sort of said to my husband, like, this was even before we were pregnant. was like, yeah. The doctor that I want. Wow. Like to look after us. So we Even before falling pregnant, I, went to the doctor because I was quite underweight at that time. and not like, I think just sort of due to like life stress and we just gotten married, come off our honeymoon. but I was quite underweight, like 45 kilos type thing. and my period had stopped. Yeah. Yeah. and that I had cut, like I had come off the pill as well. So like it sort of started and then stopped. It was really weird. I went to the doctor and I sort of said, my husband and I were sort of thinking about starting trying and my period hasn't sort of started again or it did, but I don't know that it really was. so I was like, can you run some bloods for me? So she actually did run a whole set of bloods for me and everything came back normal except for that she found I was a carrier of a genetic condition. So yeah, alpha thalassemia. it's like a non life threatening condition. But then she was like, well, if you are thinking of having a baby, we... should test your husband as well, because if he's also a carrier or if he has this condition, it can affect your baby. briefly, like what is, like I have heard of it before, but do, are you able to give us some brief? let's, let's look it up. So I actually did read a lot about this. Yeah, I believe you. believe you. A reduction in the amount of hemoglobin that prevents enough oxygen from reaching the body's tissues. Yeah. So essentially like it's your like ability to uptake and use the oxygen, right? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That you take in. So like I'm not a doctor. But She did say, she did say, look, some people have the condition and they don't even know for their lifetime. It's just like, she sort of said, it's unlikely that you'd be an Olympic athlete because you're, if you have the condition, because your muscles just can't take up that oxygen. your blood cells can't take up that oxygen. so. like getting really scientific, like if we think about like chromosomes, like you've got like four chromosomes. I'm a one gene deletion for carrier for alpha thalassemia. And actually when my husband's tests came back, he's a two gene deletion. if you like do your like biology and like carry it over. we had a one in four chance of a baby having that condition. a one in four chance of being a one gene dilation like me, one in four chance of being a two dilation like Tung, and then one in four of being a three gene dilation meaning that they had the condition. So when, when you've got this information, are you already thinking like, I definitely need a doctor involved in my care or? I felt really comfortable. we actually went through, genetic counseling through Monash health. Yeah. Yeah. And that was all like a public service, like a free service, which was really good. Our doctor referred us and then we got a genetic counseling appointment and I think we had one appointment and a follow up. And then we had another appointment once Bellamy was born because we had him tested as well. And it was really good. I felt really comfortable in the fact that like, even if our future baby had it, it was a really manageable condition that I wasn't like, it wasn't life threatening. it doesn't necessarily affect like quality quality of life so much. Yeah. maybe not an Olympic athlete. Yes. Maybe not an Olympic athlete. I have to like strike that off my dreams for my child. Sorry, but, but it was really good to know because if I happen to be a two gene deletion or if Tung happened to actually have it without knowing a four gene deletion means that that baby's not viable. you can't like the pregnancy would fail. Yeah. or the baby would pass away in utero, which was really, really scary to think about. like, guess if, if we had a different situation, we might have considered it differently, but I'm really glad we went through the blood testing to know all of that because like, as health professionals and I guess as anyone you really want to have like make that informed decision. Like, you know, we talk about so much about like informed consent. Yeah. That's exactly what it was. So I felt, I felt really like, looked after that whole process. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. so that was even before we fell pregnant. Yeah. Did you have like an awareness that Like you didn't have to have an obstetrician. Yeah, definitely. And I think like, I think I almost, we almost set that trap up for ourselves when, you know, a few years prior we purchased, you know, private health insurance and it sort of felt like a huge waste, I guess, if we didn't use it. Yeah. And like looking back on it now, I feel like we would have done things so differently. Hindsight though. Hindsight, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So when you became pregnant with Bellamy did like, so how does that happen? How do you actually book in with an obstetrician? Do you? Yeah. So I, we felt pregnant and like leading up to that, I, I like, I don't know if it's like undiagnosed ADHD, you know, one month in we hadn't fallen pregnant. was like, yeah, that's like fine. That's normal. Second month in I was like, what the fuck? Third month I was like, okay, I need to start seeing like, Chinese medicine, like we did like TCM every single week, month four. I was like to my husband, I was like, you need to go get your sperm tested. I just don't know like what it is. just don't know why I put myself under so much pressure. Yeah. And even like, my TCM doctor, she was so beautiful. She was so good. I can't remember. I think she was in Glen Waverly or Clayton. think she was in, she was near Monash hospital. and she was like, you just need to like, like calm the fuck down. And yeah, by month five, were pregnant. And I know, I know that's, that's so lucky. And I really like empathize for people who try for so long because I know the heartache that I felt just in those short months. I think about like how crazy I went. Like I actually went and got an internal ultrasound. Wow. As well, like, because I was like, what if I'm not ovulating? Yeah. Yeah. even though I was like peeing on the ovulation stick and I was, and it was just like, looking back, I just think to myself, like, what for? Like, why did, why did I, why did I do that to myself? Yeah. but it also like at the time it really did give me peace of mind that like everything was sort of, guess, normal. totally. so anyways, back to your question. going to, yeah, falling pregnant with Bellamy. I actually told my husband in the cutest way. So I like peed on a bunch of sticks and, like just our history. So our first date, we ate like three pizzas between the two of us. He proposed to me with pizza. cute. so I caught up like our local pizza shop in noble park where we were living and I was like, so I think I'm pregnant. And the guy on the phone was like, okay. And then I was like, can you make me. two pizzas, one that says mom and one that says dad. And he was like, congratulations. And he, my husband was working at, working that morning. It was a Saturday morning and he'd come home and I had the pizzas on the table and I was like, got us pizzas for lunch. And like, they were so sweet. made me us a little like love heart pizza too. So I put the pizzas on the table and I was like, yeah. look at them. And he sort of looked at them and he's like, they made them kind of weird. I was like, yeah, look at them. And then he was like, mom, dad. And he was like, did your parents buy us pizza? And I was like, what? And then I was like, and then he was sort of like moving it around and I'd sort of hidden the pregnancy tests underneath the pizzas. And then he like looked at it and he was like, fuck. that's awesome. that's so sweet that the pizza place like got on board with that. That's so cute. They were so sweet. So I had only ordered the two pizzas and they made us that like little love heart one for free. It like, it was very sweet. that's beautiful. So we went to our doctor and I said like, look, I already know the obstetrician that I want. Can you make me a referral to her? So that was all really easy, really simple. Yeah. So then we saw her and like the pregnancy was great. Like the obstetrician, she was really good. She, she's the one that actually, and this is where everything, my whole mindset turned around. So I think like growing up and like media and stuff, birth is never portrayed really nicely. And in a positive manner. like. you know, you get conditioned to like it being really scary. Yeah. And that was sort of what what I had envisioned birth was. Yeah. And my obstetrician, she was really, really great. And she actually said, you know, there's some really great like external birthing classes in Melbourne. And she sort of mentioned calm birth, hypno birth. Yeah. And so she was the one that sort of suggested that I look into those sort of options because she could see my anxiety around it. so then I went and booked in with, Gemma at Southeast Hypnobirthing. She's in. Okay. Cranburn. Yeah. Yeah. And we did her class and like, again, me being like wanting everything done so quickly. I think I was only like, less than 20 weeks pregnant. Yeah, really? that time when I did, everyone else is like 30 plus weeks pregnant. yeah. And like, I barely have a bump. Yeah. but we did her class and my gosh, it just changed my perspective completely. And I think what I really related to was, although I had done a placement as a student through, like doing pelvic floor physio. was sort of, it wasn't with some of it was like with postpartum women, like way down the line. so just having that physio physiology sort of explain more, you know, if you affix your pelvis by lying on your back, you like can't open. And I was like, as a physio, was like, fuck me that like. Obviously makes so much sense. well, so you've never really thought about it before. Wow. Yeah, yeah. Like, and it's it sounds true because like, I, I'm, I'm sorry, I'm not a pelvic floor physio. I'm not a musculoskeletal physio. My specialty is over 65. Yeah. And I do a lot of like, neuro and stuff as well. So like, just that sort of stuff was like, not in my wheelhouse. Yeah. Yeah. So I remember my husband and I leaving, you know, after like even the first session and we were like, this is so great. This is going to be easy. we feel so good. And my husband's like, I am so pumped for this. And it was after that, that he was like, you know what? I want to be the one that like helps you bring our baby. into the world. like, want the first hands to touch our baby be mine. Wow. so we were like, yeah, let's do that. And we were like, so pumped and like that sort of just carried on through the rest of our pregnancy. And we're just listening to like a bunch of like podcasts and reading a lot more. And like, we kept in touch with Jamar as well. And it was sort of at that point like 25, 30 ish weeks that we actually started talking about home birth. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So throughout your pregnancy, do you remember like how frequently you'd see your obstetrician or like the, how long you would see her for? We did see her fairly frequently. I think he was like every like every month. Okay. Yeah. I think. and like at the time I really liked being able to go in and she was one of the obstetricians. I don't think like all obstetricians have an ultrasound machine in their rooms, but she did. we to see Bellamy every time, which at the time I thought was really nice. And like, even now looking back, it was really nice, having experienced it, not experienced it so much with Avery. I felt just as much a connection with Avery as I did with Bellamy, like seeing him all the time versus not seeing him like, so it was interesting because I was like, I love being able to see him and see his little hands and stuff. And I really loved that. But Comparing it to Avery's pregnancy, which we'll chat about later, not having that did not take away from my pregnancy or my ability to connect with the baby growing inside me at all. Yeah. Yeah. Did you like decline any particular testing or any like extra scan, like things like that? I did end up doing the glucose intolerance test. Yeah. just because diabetes does run in my family. Yeah. But like, we didn't know if gestational diabetes did. Yeah. But because we had a strong history of diabetes in my family, I, and I sort of felt comfortable taking that, but I did decline the What's that one towards the end? The vaginal swab? The strep? The strep? Yeah, yeah. I did decline that in both pregnancies. Yeah. And like with obstetric care, like there was no real problem. It sounds like you chose, you'd like done your work and you'd chosen a good obstetrician. And she, she was really like, not lovely about it. Like she was, but like, mean, she was like, yes, that makes sense. Like if you don't want to do it, you don't want to do it. We just monitor the baby as you would monitor the baby. Yeah. Regardless. Yeah. And we were just talking about like, if you have it now, you might not have it by the time baby comes. Yeah. Yeah. We could like talk about that for ages. Yeah. So we felt really comfortable like declining that test. Yeah. And I'm trying to think if we did any other tests during pregnancy, we did have the option of doing like testing for Bellamy to see if he had alpha thalassemia. But that was sort of discussed during our genetic counseling appointment and the letter sent to our OB. And again, we felt really comfortable that we didn't need to sort of do anything like that because it wasn't anything that would make us reconsider the pregnancy anyway. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we were like, we'll just test him when he's born or not. Did you have, sorry, Bellamy was born in 2021. Did you have like any, like fears around, you know, going to have a hospital birth, like during that crazy, crazy period? So I had a really like, I wouldn't say like awful. pregnancy, but I struggled so much with anxiety. Like I'm quite an anxious person in general and like being pregnant at the height of COVID. I was pregnant. We fell pregnant in August of 2020. was working in the community doing home visits and in aged care homes. So we were you know, full on PPE, masks, gowns, hair, goggles. we would have to don and doff that between every client. I'd be so scared of like getting people sick, but like other people getting me sick. was awfully nauseous as well. I was vomiting like five times a day up until 20 odd weeks. So I would sort of like rip off all my PPE and run into the toilet to vomit and then come out and then have to put it all on again. Yeah. Yeah. so that was really, really hard. and not having any like family around. I think by November I was already, I think 15, 16 weeks. pregnant, my grandmother had passed away in Vietnam. yeah. And because of everything, my parents couldn't fly over there. I couldn't fly home to be with my dad either. And that was really hard and like to grieve my grandmother and not have my parents know that I was pregnant yet. Yeah. was really hard because I knew that Borders, we had a date that Borders were opening. think Borders opened in November. So we wanted to go to Canberra in person and tell them. Yeah. Yeah. but yeah, well maybe fast forward. Cause I like we've been chatting for ages already. okay. Time flies when we're podcasting. You can see how easily like people slip into like hours of story. So did you have like any signs of labor with Bellamy? No, so funnily enough, like I love my job and I was working up until the day I went into labor. But I did take the last week off clinical. work. the final week I was, because I was a team leader as well. So I was just doing a lot of like my last minute handovers and all of that in that last, in that last week. so the day I went into labor with Bellamy, I sort of woke up with like slight period cramps. Okay, I had nothing. How many weeks were you roughly? I was 39 on the dot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I was I was honestly so comfortable. I was ready to go to 42 weeks. Yeah. And that was something that I spoke to my obstetrician about. And she was like, Yeah, if you and the baby are looking good, let's go to 42 weeks and discuss it then. Yeah. So I was so comfortable. So I woke up with slight period cramps, but it honestly could have been like something bad at dinner. Like it was so, so mild. so I went to work, was like on the computer doing meetings and stuff. And then partway through the day, I got my husband to like, I like all of a sudden remembered. was like, you should put on your 10s like, so that your body gets used to it. And like, obviously as a physio, I've worn 10s machines and stuff before. So I knew what that would feel like, but I was like, let's just practice. not, I didn't even like the thought didn't even register that I might like, this might be the start of be actual labor. Yeah. Yeah. but I was just like, yeah, let's just put it on for a bit of fun. and I ended up wearing it through the whole, the rest of the day. Yeah. and at the end, sort of like, at the end, I was like, should I send this handover tomorrow? Cause this was Thursday and my last day was going to be Friday. I was like, the handover is already written. I'm just going to send it now. So I sent it, logged off at 4.30 took my dog to the vet. Of course. Why not? Yeah. And it was so funny on the way to the vet, my dad actually called and he was like, mom and I will drive to Melbourne tonight. It was actually during this was May 2021 now. So we were actually open for like two months. Yeah. Yeah. At that point. And dad was like, mom and I are going to drive to Melbourne this weekend so that we can like be there. And I was like, nah, dad, I'm like, so comfortable. Like, don't waste your leave and come now. Cause I could be another two weeks. And you're just going to be here living in our tiny town house with us. So I was like, no, no, no, no, don't come, don't come. And dad was like, okay. and we went to the vet and I still had my TENS machine on and we came home and like, I started doing like, you know, Juju Sundance book, all the horse breathing and the stamping and stuff. started having to like get up and stamp, stamp my feet. And this was during dinner and my husband sort of looked at me and he's like, are you in labor? And I was like, no, no, no, no. This is just noble. Yeah. I was like, I think this is Brass and Hicks. And he was like, okay. And it got to nine o'clock and then I turned to him and I was like, I hate the nursery. We have to go up and redo everything. And I made him like take these shelves off the wall, like, re put them on in a different spot and was like, refolding all this baby stuff. And every so often I'd like get off and I'll be like, stamping my feet. And he was like, I think you're in labor. And I was like getting so annoyed at him. And I was like, I'm not, let's go to sleep. Yeah. So we actually went to sleep. till now he'll tell you that like he did not sleep. So I went to sleep, but he was like, you were moaning. every like few minutes. So I sleeping through all my contractions and he downloaded, he ended up downloading a contraction timer. And he was like timing them. And then I sort of woke up at one point cause they were like starting to ramp up and Tung was like, the contraction timer says we should have gone to hospital already. And I was like, I feel fine. I think I'm in labor now, but it's really, really early. so this was around midnight, but then all of a sudden I was like, well, if I'm going to have my baby in the next like two days, I need to shower and wash my hair. course it is gross. So I got in the shower and then was washing my hair. And then I think like the contractions were quite bad at that time. So I, ended up being in the shower for like an hour and a half. Yeah. And then I came out and I was like, right, let's go back to sleep. We'll need our rest. And so when you have an obstetrician, are you meant to call them like when you're in like, how does that work? You call the hospital and then they notify your obstetrician. Okay. So that's what we did. So we called the hospital. And the midwives sort of