Jess's experience with the cascade of interventions with the hospital birth of Matilda (2020), choosing freebirth with Edith (2022) and the planned freebirth turned hospital birth of Angus (2024) + GDM & 2-vessel umbilical cord || Northern Territory

In episode 51, Jess from the Northern Territory shares the births of Matilda (hospital), Edith (freebirth) and Angus (freebirth > hospital transfer). 

After years of trying, Jess finally became pregnant through IVF with her 1st baby Matilda, and gave birth in 2020 with little insight into the medicalisation of birth. For her second baby, Edith however, she chose to birth at home, however was unable to access homebirth midwifery care where she lives in the Northern Territory, and so had little other options, other than to freebirth. Empowered by this experience, for her third baby Angus, she chose to lean deeper into that experience and have an anxiety free wild pregnancy and planned to have another freebirth. 

Whilst we talk about all 3 births in this episode, it is worth highlighting in this intro that  during her labour with Angus, she felt that something wasn’t quite right, and so made the decision to transfer to hospital for medical support. Whilst Jess has and will continue to work through the common emotions that this decision evokes, I hope sharing this story with you today, the listener, demonstrates how amazing jess is - how she trusted and listened to her body and in the end, she listened to her intuition and sought help to birth all 4.9kg of baby Angus. 

Connect with me, Elsie, the host :)

www.birthingathome.com.au

@birthingathome_apodcast

birthingathome.apodcast@gmail.com

Links to resources: 

• IVF associated with higher rates of Gestional Diabetes Diagnosis https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9852144/
• The Cascade of Interventions on The Great Birth Rebellion  https://www.melaniethemidwife.com/podcasts/the-great-birth-rebellion/episodes/2148575903
• "Single umbilical artery is when one artery in the umbilical cord is missing. It happens in about 1 in 100 singleton pregnancies (1 percent) and about 5 in 100 multiple pregnancies (5 percent). " 

Transcript

0:02

Hi everyone, welcome to Birthing at Home, a podcast. I'm Elsie, your host. I'm a home birth mom of two little boys. I'm a mental health nurse, the co -creator of Home Birth Victoria, and I'm a Melbourne based doler. If you want to learn more about me, the podcast, or my work, check out www .birthingathome.com .au. And before we begin today, I would like to acknowledge the Wurundjeri people who are the traditional custodians of the land I'm recording on in Nam. Melbourne, Australia. I would also like to acknowledge the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people have been birthing at home on country for tens of thousands of years prior to the British invasion and acknowledge that sovereignty has never been ceded. Episode 51 is shared by Jess from the Northern Territory. This is also the first birth at home transfer story. Jess and I connected late last year while she was pregnant with her third baby. After years of trying, Jess finally became pregnant through IVF with her first baby Matilda and gave birth in 2020 with little insight into the medicalization of birth. For her second baby, Edith, however, she chose to birth at home. However, she wasn't able to access home birth midwifery care where she lives in the Northern Territory and so had little other options other than to free birth. Empowered by this experience for her third baby Angus, she chose to lean deeper into that experience and have an anxiety -free wild pregnancy and plan to have another free birth. Whilst we talk about all three births in this episode, it's worth highlighting in this little intro that during her labor with Angus, she felt that something wasn't quite right and so made the decision to transfer to hospital for medical support. Whilst Jess has and will continue to work through the common emotions that this decision evokes. I hope sharing this story with you today, the listener demonstrates how amazing Jess is, how she trusted and listened to her body. And in the end, she listened to her intuition and sought help to birth all 4 .9 kilos of baby Angus. We have a lot of great chats in this episode. including the brilliance of doula care, accessing home birth, gestational diabetes and addressing fears. Enjoy. Welcome Jess to Birthing at Home, a podcast. Hi, how are you? I'm good. Thank you so much for joining me today. Finally, like I said before we began, we were talking in like December last year, so December 2023. So now it's August. So that's pretty exciting to finally get to chat. Do you want to give a bit of background to who you are, who's in your family, where you're located, that kind of thing? Yeah, sure. So I'm Jess. I live in Darwin, Northern Territory with my husband, Tom, and our three kids, Matilda, Edith and Angus. Yeah, amazing. And so Matilda was born in hospital. She was, yeah. So she was our first hospital birth. And then I had a home birth with Edith and I was aiming for another home birth with Angus, but we ended up needing to transfer into hospital for him. Yeah. Amazing. So I guess maybe so Matilda was born in 2020, you said before. Yeah. Yeah. So prior to 2020, and obviously she was born in hospital, I mean, also taking into account like the context, like where you live, like, are you from Darwin? Yeah. Yeah, cool. What's like, what was your like understanding of birth or home birth or free birth or any of that before Matilda? Yeah, so home birth and free birth were not on my radar at all. A lot of my friends and family gave birth before me. So my experience with birth was really very hospital based as you know, the only option. And unfortunately, like the story goes, a lot of traumatic births, a lot of interventions and, you know, birth stories that made people feel a bit yucky afterwards. yeah, I think it was kind of just like the accepted like we had a yucky birth, but that was normal. Everybody had a yucky birth. Yeah, kind of went into it with that understanding and Yeah, So you didn't yeah, like basically you went to the GP or whatever, and they gave you the spiel and you were like, okay, here we go. Yeah, so Matilda was an IVF baby, we tried for a couple years to conceive and then went down the IVF route with her. were fortunate enough to get pregnant the first go. And So was very medicalized from the very beginning. Everything was structured and as IBF goes. And then once we got pregnant, they kind of just said, here's the hospital, carry on your antenatal with them. that was the only option we were presented with. Yeah. And like now, because I was talking to somebody else who had had a... home birth in the Northern Territory the other day. And I actually haven't checked my stats since that conversation. But now obviously post Angus and Edith, is there like a big home birth community in Darwin? Yeah, there is quite I mean, big for Darwin, I guess, yeah, the population that we have. But there is, yeah, a good community, the home birth group. And we have a private home birth midwife in the Northern Territory now. So yeah. Yeah, I think it's getting a bit of traction. yeah. Yeah. So but prior to Matilda, it wasn't even, yeah, something you thought of. Do you think, do you think like... didn't know they had a home birth program. Yeah, well. When it in for birth, was never presented as an option with Matilda. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what was your pregnancy like with Matilda after finally, after all this time, you're like, yay, I'm pregnant. Yeah, it was pretty normal, I think. I got morning sickness. I wouldn't say really bad. It felt bad at the time, but I think talking with other people, there's definitely worse cases than what I had. But that was a bit of a downer having to spew daily for weeks on end. I got diagnosed with gestational diabetes at the 28 week test. I didn't know any difference. So I just went along, you know, with it. I did the education. I pricked myself four times a day for weeks on end doing the blood tests. Then, yeah, I had to see the doctors a bit more because of the gestational diabetes. So I had, you know, the extra scans that people get when you've got diabetes compared to the normal ones. I had at one of my scans they picked up that I had a two vessel cord. So with my umbilical cord, the doctor very casually threw that into conversation in one of our appointments as I was about to walk out the door with no context to it. So I went on a Google rampage when I walked out and you know, I would into all those sort of possibilities. Yeah. Because I was seeing the doctor, I actually somehow managed to slip off the midwife's appointment. So I was only seeing the doctor somehow. And I remember saying to the doctor at one of my appointments when I was like in my third trimester, I asked him something about expressing colostrum and he kind of looked at me like, talk to your midwife about that, not me. And I was like, well, when do I see a midwife? And they were kind of shocked that They thought I'd been seeing midwives all along, I was only seeing the About 30 something weeks, I finally started seeing the midwives properly and got to ask all of those questions. yeah, kind of got told about, you know, different pain relief options and things like that. But it wasn't really too much information. And to be honest, didn't do much researching myself. I was just you know, in their hands and went along with everything they said and suggested. don't know what you don't know. So you just kind of go along. And I guess, yeah, if this is the route that at least 98 % of women are taking, like you, I mean, you could be forgiven for trusting that they would know their stuff, right? And that they're going to be providing all of the information that you need to know. Right, yeah. Yeah. So throughout the pregnancy with Matilda, did you do like any like hospital kind of education or any other like additional? Yeah, did the hospital birthing course that they did. I think it was like a full day or half day thing and they go in and they teach you about what pain relief options there are and they show you the like the maternity ward and things like that and where to go and all that. But was real, yeah, it wasn't very informative. was, yeah. Yeah, I've not heard great things about any hospital education program. And so what was your labor and birth experience like with Matilda? Yeah, so I I knew all along that I didn't want to be induced with Matilda, even though I had the gestational diabetes and they kept doing the big baby talks with me. I knew that I just wanted her to come when she came. I kind of went my whole pregnancy with that. At my forty and three appointment, they sat me down and talked about booking induction. And I was like, no, no, I don't. don't want induction. just want to keep going. And they were like, yeah, that's fine. Just letting you know that with your diabetes, the risk of stillbirth, you know, grows exponentially once you hit 41 weeks. And I was there was the first time they'd said that at all to me. And I was like, wait, what? Stillbirth is very relevant in our family. Like we my beautiful cousin had a stillbirth before I was pregnant. So it was it's like a real real thing for us. And so I framed them course and was like, book me in for an induction, like what are we doing? And then they said, we can get you in in five days time, which is when I was 41 weeks. I was like, you've just told like, I've just heard in my head that, you know, my baby is potentially going to die in five days. Yeah, if I have it, but you can't get me in for five days to have my baby. So, you know, start freaking so book the induction and off we went. At the day before my scheduled induction, I woke up and had some reduced movements and started to get quite worried with everything that had been on my mind and went into the hospital. As soon as I got into hospital, they put me on the CTG and she started bouncing around happy as Larry as they do. But we were there and they said they had a, they could start the induction then. So we just went with that. Do you remember like, like, cause there's a couple of ways that I guess they can do the induction, suppose. Like what did you receive? Yeah. So I got the gels first of all. And I think after about six hours of the gels, they checked me and there was still no dilation, but I was cramping quite, yeah, quite hard, I guess. Yeah. And they said they wouldn't give me a second dose of the gels that they'd move me on to the catheter. Yeah. The balloon catheter. I got that at 1 a in the hospital. My husband wasn't there. It was, I think, than childbirth. Like it was horrendous. was so painful. Yeah. And you know, middle of the night, you're alone. was, yeah, it was, wasn't. not nice at all. They said it would hurt a little. Was this something to do with COVID or just like just just it happened that he wasn't there? Well, he wasn't allowed to be there until I was in labor. Yeah. So he was there with me in the afternoon when I got the gels and then visiting hours ended at like seven, eight o 'clock or whatever it is. He went home. Yeah, I was on my own. If I started actually being in active labor at any point I would have called him back in but he wasn't allowed to come back until I was in my room. my god that's outrageous what the heck? my he went home and yeah so 1am I got the catheter and then they gave me a sleeping pill and a panadol and told me to get some rest and I was like yeah right it was like I was cramping quite hard at that point and you know. in reasonable amount of pain, wanted my husband there. I think I messaged him at like 3 a and was like, soon as you get this, come in. Like, I'm not in labor, labor, but just don't worry about what they say and come in, I need you here. And then, yeah, think he got in, I don't know what time, wasn't early enough, my liking. I think it was about 9 a He got there and they moved us over to the birthing suite at about lunchtime. I think not long after that, nothing was really happening except a lot of cramps. So then they broke my waters. To be honest, that whole birth is quite a blur. I don't know if I've blacked it out, but I don't remember all too much of the time. I do remember at one point, I think I asked for an exam to see how dilated I was at that point. And they did that and they said I was only about four or five centimeters still and it had been like a really long time by that point and I was in a fair bit of pain. So then I asked for an epidural. So I got the epidural, it didn't work. I didn't even know that they came back and did it a second time. Like that's how kind of... out of it. They came back and did it a second time. It didn't work. And I think not long after that, they told me to start pushing and I was pushing and pushing and pushing and it felt like they just kept saying, you know, one more push and you know, it just never ended. It was still, you one more push and nothing, one more push, three more pushes. Yeah, nothing. then At some point the doctors came in and said Matilda's was starting to go into a bit of distress on the CTG and that kind of you know put me into a bit more distress and and then they said you know I had to go to theater to have a forceps removal and once that happened it just went from like what I already thought was a hundred to like a thousand. Yeah. know doctors and staff come into the hospital into the room and there's just so much going on and you've got no idea Nobody really talked Tom through any of it. Yeah Yeah ended up in theater. I finally got a spinal block once I was down there and then my things started to calm down a bit once I had that pain relief finally and Yeah, forceps Forcibly removal, they gave me an episiotomy and she was born. Wow. Yeah, it wasn't very pleasant for any of us. No. I was very distressed with how it went. Yeah. But, know, at that, you know, not knowing what I know now, not having the education that I have now, we were very grateful at that time for them getting her out safely. Yeah. For those people listening, we've got baby Angus also joining us as well. Those are all the baby noises. Holy moly. yeah. What the heck? And so like, when did you when do you think that you started to actually reflect on Matilda's birth and be like, OK, maybe it shouldn't have been like that. Or could have been different or something like that. Not for, I don't think really until I was pregnant with Edith and I started doing a lot of other researching and things with and along with that I was just like, is just, I could see, I didn't know anything about the cascade of interventions, you know, before Edith's pregnancy. And then I was like, that's exactly what happened to me. You know, they gave me that fear talk about stillbirth and then I was booking an induction and then, you know, next thing I'm getting an epidural and next thing I'm in theatre and it was just textbook. Yeah. was your postpartum like with Matilda? I, well, the very first few days I ended up getting the post -dural headaches. no. So I ended up back in hospital when Matilda was three days old to get that procedure done. another needle to the spine to fix the hole that they'd put in it. That procedure worked within minutes of me getting it. So I'm very grateful for that one because I couldn't even stand. The headaches were so bad. Obviously not ideal with a fresh little baby. yeah, then I And you know, the postpartum after that was fine. Like I think I processed it quite well at that point because that was quite normal, you know, with everybody else's birth stories that I'd heard. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And so then you get pregnant with Edith and that's when you start to kind of reflect and think about how like, how did you find about how... my gosh, how did you find out about Home Birthbed? So I got pregnant with Edith when Matilda was nine months old, so it was quite fast and it was natural, not IVF. Yeah, wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so that was in 2021 that I got pregnant and COVID, you know, everything that was happening with COVID. Darwin was a little bit behind the rest of Australia with, you know, all the lockdowns and things like that. So it was just starting to come a bit more. prevalent with us. But yeah, did the went to the first antenatal appointment as normal and, you know, they were pushing the COVID vaccine on everybody at that point. And I was a bit like, I'm not sure about this when I'm pregnant, like, not not feeling very comfortable with it. but they were so forceful about getting that vaccine and then in the back breath telling me it's safe but don't eat cheese because cheese isn't safe. So true. I'm like what? And then, you know, there was a lot of talk about the hospital policies changing and, you know, who was going to be allowed to come to the hospital and being unvaccinated added like a whole other layer of So true. Yeah, yeah, Whether my husband would be allowed in at all. So that's when I was just like, I'm just going to start looking into birthing at home, like, and doing it myself because I'm not birthing without Tom there. Yeah. So I might as well, you know, be prepared on how to give birth myself. And then as I started, you know, researching that, I found out about the home birth program at RDH, at our hospital. And I started just, it just started making more more sense, like all the stats that I was reading and, you know, everybody's stories that I was hearing, I was like, this, Like, why aren't more people doing this? This is weird. Like, everything's leaning towards this being better for women. So why isn't it spoken about more? But yes, I was just, I was still traveling with the antenatal system in the hospital, but I was very much internally preparing myself that if they pulled the pin at the last minute and said, Tom wasn't allowed to be there, that I would just do it at home like all these other people on the internet seem to be doing. So at this point, you'd never really met anybody knowingly that had had a home birth. Yeah. Yeah. Very much. The first that I knew or had heard of in our immediate and extended circles. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, so I got a referral to the home birth team in Darwin and I was accepted onto that team. And then I got diagnosed with gestational diabetes again, and the policy is that you can't home birth. So, but by this point, was kind of like starting, like I'd done so much more research on gestational diabetes and I thought, well, this is a bit of a crock of shit in my circumstances. was, none of my sugars with Matilda's birth or with Edith's pregnancy were over. It was just that fasting test. you know, in the one that they diagnose you. So I didn't do the testing after the first few weeks with Edith. I stopped breaking myself. I was like, I'm just going to continue on with my normal diet and go from there. the home birth team said I couldn't home birth. They said I'd still be allowed to birth in the birth center though, rather than in the hospital. So, okay. Okay. That's not too bad. They are. you know, slightly more aligned with our values and things like that. Yeah. But I didn't know at that point, they're still very heavily bound by the policy. I did request a meeting with the head doctor of the Home Birth Team to try and plead my case. And I gave her all my research and I gave her my first few weeks of, you know, sugar testing and tried to get like, you know, some sort of exemption, like, you know, it's meant to be individualized care. yeah, keyword meant to be. Yeah. So she quickly shut me down and sent me sent me packing and she also said at that appointment that if I went past 40 weeks, I wouldn't be allowed a birth in the birth center either. So do happen to remember like, you know, when you're pleading your case, like what her sort of rebuttal response was? It was just that's what it was. I had gestational diabetes and the policy said I couldn't home birth. I remember she was saying that I was going to have a big baby again and I was kind of saying like Matilda was 4 .3 kilos. So she was quite large. said, is she going to be bigger than that? I didn't know it was a she at that point. The baby going to be bigger than that. And they were like, no, it seems to be tracking smaller than your first pregnancy. And I was like, you know, is there any other risks that I am unaware of? And they were like, no, it's just, it's just policy. Like you can't. And I was just like, well, righty -o then. And off I went. And I think it was at that appointment that I, that's when I decided that I wasn't going to be birthing in hospital, regardless of the COVID policies or not. I, I had, I did get a doula before that. can't remember. how far along my pregnancy was, but there was a doula in Darwin who I joined up with. And yeah, was starting to feel really confident that home birth was a better option anyway. I was starting to feel really confident with all the research that I'd done that I'd be able to do it myself at home. And at that point I was still kind of like traveling with the antenatal system at the hospital. I knew that I could. change my mind and you know, go in with them if I chickened out or something along the way. So when you're starting to like bring up this talk about home birth and stuff like that, did you say your partner's called Tom? Yeah. What was Tom's thoughts? Do you remember? He was like, what? What? Yeah. mean? But It was you know, in the COVID time, and he was very much starting to question the medical system itself anyway. Yeah, he kind of left me to do a lot of the research on home birth and everything. And he trusted my judgment on it, that it was going to be okay, and that it was going to be a safe option for us. But yeah, nobody, we kept it pretty quiet to start with that I was even that we were considering it. I didn't, you know, I'd heard a few stories about some of the fear of other people starting to cloud people's judgment. So we kept it very in -house to start with. We only told a few very select people who I knew wouldn't pass too much judgment. And yeah, then as the pregnancy went on and we got closer to crunch time, we started to tell a few more people. And we had to have some pretty hard conversations with people because a lot of people weren't open to it. We're very scared for us. just wasn't a thing that they were used to. yeah, there was lot of anxiety, I guess, about our choices. Wow. Wow. Even though like the hospital Yeah, because I guess like down here in Victoria, at least in the sort of well, mean, Geelong has it as well now, but like we have the publicly funded home birth programs popping up. And I guess we're hopeful that that will like convince people because we'll be like, like the hospital's offering it though. Like they wouldn't offer it if it wasn't safe. Of course, the hospital home birth programs and private midwifery care is like extraordinarily different. But yeah, wow. Wow. Did you, so you accepted the gestational diabetes test in your second pregnancy. Did you do anything else different? Three times in