'Geriatric' Aussie expat with PCOS has 2x homebirths in Canada || Salina's birth of Kirra (2020) and Jai (2023) at home (Canada)

Episode 48 is shared by Australian 'Salina', who shares her 2 homebirth stories from Banff, Canada.
She also shares the multiple reasons why she chose midwifery care, how she came to choosing homebirth late in her first pregnancy and the benefits of doula care. And all these whilst being labelled by the system as geriatric! These are 2 beautiful stories showing the power of having truly informed pregnancy care. 

Connect with me, Elsie, the host :)

www.birthingathome.com.au

@birthingathome_apodcast

birthingathome.apodcast@gmail.com


Resources: 

• PCOS and pregnancy https://www.jeanhailes.org.au/health-a-z/pcos/fertility-and-pregnancy
• 'Advanced Maternal Age' and 'Geriatric' pregnancy https://www.sarawickham.com/articles-2/induction-for-advanced-maternal-age/
• Freya App https://thepositivebirthcompany.com/freya-hypnobirthing-app
• Dr Rachel Reed's Website https://www.rachelreed.website/
• Hypnobirthing Australia https://hypnobirthingaustralia.com.au/

Transcript

0:02

Hi everyone, welcome to Birthing at Home, a podcast. I'm Elsie, your host. I'm a home birth mom of two little boys. I'm a mental health nurse, the co -creator of Home Birth Victoria, and I'm a Melbourne based doula. If you want to learn more about me, the podcast, all my work, check out www.birthingathome .com .au. And before we begin today, I would like to acknowledge the Wurundjeri people who are the traditional custodians of the land I'm recording on in Nam. Melbourne, Australia. I would also like to acknowledge the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people have been birthing at home on country for tens of thousands of years prior to the British invasion and acknowledge that sovereignty has never been ceded. Episode 48 comes all the way from Canada, shared by Australian Selena, who shares her two home birth stories from Banff, Canada. She also shares the multiple reasons why she chose midwifery care. how she came to choosing home birth late in her first pregnancy and the benefits of doula care. And all these whilst being labeled by the system as geriatric. These are two beautiful stories showing the power of having truly informed pregnancy care. Enjoy this beautiful episode. Welcome Selena to Birthing at Home, a podcast. Hi, Elsie. It's so nice to be here. Thank you for joining me. Selena, do you want to start by giving a bit of background about who you are? where you live, who's in your family, that kind of thing? Yeah, absolutely. So I grew up in Beaumaris and I lived there up until 2015 when I moved to Canada. I was meant to come across for a little holiday and here I am nine years later. yeah, I moved to a little town Banff and I met my partner here and we ended up getting married. And then in 2020, I fell pregnant with my daughter, Kira. It was super exciting. Ben and I had been chatting about the possibility of having kids and I thought it would take me a long time, honestly, because I'd been diagnosed with PCOS years and years and years ago. And then they just, you know, the usual, don't worry about it until it's time to try. And so we just thought we'll start trying and then first go there we were. Yeah. Wow. Wow. So, yeah, anyway, I guess, yeah, back onto my family. There's Ben, my partner, and then I've got a little girl, Kira, who's three now and my son, Jai just turned one. So it's a mad house at the minute, but I love it. We were just chatting listeners because yeah, our seconds are like days apart. Like we're on the same journey. That's so cool. But like Banff, don't all Australians go to Banff? Yes. Why wouldn't you? I've never been, we were meant to go to to Canada, like on some working holiday trip thing. but yeah, I feel like it's bent that little. It's pretty small. think it's got, is it 9 ,000 now and the population of 9 ,000. Yeah. but yeah, a lot of transients like we'll have people just come for a season and that's what a lot of people do. They'll just come here to work a winter season or. come for a climbing summer and then plan to leave. But a lot of us fall in love with the place and get stuck. That's so beautiful. And so what before having Kira, what were you doing for work? Like you work in like a ski resort or something or? Kind of. I work for a heli ski company actually. I work in communications. It is pretty cool. Wow. Is that like where you like get dropped off on the mountain and then you ski down? Totally. That's exactly what it What? Yeah. Have you done it? Yes. my gosh. That's so cool. Now you can see why I can't leave. my gosh. Whenever I see that, think on my like wall, like it's like a thing from Red Bull or something. Badass. That's amazing. And so. So you got pregnant in 2020 with Kira. you know, that journey beforehand, because you, from our messages, you only came to home birth late in that pregnancy with Kira, is that right? I did. So before, you know, even with the PCOS and whatnot, what was your thoughts on home birth or birthing at home? Honestly, I hadn't even given it a thought. And I think that's, yeah, I assume it's pretty common. Like I just thought, you know, when you get pregnant, you go to the doctor and they kind of tell you what to do from there. And that was just my understanding of it. And yeah, I feel completely differently about it now, but you kind of don't know what you don't know, right? When you start. Like I, I didn't grow up surrounded by kids. I had cousins, but I never like nurtured or kind of saw much of that in my life beforehand. And so I really didn't know. my options, didn't know the process and it was all new. So I just had my faith in the system, I guess. And coming from Australia, actually, I didn't even have like a GP, like a family doctor or anything like that. when I fell pregnant, I was like, my gosh, what do I do? Who do I go to? And there is a maternity clinic in the next town along in Canmore. And so because they had maternity in the name, I gave them a call and booked an appointment in there and that's how it started. So, Wow. yeah, I think that's so funny because yeah, once upon a time we would have had like family doctors that like, and I'm sure some people to do, but personally, like for me, it's only really since Frankie that I've actually sought out a GP that we can regularly go to. And even then it's private. It's not bulk billed, it's, you know, out of pocket. It's expensive. but you know, if you need something else, you just go to like, yeah, well, I'm not sure what it's like in Canada, but like, yeah, you just go to the cheapest clinic that can get the thing that you need to be done. Yeah. yeah. So I'm sure, I'm sure it's very similar in Australia that people are just Googling like what to do when you get pregnant. and do know Like, you know, now having had two home births, what's the culture of home birth in Canada, or at least in the area that you're in? There's not a lot. Like, I don't think that there's a huge amount. I think that the, you'd have to double check the stats, but I thought it was around 1%. So it is a really small amount in Canada that do choose to birth at home. They do have midwives covered. So when I did transfer to the midwife, it didn't cost me anything out of pocket, which was great. But yeah, I didn't even really know that that was a thing beforehand. So when, when the midwife went mentioned about a home birth, was like, my God, is this, is this a possibility? It seemed a little wild. So it's like, you didn't really have to pay like out of pocket for anything. Nothing. Yeah. It was, it's awesome. my gosh. Do you know how much, do you know how expensive it is in Australia? No. It's like $6 ,000. Are you serious? Yeah. And you don't get any, that's like for the birth. So for antenatal and postnatal, you can get some Medicare rebates, but the birth is not covered by Medicare. Private insurance doesn't cover it. I think there's like one private, like I think, if you're in the defense force very randomly, you can get some of it covered. which is super random, but otherwise, yeah, it's like $6 ,000. That's pretty average across Australia for a home birth. Wow. That is wild. Yeah. So otherwise you would just be unassisted. that if you could afford? Yeah. And I think, you know, I'm sure there's, I mean, I know there are many reasons that women choose to birth unassisted, but I'm certain that if private midwifery was, you know, cheaper or funded or supported, then more women would choose to birth. assisted with the support of a midwife. But yeah, at the moment, especially with the cost of living crisis stuff, like who has $6,000 to just drop on a, on a home birth, on a birth, you know? It's wild. So, so you had, have PCOS and you think that it's going to be really difficult, but actually you get pregnant. First go. First go. Wow. Do you want to walk us through that a little bit? Yeah. So we decided, you know, we'd start trying. We didn't know how long it would take. We assumed it was going to be, you know, a year at least, if not longer. I think how old was I at the time? 35 or 36. I think I was 35 at the time. So we thought, you know, we'll get kind of started. And yeah, I remember doing the pregnancy test because I was four days late and I hadn't paid attention because I just didn't think it was even. possible that it could happen straight away. And I hadn't been on birth control for over a decade. I'd just gone by, you know, understanding my cycle and just being careful in the times I needed to be careful. And so I thought, fact that I'd never even had a scare as well, I was like, okay, this is probably going to be hard. And I did the test four days after my cycle was due and I couldn't believe it. Elsie, looked at the thing. I was like, that can't be right. And for like 10 years to like, like, my goodness. Because like in school, in school, like when you're taught about sex ed, you're taught anytime, anywhere, any place, baby's just gonna be dropping. Exactly. Don't swim in a pool with a guy, you might end up pregnant. Right? Yeah, wow. That would have been such a big shock. It was, it was. And You know, this was something we would, we'd planned on and, but I think I was just so shocked that it happened so quickly. I just hadn't even thought it was possible. And, I remember going downstairs and Ben was there and I'm like, so I just did a pregnancy test and he's like, and I'm like, it came back positive. And he just looked at me and I'm like, I don't know what to think. Yeah. He's like, what do you think? I'm like, I think you'll be a really great dad. So sweet. So we were both kind of shell -shocked, but also past that we were super excited. Yeah, of course. so being 35, you say? 35. So I think maybe did you mention this in your message as well that were you considered geriatric? I mean, I hate using that term, but don't worry. They use that term. It came out in the first meeting. I'm like, great. Okay. I've already got risk factors. Like I don't feel at all. Yeah. Wow. And so you book in with this maternity doctor person. And so what were your options? Like how was your options presented to you? Like, was it just like you go to the hospital or? Yeah. Well, I mean, first off, I think, I guess I called them at four weeks, you I think it's considered four weeks and she said, we don't book you in until 11 weeks. So I thought, okay, I'll wait till 11 weeks. And actually I'd heard of midwives before one of my close