heard me talk and they sort of just said, like, how are you feeling? I was like, I'm fine. I told him not to call you yet. we had a student midwife and a doula as well. And he was like, should we call them? And I was like, why are you so inconsiderate, Tong? It's 1 a.m. Don't. We'll call them in the morning. We'll have plenty of time. So then I was like, I'm going to sleep. I don't know what you're going to do, but I'm going to sleep. then, have you seen those cups? It's like a birthing ball, but it's not a birthing ball. It's like, it's a blow up thing. It's called a cub. yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, Let's Talk Birth in Townsville, they sponsored a month of the podcast. I'm pretty sure they sell them. I've seen them. Yeah. They're so good. They're actually so good. So our doula lent her. Let us go hers. So I was like, okay, I'm just going to sleep leaned over this cub. I'm going to sleep. if you're not going to sleep, you might as well squeeze my hips. Funnily enough, I did actually fall asleep again. Wow. That's impressive. So that's why I was like, no way am I like really far like progressed. But he was like, I hope your contractions are like a minute long. They're like a minute and a half apart. I think we need to go. And I was like, shut the fuck up. fell asleep. I need to rest. So I actually fell asleep again. I think I woke up like quite quickly. And then all of a sudden I was like, I need an epidural. That escalated quickly. Yeah. And I was like, he was like, okay, okay. And then all of a sudden he's like, our bags aren't in the car. They're not in the car. And I was like, what? And then, so he's running up and we can, mind you, we have a three story townhouse. that was also another, going back, this was also another reason why we didn't, because we, at one point we did. were seriously considering changing. Yeah, to home birth. Yeah, changing to home birth. But we really liked our obstetrician, we really liked the hospital. I actually did weekend work at the hospitals. Yeah. And my husband worked there full time. So we were really familiar with this hospital. Yeah. And our townhouses that we were all like just squished in. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Very thin walls. Yeah. So I just felt like I probably wouldn't be so comfortable. Yeah. Burthing at home in, yeah, in that space. Yeah. so anyways, Tung's like running up and down the stairs, chucking all our luggage in, in the car. And I was like, I need an epidural. and then all of a sudden, like he's, he's called, the midwives again, and then they didn't sound panicked, but then he had, because he had them on speaker, cause he was trying to like help me and like get me down the stairs. They were like, if you need to pull off on the side of the road and just call the ambulance. So I think they could tell by the way that I sounded that I was really, really close. And so from that time when they said, yeah, come come in now. Yeah. it took us 40 minutes to get out the door because at the top of the stairs, I stopped dropped and just started pushing. Wow. Like, you know, that involuntary, what's that reflex called? the ejection reflex. Yeah. Yeah. Fetal ejection reflex. What? so I stopped and then he was like, darling, are you pushing? And I was like, I don't know. Am I pushing? that fetal ejection reflex, that's crazy. Like there's no, you have no control over it. just like, your body just does it like with no active thought. So I was like, am I pushing? I think I am. I just, I think it's so funny how, how quickly it escalated. You're like, no, not in labor, not in labor. I want to know if it's truthful. my gosh. What the heck. it took us 40 minutes to get out of the car and we just got in the car and like, I couldn't even sit. So I actually ended up like putting my seatbelt on and like laying down in the car, like my feet up on the window. I'm sure. That's probably not legal. I've seen so many like pictures and videos of moms transferring and giving birth in cars and yeah, like the car is not where you want to be giving birth because it's not designed for comfort. And also a huge reason why we decided to send her home birth the second time. anyways, we got in the car and the midwives actually called and they're like, are you guys okay? Are you on your way? And was like, we're just gotten in the car. We'll be another 20 minutes. And thank goodness it was like 5am at that point because the roads were like still pretty quiet. we got there. Tune just parked in the emergency bay. The midwives were there waiting for me. I got into the wheelchair. I couldn't even sit in it. I ended up being on my hands and knees on the wheelchair and like the back of my physio mind, I was like, This is so dangerous. Like if I was an 80 year old person, would not like me as a physio would not be happy that they would do this. the whole time I was cause in the car with the midwives when they were on the phone, I was like, get the anesthesiologist in the room ready for me. Get everything prepped. We'll be there in 20 minutes. So I was in there. I was in the wheelchair. They were sort of wheeling me up. No internals. No. Yeah. And they're like, well, if you'd like the epidural, we'd just like to see how far you are along. Yeah. Just so that we can call the anesthesiologist. And I was like, okay, hurry up. Yeah. So like I quickly flipped onto my back. Yeah. And they're like, your baby's head is here. my gosh, Joey, like, it all makes sense now. You were hardly even in the hospital. then literally I was like, give me something, give me gas. Yeah. And they were like, okay, you can have gas. And I think I sucked on it for like two minutes. Yeah. but I actually, think I ended up really liking it. I didn't think he was on. I was like, have you turned it on? Turn it up, turn it up. Yeah. but it did sort of. made my ears ring in a nice way. Like I couldn't, like it sort of blocked out all their voices, all the noise. And I was able to, it actually did sort of bring me back down to earth, which is weird. Like it sort of made me go loopy, but it did help me calm down. Which I feel like isn't the case for a lot of people. I think like at the, at the time I didn't think it was working, but it did. like relax me. Yeah. so at this point, like is, did the, was the obstetrician there or? Everyone missed it. This is yeah. Holy moly. What the heck? Yeah. So, and this was when I felt so proud of my husband because, the midwives started like coaching me to push and I actually, I actually heard my husband at that point, like just really gently go to them. you know, we have a lot of belief in her body. You don't need to say anything to her. Wow. Just, just encourage her. she like her body will do Yeah. And I remember like thinking at that time, I was like, I love you so much. that's so beautiful. Yeah. And then I do remember him saying, but like, I do want like to help. Like, to be born, So if you can help me guide my hands for that. they were really lovely about it. They helped him do that. But yeah, I remember like pushing and I remember, do you know what, how, you know, how people talk about the ring of fire. Yeah. It was, that pushing stage was so, so good for me. it's. Yeah, I, I, so you're the 52nd, no, you'll be the 53rd. I'm going to. that you'll be a part of like the second season. I'm going to pause releasing for a little bit. you know, over 52 episodes of Birth Stories, like that, it just amazes me that some women just don't have like either don't experience the Ring of Fire, don't like experience it in the intensity that other women like I remember feeling it and being like, I am going to spontaneously combust like I, the intensity, the pain of this is like so horrible. but then yeah, like, yeah, you hear stories where they're like, no, didn't even, didn't even feel it. I felt like a stretching and I could, like, I remember getting a bit like frustrated because his head was going in and out. And like, know that that's a good. thing. Yeah, to stretch and like prevent tearing. But I just remember like feeling so annoyed. And I was like, why is his head so fucking big? Just come out already. So but yeah, at that point, by the time I got to pushing, I don't remember feeling any pain. The pain just stopped. That's amazing. But like the the like, the effort that it took to push from those contractions. was still there. like, I guess, like, because you're putting in so much effort, it's almost like painful. Like, it's so much exertion. I remember feeling such relief when his head came out. Yeah. But then all the contractions just stopped. Wow. They stopped completely. And he actually started crying. what was he still inside? was still inside and I could hear him crying and I was like, this is fucking weird. What? That is so, my gosh. I could hear him crying and then at that point I was just like, so, because at, up to this point I had not been actively thinking I need to push now push. Yeah. It was just my body the entire time, me going with the flow. But when I heard his cry, it almost took me out of it. I was almost really aware of like everything. then that's after a while, like, I don't know how long it was, but he was like crying and I remember hearing him crying and I was like, okay, is he out? then I remember hearing the midwives going, You need to push the rest of him out. And they're going, I'm not getting any contractions. Like just thinking to myself, not getting any contractions. And at that point I was sort of, I was kind of over, I don't know if I was over it or like, I was like, I can hear him crying. Maybe he's uncomfortable being half out. So I was like, I'm just going to push him out. So I just like pushed and he went, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Out into my husband's arms. I should say at this point, like after they sort of said that my baby's like, they felt me and said that my baby's head was there. I flipped right back onto my hands and knees and was on like an, an awkward. four point kneel kind of thing. my knees were on the bed and my arms were at the top of the bed. So he came out that way. then I did have to then, I