my second pregnancy. So when I first found out I was pregnant at, you know, five or six weeks, and that my GP said I needed to have an early test. And I was like, okay. I had heard about early testing. When I got diagnosed the first time they said I'd need to be early tested. So I didn't think anything of it and I went and did the glucose test and I was not diabetic at that point. Then I got the referral to the hospital and they said I needed to have an early test and I was like, already done my early test and they said it was too early that the GP shouldn't have recommended me doing it then. So then I did the early test with them. And then when I got the referral to the home birth team and they said I needed to do the 28 week test. I was like, I've already done it twice, it's negative. And they said, no, you have to do the 28 week one. And I was like, why did I do it? Like, what was the point of the other two? Like it's not pleasant drinking. No. for three hours or however long it takes. Yeah, of course. And then yeah, on the third time is when I, you know, exactly the same as my first pregnancy, I... failed on the fasting by point one. What the heck? But so that so the first two tests, it was completely fine. And then on the last, the third one, then they were like, What? my gosh. then they didn't want on home birth anymore. What? were just waiting at the time. Yeah. Yeah. How did you come to find out about like doula support? Do you remember? I don't remember. think it just kind of came up in some of my socials. Obviously, I was doing a lot of research at the time and following a few birthing Instagram pages and podcasts. And I think the algorithm just sent her my way. And she was a student at the time in Darwin. And I was I was just craving that, you know, somebody to soundboard with and to follow me along through. you know, kind of consistently, which I didn't get with Matilda at all with the hospital. So, so yeah, I linked up with her and she was amazing. I didn't even know what a Dula was before. Like I'd never heard the word Dula before. And my, a few of my family thought I was quite woo woo for, know, what's a Dula and he's gonna sing under the moonlight together with the crystals and you know, things like that. so good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, she was wonderful. She was, you know, my sounding board throughout and she was able to really, you know, provide a lot of information to me and, and yeah, just helped me make my choices. Yeah. We're just too distracting for you Angus. Hey, it's not settling. Hey, it's cause mum is talking. Hey. yeah, wow. Okay. And so at how many weeks? Were you, did you start to look into, sorry, sorry, going back, so there is a private midwife in Darwin? So there is now. I was pregnant with Edith. She was not yet registered in the Northern Territory. So she was going through the process, but I missed the cutoff for her. Like she didn't align. Yeah, yeah. So she wasn't registered. Yeah, yeah. Privately, yeah. Yeah. did you find like, how does that work with Edith then? So yeah, so Edith was basically a free birth. Yeah. Wow. my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. So it was, was just Tom was Matilda there? no, she wasn't. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So you were really, yeah. Influenced by the lack of midwives, like in terms of free birth, I guess, you know, there's quite a question at the moment. I know that like around the professional indemnity insurance stuff that like if you take away access to midwifery, then free birth is going to rise. And like here is the perfect example of that. Like if you take it away, if you deny like women are still going to birth at home, they're just going to do it without midwives. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So yeah. my goodness. Yeah. Did you have like any like fears? what? you try and find a private midwife, you find out, okay, there's no private midwife. Like, did you have any? I even try and find a private midwife. I didn't like, it was never really an option. I just kind of heard that there was a midwife. I think maybe even my daughter. had mentioned it that there was somebody in the process of registering, but yeah, it wasn't registered. So yeah, I didn't even really explore it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and so, sorry, remind me again, how many weeks that was roughly? that was probably, I don't know, midway just after 20 weeks. Yeah. Yeah. Just pausing here to thank the August sponsor for the podcast. Mama Goodness is a mom -owned business based in Melbourne, founded by life after birth authors Jessica Prescott and Vaughn Geary. Mama Goodness' goals are to nourish and nurture moms through motherhood. They create plant -powered, i .e. vegan, organic and naturopathic formulated products to support women through pregnancy, postpartum and beyond. Their lactation cookies are highly rated. There is also a gluten -free option, but they also sell lactation tea and granola. So if you're looking for a tasty treat for yourself or a gift for someone, check out mama goodness online now at www .mammagoodness .com .au. And thanks so much to mama goodness for supporting this month's podcast episodes. And did you do any like extra education or anything like that in Edith's pregnancy? I was researching like a mad woman with Edith. I could not watch enough birth vlogs on YouTube and listen. And one thing that really helped with some of the fear stuff was I just kind of unpacked what was bothering me. So there was this fear about the cord wrapping around the neck and what I was going to do with the cord was wrapped around the neck. I started researching it and then I found out that's not even a non -issue really. And was like, okay. Yeah, you hear so many stories about like reasons for C -sections that, you know, and then the, had a C -section because the cord was around the neck and I'm like, but you, like, the chance of that actually doing something is like so rare. So like, okay. So I just unwrap it. Exactly what the hospital made. Yeah. All the little things like that. Yeah, I just did my research on them individually and unpacked them and kind of prepped Tom a bit on things to expect and you know what some of the things were that you know would constitute us, you know, needing more support and you know, needing to call an ambulance or getting in the car and going to the hospital. Were there any specific things that you can remember that were that you... You know, you were like, well, I might consider transfer or getting support with that. Yeah. So I think, cord prolapse was, you know, a main one. I think that was really the only one that kind of really scared me. I had, a little bit of a bleed with Tilly. so I was, you know, kind of looking at different amounts of blood and you know, how much 100 mil versus a liter actually looks like and to tell Tom like, know, this is when you might need to call an ambulance. But yeah, cool. Yeah, there wasn't. I was just really content with my decision. And I just like I was just really trusting of my body and like, kept coming back to the fact that my body was built to give birth like literally, so wouldn't like it wouldn't put me in a situation that I couldn't, you know. handle law. And if I couldn't handle it, then you know, I back up there in the the form of an ambulance. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Were there any particular resources that you found like most helpful? think watching the birth videos on YouTube, was just Googling, YouTubing, lots of different births and just watching other people give birth and just, yeah, because I blacked out so much of Matilda's and like I couldn't really remember, you know, much of it, like just watching other people in labor just gave me some expectations and like what I was likely to experience. So. Yeah. And, you know, because home birth is, you know, not so easy, but it's like, you know, more natural and things are a bit calmer than everybody in the videos were a lot calmer. it was a much more peaceful experience. And I was just hoping that that's what it would be for me as well. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And so when did you go into labour with Edith? Yeah, so I was about 40 and five with Edith. And yeah, I remember waking up at about 2am and I was really emotional. Like I was just crying and I was stressed and I had a bit of insomnia and I woke up and I just did some yoga. I was really loving my yoga at that point. So I just did some stretches and kind of calmed myself down and went back to sleep. What was that? Yeah. And then Couple hours later, I woke to like this kind of jolt feeling in my belly. And I didn't know at that time that that was my kind of water's breaking. This kind of weird popping jolt. And then some cramping started and I was like, okay. What's going on here? Tried to, if I was laying really still, like it went away. But then if I like rolled over in bed, I'd get a cramp. And I was like, okay, I'm not really sure what this is. but yeah, it wasn't consistent or anything. It was just kind of like when I moved. Woke up in the morning, Tilly woke us up at about 6 a and once I got up and was moving around, I was starting to feel, you know, the cramps a bit more consistently, very mild at that point. So was very happy to just kind of go about my day. Tilly was pestering me to go in the pool, but I was not sure if I could. if my waters had broken, so I decided to take her to our local water park where she'd be able to swim but I wouldn't need to get in the pool. Yeah, of course. Yeah. We left the house at about 10 a left my husband at home, told him, yeah, told him he knew that I was in labor but I was like I'm going to the water park, it's fine, you know, I'll come home before anything happens. Yeah, yeah. I didn't know that the water park that we went to, there's like a bit of a reception black hole, so had, he was trying to check in on me and I was freaking out. Yeah. So that was funny. I got home at about 12 and put Tilly to bed. And that's when I started having my first kind of contractions that was starting to stop me. Yeah. A bit so kind of yeah, labored through them. were just watching some TV and I was on the birth ball at home and Tilly was asleep at this point and she woke up. She was a bit sooky when she woke. I think she was a bit confused as to why I was on a ball and kind of moaning a bit. She was already planned to have a sleepover with Tom's mum. So we kind of messaged her and said, is it cool if we drop Tilly off now? They didn't know that I was in labor, but she was like, yep. So Tom left at about... three o 'clock to take Tilly to his mum's house. As soon as he left, it felt like it ramped up for me. And I jumped in the shower with the hot water. I'm just waiting for him to get home. And yeah, he got home at about 3 .45 and I was like, filled the birth pool. Like I wanna be in the hot water and I wasn't loving the shower. Yeah, he filled that up and then... We kind of, I think at about four o 'clock, we called Kirsty, my daughter. And yeah, I was in the pool and just laboring in there. I kind of felt like it was painful, but it wasn't. And in like what I could remember of Tilly's birth, I was like, I've still got hours to go. Like this is nothing compared to Tilly. So we mustn't be anywhere close yet. I've got a long time ahead of me. Yeah. And then I remember, like just getting that bearing down feeling and I think I don't know if it was Tom or Kirsty, but somebody was like, do you want to take your undies off? And I was like, no, not really. I've got ages to go. Like, I don't want to be naked here. And they were like, no, take them off. yeah, then like, I was on my hands and knees and I kind of rolled over and I went down and I could feel her head like right there. And so, yeah, a couple more pushes and then rolled back onto my hands and knees and out she came. Wow. He pulled her up out of the water but the wrong way, like from behind and sort of trying to get my leg over the obstacle cord. And yeah, was just like, was the best experience of my life. Like I was, even though I was so confident in my decision to home birth, like I still think like deep down, I had that bit of fear and like, I remember saying like I did it and like, I was so shocked that I had done it. And my husband debriefed with me after the fact and he was like, thought you were so confident until you said I did it. And that was when I was like, wait, I thought she had this all along. you can show yourself like the tone of my mind. It was just like, my god, like, yeah, I did it. yeah, yeah. And yeah, we had a beautiful golden hour in the pool, literally. I think she was born at 530. So it was literally golden hour golden rays coming through the lounge room window. took a little bit to birth the placenta, like I had to move around a bit. I went from the pool to the toilet to the couch. Yeah. And then that came out and got into bed and my husband bought me a cheese platter and it was just so nice to just be at home. Yeah, such a contrast to the experience that you had. yeah, chalk and cheese, if you will. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. It amazing being in some family and everyone was just like really happy but you could tell really relieved as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely that sense of relief that, you know, it had all gone well and we were all safe. Yeah. What was your postpartum like with Edith then? It was beautiful. Like there was just no... Yeah, I was on cloud nine for so long from from the birth and I was just like really proud to like get out there and show her off and like talk to people about my birth and like I remember with Tilly when you know when all the girls came over to meet her and you know talk about the birth and you know just like breaking down in tears but Like with Edith, I was just so happy and just like, you know, this is what we did and it was the best experience. Like I couldn't shout it loud enough that it was the best experience. Yeah. And I just want all my friends to start having home births. Convert everybody. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And so then Angus, were pregnant in 2023 with Angus. Yeah. So again, got pregnant by surprise. Definitely weren't planning it, but along it came. When I was pregnant with Edith, I was part of a Facebook group called Free Birth and Wild Pregnancy. And that's when I kind of come across the term wild pregnancy. It's just like that. Interesting. So much of my, I guess, anxiety came from like the antenatal stage of pregnancy. you know, like I had the two vessel cord with Matilda and, know, went on the, you know, the Google with that and like all the things that could happen. And I didn't mention this, but with Edith, I had velomentous cord. yeah, yeah, Like, you know, Googling and like all the things that, you know, could potentially go wrong with that. That might be an issue that I just decided quite early on that I just didn't want any of that stress with this pregnancy. I just wanted to like just be in tune with it and just whatever happened, happened. wasn't going to go for any ultrasounds. I wasn't going to have another thing that was potentially going to cause me stress and make me worry through the pregnancy. I told my husband that I was going to have a wild pregnancy and he was like, okay. Yeah, we just I went for the HCG test at the doctor's. Yeah, because I needed to get a letter confirming my pregnancy for work. Yeah. So that was the only test he the doctor tried to like do the and in a referral. And, you know, my referrals to ultrasound and all the other blood tests that go along with the HCG normally like all those stupid STD checks and yeah, all that stuff. And I just was like, no, no. And He was very confused, poor doctor. was like, you mean no? I don't need any of that. I don't want any of that. He gave it to me anyway. He was like, here's the referral. I have to give it to you. You do what you want with it. like, in the bin. So yeah, I did that very first blood test and that was it. I didn't go for any ultrasounds. I didn't... get the referral to the antenatal clinic. didn't see any of those midwives and doctors and just had a beautiful pregnancy. I was so relaxed and I just, yeah, I felt good the whole pregnancy. I worked up to 39 weeks. I think I was like four days of mat leave before he was born. I felt like I could have easily gone. like longer like I didn't feel done like yeah and over it like I had with the other two. What do you usually do for work like other work apart from life? I work at the prison in Darwin. okay. So not with prisoners like not as a prison officer. Worked at the prison there and yeah, I just felt really good and