friends here had her little girls by midwife. And she said it was a beautiful experience. She loved it. She had the midwives assist her at the hospital, like the local hospital here. And I was like, okay. So that's what the midwives do. They assist you at hospital. but it sounded like such a beautiful experience for her that I wanted that too, but I thought you had to go to a doctor and get it confirmed or do something official before you applied for a midwife. I literally had no idea. And I also thought because you had to wait until 12 weeks or I thought you had to wait till 12 weeks to tell people that I didn't share it with that friend. Otherwise she might've told me differently. So I didn't actually apply for the midwives. I waited until 11 weeks. I had the appointment at the maternity clinic and it was with a nurse. So you don't actually meet with the doctors the first time. and I sat in this room and I waited for ages, Elsie. I can't remember how long I sat there for. It felt like forever. Just waiting and waiting and they weighed me and did all these things. And then I sat in this room with a couple of pamphlets around it for forever. And then, yeah, she came in and she kind of just went through a couple of things, gave me these two gigantic books, which I never ended up reading. And yeah, she just told me like, we've got Canmore hospital here. You can't birth in Banff. They used to have a maternity ward at the hospital here and that closed down like a long time ago. So now anyone in Banff goes to Canmore, which it's only 15 minutes away. it's not a big deal. but they've got two rooms there. They kind of just tell you that's, that's basically what they do. And then the way that maternity clinic is structured is they have a number of doctors on it's quite a lot of doctors actually. You meet with a different doctor each time you go for a prenatal appointment. And so the point is when you go into labor, hopefully you've met the doctor that's going to be attending you at some point along the way, but you never really, I found you never establish a relationship because you kind of just meeting and trying to remember the name and they're getting up to speed on where your pregnancy is at. Anyway, it was kind of an interesting structure, but I also understand it from the perspective of having them rostered on and not knowing who's going to be attending your birth. so yeah, we got to the end of that appointment and she said, do have any questions? And I'm like, not really. Like, I don't know what I don't know. I've got no idea about any of this, but are you going to check? And she's like, check what? I'm like, check that I'm pregnant. She's like, I feel so dumb even saying this. She's like, well, did you pee on a stick? And I'm like, yeah, of course. That's why I'm here. She's like, well, did it come up positive? And I'm like, yes. She goes, congratulations, you're pregnant. That's so funny. I was like, I waited 11 weeks for this. I thought they somebody to just tell you, get it for you. wow. So did they do like a, like a, like a Doppler like for heartbeat or like ultrasound or I don't know if you can hear the heartbeat that early, like ultrasound or like No, there was, they just did my weight. I remember getting weighed and yeah, that was kind of it. It was just a bunch of information, kind of like the options and how, like how the prenatal appointments work. So it was really, it wasn't a whole lot of information. It was actually a relatively short session. was just with the nurse and yeah, I honestly came away from it feeling like, my God, I don't even know what to think. Like I really didn't have much more information than what I thought, but I was like, okay, well I guess I'll get along with it now and I'll go apply for the midwives because yeah, they, she said they can only do. hospital births, that's like purely what they do with the doctors there. Which is understandable. But yeah, I went home and I applied online for the midwifery clinic and I just, I never heard back from anyone. Wow. Yeah. So it is covered. The thing with the midwives here is that they can assist you at home or they can assist you at hospitals. So they've got rights at hospitals to attend there. Okay. So they can kind of assist you in either, either space. But they're really booked out. I know now that you book in as soon as you or you apply as soon as you're pregnant, but I had no idea. So it was like 11 weeks by the time I put an application in, I heard crickets from anyone. yeah, one of my other friends actually, she was pregnant. a weeks before me, six weeks ahead of me, and she got on with the midwives, but she applied the second that she found out. So we hadn't been talking because I was yeah, the stick is pregnant. Just to give any official congratulations. Yeah. So, so it looks that pretty quick. It's pretty similar in Australia as well. yeah, it's disappointing because, you know, because that is the case and you're not alone. Like there's so many women out there that don't even learn about private midwives until halfway, 75 % of the way through their pregnancy. And most of the time, like it's too late. Yeah. you need to, like, mean, yeah, it's great that you knew that that even existed, but yeah, what a bummer. So what happened then? Well, so then I started harassing them. Yeah. Good. I mean, that's what you should do. Yeah. Well, in the meantime, I was going through this, this normal stream of prenatal appointments, meeting random doctors throughout, and I didn't love it. You know, it just felt really not personal. I didn't feel like I was having any connection with anyone that I was talking to there. I didn't know what I didn't know to ask. So I kind of felt, I don't know. just, thought there would be a little more care or a little more hand holding and maybe my expectations were out to lunch, but I just didn't feel right. And so I, yeah, I started calling the midwifery clinic and the girl on reception, Lindsay, we ended up, yeah, she knew my voice. Yeah. will be I still haven't had any openings. And she's like, you know, it really looks up fast. You know, as soon as people find out they book in and we've only got so many midwives on and they can only take so many per month. And I totally understood it. And I was like, no worries. I just thought I'd check in. And then my friend who had a midwife at the same clinic. So where we're located, there's actually only one midwifery clinic that will service our area. Otherwise you need to go into Calgary, which is an hour and a half or longer away, depending on which way you're going to birth. So they're about an hour and 15 minutes away from here. So they were the ones I was trying to get in with. yeah, I just kept calling back and I'd hear from my friends that, they might have had a new midwife come on. And so I'd call again. I'd be like, hi, Lindsay. I heard you might have a new midwife coming on. And she was like, my gosh. She's like, you know what? We do have one coming on, but she's starting the month after your due date. So it wouldn't do anything. Then, yeah, I think I was at 24 weeks, 25 weeks pregnant and I called again and she said, you know what, I know you're desperate to get one. know, you know, you really want a midwife. She's like, I've got a midwife who loves a home birth. She's like, would you be interested in that? And I was like, yeah, whatever it takes to get a midwife. I think I'm interested. So she's like, let me go have a chat to her. I'll see if we can do some kind of rejigging of, like they have. I guess credits from how they can work the number of hours over the month. And she's like, let me have a chat with her and see if she would be able to take you on. And so she called me back maybe two days later and I was hanging to hear from her. was just dying to hear if this midwife would take me on. And she said she would. She's like, know what? She said she'll take you on if you are considering a home birth and you know, you can come and meet with her next week. I was like, okay. So I remember hanging up the phone and I went upstairs to Ben and I'm like, what do you think about a home birth? He's like, what? Isn't that a bit risky? I was like, I don't know. I don't know. He's asking all these questions. midwife will be there. I'm in. Yeah. Shant's at the midwife is great. So, wow. So he had a few questions and I was like, you know what? I don't have any answers. And I don't, I also. echo these questions. I really have never looked into a home birth. I don't know about any of that. But also, I'm very into natural things and all of that kind of lifestyle. And so it didn't, it certainly wasn't a hard note for me. I was it was something I was really happy to entertain. And so talking to Ben, I was like, let's just go for the meeting next week. And we'll ask her all questions and see if we're comfortable with it. And if we're not, We can always stay with the maternity clinic, you know, like there's nothing to lose. So he said, no worries, let's do that. And also just, just to know this whole time through my whole prenatal journey, Ben hadn't been able to come to anything because it was COVID and over, don't know what the restrictions were back home, but here it was like one person only. You can't bring your partner in. And so I was going to all these appointments and trying to remember what to tell him when I got back Yeah, just, think it was kind of a bit disconnected. So when, when we booked his appointment with the midwife, I said to her, I'm like, look, Cochrane's obviously a little bit of a drive for us. So my partner's going to come with me. Is that, can he wait in the car or is there a spot he can wait in the clinic? And she's like, is he the dad? And I'm like, yes. She's like, he can come in, just bring him in. I'm like, what? Okay. This is amazing already. So we get to this place and it's this. cute little house. It's like a little house with rooms that have been turned into appointment rooms. And it was just so homely and gorgeous and welcoming. It already felt different. yeah, Ben and I went into the room. We went with Chelsea, my midwife, and she was just so lovely. She's got eight kids. I'm like, okay, this woman knows how to birth. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I was up on the on bed and she said to Ben she's like come over here and she's like feel down here and she was kind of pushing down in my lower pelvis and she's like that's your baby's head right there and I just remember I was looking up at him and I just clicked for me I'm like this is the first time he's actually like really connecting in with his baby like it was wild to me that it took up until that 26 week mark for that to happen. Yeah wow. Just pausing here to thank the August sponsor for the podcast. Mama Goodness is a mom -owned business based in Melbourne, founded by life after birth authors, Jessica Prescott and Vaughn Geary. Mama Goodness' goals are to nourish and nurture moms through motherhood. They create plant -powered, i .e. vegan, organic and naturopathic formulated products to support women through pregnancy, postpartum and beyond. Their lactation cookies are highly rated. There is also a gluten -free option. but they also sell lactation tea and granola. So if you're looking for a tasty treat for yourself or a gift for someone, check out mama goodness online now at www .mammagoodness .com .au. And thanks so much to mama goodness for supporting this month's podcast episodes. Yeah, I think it was just, it was a tough time for everyone for sure. I think dad's really missed out. It was similar and I can remember, I think it was in BB's episode. I'll link the number in the description. But because she, she knew she was having twins and she wanted, I'm pretty sure this is how it went. She wanted like her husband to see like the twins because they were going to be having a free birth and like she wanted him to come in for the scan and they wouldn't like let him come in even for the scan. And so she was having to get the pictures and like show him or something like that. And it's just, mean, I know it was like similar for thousands and thousands of women. Yeah. Wow. Wow. That's so beautiful though. Yeah. It was like a complete 180 experience, like totally different. We actually, felt like he felt seen and he felt connected to baby as well. And it was really nice. Cause I think up until then I hadn't even realized, but it actually felt kind of lonely. was just me doing this thing and trying to relay information back. And yeah, that, that changed it. And so we asked her all of our questions about home birth and is it risky and what happens if this, what happens if that She was so great. She's like, we're not in the business of taking risks. Like we are there to support your birth and we can do that wherever you like, wherever you feel safest. And yeah, I just felt like she, you know, understanding her credentials and that they're able to do everything that a doctor can do is pretty wild. did you have any, or do you remember if you like what your biggest fears were or like? Yeah, I think we just we just said like what if something goes sideways and we need to transfer then what? Because the local hospital here isn't set up for maternity. The next one's Canmore, but they're a low risk hospital. they've got two rooms and they have obstetric gynaecologists that come in, but they're not really a lot of people. If anyone has an issue at Canmore with a birth. they would get transferred to Calgary as well, which is an hour and 15 minutes away. And she kind of said that she's like, look, if you had, there's a lot that they can do in Canmore and it's 15 minutes down the road, we would just transfer. And depending on the need, you'd either go by ambulance or we would drive if it was something that was, you know, not immediately dangerous. So, So that felt good. And just knowing, you know, people that live in cities, you're 15 minutes away from a hospital anyway, or yeah. I just didn't feel like knowing what she could actually do in terms of her skills. I was like, okay, so it's not like I'm just here with a friend holding my hand. Like she's very well qualified. So I felt really comfortable in that, you know, knowing that even if I was to birth in the hospital at Canmore and something went sideways, that we would be transferred by ambulance to the city and it's only 15 minutes difference. So, yeah. With the, so you've got all these doctors and whatnot, and the nurse has given you two big books that you didn't look at or didn't read or whatever. there any particular, you know, I'm sure the midwife was able to support you in like accessing, certain resources and whatnot, but like in this pregnancy with Keira, did you find or use anything that was particularly helpful or especially when, you know, you've obviously spoken with the midwife about these particular concerns, but in things of like the possible things that can go wrong. Like had you done any like looking into that kind of stuff? You know what? No. like I, I look back and I'm like, my God, you knew nothing. And that's okay too. But I really, really didn't. She put, she put me onto some great resources. Like they send you like welcome kit when you first join with the midwifery care and it's beautiful. There's so much nice information in there about home birth, about their type of care and all of the little pieces that go along with it. And so there was some nice stuff in there. And I didn't really know too much about what I didn't know, but I did do a course that a woman here ran and it's got roots in hypnobirthing. So it's very much on the calm birth, like breath work. affirmations visualizations piece. And that really opened my eyes up to physiological birth too. So I was, I didn't have the word for it necessarily, but I was like, Hey, this is something that women do. It's, know, not this scary medical procedure. So that was probably my biggest eye opener and learning piece. I think that was the greatest piece of education I had the first time. And when we got offered the opportunity to have a home birth, that also was something I was like, okay, well, been doing all of this work, I've seen videos through that course of women just birthing beautifully at home. I'm like, why can't I do that? Yeah. think initially, yeah. Initially I had the thought, I was like, you know, maybe we should just birth at the hospital in Kamloor the first time. And then we always wanted to have two. And I was like, you know, maybe the second time we'll do a home birth. But when it was presented this way, I was like, why don't we just try? And if something goes wrong, we'll end up at the hospital, but we could. plan to be at home and maybe that's where we stay. So yeah, I'm really glad we did. so you were working, when did you stop working? So I stopped working two weeks before my due date. and then I felt like I was still rushing around and in like go -go mode for another week, just trying to get everything ready. then. That last week was just so blissful. I just, just so relaxed. was hanging out with my dog. I was going for walks with friends. Like it was really nice. It was a nice time of year too. was March. It was like starting to thaw out here and yeah, I really relaxed into it. So it was a nice, nice like ride into the birth. Do you want to walk us through the birth of Kira then? Yeah. So. Like I said, I was super relaxed. was just having such a nice time, not working and just enjoying the spring and watching things change outside and catching up with friends. And then the day before Kira was due and Ben and I, you know, we always joked about we're going to have a late baby because we're always late to everything. we might, I'm actually surprised I made it into this one time. I mean, it's pretty impressive. We're notorious, our friends always know we're late. at the start when we were first together, I was like, my God, you're always late. But then if he's not late, I'm late. Like it's always one of us. We're just late as a couple. So we're like, okay, this baby's probably going to be like 42 weeks or something. Yeah. So I just thought, okay, I've probably got like a nice few weeks to just relax. But the day before her estimated due date, I caught up with a couple of my girlfriends. The sun was shining. We went for a really long walk just around town and then we were joking. I got a sausage roll with this spicy chutney. I've been like, Ooh, this might just set it off. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm walking home and I just felt so grateful. Like it was such a beautiful day and I got back to the house my God, Elsie, forgot to tell you, we had a roommate at that time. So housing and dance is wild. So did the roommate know you were going to be giving birth at the moment? He did. And he's so nice. was like, he's like this gentle giant. think he was like six foot seven or six foot nine. Huge. He was such a nice dude. And we'd said to him, we're like, look, we're planning to have a home birth. When things get going, would you mind we'll get you a hotel room in town? Would you want to take Marshall our dog with you? Cause there's tons of pet friendly rooms here. And he's like, yeah, no worries. That sounds great. So we're like, okay, that was the plan. We were just going to, when I went into labor, getting a hotel room. But this day, so the day before I went home and then, you know, I was just chilling on the couch waiting for Ben to come home from work, chatting with Andy, our roommate. And then, yeah, I remember Ben got home. We ordered some takeout, this like ramen place here is so good. I was like a really craving ramen. I'm like, please just go get me some. And as I'm sitting there on the couch, I was like, Ooh, I think I've got like Braxton Hicks, like little practice flutters. I'm like, maybe we'll have the baby in a couple of weeks. Like, I mean, of course we're coming up to due. I said, you know, maybe within the week we'll have a baby. And so we were talking about that. And then I was just sitting on the couch. I was this is so cool. Like I hadn't experienced any practice contractions or anything like that before that day. So it was kind of exciting to me. I'm like, I wonder if they'll kind of come and go or what will happen, but they just kind of stayed. And it was just these little flutters that were going on and on. And yeah, it got to like, I think maybe eight o 'clock. And I was like, you know what? I'm going to just go lie down in bed. I can actually feel these and they're cool, but I might just go chill until they go away. So I went up into bed and then I was just laying there and they started to get more and more. So I had this, I don't know if you've got this app back home called Freya. Have you heard of that? yes, but do they, do they make like, Perineum like products and stuff like that. Do they make products or it's just an app? Nah, it's just an app. I think I know the stuff you're talking about though. I think I know that brand, but Freida. Freida. Freida, that's what I'm thinking of. they make a really good peri bottle. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I was like, Perineum something. Yeah, okay. But the app's called Freya. The app's called Freya. And it was like, I think it cost me $3 or something like that. And it had... like those calm birth affirmations, but it would time you. you kind of tap it when you feel a surge coming on and she'll count you through your breathing and say some affirmations. And then you tap it when the surge dissipates. And then there's just like nice music in the background with yeah, nice words. So I was like, throw that thing on and we'll have a look. And then at some point the, the girl was like, if you're going to the hospital now is a great time to think about transferring. And I'm like, what? His app is out to lunch. I'm like, I must be pressing it wrong. I'm like, no way. So I was just, I was just laying in bed and then I can't remember what time my water broke. That was the next thing I noticed. I was like, just kind of cruising through these searches with the app talking to me when I just felt like this release of water. And I was like, my God, Ben, I think my water's just broke. I'm like, can you throw me a towel or something? So he did. And I was like, yeah, I think it is. He's like, my God, should I call the midwife? you know, what do I do? And I'm like, I don't think so. Like she said, she said that, you know, first time births can take a while and she doesn't want to get too excited. So don't call her at the first sign of things or, you know, especially being like quite far away. She didn't want to have to come out to go back, you know, very early. So I was like, no, don't bother her. Like, obviously it's just, it's just starting. But I'm like, I think we'd probably have a baby in the next, you know, day or two then, but. Anyway, we kind of kept going that way. And the frayer app kept telling me, she's