remember him being born, my husband, I knew that my husband was holding him. I was like, I don't know what to do now. I'm so tired. So the midwives physically helped me turn around. And I remember that being like a really awkward movement because I sort of have to, you sort of have to bring your leg over the baby. you're on the bed so like, don't want to like fall off either. Exactly. Exactly. So I remember them helping me sort of turn over and then Tung put the baby onto my chest and it was just amazing. And then I what did sort of bring me out of it was I actually saw the huge centosan needle. Yeah. Be brought over and I saw that and I was like, no. Is that something that you had like previously, like had somebody talked that through with you before? Yeah, yeah. So I like we did a lot of reading on like all the, all the potential like drugs and the potential side effects. And I didn't go into it thinking I wanted like, I did go into it thinking I wanted a drug free labor, but I was very open to whatever I needed to, to protect, guess, my piece. like what I felt was like my sanity at that time. but like, I was like, I've already done all of this. without anything. now you want to give me like, some toast and I was like, no way. body can clearly do this. Yeah. Yeah. So, I remember going, no. And then my husband turning around, seeing it. And then he was like, we don't, we don't need that. Let's monitor and see how she goes. and then they were like, okay, that's fine. They didn't, they never like fought us on anything. Wow, that's pretty incredible. But it sounds like you guys had really like empowered yourselves with all of the knowledge and all the possibility, you know, possible options and things that you could decline and like the reasoning behind why they want to do certain things. yeah, that is that does sound like a positive experience, but I think it's very funny because so much of it was at home. Like, how long were you actually in the hospital for? That's why I say like positive hospital birth. Like, so, so we parked the car at five four AM and Bellamy was born at five 21. What the heck? Yeah. my gosh. That's so funny as well because like, yeah, you're paying all of the private health. I think seven K for like. half an hour, you know, or whatever. Yeah, less than half an hour. And like they charged me for the gas as well. Did they really? my gosh, how much does gas cost? I don't remember, but I remember getting the bill and I was like, this is fucking crazy. That's so dumb. my gosh. And so then you, so you've had this experience and then how old was Bellamy when you decided to move back to Canberra? He was close to one, going back. Yeah, yeah, of course. That's right. So I actually tore that first time, a second degree tear. And then I sort of went, like, what about not giving me stitches? And the obstetrician sort of looked at it and was like, it's significant enough that like, it's going to probably impact your quality of life. It looks, it's going to be quite painful if you don't get stitches. so that I would say like, was quite like, not traumatizing, but it was like an awful experience. Like, obviously they numbed me. and then I'd like sucked on the gas a bit then, but it was really like, unenjoyable. And I almost think like, I don't know, but I almost think that like, if I didn't, if I just waited for the next contraction to push the rest of his body out, would I have, or like, maybe it was just because I was like so upright and like gravity helped you come like who, who knows? Yeah. Anyway, so we decided to move to Canberra, back to Canberra, after a year. between that, had a May was when he was born and Melbourne closed again a week after. don't know if you remember, it was shut down really, really. strictly. that was when we had the kilometer radius. 2021. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. so my poor in-laws had flown in from Perth. Perth closed their borders to their own residence, which is like a huge F'ed up thing. Yeah. Yeah. Anyways, they were stuck in Melbourne for nine months and probably five or six of those months, they couldn't even see us and couldn't support us because they couldn't leave the five kilometer radius. So I really feel for them and my father-in-law, bless his heart, like broke the rules a little bit to like come and drop off some food at the door and drive back to South Yarra for us because they were like, we're in Melbourne, like we're away from like our family, like the grandparents and stuff and they're stuck here. Perth won't even let us back in. horrible, such a horrible time. I think I've actually blocked out so much. Yeah, it was just horrible. And that's when we sort of decided that we needed to move closer to family. So we're just looking, it took us that time to find a house and everything. Yeah. So then we moved back to Canberra and Feel pregnant with Avery, I believe when Bellamy was 14, 15 months old. And we'd been in Canberra for about three months. And I've like post Bellamy's birth, like all, you know, in that, you know, a year and a half or so, or 14 months or whatever. Did you start to think, maybe home birth is like the route that we take or like, how did that? like change. Yeah. So my husband and I left the hospital saying we're gonna home birth the next Yeah, amazing. Yeah. Yeah. So like, our obstetrician as amazing as she was, We didn't need her. was going to say she wasn't even there. Yeah, she wasn't there. She was actually in Sydney. was actually in Sydney. my gosh. That's just wild. Wild. did come and see us the day after. But yeah, we were like, we were like, we can do this. like growing up and like just as a person, like I never thought of myself as like very physically strong. Yeah. And I've never felt stronger as a person than after I gave birth both times. felt so strong. And my husband was like, for the three months following both births, my pain tolerance was just like so much better. Cause he like gives me massages and I'm always complaining that he's going too hard. Yeah, he was like, your paint is so good. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. It went away. Yeah. That's so fascinating. Wow. I wonder if there's like research on that. Yeah. I don't know if you're just like riding high on all your hormones for like the longest time. Yeah. Afterwards as well. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I had there that just the whole almost the whole postpartum with Bellamy was really lonely. Yeah. So isolating. Yeah. Did it have the Zoom mother's group, which is like, ridiculous. I understand. Yeah. I do understand trying to put something in place, but yeah, I didn't even engage with my when I had Murphy in April 2020. Yeah, I think maybe the first one was meant to be in person, but by the time it rolled around, they were like, no, we're not having it. And then they didn't happen. And then then they were like, let's do Zoom. And I was like, I am not interested in Zoom mother's groups. Like, yeah. was so lonely that I just like grabbed onto everything. Did you ever use that peanut app? Like the Tinder for moms app? Yeah, I did. I did, but I never met anyone from there. that's so funny. I am still friends with actually one of the moms from my Zoom mother's wow, cool. Yeah. Yeah, which is really nice. Yeah. But. Yeah, it wasn't great, but like I do understand like, you know, we have to do something. Yeah. It was something. Yeah. Which is what I'd say about it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so going back to Canberra, you know, already thinking like, when we have another baby, it's going to be a home birth. Did you know what like the home birth scene was like in Canberra or had you researched it like you've with obstetrician? Yeah. So, I did research when I fell pregnant and at that point, I was already thinking, I probably just, just thinking about the money that we spent, like going private the first time. And I can understand if I had like a few more things going on, like medically, perhaps it would have been more worth it. Like, you never, you never sort of know. But I just, I, yeah, I wish I knew that like, that's like seven grand. I don't want to say it was wasted because our doctor was so good. And like the, the few days that we did have in hospital with Bellamy, that was, was actually quite nice. Yeah. because the ward was so quiet. Yeah. Had all the food and everything. so that was quite nice, but it wasn't worth like seven plus grand. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I did, consider like this time, like we talked about engaging a private midwife and we have some amazing ones in Canberra. Some really amazing ones. but I did want to try and get in. the public home birth system program. So that's actually exactly what I did. As soon as I found out that I was pregnant, I went to my GP. And again, I heavily researched GPs and found a GP obstetrician that again seemed very progressive. I actually did tell her, and I know I actually have like heard of a lot of people giving advice that like, don't tell your GP that you're planning on home birthing. like is really poor on the GP's behalf. Like women shouldn't have to be hiding their intent when going to your medical, going to your health provider. I, as a physio at like as a health professional, I would feel awful that my client, my patient doesn't trust me enough as their health provider and as a person and think that I would judge them and criticize them about a decision that they make with their own body. find that really disgusting. believe that like part of, so I think For my first home birth, I didn't have to get a GP referral because the midwives that I used had like a relationship. It wasn't a part of the publicly funded home birth programs, but they had a relationship with a hospital. And then the second time I just, yeah, I just said I want a private midwife and I didn't even mention home birth. But from what I understand is that because at the moment until November, you do need a referral generally for private midwifery care, that the insurance provider for GPs has allegedly or like there is an understanding