Yeah, didn't have didn't have any concerns. Yeah. Did you and when you sorry, just about your your work, do you have to wear a belt? Because I also worked at a prison here in Melbourne. And we have like, they the belts and I just have to put it on under my belly. And I just felt so ridiculous. I was like, this is So contradictory because like, I'm so pregnant, can barely sit down to talk to people. And having this big like, non flexible, like belt with like keys and like dress and all the stuff hanging off it. that's funny. Yeah, didn't have to wear a Yeah, nice. Yeah, I mean, that sounds amazing. and that's Yeah, that's what my experience with my two pregnancies has been as well. Like it's the any natal stuff that I mean, I feel like you do have to weigh up. what is the like if it's going to make you so anxious, the possibility because really anything could happen. Like nothing is guaranteed in anything like, you know, and the amount of your anxiety and stress and you know, even when it comes to like partners or kids, like, you know, I see people like post in mom's groups, being like, like, what do you do with your kids? Like when you have to go to the hospital for any natal appointments? And I'm like, my God, that's such a horrible problem to have because like, that must be so stressful. You have to organize like your, your own like probably work like time like who's gonna look after the kids and then you go to the hospital for hours, part like it just my gosh. running. Yeah. Really excited to not have to worry about any of that and I felt so educated myself from Edith's pregnancy and birth and like really empowered. So I was yeah I was just like no I'm not doing it this time there's no need for me to do that it didn't do me. good last time, except caused me more worry and have to deal with, you know, doctors and even midwives, you know, spouting their hospital policy at me and me knowing that I had choices with a lot of that stuff. So I was like, nah, I'm doing it. Did you plan, were you going to have Matilda or Edith present? Yeah, I them to be present. really keen for them to be there. I'd watched so many birth videos with kids there and just like what a beautiful experience. you know, I'm so pro home birth now. Yeah. I really wanted to instill that in my girls from the very get go that this was very normal and, you know, they should be a part of it. Yeah, absolutely. Did you do anything different like preparation wise this time? No, not really. think I kind of relaxed a bit. felt like I had a lot of the information already from all the research I'd done with Edith. I was just still listening to podcasts, listening to your podcast and listening to your first stories and yeah, just keeping abreast of things that way, but not as deeply diving into the research like I did the first time with Edith. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was just happy to. kind of just have a really chill pregnancy and go along with it. A few like a lot of people didn't really understand what I was doing. Like they didn't realize that that's what I was doing. yeah, you know, when they could see an ultrasound picture and me trying to explain that I wasn't having any ultrasound. Yeah, fusion. Yeah, they knew that I was pre birthing and I think from You know, my experience with Edith, they were a bit more content with that this time around. Yeah. Like my mum, bless her. Yeah, I had no idea that that's what free birth and wild pregnancy meant. Yeah, I don't think she fully worked out what it was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, sometimes I do. I do tell people like, yeah, like, you know, there's such a thing as a wild pregnancy. And they're just like, confused. I don't even think they have like an idea of what it is. They're just confused. Yeah. Well, I said to somebody else having a wild pregnancy and they were like, like, what do mean? Like outside on the grass? good. I was really happy at that point to educate people more. Whereas with Edith, was quite keeping it in and not telling too many people. this point, was telling everybody that would listen about the research and the benefits of home birth. And with Tom feeling more confident this time as well. Yeah, yeah, he was definitely coming off of the back of either side still like very much that, you we could do this and yeah, you know, we didn't need them and had full just trust and confidence in me to to do it. Yeah. Yeah, cool. And so at how many weeks did you go into labor with Angus? So I was 39 and five when labor started. So yeah, we'll just, so I started Mat Leave on the Friday. And then, so my first week of Mat Leave, the next week, my two girls both got very sick and sent home from nature. So my first, yeah, my first real day of Mat Leave, because I always have Mondays off. So Tuesday was my first official day of Mat Leave. They both got sent home from. daycare and Wednesday I went into labor. They were at home and it was very mild to start with, similar to Edith. I think labor kicked off at about four o 'clock on the Wednesday and just very spaced out and mild and kind of said to Tom like I think I might be having some contractions but not really sure it could fizzle out. So we went about our evening as normal at about 10 o 'clock. I was pretty sure that it was pretty consistent, like 30 minutes apart. So he started just getting the birth pool ready and filling up the tank and things like that. And then I kind of, the girls were both really sick, so they were not sleeping well. So I said, you just take the girls and jump into bed with them and settle them and I'll just... labor on my own and I'll call you wake you up if I need to. This stage is pretty, pretty mild. So yeah, he went bad. And I labored like all night. I didn't get a wink of sleep. So pretty consistent at 10 minutes apart. But like strong but not like overbearing. Yeah. point. Sorry for Angus's pregnancy, did you have a doula or not this time? Yes, I had Kirsty again. You did have Kirsty again. Yeah, I my doula. Yeah. So yeah, I think I messaged her before I went to bed and just said, hey, think something might be happening. I'll let you know if it kicks off overnight. Otherwise, I'll talk to you in the morning. it just went all night. Just yeah, really consistent, steady contractions. then in the morning, we all got up the girls were really unwell. And so I was in the middle of is Easter weekend. Yeah. And in the middle of switching Matilda from her daycare to a new school, early learning center. Thursday was the only day that we could get her uniforms before she started. Yeah. We sent I sent Tom out to do that and get that sorted. So he left and left me at home with Edith and he took Tilly and as soon as he left again, it was just like ramped up. And I was like, don't take too long. Like, it's just got really quick all of a sudden and really powerful. Messaged my daughter, Kirsty and said, yeah, you know, make start making your way here. I was at this point going off of Edith. birth and I was like, this is going to happen really fast. I'll be having a baby today. Yeah. Yeah. So they got there, got home and Kirsty got there at about 11 a and I was just laboring around the house. It was pretty strong and it felt really, felt really different to eat a slaver. Like I was already starting to feel like this is really quite painful and different to eat us. Yeah. And I was kind of moving from like a cupboard in my room that was about hip height that I was kind of holding onto and swaying through the contractions to the pool, which wasn't getting quite hot enough for my liking and the couch, which was really uncomfortable. So was kind of rotating between those three locations, just trying to get in a position that I could bear the contractions. And yeah, they were really hurting. It was really different this time. Yeah. And I was very vocal. And about one o 'clock, my waters broke and I was like, finally, like, you know, this is like, it's gonna happen now. Like, yeah, here we go. And then yeah, still very much the same, the pain kind of ramped up, but nothing else was really happening. It was just off like in my head I was like, we should be having a baby by now based off of Edith's birth. it wasn't like it was taking so long. And I was obviously very tired already from having been up all night. I think sometime between, can't remember what time it was, but between my waters breaking and about four o 'clock, I had a good hour. where I couldn't feel any movement. Like I was really trying to feel for some movement between the contractions and I wasn't getting anywhere, getting anything. And I think that's when I started to get in my head a little bit. Like why can't I feel him moving? I've been feeling him moving this whole time and now like it's really, really painful. And now the movement stopped as well. And I think after about an hour, I finally, felt a little bit of movement, but I was very much in my head by that point and very much over the pain. that's I think I started to ask, well, scream at my husband to get me to the hospital that I didn't want to do it anymore. And he did his job of trying to distract me and change things up. He thought like, you know, might be transition and that's usually when they start screaming for the hospital. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, went through that for a little bit longer of him, you know, and Kirsty suggesting other things and trying different movements. But I wasn't getting any relief. And so I think that's when we decided that I was going to transfer into hospital. couldn't do it anymore and I really needed some pain relief. Yeah. Yeah. We called my cousin and she came, she was just around the corner luckily. So she's only five minutes away and she came to watch the girls and we got into the car. Yeah. drove to the hospital is the worst 40 minute drive 40 minutes. Jess. my gosh. Yeah. Very, very painful. Yeah. I do all the rang ahead to let them know that I was coming in and they said come straight up to the birthing suites. I didn't have to go to a moat because obviously I wasn't on their system. Yeah. So yeah, I did manage to do that and like parked in the emergency car park and went upstairs and I don't know how birthing women do that, having to walk through the front doors of the hospital and getting an elevator and there's all these other people around and like it was horrible. Yeah. You're like in the worst pain, you look like a crazy woman. Like I think I had a like a tea towel or something in my mouth to like chew on that, like a wet towel. I just feel for every woman that know, deep late. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, so we got upstairs and we went through some options for pain relief. I ended up getting an epidural and at the start, I didn't want the epidural because in my head I was like the epidural didn't work for me last time. I don't want to waste time trying to do the epidural when it didn't work. We're just going to end up like I was very much before I got any pain relief. was very much just let's just jump to a C -section like I was out of my mind and I was not thinking. I was like, let's just make this end. I'm so thankful to have had my daughter there and Tom to be like, you know, there's other options. We don't have to go straight to the Cesar. Did you like in your pregnancy with Edith and Angus, did you prepare like, like some sort of birth plan transfer thing or not really? did with Angus, was like, it didn't even cross my mind that I would transfer to hospital. I was very much like, I've got this like I was so confident and I was like, yeah, I'm not packing a bag and preempting going to the hospital because I'm not going to need that. Like, we're going to give birth, it's going to be as beautiful as it was with Edith. Yeah, so I really wasn't prepared. physically or mentally for transfer. Yeah, that's so amazing that you had a doula and that she also rang ahead like that's that's fantastic. Yeah, so yeah, very, grateful for her. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. The calm presence that I needed throughout, know, especially when things got really hectic and yeah, she brought me back to, you know, what my choices were and what I what I wanted and didn't want. Yeah, well, so yeah. So yeah. Anyway, we ended up getting the epidural and yeah, was very much a relief once I got that pain relief. But as soon as I got it as well, I started realizing like I was in hospital and it was not where I wanted to be and I was defeated at that point. And he still wasn't coming. I was yeah, laboring in there or not that I could feel it, but you know, the contractions and very much on their timeline. I do think that because I obviously had the mindset that I did that I was able to push back a lot. You know, the things that I didn't want, I was able to hold my power in that in that regard. But they were very much like, you know, you can't push for this long and we need to start thinking about an instrumental delivery and like, no, no. But then I think about 11 .30 I was just over it all and I finally consented to the vacuum I think after three or four times of them trying to push it on me. Yeah, well. Yeah, had a vacuum delivery with him. Yeah. he's our big boy. 4 .9 kilos. 4 .9. Angus. How big was Edith? Edith was 4 .1. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so Matilda was 4 .3, Edith 4 .1 and then Angus 4 .9. my goodness. Yeah, so he was quite chunky. Yeah, I don't know. Like they, looking back at the video and from what, you know, Tom and my daughter said, like, I don't know what other vacuum deliveries are like, but they said it was very forceful. Like there was a lot of force behind trying to get him out. So. Yeah. But yeah, I don't know why he wasn't just coming down or, you know, coming out of his own accord. guess one of those things I'll never know. I don't think within half an hour of him being born I was asking to go home. I was like, get me out of here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So going back just a little bit. So when you call... in or when they find out you're coming to the hospital and then you're like at the hospital and you said like, did they say anything about like, no, like having had a wild pregnancy or anything like that? did they they rude? they like, what was that experience like? The midwife that I had was really nice. She wasn't from the hospital. She was a know what she was on loan from another place. Afterwards, which was like, I don't work here. And I was like, what do you mean? You're giving birth with me for how long and you don't work here. Yeah, that was funny. I'm lying from somewhere. Okay. So I don't think she was as strong on the policy as another midwife could have been. So She was quite supportive of my choices to not want examinations and to push back on some of the things. there was a team leader, I think she was a team leader, was... I just got that vibe from her. I had a couple eye rolls and the offhand comments. Really well. Yeah, so it just... I'm barging into the room when I'm in the middle of... you know, trying to push out a baby and just coming and having a look between my legs without even like introducing herself to me in the room. It's just like, like, who are you? Yeah. And why are you here? Yeah. It wasn't too bad, but it wasn't like I was expecting. I was prepared for it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That makes me so upset because, you know, if you're But in a car crash and you go to the hospital, people aren't being like, well, I presume people aren't like, well, you were speeding, so you kind of deserve it. you know, but, you know, when women transfer, like, yeah, I mean, they say that like, there is no failure failed. home birth, it's only like utilizing the resources that you have and like you have access to a hospital and you were needing the hospital or you're needing extra support, different support, whatever. And that's what you did. You used it and you have a right to use it. like, yeah, I think their attitude is, yeah, not, not right. And I guess, I mean, that just speaks to the broader system, right? And why there is so many so much or such a high rate of birth trauma and you know, how even how many women out there that don't describe their experiences traumatic but equally not, you know, amazing and empowering and you know, the middle kind of part of the spectrum like anyway. I didn't mention with Edith's home birth is the next morning I rang my midwives at the hospital. yeah. been with them and I rang them to say, hey, I gave birth and they were like, my God, like, you know, come on in. I was like, no, no, I gave birth like last night, like yesterday afternoon. And they were like, what? How come? You know, how come you didn't come