like, if you haven't transferred to the hospital, like now I'm like, man, maybe messenger. Ben kept asking, he's like, should I message them? Should I message them? And I had a doula, I forgot to tell you, I wanted a doula. This was actually a big part of my decision to home birth because when I was with that maternity clinic, I said to them, I'm like, look, I've got a doula that I really want to have there. Cause I don't have family here and I really wanted that. womanly support. Ben's amazing. But I just kind of wanted that extra person and I think for him too, like just that reassurance and someone to, yeah, to hold the space for us. And we met this woman, she was amazing in Calgary. And yeah, she was going to be my doula. And they said to me, well, we don't know if you can have your doula or you can, but you can only have one person come with you. And I'm like, so one person on top of my husband, they're like, no. just one person, you can choose your husband or your doula. And I'm like, give me a break. As if I can choose. Yeah. I said to Ben, I'm like, you better brush up on your doula skills though. Cause this was before we'd gotten on with the midwives. And that was really a huge part of why I just kept at them. Cause I'm like, no, I don't want to go into a hospital where the rules were just at that point, it was changing from day to day. Like it wasn't their fault. They were going with the. you know, things that they were being told to do or whatever. don't know, the bigger picture thing, but they said, look, honestly, we can't tell you what will be the deal by the time you go into labor. And I didn't love that idea because we, you know, I had this image of how we wanted to be supported and how we wanted our safe, like our space to be held. yeah, I was being told it was probably not possible at this time. And I think they're even talking, I think at this, in the States at that time, and we're so close here in Canada that you know, women were birthing with masks on and I'm like, my God, I'm fine to wear that like down the street, but to birth, I can't even imagine. It's just, Like disgusting is the first word that comes to mind. I can't believe like some women were made to do that. it's horrible. but that's, that's amazing. I'm really curious though. Where's the housemate? So Has the half -sit got his accommodation yet or is he also being a doula? He had not gotten accommodation at that point. my waters had broken, Ben's like at me like, should I call them yet? Should I call them yet? And I'm like, maybe you could call her. And so he called my midwife and she's like, can I have a listen? And she kind of listened and she's like, you know what? I'll come out. She's like, I'll come out and you guys just kind of do your thing. And I'm like, well, do we want to go talk to Andy and see if he needs a room? So Ben's like, yeah, let me go downstairs and I'll chat with him. And he's like, he comes back up and he's like, he's already in bed. I think he's asleep. And I'm like, well, go and ask him. my gosh. So he goes back down and Andy comes out. He's like, Hey man, I think we're going to have a baby really soon. He's like, do you want us to get you a hotel room? And Andy's like, I just want to go back to sleep. He's like, do you mind? And Ben's like, no, that's fine. So anyway, Andy goes back to his room. Ben's like, Andy's going to stay here. I went, well, that's fine. It doesn't matter to me. So, so I was there in the bedroom and by that time I'd moved onto the exercise ball, like I just found that position so nice. I was just rocking and I didn't give a second thought to the fact that our roommate was there anymore. I think I was starting to move into that whole other trance kind of state. Yeah. so. Yeah, the doula arrived and she was amazing. my God, Elsie, she was doing like counter pressure on my hips and she was, it was, it was actually so good that we had her there because where we live, there's a million and one stairs and there's not much parking outside on the street. And so when the midwife arrived, Ben had to go and help her park, help her bring stuff up 4 million flights of stairs. So he was gone for a lot of it. yet that whole time I had someone there with me just doing counter pressure saying like, she didn't say a lot, but every now and then she would just say just the nicest little words. And I'm like, yeah, I got this. Yeah. Well, that's something that I'd never really like considered about like the benefit of like another support person Yeah. I mean, it always goes like, but if the partner is blowing up the birth pool, like, you they can't be there with you as well. Like in that kind of example. But yeah, if, you have to like go and do something else or go or like, yeah, fix the situation with the dog or other kids or like having someone still there. Wow. Yeah. And we did, we had our dog there. He's our small dog. He was a Rottweiler. He's his big presence in the room and he was so beautiful. He was just like curled up, just watching. He wanted to be kind of close, but not too close. And he just was really attentive. It was really nice to have his energy in the room. But yeah, Ben was also like helping to set up the bed and like just get the room prepared for whatever we might want to do. And so he was helping my midwife, Chelsea, quite a lot with all of that. So yeah, having the door was amazing. Yeah. I remember actually when, so the midwife, the way it works is I went out to visit her in Cochrane for a lot of the prenatals and by a lot, I think there was only one or two before I was actually due anyway. It so close to the end. but the last one that she does, she comes out to the house. So she came out and she had a look at the place and she's like, you've got a bath. Did you want to birth in the bath? And I'm like, can I? I assume I'd birth on the bed. that like, isn't that where people birth? I had no idea. And she's like, you can absolutely birth in the bath if you want. She's like, the water can feel really good for some mummers. And I was like, yeah, that sounds great to me. I love a bath. So that was the plan. So when she arrived, I was just on the ball and yeah, just working with it and really concentrating at that point. It had kind of moved along and this was, so she arrived at 11. No, I called her at 11 o 'clock. Ben called her at 11 o 'clock. By the time she arrived, it was 1230 And she checked, she did, she asked if I wanted to be checked, which at the time I didn't even know that's like a consent option. So her asking, just thought was polite. I didn't know you could say no. I was like, yeah, yeah, no worries. And so she's like, you're at eight centimeters. She's like, I'm glad I didn't wait any longer. And I'm like, okay. Well, I think that's I was right. I was right. should have listened. What would a nap know? Yeah, exactly. so yeah, I kept, I kept on laboring and then she said, do you want to step into the bath? And so they ran the bath for me and they did all the lighting and my God, it was just so nice because I just had the normal lights in the bathroom. I didn't think about doing dim lighting and she was like, Ben, have you got any lamps off? And go get those. And they made it just this beautiful, warm, quiet space and I remember stepping in, well first they said, can you sit on the toilet? Can you try and go to the toilet? And that position, I know it works for some women, but my God, it felt awful. sat on there Is that where you turned around, like facing the back? No, no, she just said, yeah, she just said, can you sit on the toilet? Can you try to go to the toilet before you get in the bath? And I was like, yes. I sat on there and I'm like, my God, it just, the pressure felt like it was in such an awful spot. Yeah. I was like, can I please get off here? She's like, yeah, yeah. She's like, I think the bath's ready. You can hop in. And that sensation of the water is so nice. Did you had? It felt so good. Yeah. As soon as I got in, it just felt like all of those surges just like melted, you know, they were like just part of the water and it didn't feel quite as intense as it had before. And so was really nice, a nice little reset almost. and so I was in bath at maybe, I guess around 2 .30 probably in the morning. So it only been a couple of hours since she'd been there. And then, yeah, at three o 'clock, I felt the urge to kind of push, like it started to change. And she said to me, like, if you want to push, go for it. And I was like, my God, like that change of just like having been in that space where I was like, just relax, just soften, just open. Like that's what I'd been saying to myself for like the last however many hours. then to. have someone give you permission to just push? was like, heck yes. So yeah, yeah, it just felt so instinctual and really nice. It felt productive, I guess. And so yeah, it was around, it was before 3 .30 in the morning. I felt that like pressure and she's like, okay. If you want to try on the next push, I think her head's ready to come through. And I'm like, my God, yeah, I'm ready for the head to come through. so it did. And then she's like, okay, just, just wait. Cause I thought like you birth a baby. It's just like bam, bam, know, like just everything out, get it done. As soon as her head came through, she's like, okay, just wait there. and just take a rest. She's like, we'll just going to give her a little bit of space. And so I was like, okay, I can take a rest. Cause the search had finished. Her head was out and it was more comfortable because obviously it wasn't the full size of the head. And then I was like, my God, I think I can feel her turning. Like I was really surprised. had no idea babies did this. They're so clever. Just to clarify. So you're in your bath. Yeah. How are you positioned? So I was on my back. My bath is just a normal bath. is not a big jet tub. Yeah. Yeah. And I had a tap right next to my head. my God, Elsie. At one point I was like having really intense surges and I had my hand holding onto the tap spout. And I remember thinking, okay, try not to hold onto it too tight. Cause I was like, I don't even know if Ben knows where the mains water shut off is if I pull this off the wall and water's just going to go everywhere. going through my head. my gosh. Superwoman strength. I will break. Yeah, wow. I have heard because I think yeah, there's obviously a very big. Well, I mean, birth pools are amazing. You know, but if you have a bath, I have seen that women say, can I birth in my bath and like some say like, you know, because baths ginormous. Some women can struggle with that. also I've seen midwives explain that it's actually okay to be on your back in a bath because you're still like, you're not, you know, strapped to a bed. You're not like laying like fully flat. You're still moving. Even with the water, still, you know, buoyancy. Like it's still, you know, beneficial to be in your bath. Yeah. Yeah. And mine was kind of, it's nice because mine's not super shallow. It's got enough depth that my belly was kind of calm there and I felt really relaxed in there. you touch her head? I didn't that time. No, I did with my second, but I didn't even, again, there's so much I didn't even know was a thing or an option. So I didn't. I remember just feeling her come out and I remember looking down and saying, my God, she has so much hair. Like I could see this black hair just waving in the water. And then I could feel the rotation of my midwife