Midwife chooses homebirth + bleeding in pregnancy, impact of midwife burnout & trauma || Emma's birth of August at home (South Australia)

Today in episode 46, we hear from Emma in South Australia who is a midwife, nurse, and lactation consultant. She shares her 2 hospital births and homebirth story intertwined with stories of her life as a midwife, including her journey of unlearning and relearning about physiological birth, challenges with breastfeeding, bleeding during pregnancy, falling in love with your newborn, and the impact of birth related trauma from her work as a midwife. 

Connect with me, Elsie, the host :)

www.birthingathome.com.au

@birthingathome_apodcast

birthingathome.apodcast@gmail.com

Resouces in this episode: 

• Hypnobubs Course https://www.hypnobubs.com/
• Pre-labour rupture of membranes https://midwifethinking.com/2017/01/11/pre-labour-rupture-of-membranes-impatience-and-risk/
• Sebchorionic haemtoma - some info can be found here https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK559017/
• Janice having a baby on 'Friends' LOL https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hrul9EqJ7uY
• Breast Abcess info https://www.breastfeeding.asn.au/resources/breast-abscess
• Great Birth Rebellion Ep on Preparing for a Homebirth https://www.melaniethemidwife.com/podcasts/the-great-birth-rebellion/episodes/2148221037

Chapters

• 2:55 Emma's Pathway into Midwifery
• 9:40 Birth with Oscar
• 18:12 Birth with Hugo
• 30:41 Challenges with breastfeeding
• 47:09 Subchorionic Haematoma
• 1:09:49 Burnout and PTSD as a Midwife
• 1:16:00 Birth of August at home

Transcript

0:03

Hi everyone, welcome to Birthing at Home, a podcast. I'm Elsie, your host. I'm a home birth mom of two little boys. I'm a mental health nurse, the co -creator of Home Birth Victoria, and I'm a Melbourne based doula. If you want to learn more about me, the podcast, or my work, check out www.birthingathome .com .au. And before we begin today, I would like to acknowledge the Wurundjeri people who are the traditional custodians of the land I'm recording on in Nam. Melbourne, Australia. I would also like to acknowledge the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people have been birthing at home on country for tens of thousands of years prior to the British invasion and acknowledge that sovereignty has never been ceded. In episode 46, we hear from Emma in South Australia, who is a midwife, nurse and lactation consultant. She shares her two hospital births and home birth story intertwined with stories of her life as a midwife. including her journey of unlearning and relearning about physiological birth, challenges with breastfeeding, bleeding during pregnancy, falling in love with your newborn and the impact of birth related trauma from her work as a midwife. I hope you enjoy this chat as much as I did. Welcome Emma to Birthing at Home, a podcast. Thank you for joining me today, Emma. We were just catching up. You're in South Australia, yeah? Yes, I am in South Australia, rural South Australia, little town. Yeah, awesome. Before we like get into it, do want to give a bit of a background to who you are, who's in your family and that kind of thing? Sure. So I'm Emma. I am a mother to three boys, so boy club. So I've got Oscar, who's nearly seven, Hugo, who's three and a half and Little's member is August, we're calling him Orgy. He's three months old. I'm wife to Adam. Yeah, and I have a background in nursing. I'm a midwife as well, IBCLC. And we live in a little rural town in South Australia in the mid north. So sort of like, yeah, in the middle of South Australia. And yeah, sort of me in a nutshell. Yeah, amazing. I feel like I have so many questions. But maybe like, so for the listeners, both Oscar and Hugo were born in a hospital, but August or Augie was born at home. But I guess before we go into that, Emma, because you're a nurse, and midwife. What was your like pathway into that journey? Like did you study nursing and midwifery at the same time? Or did you do post -grad in mid or what? How did that happen? Yes. I was thinking a bit about this today. And I think sort of like those early high school years, I knew that's where I was sort of headed. I have an auntie that is a nurse midwife as well. very close to her and I think she started to rub off a bit on me as well as my mum used to be a ABA breastfeeding counselor. So like, I don't know, sort of had like breastfeeding women sort of in yeah, birthing women like in my head. But when I finished your trial, not heaps academic, I got the grades for nursing, which are quite low, but not quite for midwifery, but I thought, not a bad thing doing nursing first. Like, let's just jump on this and see where it sort of goes. might, you know, like another area and stick at that. But it was probably like six months into nursing. I remember seeing the midwifery students like on campus and I just remember being like, no, I want to be like you. I want to be in that. actually. But I guess knowing I always wanted to return back home, I liked the rural setting. I thought, you know, it's probably handy having both. So let's just keep going on with this. So I finished my nursing, but I returned back living in the country. I only lived in the city like in Adelaide for two years. And in that third year, I came back home and worked as a carer. because A, I missed home so much. I really liked going away for about two days and then I love coming home. And I could then get work. Nursing didn't have very many contact hours. So I just would go down for two days a year and come back. But I just knew I had this like sort of passion burning within me that nursing probably wasn't forever. So yeah, in my grad year, I did a local nursing graduate locally as well. But I started my midwifery straight away. Yeah, and so I did it externally, mainly did all my placements locally, which was really great at the time because there was mid group practice as well as core midwives as well. So I sort of got a bit of both. But once again, I was like, that MGP that I want to be in that club. yeah. So I sort of knew where I wanted to go. pretty quickly. And at that time, having sort of two models of care was very clear to me what one was, you know, the more woman centred one and where I sort of wanted to be wanted to be. So yeah, it did me straight away. And soon as I sort of could jump ship, I did. Yeah, yeah. I only went to town for when I say town, mean, Adelaide for a couple of years, months like nursery, which I really Yeah. didn't enjoy because I just hate mothers and babies being separated. and yeah, so just did what I had to do. Jumped those hoops to then be able to return home. Yeah. Work back locally. Yeah. Yeah. And so, especially because you came into the sort of midwifery world via nursing, did you have like, did, did you know about home birth? Did you have any particular ideas or thoughts about people that birth at home, women that birth at home or? Super good question. Probably when I do think about it, I probably didn't know a hell of a lot about it initially. and I probably thought like, how messy, why birth at home? and is that safe? You know, like this was more so when I'm more that nursing grain. yeah. And even like in the early days of mid study, like it just wasn't, I hadn't seen, well, to be honest, I have not seen a home birth until my own, like an actual being there in person. Yeah. But it just isn't, it wasn't an option at that time. So I never really saw a home birth, well, I never saw a home birth in my training because yeah, it just sort of wasn't an option. And I knew people did it, but it wasn't something that I thought maybe was for me. So it has sort of been this whole process of, of learning, I guess, and especially unlearning. And that's, that was the key in midwifery of is, you know, you come from nursing this like medical model, sick people, then you jump ship to midwifery. And it's like, well, the large majority of women are well women just doing something that you we've been doing for thousands of years. So stop touching and just sit on your hands. So It was that I'm so fortunate throughout my training that I had some really great mentors and some really great midwives that were great at sitting on their hands and just being very women centered. Yeah, that's how I got here. Yeah. And so when became pregnant with Oscar. It was sort of like a no brainer. I'm going to birth in the hospital. Yeah, wasn't an option. I don't know. You probably do know, but SA doesn't have lots of private practicing midwives. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so the ones that were practicing, they were really only ablated. So in the city, and it wasn't really an option. My midwife, who was caring for me at the time, had a home birth with her. second, second baby. Yeah, well, she was living in Adelaide at the time. So I had her so she was very pro home birth and you know, yeah, sort of thing. And I had another midwife colleague that was the same but yeah, so the midwife caring for me with my first pregnancy was definitely the right fit for me. She knew that I wanted to be left alone. But once again, I probably had a sense of fear of staying at home. sure. Yeah. probably didn't trust myself, trust the process enough, even though I had been midwife for only nine months at the time, but yeah, I was pregnant in my grad year. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, was sort of a no -brainy to go to hospital. Yep. And I guess, the pathway to private midwifery was that had an understanding of like the benefits of that sort of continuity of care. Yeah. And I probably, I mean this little privilege bubble I would probably say in the area I'm in is now only is midwifery group practice that is offered. Yeah, well. There's no core midwifery or obstetric-lead midwifery here. It's public hospitals. Yeah, well. yeah, definitely very lucky. So all women, it's our all risk model, but obviously women that do, sorry, people can't see me doing this, but high risk. Unfortunately, they might have to birth away, but at least they still have as many appointments, antenatal leave with their name to midwife and then if they go away and birth, they come home to their name to midwife again. So there still is some continuity. Obviously having to birth away if that's what they choose want to do. Yeah. how far away from Adelaide are you? Just over 200 kilometres. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yes. That's tough. It's tough, especially for those women. And I think I personally hate having to ever have to be a part of it, transferring of care or knowing they're going to birth away and potentially become a number Yeah. To a big institution sort of thing. just, yeah, I guess that's when you have really robust conversations with them and try and empower them as much as possible, but it's really hard. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. But that's, yeah, very cool that, you know, I don't know how many areas would offer that, you know, midwifery care just as like, well, that's thing that's available. like, you have no choice. You like have middle free care or you don't have middle free care, you know? Yeah, cool. And so what was your pregnancy like with Oscar then? I was really fortunate enough to be well. Like no morning sickness, nothing. And it was one of those planned, unplanned pregnancies. It was like, let's have lots of unprotected sex. I'd say where this leads. And see what happens. shock horror got pregnant pretty quickly. But you do have that fear and or regret in terms of being on contraception for so long. So you're just sort of like, well, what if I am that person that takes three, four years to get pregnant or I'm on this IBF journey and it was all the pill or, you know, stuffing with my hormones. Yeah. But I remember my mom saying to me, you come from a long line of breeding women. That is not going to be. A breeding women. That's brilliant. Not going to be an issue. And I'm like, you don't know that. it might be. Yeah. And yeah, so we got pregnant pretty quick. I was super well, super textbook boring, which is great in midwifery land or obstetric land, midwifery land. Yeah, like just super boring. I am I we didn't know his gender. We Yeah, we're super excited. We lived in a little cottage at the time. And in terms of, you know, tests, I did a lot of the standard stuff, but I didn't want to. And my midwife certainly gave me like, the information to make an informed decision. But I think I still had an element of good girl with I needed to sort of say yes, please the doctors who were part of my care. there was yet to. But I remember, particularly with the OGTT, I just did not want to do it. I didn't do it right. I did it on an early shift when I was working and made another nurse take my blood in between. And you mentioned me still, and here I was like, you know, going off and, that's how much I just didn't want to do it. that's so funny. They wouldn't even let me walk to the car park. Like, I mean, I did anyway, but when I had it done, I was like, I got to go move my car. They're like, you're not allowed to move. Here you are just like, as you were. Exactly, like I'm doing this, like I don't care if the readings are wrong. So I did it. It was fine. To be honest, it's not the best test going around, but it's essentially the only one that's around. But I was like, my fasting is fine. I'm fine. And yeah, it was fine. And same with GBS. I did swap, but I didn't want to. And I think largely that was fear. What if I'm that tiny, tiny, tiny percentage that Yeah, well, not not has GPS, but has a baby but yeah, the GPS and gets sick and gets flown out. you know, just a lot of that fear mongering, I guess, talk and was going around my brain and what people think. And so I did this swab and it came back not detected. So not to worry. But I remember being really nervous waiting for that. Yeah, so super boring pregnancy. Yeah. Yeah. And so did you know the midwives at the hospital? Like were they your colleagues or? Yeah, so I birthed, at the time the MGP was only a two across two hospitals. It's now five. But it was between two. So one's a bigger regional hospital. But I was birthing at the smaller site, sort of 20 kilometres away. And where I was actually born as well, funny enough. And so it was still only MGP like that. I knew my midwife, I knew there was some old ex midwives who were working the floor as nurses. And but that's also what made this hospital so special was there was a lot of RNs. It's also a baby friendly hospital like your BFHI. So sort of like this little Like I said, privilege. yeah. Yeah. it's like your only option. it's like, it's not so bad. Yeah. yeah. Yeah. So I knew, yes, the midwives were my colleagues, and all friends. I knew all of them, knew them, knew their families. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. I guess like that, you know, probably makes a bit of a difference. Like it could, you go either way, I suppose, like in terms of labor and birth, like having, like you're not going into a foreign kind of environment where everyone is unfamiliar and all of the places and areas are unfamiliar. Like if you've been there and you know what's what, then yeah, I think that gives you a bit of an edge. Yeah. And I love that. And I obviously am a small town. person and I love that. like walking down the street being like, that's Emma, that's so -and -so's daughter. That's, you know, -and -so's granddaughter. that sense of origin. yeah, I like that. some people have that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, I didn't, I didn't mind being in a hospital. I knew people, if that makes sense. If anything, I found that safe. Yeah, the time. So yeah, so yeah, cool. his birth, he, I was really happy to stay pregnant. And I know that sounds silly, but as much as I always wanted to be a mom, like, you know, I was one of those crazy little girls that used to just be like, can I hold your baby? And now I think about, how, how dare I do that? And then go up to them and like, I your baby? Now I'm a mom, like, I don't want anyone to hold my baby. Um, but yeah, I always wanted to be a mom. I think I remember my mom saying my 21st speech and then, um, how I used to breastfeed my dolls and things like that. So I think it's fun. Oh, that's so sweet. You know, the day I went into labor with Oscar, so, um, my waters broke, I was 39 and five. Um, and my waters broke at three in the afternoon and my midwife and my student midwife who's on a microchip. was coming anyway, the afternoon proof and 13, I don't know if it was my 39 or 40 weeks or whatever, irrelevant, but that you're coming anyway. And I rang them at, I rang my midwife and was like, Oh, I've shrunk. I'll see you in like an hour or whatever. And my first thought was I'm not ready. Yeah. So your, so your waters broke before labor sort I was on the couch with my grandma and her best friend and I stood up to say, you soon. And as I stood up, I just knew straight away that I wasn't weeing myself. And I said to my mom, said to her, my waters have just broke. And her friend was like, quick, we got to go. And then I walked to the bathroom and mama followed me and she followed me to the bathroom. Here I am, sniffing my undies. yeah, that's fluid. Then she's telling me off to the bathroom so cold she goes, you can't bring a baby back to this bathroom. It's too cold. Cause was like the middle of winter. Shut up, mama. be gone. That's so funny. They're always worried about the cold and like, And so they left and my midwife and student midwife came and at that time, yeah, I'd had no tightening or waves or contractions or whatever you want to refer to it as. they sort of came and checked me over in terms of just fetal heart and blood pressure, like just your routine stuff. And, know, my midwife left and she said, just call me when you need me. And then an hour later, just started to have like a couple of cramps was like hanging out washing near the fire like on the clothes horse. And I was like, that was a bit party. And, you know, that how could this be You know, I've seen them and give birth. couldn't do this. I couldn't possibly do. And then I exercise and I like, man, these are a lot. This is hard. And my mother -in quickly popped in because I said to my husband, who had not long got home from work, said, get your mum to get you like lollies, bars, snacks. Because for some reason we haven't packed them. But I was like, you're probably in for a long night, so just have some snacks. Yeah. she dropped them off and i remember saying to her these are really bad and she was like yeah well you wait it's gonna get worse and i was like wicked And I had done a bit hypnobirthing, but very loosely, like I borrowed a friend's login, because once again, had a sense of like, ignorance, arrogance, how hard could this be? Yeah, prepared that great. And I reckon like an hour and a half later, Adam was reading my midwife going, Can you come check in? It's a lot. And I'd maybe been in the shower, I think. And she met me at home and I think I asked for a bit like a cervical assessment. Yeah. Because I just wanted to know. And I think she was even like, I don't think we need to do one. Like, you know, you don't really need one. And I was like, hey, no, I do. Because if this, if I'm like one set of it. Yeah. And this is how I feel. I've got a long, long way. Very intense. And so she did this assessment, which was awful. You know, it's always great to be very humbling being back on that side of the fence. On the other side. It was my first cervical assessment and it was nasty. And she was being kind. And I think, yeah, she was like, you're like eight centimetres, you know, so we had contractions for like an hour and a half. And that's where I was. And so I was like, well, maybe we should go. to the hospital because it never was in my mind to stay. Went to the hospital, hopped in the shower straight away, new water was the place I needed to be standing up. My birth plan was don't touch me unless I'm dying. And my midwife was super respectful and all about that as well. I think I even declined blood pressures. It's like my blood pressure has been fine throughout my whole pregnancy. I'm not about to develop preeclampsia in the next two hours. Um, yeah, yeah. And yeah, let's just see where this goes. But I remember we were only like 800 meters from the hospital in that cottage where we lived. And it was the worst 800 meters of my life. Um, and stupidly sat in the front, put the seatbelt on like, so I remember the second labor, I was like, I ain't doing that. I'm in the back of all fours. Yeah. Worst ride ever. And really felt like I was dying. And in hindsight, I was probably really scared. And I also was midwifing myself quite a lot. And I remember being in the shower. And I also didn't want to be in Labour Ward. That was my birth plan as well. I didn't want to be in the, I say Labour Ward, but it was a labour room. I think whether I associate like, that's where I worked, that was my workspace. So I didn't want to be there. I wanted to be in a side room. So that's where we went. sure was in a shower. And I just you know, had the shakes was clicking out Adam, you know, get me a bin I'm going to spew. All those classic transitional things felt completely out of control. And went and sat in the toilet because I was like, I knew I was gonna start pushing soon. And I was like, you don't want to push with a full bladder, like make sure you empty your bladder like stupid. Just thinking I did I needed to stop thinking. And I remember standing up from the toilet and just being you know, that noise that you do when you push and it's like vomiting, you know, you're just cast. And then being like, my god, I'm pushing. But my, my body hasn't told my brain like, my you haven't body you haven't you're not talking to me. Communicate better. Yeah. Yeah. And then pushing like and just fighting the whole process. Yeah. And Like honestly, I think I pushed for like 10 -15 minutes and Oscar was at Earthside and I felt shell shocked. I had him then up on my chest. I was like in this toilet cubicle with Adam, my midwife, my student midwife and Adam's sister was there taking some photos. And also I remember when I stood up and obviously his head was coming out and I remember my midwife saying, what can you see? And I thought she was talking to me, but she was talking to Adam. I said to her, I know. And I was like, she could, but she wasn't actually talking to me. The wall? Like, the floor? She was such a tight space that she just, I guess, wanted to know what way he was going to maybe rest her chin, turn or whatever. yeah, yeah, yeah. So I remember swearing at her like, shut up. And yeah, but it doesn't matter, he shot out anyway. I, and you know, I brought him up on my chest and I just remember being was my was my blood loss like and you know, looking at the floor and wow, you're not earning as well. And yeah, I'm just like, my god, I'm so torn so bad because I did not breathe through a single thing. And I remember thinking as well. When people tell women to just breathe through it, just hatch like, I remember thinking, why I could have done that? Like, my body just expelled this baby without consulting me. And I remember still coming back to me. My poor, like our poor grandmother's generation and your people that still are, you know, put up in stirrups told, don't push until the doctor comes. You know, yeah, it's ridiculous things because I, I just remember thinking there is no way I could stop this sensation. just thinking those poor women. Yeah. Because that was a lot. But yeah, I continued to of midwife myself through it and that was probably a rookie mistake because I needed to just let go. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, we just laid on the floor and I'm on mattress and I just got to know him. But, you know, I wasn't in love with him. You know, I loved him and I remember feeling these like... deep maternal instinct, like I didn't want him to cry. I didn't want anyone to sort of hold him or upset him. I wanted him to be right here, I didn't love him. Sorry, in love with him. loved him. Yeah. it wasn't until around maybe about two, three months, like, and I was like, my God, I love you. Yeah. Yeah. probably the feelings of that labor birth. And then we also had some complex breastfeeding. issues. So probably had you already done your LC kind of stuff yet? No, no, no. Okay. No. Yeah. But we ended up with a tongue tie and the local IBC or C she was away in Japan. How rude. was like, I'll wait for her to get home. But I just had this excruciating nipple pain every time he fed like nipples advice. was horrendous. And like the midwives knew a lot, but they also didn't know what was going on because it wasn't positioning and attachment. wasn't a classic anterior tongue tie. There was more to this. it wasn't until like three week mark that I finally got up the energy to be like, I've just got to drive to Adelaide and I have to see an RBC or C2L. I'd be hours away. And that was the best thing I ever did because she was like, he's got a, know, posterior tongue tie. He's got a high palate, like just labeled all these things straight away. It's like, you wonder you're having a typical time. And I just felt so validated that I wasn't going crazy because breastfeeding was really important to me. You know, my mom had breastfed me for quite some time, think until I was nearly three. Yeah, it was just really important to me. And when it wasn't coming as naturally or mothering wasn't coming as naturally as I expected it to, I just felt like that reality and expectation was just so skew if. so yeah, he ended up having that laser a couple of days later and in the time I had my stylus and I was pumping and finger feeding. But you know what, got through it and I'm so glad I had to experience that because it just defends your knowledge and your empathy, but it's not fun at the time. no, no. so from when you first had contractions. to when Oscar was born. How many hours was that? Three and a half. Yeah. Holy moly. for a first? Yeah. Yeah. If anything I was disappointed I had my waters had broke first because I was like dang I'm on that bit of a timeline now. You know, please let this not be like, you know, and you as a student midwife as well, like you've seen those not so good. labours and births come out of fiddling meddling with someone that has Trump. you know, someone who has, you know, some labours on and off labour, you know, and I just thought, yeah. Like, my mum was in Adelaide, I actually rang her and said, like, my waters are broken. And she's like, come back from Adelaide because she was seeing her sister. And I was like, no, don't rush back. I said, this will be in the morning. I'll be in the morning or tomorrow. So you can just imagine her surprise when I rang her at like 8 .30pm. She's like, haven't had that baby have you? And I was like, yup. Yup. And yeah, sorry, I said don't drive back now, come back in the morning. But yeah, in terms of breastfeeding pain, like it was within, it was instant, like the first latch. I was like, oh, that didn't feel great. I know positional attachment, so let's try again. But I can buy like the night shift starting, you know, come 9pm I was asking for a syringe so I could hand express and finger feed him because it was already Yeah, agony. That's the other way to put it. Agony. You just start to think it's in your head as well. Like, maybe, you know, it'll get better. But no, didn't. And it wasn't the start of the feed. It was the whole feed. Yeah. gosh. I didn't like Frankie, Norm Murphy had like tongue ties or anything, but I just, yeah, my nipples remember the pain, the agony of, you know, that whole, those learning experiences. and so how old did you say Hugo is? Well, Oscar's seven next month and Hugo's three and half. So I sort of have like three and a half gaps. I feel I need the gap. I admire. that just go bang, bang, bang. Yeah. But that's too hard for me. I have high sleep and my children seem to have low sleep. Yeah. Look, I would accept it happily if it happened, but I'd also be like, gosh, I'm in for a time. Yeah. Now we're going to survive. And so like after you know, the pregnancy and quick labor, birth, including like, you know, the breastfeeding postpartum journey with Oscar. Did you have anything in mind that you wanted to do differently with Hugo, especially because some, some moms find home birth after they've had a very quick labor, because then they're like, well, it went fine. It was quick. I may as well do it at home. Did that thought ever like cross your mind or you were still very much, let's go to hospital. So, I had the same midwife again, a good old continuity. And, and we did float around the idea of accidental hi -versus, you know, yeah. Wow. And we actually did have that discussion with the GP ops. Like if I actually do stay home in quotation, like. accidentally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Would you just come see me at home sort of thing? And she was like, yeah, for you, I'll just come see you at home basically after birth, like, about transferring back into hospital. we'd sort of tossed around it being a bit... whatty, for whatever sense. yeah, yeah. But I think that was still an element in me like, need to go to hospital because that's the safest place. Or also a sense of guilt of we do have a good little birthing facility? Do I think I'm above that? Like maybe started to have thoughts of okay, well, I don't not want a home birth, but I don't really want a home birth just yet. But yeah, once again, what will people think? Yeah, yeah. So I would say I found in conclusion, Oscar's birth traumatic in a sense, but then a sense guilt around that because it was this wonderful physiological birth that was completely untouched. had a physiological third stage. I didn't tear. It was so, so boring. But why did I not love it? Why did I not be in love with my baby? What was that about? So I had a sense of guilt around that as well. So at least when I planned conception with Hugo, We're like, yep, ready to go again. It had become just an enough memory. had consolidated some of my midwifery skills that I wanted to do as well because we had gone to a five site MGP. I wanted to be a part of the MGP. So I put my career first for a bit and did that. But when the time came that we wanted to, you know, increase the family, and was that I need to do hypnobirthing and I need to do it properly. I need to apply myself. And I need to let go. So I dug deeper. I worked on myself a bit harder. I acknowledged that I'd like to be in control, but I need to let go, you know, nature and my body have got this. Just need to surrender. So I actually did it was started COVID. So we actually did a hypnobirthing course with a private midwife from Adelaide and we did it via Zoom. that was the HypnoBubs Australian course. yeah, once I felt like I had a good understanding of the physiology, but needed to really use the tracks, use the meditation. And that is what I did. So from 30 weeks with Hugo, I would do like affirmations one day. And then the surge of the sea, the one of the tracks. Literally every day I was doing something. getting in the best mind space to just accept what will be will be. yeah, yeah, so that was pick COVID. And that was also the other thing was like, stay home because I think that's also COVID. wasn't great for many things, but there are some positive things that came out of it. And I would say it propelled home birth. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And women really wanting that continuity of care and not to be separated. Like who wants to be separated from their loved ones, their partner, their baby or whatever. Yeah. So, yeah, so that's probably why we joked about it a bit more as well. So my eldest is for Murphy and so he was born in April, 2020 and I had already planned to have a home birth. And so I was thinking, well, aren't I one of the smart ones because you guys don't want to go to the hospital, but I'm already at home. But then the fear actually became because the midwifery. business group, whatever you want to call it, that I was going through like part of their policy, even though they weren't attached to the hospital, like part of their thing was that they couldn't support you at home past 42 weeks. And so then, you know, as it became in that 41 weeks, I was like, Oh my God, even though I've planned this hospital, this home What if I wind up still having to go to hospital because like I go over and that was just, yeah, that was such a big fear of mine, especially because, know, at that time, of course, they were saying all kinds of crazy things about like one support person or like their partner can only be there for this amount of time. And yeah, like I've heard some really horrible stories about babies being like taken away from moms and then especially one has COVID. It was just such a messy time. yeah. Yeah. The mother baby died just should never be separated, let alone like women not having their support people like that was just crazy. also just the reflection of like the health system not understanding having no concept of women. No, no, they just don't get it. Nope, nope, nope. Yeah. So, you know, there's people making these rules. yeah, like even, you know, at that time I think of like women that had elective sections or emergency caesareans or whatever and partners having to be sent home. Like we have this benefit in the country where partners always stay in like they never get sent home. Whereas that's definitely not the case in tertiary or hospital. Sorry, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Even if a woman had a normal vaginal birth, the partner gets sent home like to me that's insane. yeah. I cannot imagine. And you know, like thinking back to, you know, student midwife life, like you'd be on, they have like a placement on the postpartum ward and you would be going in and doing those OBS like every X amount of hours and you'd be like waking them up. You'd be like waking the baby up and they were alone and they'd be, you know. Like for the most part, most of the hospitals that I did placements in, like there would be multiple women in one room and they'd just be separated by curtains and like, you know. What are we in, 1940? Like, right? It was just, it felt horrible. And now having had two home births, I'm like, oh my God. I mean, like I chose to home birth. So that that, like, I didn't have to have that experience, you know, because like, you know, if you have private health, like in the city, like, presumably, I hope you can get like a private room, but like that doesn't always guarantee the partner can stay for X amount of time, like unlimited amounts of time either. it's just, it's crazy. Yeah. But that's great that you get away with that in rural South Australia. know, just to pull out every room, it's not that hard. It doesn't cost that much guys. And the impact. Yeah, but like the the impact, the positive impact that they would potentially save money down the line from like a mum feeling supported, not alone in like the biggest transition period, arguably like in her life. Like. You know, but I mean, that's not how the people that make decisions think they. think about like here and now what's it going to cost me like right here, right now. Anyway, that's like a whole other, a whole other thing. Sorry, we kind of like tangented a little bit there. It reduces the amount that the nurses on the floor need to do, because if you've got a partner or a husband or whoever in the room, can, it's less times the bill gets called because the woman can, the partner can help, know, help with nappies, help with. Whatever, you know, 100%. Yeah. Anyway, that's a whole other podcast. That's a whole other podcast. Yeah. Just pausing here to thank the July sponsor, Bimpy and Roy. They describe their products as versatile intimates that adapt to your everyday, but they are also the unofficial outfit of labor and birth for women across Australia. Was anyone else counting their appearance in the Born at Home film? In my first labour in birth, I unexpectedly found myself completely naked, which is fine, but when planning my labour in birth for Frankie, I knew Bimby and Roy would be my outfit. They are perfect for the sweat and water that labour so often involves, and because of their ability to dry quickly, you can wear them comfortably no matter where you labouring. You can check out all of their beautiful designs yourself at bimbyandroy .com .au. Enjoy! Um, yeah, so with Hugo, I knew I needed to put in a bit of effort, um, and look on myself and that certainly, certainly helped. So yeah, I will, I say will pregnancy again, but this time, no, definitely had nausea, not vomiting, but definitely had terrible nausea right up to about 18 weeks, which yeah, I didn't have with Oscar. So that was, um, once again, good to experience humbling being on the other side of the fence. just to really understand that all day nausea that many women have. I also had a sub -chorionic hematoma with Hugo, so we were out camping at 12 weeks. It was actually a general on weekends, four years ago, last weekend. I got up, it was in 10am -ish, I got up and had this shooting cervical pain. I remember being like, oh, that's weird. I hope that's not pink. know, 12 weeks today, like, we should be well, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then