in and how come you didn't call us? And I was like, I just felt really good and, know, didn't didn't think I need to. So I just waited till the morning and they were like, basically said like, okay, well, we're dumping you from our care and you just need to go to emergency from here on out if you need anything and hung up the phone. And it was just like, didn't want to bar of me because I had, know, free birth at home and not confident to them. I need to go straight to them. Yeah, yeah. It's just, it's so black and white because I have seen like other mum's planning free birth or whatever, be like, you know, it would still be nice to have a bit of post -natal care, like, you know, to be able to choose like that, like that should be possible. there's yet so, yeah, so many. Yeah, I mean, even I would imagine you would encounter it like at the GP as well, because they would be like, my gosh, like you've had you've had no care like what this wild pregnancy. I remember when I recorded with Stacey, she had a free birth in New Caledonia. And there was so many language barriers, but like, they were just, they just couldn't wrap their head around and they were just trying like It's kind of like you're off the conveyor belt and the system is constantly trying to push you back on. Because they just can't see any other alternative. Yeah. When I was pregnant with Angus, I went to the doctor for a cough, like completely un-pregnancy related. Yeah. Didn't want any care, but I'd had this cough that was just lasting weeks and weeks. And so I just went in to get that checked out. And you know, think they asked me a couple questions about my cough and then it was questions about my pregnancy, how far along I was, you know, where I was with my antenatal care and I kind of said to them, you know, I'm not not having any antenatal care and they were shook like they couldn't wrap their heads around it and the doctor got on the phone to her, you know, I guess team leader or doctor and they were talking about me like I wasn't even there and that were saying, you know, this lady is preparing to birth at home and she hasn't had any care and she's presenting for this cough. You know, what do I do? And the doctor on the phone was like, tell her she needs to go to hospital and she needs to, you know, start checking in with them. And I was just like, but what about my cough? Like I went away and she said, back in a few weeks if you've still got it. So I went back in a few weeks and they were like, have you been to the hospital yet? Like, have you seen a midwife? And I was like, no, like. What about my cough? Like I'm here for my cough. I'm not here for my pregnancy. Could not wrap their head around it and like was so concerned for me. And I was just like, I'm fine. Like, I'm not here for any of that. Can you help me with the reason? With my cough? Can you help me with anything for this cough? Yeah. And yeah, was just like, remember them saying to me at one point, you're so brave for even considering this. And I was like, I'm I'm so sick of hearing that I'm so brave for wanting to do something that's in my best interest. Like I think people going to the hospital to give birth are so brave. I'm like, that's the brave person because you completely lose your power once you go in there and you're not prepared. The medical assistants just could not wrap their head around me wanting to disassociate with them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. my goodness. So Angus was born around Easter time this year. Yeah. And so what's that, you know, reflection process or what what's your postpartum been like, you know, such a change in, you know, how it all ended up and I can I can just imagine that would be a lot to process. Yeah, so like I said before, once I got the pain relief in hospital, that's when I kind of hit me that I was in hospital and I was so disappointed. And after we got home, I was just dealing with so much mentally. I felt like I was so ashamed that I went to hospital. I felt like the biggest fraud because here I was speaking to anybody that would listen about. you know, how the body was built for it. And like, I've got this and I don't need hospitals and I don't need the doctors to tell me how to give birth. And then, you know, I ended up in hospital and I couldn't do it this time around. So I really battled with that quite a lot for the definitely for the first few weeks. I got, I was on a Facebook group for free birth and I remember speaking to them about it and got so many words of like encouragement and support from them about you know, just being able to trust my instincts that I needed to go to hospital and that's what, you know, the is there for. So I think that really helped me to start processing it that it was okay and I wasn't this big fraud. But yeah, I didn't really want to talk to people about it for quite some time because yeah, I just had this immense feeling of shame and yeah, embarrassment and failure. But as time went on, I started to process it and I, yeah, that I'd made the right decision going in and that I'd still, you know, my power and I was proud of how I, you know, held that once I got in there and protected myself once I was in there and was able to stand up for myself and speak up for myself. And yeah, now four months down the track, I'm feeling much better about it. and sharing. put a post out on Instagram a couple, well, like a week or two ago about, you know, what kind of stories people might want to hear. And there was a lot of people that wanted to hear about transfer stories. you know, I think that is definitely a gap in transfer stories and that probably perpetuates this, you know, this feeling of being ashamed because like, what your story isn't like of value to share. But I think, yeah, like that we should be supporting each other and absolutely exactly what you said, like trusting. Yeah, like you, you made the decision to go to hospital and like, yeah, who, who knows? Like, like, like we said at the very beginning, like anything can happen in birth, right? Anything can happen in pregnancy. And you can tie your brain or yourself into knots thinking about all of the different potentialities. But like at the end of the day, that this is this is the story and you know, it's the story for so many other women as well. So I'm really, really grateful that you're feeling OK to share it. And yeah, I hope other people that listen to this story also feel heard and you know, can feel more positive about the way that they've used the system exactly like how you're meant to use it. know, like birth goes right most of the time and when it doesn't or when, you know, you're needing that extra support that you can't like, you can't have an epidural at home. And the reality is like sometimes you do need an epidural. Some women do need an epidural. yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think it is important to talk about it and yeah, I hope it does. I hope we can talk about it more generally that it's okay to feel like that and that there is a way out of it as well. Yeah, absolutely. Use the system when we need to, that's what it's there for. Yeah, and you should never feel all like be made to feel ashamed, know, or eye rolls and, you know, backhanded comments and all of the above being. broken up with the postpartum care and whatever, like they're in the wrong, not you. So yeah, I'm really grateful that you shared your stories. Do you have anything that we haven't talked about that you'd like to talk about or anything we missed? No, I think I covered off on it. Yeah, I just want, I just wish that more people were, you know, just given the options, like they might not choose home birth, but to know that it's even an option that they can have that. the research and information around home birth, it helps so many more people, even if they choose to birth in hospital, just the mindset stuff and knowing that you don't have to say yes to every test that they make you do, that you can stand up and say, I don't wanna do that or I wanna do this instead. I just hope that people are able to get that information more freely. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, simply literally just planning a home birth increases your chance of a physiological birth. So, yeah, you know, that says something. Cool. Well, thank you. Thank you so, much. It was awesome to chat with you. Thanks.