amongst GPs who haven't looked into it for themselves, that if something happens in the birth at home, then because the GP has referred them to a service that that, you know, that insurance that that becomes their liability. So I believe it's not, it's like, just perpetuates the, you know, the stigma around home birth, but it's awful. It's just the system itself is yeah. And like, but also like in saying that, like, that's why you have insurance. Yeah. Yeah. But like, but it's such, it is such a negative way to think about it. But I actually, I've had trust in my GP that, and that This is what I wanted to do. And I said, I want to be referred to the continuity program. And I, and I was like, what do you think of me? Home birthing. And she sort of said, you're really healthy. had a really great birth, and birth. I don't see any reason why you shouldn't home birth. so it wasn't like she was like cheering me on, but she also like felt. confident to say like, you know, I do support you in this and I'll write a referral saying that this is what you want to do and you want to go through it publicly. But yeah, was, that was knowing that I needed to like, then be really on the front foot with like the public system. I actually called them from when I was like four weeks pregnant, called them. straight away before I even saw my doctor, they were like, get us a doctor's referral. And then as soon as the doctor's referral went through, I called them again. And I was like, this is what I want. Check your emails, check your fax. Yeah. Yeah. Essentially. that was, that whole process was easy because I knew the steps that had to be taken. Like, If I didn't have the knowledge to request certain things, like get on, you know, the continuity program early, I would have missed out on all of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so what, because I've heard varying things about the publicly funded home birth programs. Like when, when did you first meet like a midwife? Yeah. In that program. your first midwife appointment is very much like an intake appointment. Okay. where they talked to, like they do your like initial like OBS and stuff. And then they talked to you about the public system avenues that you could sort of go down. Yeah. And I was like, I want to have it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Straight from there. so she was like, okay, let me put you in that program. Yeah. And I met my initial midwife. I think what's the first appointment like 16 weeks or something. Yeah. After that, like, so after that first initial appointment, the first one where the midwife actually came out to our home to discuss home birth and everything. Yeah. Okay. Cool. I think around 16 ish weeks. Yeah. Yeah. and this part was actually like caused me a lot of stress at this point in my pregnancy because I did not connect with that first midlife. Yeah, right. Yeah. And I consider myself like a person that like can talk to a lot of people that like I generally get along with like most people and like I just didn't. I didn't feel any like warmth or connection to this midwife at all. I actually like when she, and like, honestly, like clinically as a midwife, like nothing wrong. couldn't fault her on any of that. Like I don't want to like shit on. Like she, but like, I just think like, if I'm going to home birth, like I really need to protect this space around me and the people that I bring into this space. and I was feeling really down after that first appointment and you know, like I'm quite extroverted and like, but I say I'm an extroverted introvert cause then I get really tired after. I get so excited talking to people and then I get home and I'm like, yeah. Yeah. But I did think, okay, afterwards, because my husband and I sort of said the same thing and he was like, not that did she feel off. can't, I can't remember what his actual question was to me, but like, he was like, do you remember her? like smiling at our jokes or like laughing or anything. I was like, no, she didn't. Wow. Yeah. What the heck? Yeah. And like part of me is like, as a midwife, like you should be like really warm and stuff. And like, I didn't ever get the vibe that she was out of love of midwifery or anything at all. think it was literally just her personality. so I sort of said, okay, maybe she's one of those people that just takes a little while to warm up to people. And like, was like, that's okay. That's fine. So I was like, let's do another appointment with her. Let's wait till our next appointment. so we did that and we did the next appointment. And again, everything like clinically felt fine, but it just, it almost felt. I actually felt more like I was seeing a cold obstetrician in like, you know, their rooms rather than, you know, someone like loving coming out to my In your house. Yeah. Yeah. And again, I don't want to like, like, I really don't want to like be like, this person, like, because I've actually talked to people. I've talked to women that have had her as their midwife and they loved her. Yeah. Yeah. And they loved her like demeanor and everything. Like the demeanor was the same. Like it wasn't just that was the way she behaved with myself and my husband. It was the same demeanor, but that's what they wanted and that's what they needed. Yeah. Yeah. but I actually like felt a lot of like turmoil, with that. And after that I actually like, you know, cried after the appointment because I was like, don't feel comfortable with her. And my husband, and I was like, I don't know what to do. Like, do we have to go find a private midwife now? And my husband's like, if you want to, can. And he's like, let's just call the hospital. Let's just see if we can request another midwife. You know, like you don't know until you ask. he's like, And if we can't, let's, let's, let's pay for a private midwife. It's worth it. so like, felt really supported by him that way. So I was like, okay, I will. so I ended up calling the hospital. and like, obviously that takes a long time to get through to the right person as well. But I did, I did end up eventually getting a hold of the right person. And she said, look, I'll see what I can do." And then she called me back like two days later and said, yeah, I've got you to another midwife. And I just really said to her, I was like, like, I want to feedback that this person, like, there was nothing wrong with her care at all. this is not even a complaint that I'm putting in. I'm just putting in a request due to a personality difference. And she was like, No, I understand that. That's fine. So she was really good. And she put me with another midwife and like, I had an appointment with her like a couple weeks after that. And yeah, just the difference I immediately felt like so comfortable with her. I think it goes back to that that energy as well, right? Like You don't really think so much and especially as like a health professional, like we don't, like you, like at least, you know, the patients or consumers that I see as a nurse, like I don't really get to really choose. kind of just like have to suck it up and like get along and force the rapport. You you chip away at it. like pregnancy is a time. constrained thing. It doesn't last forever. It's like a short, and you know, if your first appointment is at 16 weeks, you know, you're like a third of the way through essentially. already like met my obstetrician two or three times, you know, with Bellamy by then. there's such an intimate thing that they're going to be a part of. And if, if the energy like between you isn't like, what you feel is going to be the right energy, then yeah, it totally makes sense. But like, I think, yeah, there's not really many other experiences in day to day life where that and like, we actually have to consciously think about that energy because we're so used to just forcing interaction. Yeah. Especially as health professionals. Yeah. And it was so good because going back as well, we actually did end up doing a Hypno-Birthing Australia refresh session with one of the girls that runs it here in Canberra, Sarah from Rhythmic Birth. Sarah, so interestingly, she's an RN paramedic and is studying midwifery. Well, I was like, do you want to be my student midwife? Yeah. And she was like, yes, that would be amazing. And normally what Canberra uni does is when you apply for a student midwife, they randomly allocate. Okay. Yeah. But you can, if you know someone you can request. Yeah. So that's exactly what I did. We did, we did a refresher. We really got along well. Yeah. And then, yeah, she joined us for all of our appointments, which was amazing. It's really good. That's so special. then like their continuity that like that provides through the education and then like through also being a part of your journey. That's really cool. Yeah. And it was going to be, you know, she was going to be there for the home birth, you know, not many student midwives get to experience that either. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's like, I reckon that all paramedics should like have to like attend a home birth at some point in their studies to like really understand because they're like primed for emergency and yes, but like when a woman calls for an ambulance in labor, it's not usually an emergency. It's just like there's no other way really to get to the hospital and get help. And the thing is she was so positive and she's like, she had actually attended home births as a paramedic, but not the whole thing as a student. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I felt really comfortable with her as well. Yeah. So it was just like the rest, the rest of my pregnancy was just, it was so good. Like, preparing my little one for it, Bellamy at that point. We really did want to prepare him well, I guess you could say for it. Like, we started watching home birth videos on YouTube. We would hold hands and be like, look, she's, she's laboring. She's, you know, she has to work so hard to get the baby out. Isn't she so strong? And Bellamy would be like, strong. cute. And you know, every morning he would come and like rub belly oil into my belly and he'd kiss my belly and say, baby. we would read home birth books. But like in the videos we would cheer when the baby came out and like clap. So I felt like we were doing everything we could for him. I think from about like 37 weeks, we actually did almost dry runs. as in, we would play a game called babies coming. that's so cool. and like we would, I like, would walk around the house and like, felt really like stupid at the time, I was just like, okay, I would like walk around the house and sort of like groan and like, like almost like, like show pain, like wincing. And then we'd say like, mommy, like when baby comes, mommy's gonna like look like she needs to do a really big poo. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And he thought that was really funny. Yeah. So we would like make those noises, like mainly me, but I'd make those noises just to prepare him. Yeah. Yeah. Flash forward. He still got scared anyway. what did, because your like family was so much closer, like did they have any commentary about choosing to birth at home? They were really not really against it. They were really scared. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Really worried. Even though like you'd basically, you could have had a home birth first time so easily. Yeah. Yeah. They were really worried. and like it's, it's so interesting. I thought it was really strange that they were. worried because mum had two hospital births but like completely unassisted as well. like mum telling me her stories about like her births with both my sister and I, like she was like, it was so straightforward. Dad missed both of them because like, because they were like, he just, the timing was really, he shouldn't have left the room to be honest. But he did, but she was like, yeah, they're really like, don't worry about, don't worry about it. Don't overthink it. She was like, I just went in and did it. Yeah. But still, yeah, like that sense that hospital is the safe place. It's going to look after you. And I always said to them, I sort of said, I'll labor at home until I feel like if I... until I feel like I need to go into hospital. That's what I ended up saying to them in the end. like every so every couple of weeks, I'll sort of be like, so you still planning on doing it at home, especially when the birth pool arrived and we inflated it and had it in. It was actually this room. Yeah. And I was just like, yeah, we'll see. I'll I'll I'll bear that. Like, and in the end, like, it's really hard as well, because they English is their second language, but they're very fluent. But like, it's really hard to then speak scientific sort of terms because I wanted to present the facts to them. was like, you know, outcomes are actually better for baby and mom. If you're birthing at home, in terms of like breastfeeding and risk of infection and all of this and I think they just got caught in that fear mindset, but honestly, it didn't affect me at all. didn't, it didn't like, it just sort of really, anything, it annoyed me. But other than that, I was just kind of like, they're scared. They can be scared. They're worried. They can be worried. But I did try and explain it in like sort of more layman's terms, but I said, look, it's actually safer for me. I was like, do you remember I almost had Bellamy in the like, on the like top of the stairs. Yeah. Or like in the car, like, yeah, rather be he be in the car or in the like safety and comfort of like our house. Yeah. Like I was like, look, mom, dad, two midwives and my student midwife, who's also an RN and a paramedic. Yeah. Are going to be here. I like took them. I started taking them through every step. I was like, look at all this stuff. Another thing is I think two weeks, I think when I was about 36, 37 weeks, I had one appointment in the hospital where I would go in the hospital and get my home birth kit. Well, yeah. Yeah. So I don't know if you've seen them, but it's like, they're pretty like they're these massive tubs of like all this equipment. so you have to go pick that up. Yeah. Wow. Okay. Now in my, in my experience with, both times, I think like at the last appointment or the suspected last appointment or one of the final appointments at like, yeah, like 37, 38 weeks or something. the midwife yet brings, at least in my experience has brought that stuff like usually like the oxygen and like the, sentocin on to put in the fridge and things like that. but yeah, my gosh. no. So I don't know if this is just the ACT system or if it's like the ACT public system. We went in to get it. the, I can't remember if the midwife fought them. the stuff that needed to be refrigerated on our last appointment and put it in the fridge for us. then the oxygen got delivered by the oxygen company. got that. That's so official. Yeah. Yeah. It was so funny. They're just like, we're here to drop off the oxygen. it there. Yeah. And I was saying, you know, they actually put two Ambo's on standby. Wow. Do they actually? Yeah. they put, so when you go into labor, your midwife calls the local station and says, put two on standby, one for you and one for the baby. Once you have the baby and like you deliver your placenta and everything and everything's all good, the midwives then call them again and say, you can take them off standby. Whoa. my gosh. What a system. don't know. if that happens here in Melbourne. Wow. Yeah. That's so interesting. I actually, felt, I felt really like safe. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you have like all of that support just for you. You know, the attention is not divided because like, know, like two ambulances, one for you and one for the baby. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But like in a hospital, you know, a midwife is going to be allocated to look after. you know, I don't know whatever the ratio is, but like however many laboring women, that's why they can't really provide, you know, one to one support your whole labor and birth because they're also looking after somebody else. But in this situation, like it's it's all for you. But that's brilliant. And that's what I was sort of explaining to my parents as well. Yeah. And they were just sort of like, grumble, grumble. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's hard to change, like when you have like such a solid idea about something like it's, yeah, I mean, change is hard, but yeah, changing your mind and like seeing things from a different perspective. It's difficult. think about like two generations ago, probably like here in Australia, it probably more like three generations ago where people were birthing at home more. But like my parents being born in Vietnam, they were all home births. Yeah. Both my parents are one of eight kids. They were all home births. Yeah. Yeah. Holy moly. Wow. like I was saying to them, like, you're the only ones that birthed us. Yeah. Yeah. Like, so I think they were sort of like, they were, they were listening. Yeah. Which is all I could ask. Totally. Yeah. And like, I never, I never was one of, like, I never had in my mind, I must have my parents on board. Yeah. I need my parents on board because I felt really strong. Like, because I had Tung, like, and everyone else, I felt really like at peace with that. Really happy with that. And I wanted, I didn't want to be away from Bellamy. Yeah, of course. like any amount of time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think leading up to Avery's birth, I just always thought my second was going to come earlier than my first. Cause so you were 39 with Bellamy. Yeah. 39 on the dot. So was like, I'm going to have Avery at 38. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And my mom had both my sister and I at 38 weeks. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. so, but I also was really trying not to like, I actually, couldn't tell you what my estimated due date was. Yeah. Didn't care about that. Yeah. barely I did like sort of kept track of like how many weeks I was could you sort of do for your midwives? Sure. Yeah. But I was really at peace like knowing that he'd come when he was ready. But in my head, it's so funny because on the flip side, I was like, he'll be ready at 38. Yeah. So then I was telling my midwife, my midwife was like, I have a specialist appointment for my daughter this one day. Yeah. Just this one day. And it's in Sydney. Yeah. Just this one day. And I was like, don't worry. Avery's going to come in the next two days. Yeah. Yeah. with Avery, I was so, so sore. The pregnancy was so different. I was so sore. I was never, I had zero body aches with Bellamy. Yeah. But with Avery, my hips felt like they were going to dislocate. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. My back was so sore. so I actually finished work quite a lot earlier. I think I finished work at 36 weeks with Avery. Yeah. And also because I wanted to spend that last few weeks with Bellamy. so I was like, don't worry. And then he just didn't come and I was like, why is it not happening? I again, didn't get any sort of lead up to the labor as well. No Braxton Hicks, no Saunas. So the morning that I woke up with Avery, everything was normal again. took Bellamy over to my parents' house because I needed to run some errands that day. And around nine o'clock, I started to feel period pain. And I was like, it's happening, it's happening today. And my husband was like, should I, should I not do, not go to work? I was like, no, no, no, go to work. And I put on my tens machine straight away. And I was like, tongue call, call out. So because we were having a home birth, I messaged a few of like my local businesses here in Canberra. And there's this lady that does a grazing, a really great grazing. And another person who was doing Bellamy's birthday cake. So I was like, I messaged them a couple of weeks before labor and I was like, So I'm due to give birth and I really want to eat this stuff during my labor. That's so If I tell you, if I tell you the date I'm in labor, if I get told to contact you, would you be able to like whip up something for me and deliver it to us? And they were amazing. They were so good. So I got a grazing board delivered. That is excellent. I'm just like snacking on my salami. That's so good. my God. That's an excellent idea. It's so good. And I was like, my gosh, if I was in hospital, like this would have been so much harder. Yeah. Like I probably could have done it if I really wanted to, but Tung would have had to leave and go down to the lobby. And carry it all up. That's so funny. This time they like, they just dropped it off at my door. Wow. It was so good. So I'm just like snacking and eating my crackers. Yeah. The quince paste. All this stuff. So good. And I remember like the contractions sort of starting to ramp up like towards the end of like, end of the workday around four. And Tung's finished up work and he's eating, helping himself to the grazing box as well. He looks over at me and I was like in the middle of a contraction. Once that contraction was done, he was like, I don't know about you, but I'm having a great time. He's like, it's so good having a birth at home. And then he's like, all I need to worry about is, filling up that birth pool. I was like, we'll get it ready then. And then at the same time, he was like, so should I call the midwife? Nah, not yet. So yeah, things really ramped up. I actually then told my parents that I was in labor because they had Bellamy. I just, at that point, I didn't have it in me to like make him dinner. Sure, of course. Yeah. And I needed Tung. Like Tung could have made him dinner, bathed him and everything, but I needed Tung. Yeah. So I said, can you guys please give him dinner, and have him sleep at your house. and just, was sort of my decision at that moment. they gave him dinner and then my mom called around six or seven and she was like, and at this point he's never spent a night away from us in the almost two years. so mom called and she was like, he really misses you. Like he looks really, really sad. Can I bring him, but I'm going to stay. And I was like, yeah. And at that point I was really missing him too. like both Tung and I were feeling a lot of like sadness and a bit of guilt that like we were like having him away from us. So mum actually brought him over. They live less than five minutes away. And I was like giving him cuddles, but those contractions were really intense. And like, I did think that we had prepared him enough, but I think he wasn't even two. Yeah. that point. they were sort of starting to scare him. Okay. Yeah. He was starting to get like quite upset. Yeah. And like, didn't want me to hold him. So like that was like sort of hurting my feelings as well. So, I was just like to mom, can you, and he had already like had a bath at my parents house. He was already in his PJs. So was like, can you just bring him into his room and put him down? And I think he was already tired at that point too. So like, I wonder if it might've been different if it was during the day. But she took him into his room and like, put him to bed and she just slept in his room with him. and. Yeah, we were just out here laboring. I think the midwives and my student midwife came at about 10 PM. at that point, I think back on it now because I was a lot more physically active during my labor with Bellamy. I was in so many different positions, but I don't know if it was like the pain in my hips or like what it was, but I just. or like just feeling a little bit sad that Bellamy was so upset, but I just couldn't like, I couldn't get off the bed. I was just sort of laboring on the bed and I'll sort of roll around and get on my hands and feet. I mean, hands and knees, which I really liked with Bellamy, but like that position was really painful for me for some reason the second time. So I ended up side lying, gripping my birth comb, tense machine on high. And then I would also just be pushing on Tung like every time a contraction came, I try and breathe through it, but I would just like stiffen up. I'd like my hands and feet would go straight and I just need to push against him. I remember like, I could feel his body getting tired. Cause like I'm pushing against his feet and his hands. And I'm like, Be stronger. Yeah. and all this time he was sort of like whispering, like my affirmations to me, which felt really good. and the midwives came and they were like, they were so good. They sort of just sat like in the corner. They like sort of whisper words of encouragement, like going, you're doing really well. and I'd be like, can I get in the water yet? And they're like, let's just wait a little while. Yeah. In my head, was like, fucking hell. Yeah. Yeah. and my dog was like cuddling me. He could tell like something was happening. He would go off at the midwives when they came, but, then he'd like come over and like cuddle me. It was just really, really nice. And then, at some point, like I think he was 1130 at this point. They were like, Joey, I think it's time to get in the water. And I was like, fuck yes. Yeah. like stripped, took my undies off, took my robe off. they helped me into the water and that relief was like instant. Yeah. Absolutely instant relief, but it also like my contractions stopped altogether. I was sort of brought back down to earth. I like sort of was looking around and like, My birth photographer was there and I was like, when she get here. was so beautiful. She was quiet and respectful. Like I honestly didn't even notice that she was there already taking photos. but yeah, my contractions just stopped altogether. So I was just sort of sitting in the water and like the pain had sort of stopped. So now I was just like, What am I going to do now? was like, they're just like, just relax. Like they'll start back up. And then I sort of got into my head again and I was like, I don't think this baby's coming. I think this is false labor. Yeah. Yeah. I brought you all here for no reason. Yeah. And then I sort of started to get really like annoyed at that point because I was like, no contractions were coming. I was like, have yeah, like this is crazy. Like is, is this actually happening now? but Tong says that that point was literally just like a less than 10 minute period. Yeah. But like that just feels like forever when you've been laboring like this whole time, like really intense to the point where like the midwives are like, okay, yeah, you're ready. Let's get into the pool. Yeah. You know, when you think it's all about to happen. that felt like, you know, forever. it wasn't, it wasn't false labor. and then I had, I remember having a really big contraction and then I heard this like pop. that's when my waters broke and I could see it. Like it was completely, it was clear, but you Almost the force of it, I could see it in the water, like the water like ballooned. Wow. And me going, whoa, that's the first, I didn't have that with Bellamy. I don't know when my waters broke with Bellamy. I never experienced that like pop and gush of water. And that's when I really felt like it's on. It's on. was intense. It was intense. And then I sort of like got on my hands and knees in the water again. And like, I have a picture of my dog like peering up above the vertical. I actually think he was trying to throw his ball in there. But if you look at it, it looks like him watching over me. Yeah. like, again, like got to the pushing and it was so like... beautiful, like, cause it was, I can, I'm not like a calm, peaceful, quiet birther. That was not me. I was like screaming obscenities. I remember at one point, like, Tung stopped like, saying nice things. Like he, like, instead of my affirmations, he was getting really tired and he was like, just breathe. Every time his attraction came. Just breathe." And I was like, stop fucking telling me to breathe. I know I need to breathe. Shut the fuck up. So good. I was just like, I remember being so angry at him. Yeah. Yeah. so then I remember being on my hands and knees. I didn't want Tung to get in little water with me cause I just wanted the space myself, but he was holding me over the pool. Yeah. and like giving me drinks and stuff. I actually threw up a couple of times too, which I didn't do with Bellamy's birth. I threw up like two or three times. And then, yeah, got to pushing and it was just like really, I felt really calm with pushing and that felt really easy. And I felt his head come out and they're like, do you want to see your baby's head? And I was like, no. I was just like, I just want to get this And like, don't, I honestly, like I try to picture how I would have looked at his head. Cause I was like this on my hands and knees. So I sort of would have had to move off the wall of the pool and sort of like done that. And they had a mirror for me and everything. I wasn't interested. and then This time I did wait for another contraction. and then I pushed and the rest of his body came out. and then at this point I re- this is not, not like my one regret or anything, but I remember feeling like a twinge of annoyance, which is kind of sad, but, the midwife. My midwife missed it. I went into labor the one day that she was in Sydney. So I had two completely different midwives. my gosh. the heck, Joey? Well. So I did have my student midwife, but because student midwives aren't allowed to practice during home births. like, honestly, my normal midwife, She was like, I feel comfortable you doing stuff. like my student midwife doing stuff with her supervision because she had sort of supervised her appointments and everything. these two midwives were completely new to me. you'd never met them before? I never met either of them. Wow. my gosh. I would have been freaking never met either of them. Wow. Honestly, like as long as I had Tung. Yeah. It didn't really bother me too much. was like kind of disappointing. but like, yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't too big a deal. I didn't rely on my midwife because like having a really supportive and knowledgeable and confident partner. Yeah. I almost didn't need it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And also that's also why I didn't hire a Dula the second time round. Our Dula missed Bellamy's Bell as well. Yeah. Having her postpartum was really good. She