think a minutes later, I had this real like stabbing cervical pain. And I was like, Oh, and had a little bit of clear loss. And I rang my midwife straight away. And yeah, crime already. I was like, I had some clear loss. I'm having this pain. I think she happened to be around the hospital at the time, which was near the GP obstetrician who she was around at the time. And they just said, come in. And yeah, not time. I went to go change my nickers in the camper. I then had a big gush of blood and it was just like down my legs. was quite a lot of blood. And I remember all poor Oscar coming as well. And I was just like crying, like inconsolably crying. And we were with a group of friends as well. And like they could all hear me. It was so awful. And there was actually four or five of us were pregnant at the time. no. We all had babies within a month of each other. And I just remember being like, not excited at the time because I'm like, odds are not good. Like this is not good. Like, one of us are likely to lose our babies. And I thought, it's me. This is I'm going to lose this baby. And so I had quite a big bleed in the camper. And then Adam rushed me in for Oscar just stayed with my best friend who's married to Adam's brother. So like sister -in -law. And I got to the hospital, the GP also was like, propping me like, I'm probably not good. And I was like, I know. And then she was like, I had to stand up and let's do it. I'm sorry, if I do a speculum, I'll say, yep, sure. And when I stood up, had this other massively like all over the floor. And we just both looked at each other like, this is not good. And then she thought she could say some, in my cervix. And she's like, think, I'm really sorry about it. you're passing your baby. And then she scared me and there's this little, I was going say little rabbit, wasn't a rabbit, but there's this little baby in there still with a heartbeat. And she's like, I don't understand whether that's just a clot sitting in your cervix. And yeah, so that was a time I stayed overnight. Yeah. was subchorion and chemitoma. Okay. If you don't know what a subchorion and chemitoma is, this is what I can explain. Basically, it's a collection of blood between the wall of the uterus and the membrane sac that holds and protects your baby. They think it happens when the corion or that side of the membranes detaches from the wall of the uterus slightly. But why does this happen? They don't know. It's difficult to say how many pregnancies this is found in, but broadly between 20 to 40 % of women will experience some form of bleeding during the first trimester. But that must have been so scary. Yeah, was. And I just remembered how much I loved this baby and I didn't, you know, met the little person yet, you know. And I just remember being heartbroken that, yeah, it was going to be over, but it wasn't. Thank God. Yeah. keeps me on my toes now. Classic second child, I think. So, yeah, just wanted to make his presence known right from the word go. Yeah, and the rest of the pregnancy continued to be well, I think that lead made me feel very conscious about any sensation down there because I remember being worried that I was losing my mucus polygon like 26 weeks. And my friend who is a sonographer, she just scanned me at the time I rang her. Yeah, she just scanned me got on you know, just sort of sloshed me into a time slot and No, my cervix was long and close. But yeah, I guess I was just any increase in mucous loss or sensation. just was really on to Yeah. Yeah. And to that I said, well, I only did my fasting this time. I didn't do the full OGTT. Didn't want to. Yeah. Likely of me being diabetic. was like, nah. Yeah. Made that informed choice. I declined GBS squabbing. Yeah. and was really comfortable with that decision. Didn't feel pressured by even the GP obviously was just like, yep, whatever, that's your informed choice. And then Oscar, I went that bit early, few days early, whatever. And so here you go, I thought I'd do the same. Another lesson in life. And it was getting up, it was very close to Christmas time. So that classic old, I don't want a Christmas baby, but I don't ever want an induction. And because we were all pregnant at the same time, my sister -in who's my best friend, she was sort of getting in my ear, she was also pregnant. We had due dates three days apart. my gosh, wow. She's like, I'm going to beat you, because it's a race. And I'm actually a really competitive person. But I'm like, this is not a race. doesn't, you know, it doesn't come in like. It'll come in its own time. chill. But also she is not going to beat me. Yeah. Yeah. So I got 40 and one and I begged my midwife for a cervical check. Yeah. Stretching. Yeah. Look, if you happen to stretch a little bit, I can send. She's like, you don't want me to do that. I do. I do. Yeah, I don't want to. It's silly thinking about it. But the feeling was real at the time. And she says me she's like, what do you want me to say? Like, you know, classic multi -horse, you know, that's just saying, you know, it's soft, it's stretchy, whatever. then I reckon it was the next day. No matter, it so it must have been my due date. I made her do that the 19th of December because then I had him the next day on the whether it was because... But I was trying to do my best. Yeah. mean, as you would. As you would. What did I say? need to... It's race. I'm in it. They're never going to know if I cheat a little bit. I don't know. Have you ever tried to do your own cervical assessment? I think that did maybe with Murphy. And when I was like with Frankie, did, I don't think I did, but I remember like when I was in labor with Frankie, because I had said, nobody, nobody's to touch me. Same thing. Don't touch me. Don't talk to me. Don't be near me. And I remember there was a point where I'm like, this is taking so long. And I went to like do my own check and his head was right there. So I did sort of, but like there was head. So I think I argue that like my belly gets really, really big. So like actually getting in the right angle. I don't know if I could like do it very well. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, it is tricky, but yeah. So then I only went one day over whatever that means once again. guest day, due date, whatever you want it to be irrelevant. But yeah, I remember just feeling really heavy that day, like really heavy. Went and visited a friend who was day three, who had got home and I was like, I was having some breastfeeding issues as well. sort of like a helpful piece. can, I'm just here to hold your baby. so just went there briefly and I remember having a few, like, was a bit of a something's happening, like contraction sort of thing. And I just knew I was like, it's going to be time soon. So that evening, so I kind of saw her late, like around 4pm, 5pm, was like, I reckon we're going to be on tonight sort of thing. so I like watered the garden. was, you know, middle of summer, it was hot. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think I'm like 9pm. I'm like, yeah, I reckon we're on these are becoming pretty consistent told my midwife. I got mom to come out. So mom lives 20 k's away. She came into town and like to stay with Oscar. Yeah, I said don't come to my house yet. So go stay with like go to my grandma's like grandma's stay there because I sort of don't want to. know, some people really want their mom sometimes in the labor space. I didn't want that because, because I don't think should be helpful, but I would worry about how she feels. you know, you just, you can't completely go inwards and not worry about anyone else. So she was at least in town and I think, yeah, so sorry, she was in town and I just, Adam took Oscar to bed and I just, you just have that little pain of like, When you wake up, mate, we're not going to, we're going to be family for, and it's not just you and me anymore. I finished work at like 32, 33 weeks with him because I just had a lot of pelvic pain and was sore. And I don't regret that because we just had so much one -on -one time. Yeah. But you just have that little pain in your heart, don't you? Like you just know things are going to be different forever. And the Christmas, I just was in the lounge, the Christmas tree lights were on. I had like frankincense burning Wow. Had my hypnotherapy in and I'm like, I've got this. I've just got to breathe and let go. And I can turn it off like 10 PM. My midwife came around. I was in the shower again, just breathing through. she was like, I don't think it's going to be long. So what do you want to do? Are we staying here or are coming? And I better go. Yeah. You set the scenes perfectly. It would have been so beautiful. So we went and I was like, this old chest start hopping in the car. All fours in the back. Yeah. Yeah. In the back at least. the most beautiful thing though was my, I spoke about Amelia, my auntie who was a RNRN. She was night shift. She's actually my godmother. night shift and she was edging towards the end of her retirement. Like it was, you know, a couple of months out from her retirement. So yeah, and we just went straight to the same room that I had Oscar in. Didn't want to go to Labour Ward again. I helped him to shower for a bit, but funnier, this time my body told me to get out the shower and I needed to be on all fours. And I helped on the bed on all fours. Whereas I didn't feel the need to do that with Oscar. And I just knew next interaction, I push him. And my family certainly did that. And I felt so in control as we were pushing. I just then started wailing and screaming. It just felt like, vocally, was making a lot of noise. There was a old mother girl in labour in the next room. wet. And here comes me, waltzing in, having a baby and left. she was still in labour. The poor girl. She was still in there. my goodness. that's rude. I imagine being her. I know who she is and she knows who I am. It's like these women are just popping them out and I'm still here. she was having her baby and Janice comes in. Do you know that episode? No. it's been a long time since I've watched Friends. yeah. yeah, and I just remember feeling really out control and I felt iron. Tearing terribly this time. This is not good. And so the difference though with Hugo was my waters hadn't released until his head was on view. of course. Yeah. his waters released with his head on view, there was some release of pressure, but still felt quite a lot. And I just remember begging for help and no one helping me. And my auntie was in the room as the second. And yeah, and my midwife and Adam reassuring me that all would be well. And yeah, Hugo entered the world and just brought him straight up to my chest and then turned over. Wanted another physiological third stage, but think my placenta that time was really intense. I hilarious the GP obstetrician she missed both my births because of how quick they are and she lives like 20k's out of town as well. she rocked up and picked up placenta but it just was like this, I honestly thought I was a bit going to die or have some cervical shock or something because it was just all this pressure. It was it was worse than birthing I reckon. And I started reading for the oxytocin I was like, go get it. I need this out. can't cannot bear this. yeah, so oscus placenta was only like 15 minutes for like a physiological third stage. And this one was like, yeah. So I think yeah, my midwife went off to go get the oxytocin and the GP ops was in the room like just reassuring me like it's fine in my life. Bloodless is fine. So Yeah. And then my placenta was just this great big whopping placenta because he was a good size himself. was in the nine pairs. So of course I my placenta to go with it. But yeah, I found that really intense. So I did have some fears coming into this birth. Like, that pesky placenta, how's that going to go again? But yeah, it wasn't a cat. So with Hugo, so with Oscar, I think we said, was it like three and a half hours and with Hugo, how long do you say? to go quicker and quicker. Yeah, no tearing. Yeah. Isn't that amazing? Because like that is the fear of so, so, so many women. And, like, yeah, I can empathize that it does feel like your entire body is well, at least in my experience, your entire body is like ripping, not like breaking delicately, ripping in part. at least that was my very personal, experience that for listeners that might not be your experience. You might have an orgasmic birth, would be