said, yeah, she's like, she's rotating so that her shoulders are in the perfect position to come out. And I'm like, of course that makes so much sense. But I think you think of the baby as like a passive passenger to some degree. so when you experience that, you're like, wow, they are, they know what they're doing. Like they're just working with it and yeah, lot of respect. right. Yeah. Like how, like it's just. But I don't even have enough words, like the right words or enough words to explain how, like, the, like, just even the fact like that labor, how labor is triggered and like it's such a communication between like the baby and like your body and like working together. And yeah, I think, yeah, we see babies as kind of like these helpless, useless little creatures that you've got to like protect at all costs because otherwise they will perish. Yes. They're very, very, very clever. Like they're, they're built for that. They're built to be birthed to survive this. Generally, generally, Yeah. Most often, like, yeah, the, the rotation, such a weird feeling. So strange. Yeah. I was really surprised. Like, my God, I think she's turning. They're like, yeah, it's great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's, have you heard of Dr. Rachel Reed? Yeah, yeah, she was the coordinator of the program that I did when I was studying midwifery on the Sunshine Coast. she's amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember she described like that whole birth dance as a symphony, like your body and your baby are like this orchestra and the whole process is a symphony. I'm like, after experiencing birth in that way, I was like, that is the perfect description for it. Like you don't need to be doing anything. Like it's all just happening in there. You don't need to get involved. It's like they're talking, you're talking. Yeah. Anyway, I thought that was such a beautiful way to describe it. And I actually think, you you know, you laugh at yourself for, not knowing what you do now, but I think in many ways that's actually pretty helpful because you can overthink all of this. And actually, you know, just to trust that it will be okay, can sometimes be more helpful than being like, my gosh, there's 1000 things could that could happen. And I need to research every thing that could possibly happen. Yeah. Anyway, so her head's come out. She's rotating. What happens then? She's rotating. Then she said to me, you know, it would have been maybe a minute or whatever. I don't know. Time feels so funny. during birth, but it felt like I got a little rest and I could feel her rotating. And she said, you know, whenever you get another surge, if you want to push, the rest of her will just come right out. And I was like, okay, that sounds fabulous. And so, yeah, on the next surge, I just gave like a gentle push and breathe down and she just came right out and my midwife just put her straight on my chest and I couldn't believe it. my God, Elsie, it's You know those moments where you like, it's just, you'll never ever, ever forget. And yeah, I looked at this little baby and I was like, Ben, we did it. I was like, I remember saying to him, welcome home, baby. And I just, couldn't stop looking at her and yeah, I couldn't believe it. She was perfect. Like those little fingers and the hair, she had so much hair Yeah, it was just, it felt so real, you know, like sometimes during pregnancy, it's almost, it almost doesn't feel real some days and to actually see this little human. It's really, really cool. Yeah. And in Canada, is there a rule about how many midwives need to be attending the birth? do they have like a second midwife or what's the deal with So I don't know if it's a rule, but they do have a second midwife and a lot of the midwives pair up. My midwife is a solo midwife. And so what the deal is with, with that particular birth is she called it in. she let one of the other midwives who actually was the owner of the clinic. She let her know that she was heading into a birth and that she would let her know when it was close. so at some point through the labor, she'd let Shiana know to come out and she arrived maybe five minutes after Kira had been born. So no, was The midwife and Ben and I, and my roommate downstairs. did he wake up in any of this? He did not. Wow. There you go. He slept through the whole thing. There's so many people worried about like birthing in apartments and birthing in like, you know, units and stuff and like worried about putting notes on the doors. And I mean, the first time I gave birth, I was also in apartment and it also crossed my mind. Like what if people can hear like. you know, either side, like, you know, in front. but look, you have it here that you can sleep through it. That's, that's amazing. It's so wild. He did sleep through it. And, yeah, we joke about it. We're like, we just called him the sleeping bear after that. We're like, God, how do you just sleep through everything? But he's like, I honestly didn't hear, like it didn't, there wasn't anything that he could hear. One thing was, so we've got like a, it's like an open plan kind of thing. So there's a downstairs, which is where his bedroom is. And then the upstairs is just like an open, like a mezzanine. So the sound could easily have traveled, but yeah, he, he slept throughout, which was super cool. Brilliant. Yeah. And where did you birth the placenta? So I stayed, I was still in the bath and honestly, I was just like bathing in the bliss of this whole experience, like this journey. I was just trying to like integrate it and like loving on this little baby. And then, yeah, I don't know. We get, we got to do that skin to skin for quite a while when my midwife said to me, Hey, you know, it's kind of time to birth a placenta. How about, she's like, can you give a push on your next contraction? And I'm I haven't had a contraction since I birthed her. Like the last contraction was when she came out and that was it. and she's like, Ooh, okay. well, how about we get Ben to go to the bedroom and we can get him to do skin to skin with Kira. And then we can just like work on getting that placenta out. Cause I think it was coming up to, I don't know what the timelines are back home, but here, think they only really allow like 45 to an hour is like an hour is getting onto maximum comfort zone for them. So I think it had been about 40 minutes or so. And she was like, I'm just going to give a gentle tug. And she's like, if you can try, if you're not feeling contractions, she's like, maybe you can just kind of like bear down a little bit like you did in labor. And I was like, okay, I can try. And she said, yeah, just because if, if it doesn't come within the next kind of 10, 15 minutes, we're to have to transfer to the hospital. And I was like, hell. No, I just birthed my baby. She's in the room next door with my husband. Like there is no way I am leaving this house. Like you're going to have to drag me out of here. So I was like, no, we're getting this placenta out. And I think, you know, just kind of, it felt weird to push against nothing, you know, like there didn't feel like any resistance to me after like hours of labor. But. I guess I just kind of mentally focused on that. And she was just giving little tugs just very gently, which I super appreciate because I know it doesn't always it isn't always that way with providers. But she was kind of tugging on the placenta and then it did it came through and yeah, it was just it was easy. She said to me, she's like, don't worry about the placenta. doesn't have bones. Yeah, yeah, so true. So true. I mean, that itself also feels very weird. It's weird. somebody referred to it as like birthing a jellyfish or something. Wow. What an incredible first birth story. Like, magical. It was magic. And I honestly, hadn't even dreamed that it could be that good, which is awesome because I feel like sometimes it's the other way around to have had that experience and to know that it's possible and also to know that it's possible the first time. know, like I said before, I was considering, should we just do a hospital birth just to know that I can birth first? Like, you don't have to, or that showed me that I didn't have to. Like my body knew what to do and I loved it. I honestly loved everything about it. wasn't anything I'd change other than the whole first. I guess it's all just part of the experience, but yeah, just to have the birth in that way was so nice. Yeah. And so when you were planning to have a second baby, home birth was like, not a question. The only option. was like, you would have to drag me into a hospital now. Like there's, can't even imagine what it would have to be to do that. Yeah. And did you... Yeah, I guess. Do you want to walk us through that pregnancy? did you like contact the midwives ASAP this time? Like the second I knew. And actually I just texted, I just texted my midwife and I was like, guess what? but I'd actually had a loss in between. I, we were trying, we kind of wanted, just because, you know, not that I'm old by any means, but we were like, let's keep our kids close together. Let's do the kid thing. And then we can like, you know, move forward with the babes. And so we were trying and we did fall pregnant and then it was still early. I think I was at maybe 10 weeks or so. I was just shy of my first appointment, like prenatal. And yeah, I had a loss I messaged my, was already on with my midwife at that time and she was so beautiful, like really supportive. And she just said some words that really sat well with me about, about loss. And yeah, I felt it's, you know, it's always hard, but, yeah, yeah, we moved forward and then it took a little while. It was funny because Cura happened so quick and we were expecting it to take long. And then I was expecting the second time to just happen like that because the first time did, and it actually took quite a while. So we had the loss and it took a little longer after But I think honestly, the gap between the kids is so perfect. So, know, divine timing, I guess, but we fell pregnant in September of 2022, I think it was. yeah, I've of course reached out straight away and got on with my midwife again and... It was lucky because he's due, he was due in June and she always takes August off and we always joked that we would just have to plan our baby making around her dates to make sure that she's not away. Cause she was so amazing. So yeah, we were super excited to connect with her again. And then we started that prenatal journey with her and it was so nice because I had the full experience from the start this time. Whereas before I was kind of in limbo or having that other stream experience and going into midwifery much later, whereas I had it the whole way through and there were some really marked differences. So like one big thing that stuck into my mind was when it came time to do that gestational diabetes test. my God. I remember the first time with Kira when I had to do that. I'm like, this is the most disgusting thing. Like I would never drink something like this. Why am I doing like, why are you forcing a pregnant woman? So much sugar. Anyway, I'd done it. wasn't even a question, right? Like it was just, okay, yeah, you're booked in. Yeah, go get this test done. Yeah. And then my midwife, when it came to, she's like, okay, so around now is when they often do gestational diabetes testing. She's like, you can do it if you want, but you don't have to. And I'm