couldn't do visits because of the lockdowns, but she did drop us off a lot of food. Yeah. Yeah. But it made me feel confident enough that we didn't need a Dula the second time round, though, like everyone, I would recommend a Dula. to everyone. Yeah. Well, I think like it sounds like Tung is like amazing and could be a doula himself. Yeah. but certainly not all, yeah. Partnerships are the, the same in like, yeah, like, like even, even if it was like, having someone, even if the partner was like Tung, having someone to relieve your partner as well. like Tung Like he was saying like he didn't go to the toilet. Yeah. Yeah. The whole time. Yeah. Well, at birth that I was at recently, she had a really amazing support team, including myself. And she also had a friend that was a student midwife and another friend and actually thank thankfully, like in my opinion she did because her partner, woke up the morning that she went into labor with a like really, really sick. And so he like was, yeah, like he'd come in and like sort of like support as much as he could, but like he just, he looked unwell, like you and then he'd have to go away and like rest and he had like a headache and just, was yet not well. So I actually ended up really lucky that she did had pre-planned to have so much support. because yet the Yeah. Stars just did not align for him to play that major role. But yeah. Yeah. It was like, even after baby was born, he was like, this is great and all, but I feel awful and I have to go and lay down and you don't want to like get the baby sick or like, yeah. Yeah. You're then that he was like, my God, is it COVID? Like, do I have a COVID? And like, you've just got a newborn and yeah. but Yeah, Yeah. And again, I had to do that awkward... Yeah, flip....leg over. And like, they had put the towels in the microwave and covered him in the towels. And it was just amazing. It was so beautiful. And I looked at him and I was really scared that like... I don't know. I was really scared that I wouldn't connect with him straight away for some reason. because that wasn't the case for Bellamy, but that was just a really big worry for some reason. like, I looked at his little face and he looked like this wrinkly like little monkey. And I was just like, my God, you're so cute. You're so tiny. Bellamy was a lot bigger when he was born, almost like 800 grams bigger than Avery was. Bellamy was like 3.8. Yeah. Avery was just over three. Yeah. So like, maybe that's why the birth was a lot easier. Maybe that's why I didn't tear the second time around. Maybe it's because I was in water. How many weeks actually were you with Avery? I was 39 and four. OK, so Avery was a little bit older. Yeah. But yeah, OK, still a bit smaller. Still. Yeah, almost a kilo smaller. Yeah, crazy, right? He is now huge. He's almost the same weight as his brother. So there's like a kilo and a half difference between the two of them. Yeah. And so did you have a physiological third stage again? So yeah, interestingly, I didn't. Okay. Yep. So again, they had the Syntosun there and they knew that I didn't want it. And like, this was sort of something that I had to sign as a part. of being the public, birth program that I would accept it after an hour. the placenta didn't come. And I was like, the placenta came very quickly the second time. first time with Bellamy. didn't have to stand up or anything. They did perform very gentle traction on it the first time. not to any pain or anything, I was really mindful of that. And they didn't have to do any like, massage or anything like that. I just remember it's like slipping out. Yeah, very quickly. So I was like, No, I feel really confident that This second time's going to be very similar. So I did have to sign something to say that I would accept it after an hour. that's crazy because like, what if you like, say you sign it and then it gets to an hour at home and you say, no, actually I don't want it. What are they actually going to do? Yeah, exactly. Call the police? Exactly. So I, it got to an hour and a half. And I was like, maybe I'll. do a little walk to the toilet and sit on the toilet for a bit and see. like, I like, just remember this being so awkward, but I'm like carrying it with like the midwives, like holding the Kylie sort of underneath me to like stop blood going on the floor. And I sat on the toilet for a little while and I sort of got up from the toilet and I was sort of just trying to stamp my feet a bit to like get that like gravity. And it was already an hour and a half at that point. and honestly, they were just monitoring me. They never pressured me or anything. they were like, you're looking good. You're not bleeding. I was feeling fine. was like eating again, getting Avery to the boob. they, they were like, keep him on the boob. Like to get those contractions. I was using, the blissful herb tinctures as well. So I was using the placenta one. Yeah. So I was like, I was almost like drinking that out of the bottle. Hurry up! So I was like, I was like had a swig of it out of the bottle, mixed it with some orange juice, was drinking it. Then Tung was making me these like orange juice placenta for these like cocktail things. So I was like drinking them, having Avery on the voob and it got to two hours. It got to over two hours and I was like, I'm sick of this. Like, like hanging out of me. The, cord was already like white at that point. So I did want to wait for the cord to be white and like, doesn't take very long to go. Yeah. And I was like, kept standing up and sitting down, trying to get into different positions. they were doing like, they were. giving a bit of traction on it. And it was actually so painful. actually had to like cry for them to stop a couple of times. so at two hours, I was just like, I, not that I had given up or anything, but it's kind of over it. I was like, know what? just want to, and at no point did they threaten me with hospital or anything like that. They were just like, we do have to monitor. it got to, it was like 3 a.m. I was just like, I just want to go to bed. Yeah. I want to have a sh- yeah. So I was just like, okay, give me the injection. it really hurt. Yeah. It really stung. And like, I was sort of mourned it a little bit because I know that like my body did it the first time, but it did it in like less than 20 minutes after my first birth, the first time. And it was over two hours. I was. really tired at that point. I also like wanted to send the midwives home as well. Not, like they're, they're on call. They were, you know, they were there until I needed them. part of me was like, I want you to go home and rest, but like, I also want you to leave so that I can go to sleep as well. anyways, I got it and it still didn't come. my gosh. Because I was like, OK, like I was asking them a lot of questions this time because I'd never received it before. Yeah. So I was like, OK, so when I get it, how quickly should it come? And they're like in less than 15 minutes. 15, 20 minutes. We waited another hour. Whoa. my gosh. And it didn't come. Wow. And I think at that point they were starting to get a bit concerned. Yeah. because they work, kept from like doing that gentle sort of traction and it would hurt so much that I would scream to stop. then they were like, we'll have to stop. so they were like, it still seems like really firmly implanted on there. to the point where I started sort of like giving myself like massages around that abdomen kind of area. And it got to another hour and a half after I got the Sintosun. So by this time it was three and a half hours. the placenta still hadn't come. So like I was starting to get like annoyed. I think I could tell that they were starting to get concerned just because of the time, not because I was bleeding or anything. I was still feeling well. So then they did a little bit more traction and then I think it was at like close to four hours. Well, finally came. Whoa. That's crazy though, because I wonder why the... That's weird. Did they have like any theories as to why, why the Sintosanon didn't like work so effectively? Yeah. Yeah. They don't know because like it's the first time my body's ever had it. So, so it's interesting cause like, don't know, you don't know how your body's going to, I don't know if it's because like, is it because I already had so much natural oxytocin? Yeah. like the artificial sin, Tosin didn't like do much. remember getting like the after birth pain that I thought would like, expel it, but nothing. Yeah, it was really weird. Wow. But then the ball center came and all was well. Yes, all was well. And here is Avery. Bye Avery. Bye baby. For the finale. He needs, he needs a bit of food. So my husband's going to put him down. That's all right. Well, thank you so much for sharing those two stories. Like, yeah, I mean, no wonder you chose home birth. Would you choose home birth again? a million times. And like I do say, I say to people, I had like a positive hospital and home birth, but like it's not even comparable. Yeah. Like you said, like my hospital birth was pretty much close to a birth except for the birthing part Yeah, last half hour. Yeah, exactly. You can almost call that like a partial home birth really. Yeah. But even like my husband, like even Tung, he's like, he would choose home birth over and over. It was really nice afterwards, like in the morning. Bellamy came in and snuggled with all of us and he he like loved Avery straight away and was giving him lots of kisses. There was like a period of like intense jealousy. Yeah. Okay. For like for two or three weeks where he'd get really upset seeing Avery on the boob. Yeah. Like Avery being carried, he'll be like, put down the baby. Like, can the baby go away? Yeah. Send the baby back. Bellamy. Yeah. It's tough. It is really hard for them. I feel really sad for them. Yeah. they're so close. They're 23 months apart. Yeah. And they love each other so much. Yeah. Really excited to... Every... He's not even drinking. He's really excited to have Avery sleep in the same room as him. that's so cute. Yeah, like it's just that initial transition period. It's a big change.