amazing. but then, yeah, Like it's just, yeah, incredible because yeah, then you didn't even tell. remember listening to some podcasts, I Rachel Reid, it must have been the Midwives' Cauldron, I think not long after my birth or maybe before that, before that birth. But you know, women, I started to realize how instinctive women are in that pushing space when they are in all fours or whatever, that sort of forward position. They want to keep their legs together. And I so much so wanted to do that. Same with all his birth. I wanted my knees together. And sort of after that head comes out, sort of, you sort of shoot your foot forwards a bit. And it's like that instinct to protect your perineum. And I could feel my body doing that. And then it was the same with all his birth. Like, I mean, I could say like, just like, your legs a little bit. I was like, and then, Because it just feels wrong. So then you just think about all these women that get told, I need to see you, know, you're in a steer at 7 foot beat or something. The pressure that puts on the period. Hugo's birth was quick as well, but I felt a lot more positive about it by the placenta. But I then went home four hours later, so at like 4am. But it was, so, know, I just stay on. I think that's when maybe Penny's up to sing for me. Like, why don't I go? Like, you know, blood loss of like hundred meals was like just so boring. Yeah. What was your breastfeeding journey like? As as he latched, I was like, here we go again. My midwife asked me, how does it feel? like, really? And then she, you get that laser ready. I know how to handle this. I know how to hand express, know how to finger feed, I know how to pump. The only thing is I don't have a three year old. But Oscar's a very special, special circle. He's so accommodating, so understanding. Even as a three year old, knew, yeah, yeah, pumping and finger feeding. He just never demanded more than a normal, if that makes sense. Like, it was so good. But yeah, so home four hours later, so got home at like 4 a .m. Sets into my auntie, her, clean up the mess things and yeah, mom was asleep in our bed with Oscar and she like walked out, she's like, God, you're home. I was like, And so she got to meet Hugo and then just, went in then bed with Oscar, mom came out. went to Oscar's bed, reckon, I jumped in the spare bed with Hugo, tucked myself in, baby, thinking, we might have that, you know, bit of sleep now, did not happen. I think at about 6am I was out again. And I like, hey, we a baby brother. He sort of looked at me and smiled and he went off to it, then he chucked the lift and went to his room and sort of got dressed, out of his pajamas, got dressed, sort of maybe had a moment. then came out was ready to meet you. But yeah, So yeah, then postnatally. Yeah, I the same little I was gonna say yeah, all tip top. No, had a breast abscess at six weeks postnatal that had surgery. a bit of a must -dodge but it's all good. It's all in the learning. my goodness. my gosh. Admitted at six weeks post -natal. At breast cancer surgery. yeah, Hugo stayed in with me and just love, I think being a beef, HI hospital, they just get it as well, know, Adam stayed with me a couple of nights. I think mum might have even stayed in with me a night. I think I was in for three nights and Hugo was always with me and in the bed with Like we had a bassinet and laughed at it. It like 80s and we used to joke that he was Hugo, not Hugo. he was a big chunker and we were like, it's not going to fit in a bassinet and he's going to hate it. So I just had him in my bed with me. had support people at the time. So yeah, so that was, that's Oscar and Hugo in a nutshell. so after, after you've had Hugo, Then the, the cogs have started turning being like, okay, maybe, maybe I need to rethink this home birth thing. And also at the time I then by that point I had a colleague who had done her masters and had then gone on to mat leave. that was a, had very much all the intention of being a private practicing midwife after. that she had had, that was her fifth baby and she had had like four home births. So yeah, I've always had her in my sphere of influence. And that's who entered my big wife for August. And then I also had another colleague that in that maybe around like the 2021 period did a prescribing course as well to become a private practicing midwife as well. So I started to have these people influencing around me. I also then had another good colleague and friend that had quite a precipitous first birth and then got pregnant again and just knew that she was birthing at home. She lives out on the farm and she was like, I'm not doing that drive again. I know I'm my body. She just fast -tracked that process she needed to do in her head. trusting physiology, physiology and women and birth and red thread and all of that she just fast tracked about so quickly that she birthed at home with her second and with a private midwife. So I think I had her as well influencing me just how normal it was. And you know what, Elsie, this sounds really, really We still just did not know enough about home birth. At this point, I don't reckon I knew that home birth midwives carried drugs. I think I maybe thought that they had a bag at last, but I honestly don't think I that they had oxytocin, misoprostol, drugs to help with stopping bleeding. I didn't understand enough. I think when that colleague who had birth at home was just no, you know, or she, I mean, my midwife dropped off the oxygen. was like, they drop off oxygen? tell me. Yeah. Wait, what? I thought this was the hippie alternative. What's all of these drugs? yeah, also pivoted pivot to, can't exactly say pivot. substantial things happened in that time as well in terms of my career. yeah. Between Hugo and Orgy. I just had a rough time. And so did those women, guess. So just had a rough year of not great births. You know, sometimes, sometimes things just don't go straightforward. And whether that woman's done as much preparation as possible or you're being as, yeah. trying, you know, to have no intervention. Just, yeah, I just had some real careful things happen. And I guess working in the community as well that you live in, that's another layer of complexity, of trauma. And I just, yeah, started to lose faith in like physiology, basically, and misbirth and just had a really rough time to the point that I... This was last March, I guess. I had had quite a busy time and I was in the labour space and I just, I had nothing to give, not a single thing. Yeah. And I got another midwife to come in and this was one of my named women, like I was her named midwife, but I had nothing to give. Yeah. I couldn't be there for her. And I got another midwife to just... Yeah, well. takeover essentially. And I've never had that happen to me before, you know, like if a second sort of comes in for the second midwife sort of comes in, just for that. Yeah, around that time. And I got her to come in sooner because I knew I was not right. And she must have she picked up on that. And she started to take over being the primary midwife basically, and I just regressed back, so a bit of paperwork. I said, I'm just gonna leave the room for a And I left and I never went back And I had three and a half months off and got a diagnosis of PTSD and started seeing a specific perinatal psychologist who I still see now. But yeah, I was just completely burnt out and hadn't quite realized. Yeah, so I had three and a half months off and then... went and have been working as a diabetic educator. I just needed to go do something safe in terms of no uncle. I wasn't going to be in these high stressful situations basically and be with my family because it was, you you'd start taking it home, you become irritable, you become short, you are so tired but you can't sleep. And you're just not the best version of yourself. So I just needed to have a break, which sucked because I also had worked so hard to be at that point in my career. But I also needed to be a mom and put myself first too. So yeah, that's what I did. And I always knew I wanted to get pregnant. To 2023. That was always our plan. I think my psychologist probably wanted me to delay a little bit and work through few things. But we got pregnant, I potentially had an early miss but I don't miscarriage around that time as well. But I think it was I was maybe as quickly as I was pregnant, I sort of wasn't I think. yeah, yeah, yeah. Sort of conceived again around that May time last year. And that was with Augie. Yeah, so Similar to Hugo's pregnancy in the sense of like nausea, I did go see the GP ops nutrition. Like I did a book in straight away with a private midwife. She's a great GP ops and have a great relationship with her. So she's really hard to get into. I went and saw her. I think she had a date and was scanning the room. but couldn't see much so I went off to a formal one. And the day I told my mom, I think I was about six weeks, once again stood up from the couch, but I felt a bit of loss and I was like, no. I went to the bathroom and had like a bit of, you know, you know, enough to line the bottom of your nipples and I was like, Just told mom and now I'm going to have to tell her having a miscarriage. But no, probably more so just an implantation bleed, which lots of women experience, but I hadn't really experienced that. So. Yeah, and Hugo and Augie, had the nausea like Hugo bounce at the 20 week mark again. Yeah. Was only working part time, but sort of finished up around that 32 week mark again. No regrets doing that and pushing myself. Yeah, the pivotal thing. And so, sorry, go Yeah, pivotal thing when I link between. August pregnancy, like in Hugo's. So not only was work incredibly stressful that year, but when I reflect on it, it's like, I was starting to be an RBC or C. I sat the exam, we were building a house, where I was living with like partly with in -laws, partly with my mom and my stepdad. Like, hello, perfect storm. Like no wonder I was a little bit tired. Like. Just a lot was happening. So it's just classic like seeing it from the outside in there. Why was I trying to portray that superwoman thing, you know, which we sometimes maybe do like, or we maybe think that other women have it all together. And yeah, like just propelling that women can do, can do it all at once or have, you know, 70 balls in the air, juggle and trying to catch. Yeah. So there was just a lot happening. So I definitely in my pregnancy with Orgy. it was just sort of working two days a week, was working privately as an RBC or C just with whatever sporadic work that it brings. Finished around 32, 33 weeks. I did do my OGTT this time. Being a diabetic educator, but more so because I was just interested. I was just My private midwife, hadn't, so sorry, I'm jumping all over the shop, but I hadn't engaged with Lena. That's okay. I had told her I was pregnant and this is what I was thinking, but I was like, hey, can we just like, you you live in Adelaide, like, can we just do like this? I wonder if the doctor will do shared care. Like, can we just see if we can just manipulate the system for a bit? You know, and I'm so privileged to have to be able to have the knowledge to manipulate the system, you know. So many women don't. And the fact that women have to navigate the system so hard is so wrong. I'm very fortunate enough that I could, you know, wangle things. So the GP and my private wife didn't have a collaborative arrangement, which means, you know, working together. But what we came up with this like I stayed in the public system up to 28 weeks and then I jumped ship. Lena was happy to do that because she was an ex colleague. She knew me well. I knew her vibe. She knew what I wanted. Like we didn't really need to establish a relationship as such. She knew my birth history, know, things like that. So even though she wasn't my midwife for the other two, she knew me well. I think from 32 weeks onwards, I started seeing her. I was happy to have scans and things like that, just like your standard scans, nothing extra. Like I'm all for people opting out. But I just think that morphology won that 20 week one. I just sort of want to know what my placenta is basically. If we're expecting any cardiac defects, I don't know if we're expecting, it doesn't change. for me maybe if I had it. Plus center over the top of my cervix, it would, but in terms of any abnormalities, it didn't change anything for me. But I'd just like to know. I guess maybe just pausing for a second