like, I don't have to. And she's like, no, she's like, you don't really have to do anything, but she's like, it's up to you. And she said, to be honest, the fact that you didn't have it last time and you're in very similar health to the previous time, you know, It's up to you. And also the way that we manage gestational diabetes is basically telling you to have a good diet. And she's like, you already have a good diet. She's like, I really don't. I wouldn't be telling you that you need to go and do this if you didn't want to. And I was like, amazing, because I really didn't enjoy that. And it didn't tell me anything anyway. So I opted out of that. And then even just the number of prenatals, I The first time around I was going, like it felt frequent. I was going quite a lot, which, you know, I think as a first time mom, was comforting, you know, just to have a check -in, but this time around we just kind of, she said, just message me if you've got anything. I'm like, yeah, I don't need to come into Cochrane to, I don't know, get a Doppler on. Everything feels good. I feel great. Baby feels great. It was a really hands off. was, was super nice, but she was there anytime I needed to message her or ask a question. Yeah. And then we did decide to have a prenatal meeting to do the Doppler and whatnot. So we met up by the river in Canmore, like kind of part way and it was so beautiful. She's like, did you choose this dress on purpose? I had a dress with like buttons all the way down the front. So when she went to do the Doppler, she's like, can you just undo two of those buttons? were they were they're in a park right by the river. with people walking by and she's got this little dot on my belly. It was so nice. was yeah. And so it would have been, yeah, coming into like that's got to go through my seasons again. Spring, like that spring sort of time got coming out of winter as well. Yeah. For the birth or? For this pregnancy period. Yeah. So September is coming into winter. And then all like that Christmas period is just like white Christmas and then going into the birth timing. So coming into June is like spring, summer. It's beautiful here. Yeah. So nice timing. I just think like, it's just like, wouldn't get, I mean, maybe, maybe somewhere in the world, but you wouldn't get a doctor coming out to a park to do a Doppler. Yeah. Just, you know, like, like that, woman -centered care. I think just like everyone should have like a family midwife, you know, because even that continuity of, you know, knowing that you've had a loss and knowing what your journey has been and, you know, knowing you in that way, like, you know, you were saying that in your first pregnancy with Kira, like you didn't think that you could really announce it before 12 weeks. Whereas in this experience, you've had someone that's known what your journey has been. And I just think that's beautiful. That's what you need. You don't need every appointment, like a different person meeting you. So you know them, but they know you. like, I don't know about you, but I'm terrible with names and faces. So by the time the next appointment would come around, I would have forgotten the doctor that I would have seen before. Totally. Yeah. This just really speaks to the benefits of continuity. Absolutely. It really does. Like she came out to the the riverside. I had dips and biscuits. She brought her little Doppler. We were just chatting about her kids because, you know, her son's into some things that like we do out here too. And so we were honestly, it was just like two friends catching up talking about our kids. I was telling her about Kira and it was really nice. Like it really is women centered care. It's Yeah, it's family care. feels like you're held. Yeah. And it's so true. Like that first experience I had, I remember looking at like, they would say, okay, let's book you for your next appointment. So you'd pick the day and time and then they send you an email and I'd look at it I'd be like, Dr. Sullivan, was that a guy or a girl? Like who have I met them before? Like it was just so impersonal. And this was the complete opposite. Yeah. So, And with, with, Is baby number two Jai did you say? Yeah, Jai. Jai, with Jai's birth, were you planning to have Keira present? Yeah. So we said, depending on what time he was going to be born, of course, if she was asleep, that's fine. But we had planned for that. And the other thing that I'd planned for was my parents. So obviously during COVID, like no one was coming and going between Australia and Canada. We couldn't visit them. couldn't visit us. They didn't meet Kira in person until she was over one year old, which is so sad. That's their first grand kid. And, know, it was just Skype watching her grow up for the longest time. so when it came to planning the birth of Jai, I thought about it and I asked Ben first and he was cool. So I reached out to my mum and dad and I said, Hey, we're going to have obviously a home birth again. I was wondering if you wanted to be here while that was happening. My mom was like, are you sure we'd love that? And I'm like, yeah, it'd be so great. She's like, we can look after Kira and, know, be out of your way. I'm like, no, no, no. Like you can be there and Kira can be there. Like we, I'm happy for that. and yeah, they were really, they, they were really excited about the idea and they were so supportive. Like even the first time I remember, I was a little bit nervous telling our families that we were going to have a home birth because, you know, it was still so new for us as well. Like questioning it that first time around They had the same questions. I'm like, is that safe? And we just said, yeah, like we think it's the safest place to start. And if it ends up somewhere else, then so be it. But that's our goal. And yeah, they were really supportive the whole way. And after they heard what the experience was like with Kira, they were really excited to be able to hold that space the second time. yeah, I organized to have a doula again. I just really loved that constant care Just even knowing some of those, you know, counter pressure and just things that helped me along the way, just saying the right things at the right time. I really appreciated that. So by that time there's a doula in the valley, whereas before I'd had to go to Calgary to get a doula and she was amazing, but it did take her an hour or so to get out here because of the distance. So to have a doula right around the corner was amazing. so it was planning to have a doula, planning to have my husband. My mom, my dad, my daughter. was looking like a house. By now you've moved on from the housemate. The housemate had moved on. He was so wonderful. Yeah. He'd gone traveling. So he was no longer there. But the week before I was due, my sister and her husband were going to come out and visit because my parents had come all the way from Australia. My sister lives in Vancouver. wow. Yeah. So she, she was like, we'll come across and visit you guys before you have baby and then like leave you to do your thing. Yeah. And I'm like, yeah, no worries. Come over. And then when her and her husband got there, I was joking cause he's a photographer. And I said, if I go into labor, you'll have to take some photos of the birth. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And guess what happened? That none of them made it. that I went into labor early and every single one of them was there. my gosh. What the heck? So it was a busy house because my midwife is laughing at one of appointments. She's like, I just like to have a note of the names of people who are going to be there. So there's you, there's Ben, Kira, your dog. My dog Marshall. Yeah, he was a doggy doler. The doula. Yeah. Your mom, your dad. Yeah. Your sister and her partner. And her husband. Yeah. So there's nine people in total in this situation. There were nine people in my... And did I count the midwife or the second, was there a second midwife as well? Only one midwife. Only one midwife. That's just one. I mean, that's a lot of people. my gosh. What the heck? So with Keira, how many weeks were you? So with Kira, she actually arrived on her due date. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so with Jai... He was five days early. Five days early. So your pregnancy, so you declined the GTT. Yeah. Anything else like in your pregnancy that was different? Like, did you do any different like sort of birth education or...? I did do a refresher on the birth course that I'd done, like the hypnobirthing course. which was amazing because just to refresh on like all the breath work and doing the visualizations and affirmations again, like one thing I did was I did a lot of work on that. So it wasn't like I just did the course and then like tucked it in my pocket. had the posters around, I practiced my breathing. I made Ben walk through those visualizations with me. Like we did the work and I really think that was a huge part of why when I went into labor, it all just, it was there, you know, like I had. that breath work and I had that mindset just from the get go. And so yeah, I did a refresher on that because it had been a hot minute and that was really good. That was all I needed. I didn't need to do the full course again. so yeah, I feel like the one thing though is the amount of times that I practiced with Kira's birth was a lot more than I did with Jai just because having a toddler in the house, it's busy, you know, you don't get time to yourself as much to just Yeah, really get into those things. So I wish I hadn't been able to do that a little bit more, but you know, I think the recall was there and all the information was there. So it definitely carried through into the birth. Yeah. so your sister and her partner rock up. When are they, when are they coming? So they came the weekend before he was due. they were there like, like seven days to due date. And he arrived at like five days before his due date. So they were going to be there for just a couple of days. I think they were meant to leave maybe the next afternoon. I think they ended up staying an extra day. I feel like they were there for another day. And my sister, was so funny. My midwife laughed when I told her, yeah, actually my sister and her husband are coming out like the week before, but they won't be there for the birth. She's like, let me just write their names down in case just so I've got it on my sheet. told her and she's like, has she got kids? And I'm No, she doesn't have kids. She's not interested in kids. And she's like, I don't know. She's like, well, you never know. Maybe she'll watch you birth and just want to do the same thing. I was like, Well, it is addictive. when you, yeah, when you feel that high, it's, yeah. I mean, but you, you work for a company that, does, you know, helicopter. Like maybe it's similar. We know about good times. Yeah. Exactly. Amazing. Do you want to walk us through the birth of Jyland? Yeah. So everyone was here. We as a family are obsessed with Catan. Do you play that game? Yeah. It's so With kids it's very difficult, but yes, I do love Catan. Yeah. We do love a game. So anyway, mum and dad are visiting, my sister and her husband are here. So we've got like the expansion pack. We've got the whole thing going. We've eaten good food. We're playing Catan. It was a really good night. This was, yeah. six days, I guess, before his due date. And so it was late by the time I went to go to bed. It