on that. So when you've become pregnant with Augie, you already have in your mind, I am going to have a home birth this time, all going well. And so where is Adam in this picture? my darling husband. Adam is so chill. He, the poor, I think the poor, like, so women or whoever we have as partners. who are in this birth space. Obviously we talk so much I think at home about birthing and lactation and pregnancy and this and that. So they just get vomit all the time about these discussions. So I feel like he was sort of well informed of my thoughts. And I sort of said, I think when I was like, I want to be at the home this time, he was sort of like, okay. Yeah, amazing. There's a hell of a lot anyone can do for you. You just got to do it. Yeah. Like cost wise, I think it sucks cost comes into it. Especially when you know how like easy like your experience was like. Yes, that broader element of guilt as well. was so. Yeah, we do have NGP. And yeah, although the team has changed drastically with staff over the last 18 to two years, like I would have had a different primary midwife. Because the other midwife that I definitely would have had like my colleague that had birthed on, she was still on bat leave and had got pregnant again. Yeah, she was pregnant the same time. yeah, yeah. So part of this time, but Well, she wasn't available. And so yeah, like I trusted the team there. But I didn't. I loved my little primary midwife who I am. I did have up until 28 weeks. But I just, I just felt like I just didn't want to be that doing what people expected off me, you know, being that good girl. you know. And like I said, We've got a great birthing service. I do have a sense of guilt, but I just also, there has to be more to this. There's more to birthing, again. I went and had care with Alina from 32 weeks onwards and yeah, so just finish my care with public and jump ship. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. And you know, did, was it kind of shared with, you know, the people that you saw up towards that 32 week mark that you were going to be jumping ship and having a home birth or like, was there any commentary from people that you knew or people that you didn't know about that choice? I tried to think about, yeah, I thinking about this. I sort of only had that discussion with people if they asked. Like, I don't think I overly like Yeah, sure. But I was definitely up for having a conversation with people that were interested or asked, you know, you birthing there? I think at hospital, yeah, this time sort of thing. And I actually know, I'm gonna say, think some people are like, I like my close friends knew and I think they were like, that's so Emma. You know, no one really gave me sick about it. think I told my mother -in -law like around 34 weeks and I think she looked at me a bit funny and was like, Oh, well, you're a midwife, whatever. Like that was it. Yeah, yeah, Any more thought. And I think my auntie, the one that I've talked about before, I think she was a bit like, Oh, you're brave. But once again, a few people that did have that opinion, like my mentor, IBCLC as well. She was a bit like that with me as well. She used to be a midwife as well, a child with educator, but she was sort of, she also sort of made those comments like, I guess it's not your first baby. You know, like, yeah. she came and saw me one day and I made a point of like, here's the oxytocin and myosin in my fridge. And you know, here's the oxygen leaner just dropped off. It's in my walk -in wardrobe. Here's the bag and mask. It's totally safe, like chill. So I felt like to those professionals who were my friends or my family, like those health professionals that were in my support realm, I felt like to them, I needed to convince them that it was safe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, but I never had anyone give me a hard time about it. I feel maybe I come across sometimes confident or competent or passionate. And so some people are just like, I won't go into that with her. You know? Yeah. Yeah. make sure that when I'm breastfeeding in public that I have the best resting bitch face. so nobody comes near me. look way too confident. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I feel that some people get a lot more on stick than I did. And once again, I probably just leaned into my friend colleague, who died as well, just for that reassurance of like, Yeah, you're gonna love this. Like, your world's gonna be rocked. You don't even know it. And she also convinced me we have a got a doula in the area. We also have an emerging doula, who does Mother Blessings. And my friend was like, you need to have a mother blessing. And I was like, do I? You know, she's like, you need to have one. I was like, they're expensive. I want to ask people to like put in money for it. you know, what is it? Like, we just can't value ourselves, you know, enough to be like, you you deserve, you deserve this. It's okay. put yourself first. Yeah. It felt icky initially, It was so great. I had this afternoon that was about me and I felt guilty, you know, it was like, Yeah. But it really did. It was a beautiful, wholesome, spiritual experience. And I would highly, highly encourage people. If you've got someone that can do a mother blessing versus a baby shower. my Yeah. There's no comparison. I think I, I, yeah, well, I, so I, have helped set up like Home Birth Victoria and I posted in the group last night, like if you need people to be like sitting in the circle because like you don't have any like like -minded. friends or, you know, people in your circle, like, please utilize the group to like, because there would be people that, you know, are in this home birth community that will come along and like be, you know, your sister in that, because I think, like, I've been reflecting on this a little bit lately that, you know, the home birth community in Australia is like 1%. Like, I mean, like 1 % of women or less than 1 % of women are giving birth at home every year. like, there's like such a small amount of us. And especially, you know, if you're in a rural or remote area, maybe you are around other people, having home births, Like more often than not, like you are having to make that trip to like a more tertiary metro area to await the arrival of your baby. but like you're having like -minded people sit in that deeply spiritual, spiritual space where it's all about the woman. It's not about anybody else, anybody else's, you know, gratification that, you know, they've given the best gift for their gift or they've like spent the most money or, yeah, it's just, it's all about you. It's, that's, that's what's amazing. I think like, it's just what could like propel you into like labor and birth better than for you to be celebrated. Yeah. you've got those sad people in your space. So I think I had, Yeah, we just did. So I did a fear release ceremony. So I had a, like my fear of birthing at home was like shown in dystocia and nuclear cord, but not just like a normal nuclear cord. mean, like an excessive nuclear cord that the baby couldn't descend. And obviously that's been a part of my trauma. So I needed to let that go. And I also, I needed to really trust physiology and my body and not let me down too tough. and it was not going to again. and yeah, I did get vaccinations which were beautiful. So I had them set up in my space and just this wholesome afternoon of tea drinking, coffee drinking and beautiful snacks and just wrapping me up in love and strength and I was completely fulfilled and then a meal train and I felt once again same colleague friend have a meal train. I'm not having a meal train. I'm not having other mothers cook for me who are busy. I'm not asking that of people. She's like, you're having a meal train and you're going to like it. Actually, you're going to love it. And I was like, my gosh. Okay. So had this roster and I was like, look, put your name down, but don't feel obliged. And I feel it's just like, shut up. You will accept this. I was like, best thing ever. If I can say anything to anyone is have a meal, have a meal roster. And it might not, you might not have enough people to. over seven nights in the week. But if you know you've always got someone in that early postnatal period that's going to cook a Monday night, so he's going to cook a Wednesday night and a Friday night, and you have leftovers in between or whatever, it makes the world of difference. Not having to think about food or snacks or nourishing yourself. Honestly, I just thought that was the best thing ever. And people just dropping a meal, not wanting to stay. It's not about visiting. It's about, here's your tea, catch it. Yeah, that was the best thing ever. So I don't think we cooked for like the first four weeks close to home, maybe once. Yeah, that's brilliant. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so with, with Oscar and Hugo, you didn't have anything like that. Like lucky enough, I've got lots of family around me and we might've had a male hero there dropped off or maybe a more experienced mum in the community. some other friends that didn't maybe drop off some things, but nothing like a roster. Yeah, continuous sort of thing. A lot more of coming to the baby rather than hold the mother and sort of thing. And yeah, yeah, this that this time, it was absolutely phenomenal. And so much so that I that was locally not long ago and Christmas is just as I said, are you home? Like, not going anywhere, you're home today. She's like, yeah, I'm like, I'm you tea at three. And she was like, you don't have to do that. I'm like, no, tea, I'm already half cooked it. I'm dropping you a meal. And in fact, the next two Tuesdays I'm cooking for you. You know, and she's like, what can I do? Like in return, I was like, nothing, just accept. The next few Tuesdays don't have to cook. Done. Yeah. Yeah. that's wonderful. winding back. Yeah. Mother blessing was beautiful. I had my birth altar. which I still got bits above here, but I mean, the audience he listening can't see, but I just felt like I couldn't take it all down and I've left parts up. And they wrote beautiful letters to me that I, when I thought I was going into labour with Orgy, I read through them again, you know, really just found that sacred space again, and just dove into it. So it's just beautiful altar. Yeah, that was a great visual. leading up to preparation of birthing and yeah, those last few weeks. So, and yeah, Adam was still on board with everything. Even like we said, we mentioned the cost before and Lena was happy to do a bit of a payment plan as well. cool. Yeah, she's like never wants the cost to be a reason why a woman can't birth at home. We just sort of divvied it up into three things sort of thing. But yeah, Adam was just totally on board and he's just so supportive. And I just really feel for women that maybe don't have partners like that because it's just another battle you got to have, isn't it? It's another fight, you know? Yeah. And Adam did this with his setup. Like I'm in our room now, but yeah, I'm switched just a bit down the corridor and he's a tradesman. So he's got a couple of trades. So he's set up. know, underneath one of the basins, like he detached it and then made another attachment so that the hose could just plug into it. So we just had a whole water tap straight from the pool. Yeah. just really practical handy stuff. So yeah, around like that 38 week, my Lena dropped off all the things, the birth pool. And it's funny, isn't it? Like I said, I labored in the shower with the other two and she was like, you going to birth in water? And I was Oh, like, I like it? And she was like, Oh, you'll love it. She's like, you've been in the shower twice before. was like, yeah, but the shower's a bit different. She's like, just hop in the water. Yeah. Okay. So we sort of had blown up and in the spare room, like semi blown up and in the spare room from like 38 weeks onwards, just because I guess I'd had quickie bursts. We're just like, let's be sort of ready. But then I also had that stupid thing going on in my head, like sometimes it's a ridiculous saying, but I've heard me say before, it's the curve ball. So I'm like, this one's going to be like a t -bar. Yeah. Yeah. So we just had that already just in case. yeah, I ended up going the most over this time, which did my head in. I was listening to your podcast flat out, sort of probably from 37 weeks onwards. And there was a couple of women and I think talking about your experience in going like two, three weeks over and just how much that can mess with your head and it does. And I'll see you in five days over. Like, you're just like, please shut up. But I don't think it's enough to really mess with my Yeah. So much so that I asked for the old cervical assessment. Yeah. But yeah, I really had to, you just feel uncomfortable. I don't know. You just, you're so ready to go into labour that you just, you're not just walking to it. You're like running to it. Like, please, discomfort come at me because that means all my pregnancy soreness will be gone. You know, I saw a video today of a lady saying like, oh, like, you know, just because you're pregnant doesn't mean you can't do things, whatever. And she was like 37 weeks surfing. And I was like, there is no way I could barely walk. How is somebody out there surfing? Yeah. Like, oh my gosh. was her first baby. Yeah. I mean, amazing. Um, can't remember what the caption thing, but I just saw it and I was like, what the heck? First baby laugh. I couldn't do up my own shoelaces. We riding the bike quite a bit with Austin to 35 weeks, like sort of. The town I mean, it has a few hills in it. So remember like still getting up a hill, but I had really bad sciatica, which funny. funnily enough stopped after I stopped riding a bike. But there's no way I could surf. Crazy. And definitely not in my conferences. You're your center of like, I remember actually when I was pregnant with Murphy, we went back up to the Sunshine Coast in Queensland for like Christmas or something. And we were really, had really been into paddle boarding. And so we'd borrowed somebody's paddle board. And like trying to get up on the paddleboard whilst pregnant, like your centre of gravity is just all out. Like, so like even getting on a paddleboard was hard. There's no way I could have surfed. if I could. Yeah. Yeah. Good on her. But yeah, like in terms of like, yeah, cycling and stuff as well. Like that's amazing. I don't think I could have done that either. And this pregnancy, was even more, like I didn't even do much walking and I'm quite a physical person like I you know, in between Yeah, babies have like run a few half marathons just things like I enjoy running and exercise and yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like, not doing that. I literally had a hot cross bond every day with you. Yeah, So I didn't come out. Yeah. I'm just sore and tired Me, I got to get the other kids on their bikes or something. And I don't want to do that. And Lena even said to me that, if you for walks, he's staying mobile. was like, I'll be fine. She's like, you know, like just stay a little bit more active than what you're doing. You know, help your body. You can't tell me anything. I'm like that worst patient, worst client ever. So I feel like I'm prepared here. Lena sent me like, I think it was maybe the Rebellion podcast, like how to prepare for our own birth or something like that. Yeah, so just had like the person there, which we never use, but with towels in it and like a birth kid sort of thing. Yeah, I was so ready to make this little person. I did know his gender this time. Didn't find out the other two, but I found out with him. I felt when I saw him at 12 weeks anyway, and the scan I was like, Oh, that's a boy. He has massive feet. husband. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I enjoyed not knowing and I enjoyed knowing as well, but didn't tell people we knew. Yeah. So yeah, got to 40 and four. And I don't really have needles, but got up to go to the toilet. at like three in the morning went and did a wee. my gosh, get sick of weeing. I remember that. Yeah, I'm so glad to only wee once a night now if not not at all. But you know, I up to sleep at like 3am and I popped back in bed and then just felt a bit of warmness. And I was like, here we go. Yeah, I just just stopped in bed. I was like, don't move because I'm about to wet the bed with membranes. And I then stayed there for like a few seconds and then moved, confidence to move and a bit more came out. was like, so good. And then sort of just like, did that run holding your, holding your bits to the toilet. Yeah. Yeah. It's checked my underwear and I can show the way that it was waters. But it was a huge amount. Yeah. Like I'm talking like a liner amount. Yeah, okay. Yeah. It was clear maybe maybe a little bit of mucus and I was like wicked. So I think I actually text Lena who like I said, she's from Adelaide, but she then had brought she had brought her family was saying like in another neighboring town not far away, like just having set up their camper, making a family holiday out of it. So she had a fa. So I text her and Just yeah, no contractions or anything. But I woke Adam up and I was like, I think like my waters have gone. Can you just like put the pool in our room, but go back to sleep? He was like, Roger. he did that. No, no, just so compliant. Got up, did those things for me. my mumma had passed away nearly a year now. So she passed away last June. And so I had like a picture of her, I had like her bruiser of beads on my altar. And I just had like this real pouring out to like her, to my birthing ancestors. I knew they were with me. I just had this good cry and I was like, I'm about to go into this portal again. And I'm going willingly. just be with me. yeah, big cry. maybe for about 40 minutes, I just sort of stayed upright kept moving and just really have like too many contractions and I had this overwhelming like, you're tired, go lay down. So I went back to bed, got up a bit before seven, woke up a bit before seven, nothing had really happened. And I messaged my mom, she works part time, but she was going into work that day. And I said, can you not go to work? Like I think my waters are broken. Can you have the boys? Because I thought maybe the mental block was the boys being ho. Cause I wasn't sure if I wanted them to be around for the purse. Like Oscar starts gagging like at the sight of, I don't know, cut, a paper cut. Like I tell him, I'm like, you are not going to be healthy. You're trading yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, so I actually, and he's so empathetic Oscar that I feel like he would worry about me. Whereas Hugo would be interested, he would be like, cool. Bit of blood. what's mom doing? He would actually be quite intrigued. But I felt like maybe that was the block was then being home. So I was like, Mom, can you come get the boys? So she did that. Adam was on leave at this point. I'd taken leave. And so that morning, we went for a three day walk. I was like, Come on, baby. Like, come on, buddy. I've shrunk before, what's going on. I started to really get a bit down. was like, I think I was like remembering stuff from your birth stories and just other women you had talked to about prolonged rupture of membranes. And I was like just getting frustrated but also trying to let go. Mum, know, and my aunties started, the only ones that knew they were starting to get worried Why shouldn't she have the baby yet? Yeah, because I'm not in labor. That's why I haven't had to be here. Yeah. And then I packed the boys pajamas as well at seven in the morning. So maybe innately I knew that they needed to stay the night. And Lena come around at about five. And once I sort of just tell it, because she was like, yeah, we've been lost during the day. And I was like, well, really? She's like, It's a high water lake. Like you haven't properly shrunk. I'm like, duh. Like, of course that's why I haven't gone into labor. you know, my memories haven't properly gone. But I was still like, she really just helped reframe my mind. And I said to her, can I please, can you please just assess me? She's like, that's not my style. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can't go against your morals. You've got the wrong midwives. I've done like two VEs this year and I'm like, well, I'm going to be a third. That's so good. That's so good. She did it. I'm not sure if you ever did a cervical assessment in your training or if there's other midwives that can sting or if anyone had done it on themselves. But sometimes when you do a cervical assessment and you find the cervix and it just gives way, it's just like... two, three, four, five, six, seven centimeters actually. Yeah. So that's what happened. And I had been trying to do my instruction sweeps for like a week. I people like, yeah, like I had been listening to podcasts, just let it happen. Get your fingers out of the hair like, squatting in the shower. But I could not get to my cervix because my hair was so low. I mean, so low in my pelvis. And when Lena did do that VE, she was just like, my god, his head is like, you know, asphalence, you know, so quite down in the pelvis. And she's like, no wonder you can't do yeah, yeah, yeah. Posterior tucked up. And so yeah, my cervix just gave way. And then I stood up and had like a bit of a bloody show and a nice sort of a bit more of membrane sort of going, but not fully. So yeah, don't know when they fully went. They must have potentially got fully when I was pushing up in the water. yeah, Lena then was like, go down the street, like, I'm not going to go far. She like rubbed me up with Clarissa age. Yeah, and was like, just let just just be like, just just roasting that for a little bit. Yeah. I'd have a stray and then I'd had a few then start into like, know, peak and it's like, yes, yes, yes. And I said to her, I'm going to be, I promise I never going to complain. I'm going to be so happy to be a labor. And I was just, you know, when they start to peak and you're like, yes, this is so good. And then she checked back in with me about half an hour later. She's like, what do you want me to do? Do you want me go back to the campsite? Which was like 20 minutes by a half hour away. And I was like, do you know what? Go, because the best thing is me calling you You know? Yeah. And so she left, but then they actually fizzled. So I had tea. I felt really tired. And so I was like, do you know what? My body wants to rest. So I went and laid down. The boys were with mum. You know, for the night they were fine. I went and laid down and then at like 12.30, midnight, I woke up with just this pan in my bottom. them. Yeah, like knocking on that door. Like, wake up. Yeah. And I was like, laying on my left side. And I was so welcoming for these surges that I was like, I'm staying left lateral because I do not want them to fizzle again. And I just stayed there for like 10 minutes. And I kept getting more and more intense. And I ran, ran, ran, and said, I reckon we're on. And she just stayed, she stayed on me. went like, toileted herself. She stayed, kept talking to me on the phone. She's like, I'm dressed, you want me to come? I was like, I reckon it's time to come. And then I was always having my colleague that had birthed at home herself come and I text her and she happened to be awake as well. Little people and pregnant herself, she was awake. And she just said, just texted and I was like, hey, I think things are happening. And she was just Okay, want me to come and I just replied, maybe and she was like, see you soon. Maybe. 