was like 11 o 'clock. Well, I don't know. It's not late for some, guess. It's late for a real pregnant woman. So I remember I went upstairs to brush my teeth and because I was so pregnant, I just wanted to sit down. And so I've got this tiny little stool for Kira to like step up on to get to the toilet. So I went all the way down to the ground to like brush my teeth. And I heard this massive pop and I was like, my God. Did I just like dislocate my baby's arm in there or something? Like, what the hell? Is that even possible? But I was like, don't think about it. Surely they're protected in there. And so I'm sitting down on this stool, waiting the two minutes that my electric toothbrush goes for. And as soon as I stood up, there's just this massive gush of water. I was like, that's what the pop was. It was my water's breaking. I'm like, that is so wild. it wasn't until you stood up that it actually released. That the water came out. Yeah. Yeah. Well, because. That stool is so low. basically like, yeah. Like a proper squat. I think it was all held in there. Yeah. Until I stood up and I was like, right. Okay. So it's my water. so we messaged, I sorted everything out. Went back, went into the bedroom and said to Ben, my water just broke. And he's like, my gosh, how are you doing? And I'm like, well, I'm fine. Like I don't even have a contraction. Like it's just my water broke. Like that's literally all that's happened. he's like, should I message the doula? Should I message the midwife? And I'm like, you know what, let's just message them, message them, tell them that my water broke and everything's cool and I don't have any contractions. so, the doula was like, perfect. I'll keep my phone on standby. And my midwife was like, get some rest and I'll keep an eye out for any messages from you. And so, yeah, I just got all cozy in bed and went to sleep until like 3am. I think I woke up and I had that, those little butterfly things. And I was here we go. Yeah. I was so excited because I'd had such a good experience last time. was just, you know, I was just excited to meet my baby boy and yeah, these contractions had started. Obviously my waters had already broken. And so I just put that app on again and I was like, okay, you just like working through the I'm going to have to check out this app because it's just... I feel like there's a ton that are all the same. Like they're all good. I'm sure. For me was just sounds nice though. Her voice was really relaxing. I I this lady. So yeah, I just kind of chilled in bed, like listening to that and just embracing it honestly as like those waves kind of came in and came through. And I was just almost resting between them. Like obviously they didn't start crazy hard. So it was just like riding that wave up. And then, yeah, I guess it was around five o 'clock in the morning, I felt like, so it only took a couple of hours for it to really get to that stage where I was like, okay, I feel like I'm gonna need to really just concentrate only on this in a minute. So I said to Ben, I think I'm gonna move downstairs because my doula had had a birth pool. And so she was like, I'll give you the birth pool. So she dropped it off like, you know, two weeks before. And so the plan was to head downstairs to the lounge room and we'd have the pool set up down there. So I headed down and I just kind of got cozy on the couch, like just leaning over the back of it felt really good to me. so I was just kind of like in that position for probably the next, I think it was, yeah, the next half hour. And then my doula came and Ben was filling up the tub and she was she just holds such a beautiful space. She does sound baths here in the valley and I always go to them and her voice is like telling you meditations and it's so just hearing her while I was laboring was already just so relaxing. yeah, so I was just staying on the couch a little bit. They were getting the pool set up and then my midwife arrived and she was so sweet. She's just, yeah. I love hearing her voice too, you know, like, like I explained to you, it's just such a, such a friendship and such a beautiful thing that when she walks in the door, it just felt like welcoming another family member in. So she came in and then, yeah, I think it got to maybe around a six -ish. that they're like, do you want to get into the pool? So I moved in there and holy crap, like going from a birth tub to a full size birth pool is like wild. mean, it's luxurious. It was luxurious. It was like I had so much space. I could turn around. Like I could do freestyle in there if I wanted it. And the water was perfect. So again, like as soon as I got in, like, and I know it was so much more submerged this time too, because you know, the depth was different. Yeah, it felt so, so good to me to just like really relax into that. And yeah, I just kept laboring and my parents woke up around six. I think my parents and my sister and a little bit of this is fuzzy to me because I was really kind of in that zone. But my parents got up around then and my daughter had woken up too. So my mom went and got Kira, got her sorted with some breakfast and yeah, it was like six o 'clock. She's coming around, had this little, she's got like a little play kitchen and it's got the little pastry brush. And so she, she was over there and she's brushing my arm with the pastry brush, giving me kisses. And it was so nice, honestly. So sweet. So my little doula daughter. Yeah. And yeah, my mom was like helping Kira the whole time. So was beautiful. I just felt like everyone was so safe and it was so full of love, like that whole room was, yeah, it just felt beautiful. And my sister's husband was taking photos. Yeah. Brilliant. which was really cool. so yeah, then it was getting closer to seven and I think the surges were really getting quite strong. And I remember thinking, actually, I think I said it out loud. I'm like, this feels really friggin awful. Yeah. And I just couldn't get my legs like in a comfortable position. And now I know like his head was like right within my pelvis. And so I couldn't find a comfortable position. Chelsea, my midwife said, like, do you want to reach down and just like feel if you can see, like if you can feel his head close by? She hadn't done a single, I don't think she'd done a single vaginal exam this time around. I think she just watched me and because she'd seen me labor before, I think she was just content to let it unfold and kind of knew where I was at, which was amazing. I really appreciate that. so, yeah, she's like, do you want to feel down there? And I was like, okay. So I did, I felt down. I'm like, my God, I can feel hair and a head. And crazy. So wild. Yeah. So wild. But also that connection, you know, it's like, my God, baby is right. Like my, my son is right here. Like, yeah, it's like your, yeah, like Like in between worlds, it's like, yeah, like I have in my head, like this thing in Harry Potter where they like, like behind the veil, it's like you're touching behind the veil, like a place that no one else gets to experience, but like, like that connection, like, whoa. Yes. That is such a good description because I feel like, you know, that trance state, I don't know how else to describe it. When you're birthing, like when you're fully laboring in that later phase, it feels to me like you're in a trance. You're there, but you're not quite there. Like the outside world just isn't really a factor. And I felt that connection with him, like in that kind of almost spiritual way. It's like, I'm working with baby, like, you know, it's going to be so soon that we're going to be meeting you outside and blah, blah, blah. But to actually feel down, like added physical layer to it where I was like, it kind of like snapped me into here and being like, wow, there's like just so many layers of connection through it when it's just like this physiological birth. So yeah, it's so motivating as well. Cause you're like, my gosh, it's almost done. Like I'm almost about to meet my baby. Like I'm so close now. Yeah. Totally. So that was like my first real indicator, I guess, because I hadn't had any vaginal exams, but Yeah, I was like, wow. Okay. And this baby's got hair too. can feel it. So I said that to her and she's like, yeah, well, you you just do what you feel like you need to do. She's like, if you need to push, you can push. And if you don't feel ready, you don't have to. And I was like, okay. And it felt really good, like shifting in again, like to that primal like power, you know, that, that changed from just like trying to just be soft and open into being able to just roll with the surges. Yeah. To roar. And I did. And actually I remember Kira was over and she was like, like doing a little thing, like playing with my hand. And then I was like, I made like, yeah, like a bit of a roar. And my mom's like, come here Kira. She's like dragging her off to the kitchen. Get her another snack. Yeah. But she was so involved. like I really loved it. She was so loving and also to normalize that for kids is wonderful. should be that well for me, I feel like it should be even I was thinking even for your, you know, previous housemate, whether he ends up having children someday or not, like the simple fact that knowing that home birth is safe, it's can, you know, it's an option. Just simply knowing that. like can send you on like a whole other journey, know, just knowing. like, totally. Yeah. Like I can imagine if his partner said like, I want to have a home birth that he wouldn't be the one saying, that when I slept through the last one. It can't be that bad. It was so funny the next morning. I remember coming out and looking over the balcony and it was like the lion king. like had Kira and it was like a Simba moment. I'm like, Andrew, look what I made. so true. my gosh. Wow. So, so you're roaring and did you feel Jai turn as well? Like when he came out or was it a quicker process or? It was a little bit quicker. And what happened was I was still leaning forward over the side of the pool. So my belly was hanging down, which had felt really good for the whole time. And then his, did his head come through then? Yes. His head. was so close, I could feel it right there. But then as, as I went to push, I just felt like I wanted to be on my back again, which is strange because I know like physiologically, maybe it's not the best, but I did flip over and my midwife said, do you want to birth in that position? And I was like, can I? And she's like, yeah, absolutely. She's like, you just do what you need to do. And I was like, yeah, that's like, that was just instinctual to me to flip. And then he's, yeah. Then he, his head came through. And then one more push and he was out. And I feel like it happened a lot quicker. Like I don't feel like I noticed as much of, there wasn't that long time in between. So I don't know if it was just my body knew what it was doing and just was like, bam, let's get it done. Yeah. But then she, my midwife just like kind of, as he came out, just popped him straight on my chest. And yeah, that moment is incomparable. to have that happen again. I was like, my God, we did it. Yeah. Again. Again. And Ben and Kira were right there behind me, like at my right shoulder. And Kira was looking down. She had her, there's photos of her little hand on my shoulder and she's looking over at Jai and, it was just, I felt so loved and so supported. And there was just like this hushed excitement in the room. And yeah, it beautiful. think everything started to like come back to me in that that moment because you know, you're so in your zone before that. was like, I love this. I just love everything about it. think I'm pretty sure, you know, like we say that like fear and adrenaline isn't isn't so good in labor, but like at the end, like you get a spike of adrenaline to make you be more aware of what's happening so that you can like actually grab your baby. And where is your sister in this picture? So my sister who never wants children. She was amazing actually. She had one job and it was to take care of the placenta because I wanted to do something with it. I didn't know what I wanted to do, but I didn't want it to just be like biohazard. So I actually, I kept curas as well. It was just been in the freezer for ages. So she had an ice cream container that she'd written Jai's name and birthday on it. And yeah, she was there waiting for the placenta. She could put it in her little ice cream tub. yeah, she, she had kind of been looking after Marshall, my dog as well, because it was such a full house. she ended up just taking him down to the basement and they were hanging out down there for quite a bit of it. So she was chilling, but her husband was taking photos It was actually really cool because of the way our house is the lounge room is in that open space. So you can go upstairs and look over the like balcony. And so he got some cool shots from up above. so yeah, it was, there were quite a few people around though, but I didn't really notice any of that because everyone just held the space so nicely. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. And what was, sorry. what was the placenta birth like with Jai? Was there a bit quicker or what happened? Yeah, that was totally different. Like she didn't even say anything. I remember just saying to her, I think the placenta is coming. And yeah, it was probably within 10 minutes. I'd say that was super quick. just, I was busy like a cuddling Jai and just like showing him to Kira. And then, yeah, then I kind of, did feel a contraction that time. was like, I think I can feel it coming. And so yeah, she just feels like perfect. So they got the placenta and I said to her, because the first time What's that injection they give you after is it potosin or vitamin something? Synthetic oxytocin. Yeah. So I think when I had Kira, she gave me that straight after I remember, I remember feeling it and being like, what's she doing? Like I hardly noticed it, but it just was in my memory. And then this time I, she didn't do that. And it hadn't been something that we'd spoken about, but I said to her a little bit later, I'm like, did you give me that injection that you gave me the first time? And she's like, no, I didn't give it to you. I'm like, how come? And she's like, well, there wasn't a drop of blood in there. She's like, so I have no worries about hemorrhage and that's what we give it to you for. So I was like, wow. Okay. So again, I learned something I didn't have looked at before. didn't know about before, which was super cool. So yeah, it was, it was a really easy, like the placenta just did its own thing. think. Yeah. Yeah. my gosh. And like to have everyone there as well. Like, that's, that's amazing. and what like, so mom and dad, what, what was your dad doing? if your mom's looking after Kira, like where's your dad in the picture? I don't know if this is weird, but I'd said to dad, I'm like, would you mind? Cause he also has like a really good camera. not that he's a professional photographer, my sister's husband, but I'm like, hey, I really loved in my first birth, I thought it was weird to take photos or to take video, but my doula had said, did you want a couple of pictures and, did you want me to take video or photo? I'm like, God, no, I could just imagine myself looking like having the worst day of my life and hair. I was like, absolutely not. I don't want to see that. And she's like, you know, some people just love that to look back on and. She's like, I could just take a few if you want it. And I was like, sure, just take a few. I'm like, I can just get rid of them if I don't want them. But when I looked back at them, like they were the most beautiful photos. I'm like, my God, these are moments that I treasure. And I can only remember them from the inside, but to look from the outside, just to like even see my expression, the moment she got put on my chest, like honestly, it made me cry for like months after. like, this is so beautiful. So I said to my dad, I'm like, hey, would love to, know Louie might take some photos if he's here, but if not, could you do that or just take a little bit of video? And so he actually took a little bit of video, like just as, just as I was having Jai. And so it was really cool. Like he was right there. And then as soon as he was born, like my mom and dad were like behind Ben and Kira. And we announced Jai's name. So we'd already decided, my husband and I are so indecisive sometimes that we're like, okay, like trying to choose a restaurant. my God, Elsie, could spend hours. was like, yeah, but what do you feel like? don't know. So we're like, okay, we have to decide this child's name because with Kira, we hadn't chosen her name. It took us three days to decide. We're like in the end, just pick one. We have to pick one to put on the form. So with Jai, we're like, let's choose beforehand. And so we chose Jai Wolfgang, which is my dad's middle name as well. We announced it then that that was his name and my dad had tears and it was just so beautiful. was such a, such a stark contrast to the beginning of my pregnancy journey in 2020, you know, to have felt so alienated to it for it just to be me going into appointments alone without even my husband to having my whole family surrounding me. Like that would never happen in a hospital setting. God, no. Can you imagine like, my goodness, like it would just be a straight up no, you'd have like security like escorting people out. Get these weirdos out of here. But that's so special. It was. Like, yeah, I think that's, yeah, an important thing to consider that you can always delete photos and videos always. Yeah. Once the moment's gone, it's gone. can't. You know, yeah. I'm so grateful to have those. I think the reason I didn't want them was I just, even though I wanted it to be a beautiful birth and I was imagining that it was, I was like, God, I just feel like it'll, you know, surely it won't look great or whatever. And yeah, when I look back at them, I'm like, my God, just get the photos because no matter what you look like, this is the moment you welcomed your child into your arms. Like you'll never forget that. And to see Yeah. In black and white or in a color print is just so beautiful. Especially as they start to get older. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think like get the photos. And I think, you know, as you get older, what, like what a special memory. I just, yeah. I mean, we just got some photos taken for sort of like a bunch of different things. And, know, it's expensive and whatever, but, you know, I think that like, if I make it to 70 or 80 or something, you know, I can just imagine in my chair, like looking at these pictures and, know, my memory might have started to go, but like, I'll have these pictures and just, it's just special. yeah. And even for your kids to see, know, like when we talk about normalizing birth to see a photo of my daughter. meeting my son for the first time all together as a family, you know, not just bringing them home from the hospital. Like for me, that was such a beautiful moment. And we've got that there to show them in the future. Yeah. never, I was never big on photos either. Like I didn't, I don't think I have a single pregnancy photo other than a couple that I took in a crappy mirror during my first pregnancy. And I look back and I'm like, I wish I'd done those. wish I'd done those beautiful pregnancy shots. And I wish I, yeah. Now I can do them with the kids, but I think celebrate that journey, right? Like it's, you know, get to do it too, too many times in your life. So embrace it. It's amazing what our bodies do. Yeah. Like, wow. I'm just so happy for you, you know, from, from how it all started being called geriatric, which is atrocious to having two physiological. births at home, supported by people that you know and that love you and that you love. And wow, it's so beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing them with me and everybody that's listening. Did you have anything that like we missed or that you wanted to say or anything like that? I think, well, for me, like, you know, you don't have have a practice run in a hospital. Because for me, I really thought that maybe I should do that or that would be the right thing, the safe thing to do. But looking at it now, knowing what physiological childbirth is like, you can, think that, you know, if you start in a safe place, the chances of you just staying in that zone and having a beautiful, easy, natural birth is like so much higher than your chance if you did have to do a transfer and you know, like taking you out of your zone and out out of that space where you're laboring can be, you know, a little bit harder. So why not try, you know, if you want to, if you feel like that that's something that's calling to you, it can be a really beautiful experience. And the other thing was my midwife, you know, she knew how to sit on her hands. There's a photo that I have that's really close to when Jai's coming and you can see I'm like really deep in it. And my doula is there with her hands on my shoulder. And my midwife is just sitting there on the couch, sitting back, watching me with a smile on her face. And I'm like, that is amazing. She's not up in my gear. She's not in my face. She was just enjoying, just watching, making sure everything was great and holding that space. And I think, yeah, that's really important. think choosing the right providers for you, whatever makes you feel safe. I know some people don't want anyone around and if that's safe for you, then do And if you want to have providers around you, then make sure that they are aligned and that they respect the space that you have, like truly respect it. because I think that that's how you can stay in that zone and just let it happen as it's meant to happen. Yeah, I a hundred percent agree. I always think about this pitch, this, part of a video, with my birth with Frankie and yeah, like my midwife, she I like obviously I've birthed Frankie and she's going to ask me if I want to tell and you can see her so you can see in the video that she stops herself and she like takes it back and I'm like, I'm sorry. I'm so glad because yeah, that. Like, you know, health, health professionals I know as a nurse, but we want to be helpful and like we feel like if we're being helpful, we have to be doing something. actually in maternity care. learning how to do nothing and just sit in a space is like one of the most important things. I absolutely agree. I love that. That's so sweet. It must've just been so automatic for her to like, it's just something they do. Yeah. can totally see in the video that she goes to, yeah. Yeah. I love that. but thank you so, so much. And all the way from Canada. What time is it there now? it's getting to quarter to ten at night. Yeah, I'm so grateful. Well, we'll leave it there. Thank you so much. Thank you.