32 weeks pregnant herself. Yeah. My public midwife that was going to be my midwife, who's just so gorgeous. I'm like if I stayed in the public sector. She had never seen her home birth either. And she was just, I said, do you want to be in this space? And she was like, yeah, I would love to. she actually lives 50k away. she lives quite far away. when I told her that things were sort of happening after Lena had seen me, she actually came to then my town and stayed locally with a friend. Because she knew that things were probably going to I actually texted her as And she was toileting. Everyone just got the memo. And she was like, yeah. was a lining. And I was like, we're on, she's see you soon. And they all rocked up at the same time. at this point, so I'd gotten up from the bed. I was like, they're bitey. This is so good. I had my hypnobirthing in, I jumped in the shower. Gosh, I love the shower. Adam, I'm so excited. like that. Adam rocked up, he was in the bathroom going. Finally arrived. Yes, I started filling the bath. I was in the shower and I reckon, yeah, as the bath was sort of half, the pool was half full, people arrived and I then, yeah, I just was in my space, had my hypno birthing in, was so happy to be in labour and my, like, you know, support crew were just quietly sitting near me. I don't think, yeah, like I once again had declined things like it's like, I don't need a blood pressure on my side, like, I don't know, clinically unwell. Even then you can probably say that it's going to be low for fun. You know, just let me be and I don't know, sorry. And then I hopped in the water and I normally like really hot showers and baths and I accidentally made it a bit too hot. So then I was sort of bucketing out some water. Yeah, trying to get it perfect temperature. But I had my headphones in my AirPods and just really listening to the hit no birth thing, breathing, relaxing, embracing all that was about to come. And when that pool was ready, I hopped in and they even had the tap then on all cold. And I still was like just putting a bit of cold around because I was quite warm. Wow. Yeah. And I just felt so loved and supported. Just sort of sitting on the bed and saying with my friend and then like two sort of midwives were just beside me. And I just, it's so cool third time. Because you know what you're in for that you can also like not think but think at the same time. Like I'm like, here comes that sensation again. yeah, like I remember that. it's gonna pass and all be well. Like, so I knew when I got to the pool, like it was not going to be long, I could feel myself opening and feel those like transitional vibes like that shake that nausea. Yeah, well, the pressure. And yeah, it was probably in the pool for about 15 minutes and I was just like, I reckon I'm going to push. And I could hear that I maybe was making just these very quiet little vocal noises as compared to Hugo when I was just like really moaning and groaning. I could just hear it sort of happening. then these little words of encouragement from my crew every now and then just like, got And I think my friend even has a photo of me. I'll send you some photos through as well that I'm just laboring with my head on my hands leaning over the pool. And she said, you've got this in. And I printed the thumbs up, like, you know, just feel like pushing, just like transitioning like, yeah, cool. I know, thanks. That's great. Yeah. But I remember as my head started to come, I started panic a little bit like I didn't want to lift my bum up and I could feel that my body wanted to sort of lift my bum up a bit. The water was quite full but Lena just kept her hand on my back and I liked just that bit of her putting pressure on my lower back so I wouldn't shoot my boss out of the air. And she did that for me and she sort of said, Can you wiggle your legs open a little bit? Like just wiggle a little bit. And I said, can't. And she was like, you can. And I'm like, can't. yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I just very slightly opened my legs a little bit and she was like, just reach down and I could feel his head coming further and further out. then she just, you know, gently said to me like, wow, it's just, his head's just sitting there. And she's like, reach down and get him. I said, I don't think I can. And she's like, yes, you can. And so I just sort of, you know, reach forward and she just sort of gently, you know, from behind just like guided him forward. And I just, pulled him up and out and straight onto my chest and the little rather was a nuchal cord. that cord was around his neck and around his body and tight enough that I couldn't. pull him, he was sort of like diagonally upside down. Whoa, yeah, yeah, yeah. A little bungee baby. And I called him a shit, that's the first thing I called him. Because that was one of my fears, you know? she's like, just a little nipple call there. She goes, actually, it's quite tight. I was like, shit it. And she just unraveled him for me. Yeah, he him up and yeah, I called him a shit and he was crying straight away. I just felt high. Like, and I didn't have the other two. was, yeah, wow. And yeah, not in pain. yeah, like almost straight away like, that was too good. Let's do that again. And I remember listening to your podcast with the dad who was from America, like early on. And he was saying how he would get off of his wife's birth. I was like, yes, well, can confirm. It's like a drive. And I was high. And I just had him after calling him a shitter. I think because it's so like that happened to me again. I'm breathing. I'm alive. All is well. then I looked at this little person. Yeah. I looked at him and I'm like, I love him. Like I just loved him straight away. And once again, didn't have that didn't have that with Oscar till around like that two three month mark, like in love. didn't have that with you going to like an hour after birth. And then this time was just instant. now understood those other mums who felt that. I just loved him and he was so pretty. See, hi. Yeah, it was just so beautiful. I was like, yeah, this is August. We had a gathering in Angi. And I just sat in the water, I just sat back and the water was clear. think Lena wrote my EDA, she wanted to write 50 mils, but she's like, no one will believe that. So I'll just write a hundred, but I think it's 50 mils. Yeah, wow. The water was clear. Wow. That's amazing. I just brought him up and I think within five minutes he was latching and feeding. And my friend was And like, is it? Does it hurt? You know, considering the other two hurt straight away with their tongue ties. I was like, it doesn't hurt. Like, it feels amazing. And then Lena touched me on my shoulder. She's like, you're high. Like, give it a couple of hours and we'll see where you're sore, basically. So, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so powerful, right? Like, so incredible. would be no problems. Like, everyone would be Um, totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I sat in the water for about 40 minutes. And so this was my longest stage as well. Like my other third stages had been like 10, 15, maybe 20 minutes max in terms of that's quite quick for third stage for a physical third stage. Um, but this time it been like 45 minutes and I started to get a bit uncomfortable in the pool, like in terms of just, um, I had quite a big pool. Um, and short, but I'm not. So I just felt like I was sort of in a funny position for a bit like leaning back. Like I felt like if I slept any further, I was going to drown like us. yeah, I was like, okay. And then I hopped into our bathroom and she was like, maybe try and do a wee, like just sit on the toilet for a bit. You know, not in a rush. There's no rush. know, everything's normal. I hadn't even really had any cramps really. And I just sat in the toilet for a bit just stand and maybe like pull your cord a bit, just see if there's any like cord lengthening. And so I did that and I was like, that feels disgusting. Would not recommend pulling your own cord. It's like pulling out a big tampon. And I was like, yeah, I'm going do that. And then she was And I just squat. There's still no rush. Just squat then. And I squat and I was like, yeah, think something's happening. And I was like, yeah, it's coming. And she just had a little bowl there and just plopped into a bowl. But nowhere near, nothing like half of the placentas. Yeah, it felt like nothing. Just my placenta in my bowl and my baby, we then scuffled back to my bed and I just hopped into bed. me and my baby and my placenta. And my friend got me a cup of tea and some Vegemite on toast. my people just sat, like, midwife sat in the room. And my midwife, would have been my public midwife, said, she just, face for me is still just in my memory that she was high as a kite as well. You know, I feel like I've planted seeds there. You know, and she just said that. She's like, yeah, how, you know, how do you go back to a hospital? How do you go back? And yeah, absolutely. It spiritual thing. Like I can't describe it. And like, sure, like I'd had great hospital births too, this was that missing piece. And it was unbelievable. And yeah, into bed and we just Adam was next to me and you know, they slough it out the water. He did that onto the lawn. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but we just sort of hung out in bed together and got to know Augie and looked at him and just like, he's so beautiful. That's so cool. And everyone was just sort of potted around me. And then I think it was about six AM. So, so later and Verna from start to finish with him was an hour and 15 or something. Hour and... Yeah, wow. Hour and 20 maybe. Like my placenta was longer. Yeah. Holy moly. I'm just, yeah, I think I still think it's like so amazing. And... just like your whole journey as a woman, but as a midwife as well. And a midwife having worked in settings where physiology isn't generally common these days, like where you see intervention time and time again and having exposure to that all the time, being a part of that. And you being able to have such an amazing experience. Like, I think that really challenges other people's perceptions of home birth because, yeah, I mean, I've talked to, like, obviously I didn't go on to finish my midwifery, but, you know, I have midwife friends that like work in these tertiary hospitals that are seeing all of this and they go, I couldn't have a home birth. And, you know, such a journey to have to separate yourself from Be like, this is actually my journey. It's not their journey. yeah. So I think your story is very powerful, Emma. Yeah. So it is a journey. That's for sure. Lots of learning and unlearning still unfolding. Every day. yeah, super, grateful for my experiences. yeah. And yeah, just like, you know, some of the complex breastfeeding things I get and things like that. You know, there was a saying, do it again this time in terms of tongue tie. But it's like, hey, we know how to enter that and we know all the steps we need to do and you know, some mastitis. But yeah, I actually did have a hospital admission day 10 to day 13 with bilateral mastitis. We were worried it was going to develop into a breast abscess. Anyway, that didn't, but I ended up in hospital anyway, didn't I? But that's because I was unwell. It was warranted. Yeah, but like, yeah, but like, yeah. And I mean, if something's not right, hospital is where you want to be because they know how to deal with things that go wrong. And birth is not innately something that's going wrong. It's not a disease. And when he's talked about your friends who maybe work in tertiary settings. yeah. Once again, I'm in this little bubble and I'm so grateful to have learnt in this little bubble and be surrounded by some wonderful mentors that are all about physiology, even though that is hard in the system or in an industry that maybe doesn't promote it. But I'm still very savvy about how you empower women to make informed decisions to that can decline things. And you just write that like that. And do you respect that? Like, woman decline cervical assessment? Done. you know, like, but yeah, when you're in even that sort of bigger hospital where things really are, unfortunately, women do become very much so a number. It breaks my heart for sure. Just to experience Augie's birth and just be like, this is how good it can be. And if only everyone could experience this or Even if they did have to have a hospital birth for some reason, if they had become unwell, or there was some really rare issue or whatever, anomaly or something, why does it have to be so hard that, you know, should be respected and spoke to nicely and given impact concern and kept with their baby at all times and just things like that. We just needed to do that basically. Yeah. No, I'm so happy to share my story. And that you listen to the podcast as well. to nearly pretty much every episode leading up to my birth. And then I even listen to a few of the latest ones leading up to this recording. I think it's a great thing that you're doing. Well, thank you so, so much. And thank you for taking the time away from baby Orgy. And thank you Orgy who can't hear me at the moment, but sending good vibes to Orgy. Is there anything else to finish up that you'd like to add or anything like that? for providing like a wonderful platform for women to share stories, know, and share their experiences you know, someone just stumbles across it and you know, learns a bit more, hears a bit more and just know that they have options. You know, that's what it really comes down to, isn't it? We've got options and it's within our right to choose. So thanks for spreading the word basically. Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you so much Emma.