Three beautiful births including a footling breech! || Kate's birth of Alvey Forest (2019), Judah River (2022) & Vance Ridge (2024) at home (New South Wales)

In episode 42, we hear from Kate who so beautifully walks us through her 3 births at home, including a footling breech homebirth. Kate and her partner James began connecting with the homebirth community before their first baby, and so naturally, when the time came, they chose homebirth and after 2 magical births, Kate decided to birth unassisted but supported by her loved ones. Make sure to check out the great images shared on my instagram birthingathome_apodcast. 

Learn more about me, my offers as a doula & the podcast here: https://www.birthingathome.com.au


Resources: 

I don't think we discuss any specific resources in this ep, but we do talk about 

• Doula's
• Footling breach 
• Yoga
• Hypnobirthing
• The magic of birth 

Chapters

• 11:06 Conscious Conception and Preparation for Home Birth
• 27:08 Breech Birth Experience
• 41:15 Challenging Birth Norms
• 54:03 The Transformative Power of Birth

Transcript

0:02

You're listening to Birthing at Home, a podcast. I'm Elsie, your host. I recorded this episode on unceded Wurundjeri land in Nam, Melbourne, Australia, where Aboriginal peoples had been birthing at home on country for thousands of years prior to the British invasion. They are the original storytellers. If you want to learn more about me, the podcast or how I can support you in achieving your home birth, be sure to check out my Instagram at birthingathome underscore. podcast. In episode 42 we hear from Kate who so beautifully walks us through her three births at home including a footling breach home birth. Kate and her partner James began connecting with the home birth community before their first baby and so naturally when the time came they chose home birth and after two magical births Kate decided to birth unassisted but supported by her loved ones. Enjoy this very very special episode everyone. Welcome Kate to Birthing at Home, a podcast. Thank you. Nice to be here. Thank you for being here at 7 .42 on a Friday night. I mean, mom life. Not many other places I'd rather be. I love talking about this. Yay. Do you want to give a bit of background for the listeners, Kate, about like who's in your family, where you're located, that kind of thing? Sure. So I'm Kate. I live with my husband, James, and we have three sons. Our oldest is four years old, Albie Forest. We've got a two year old, Judah River, and a 10 week old, Vance Ridge. And we live in the Byron Bay, Hinterland area. my goodness. What amazing names. Can you, can you, sorry, is Albie, Albie Forest? Albie, A -L -V -E -Y. Yep. Yeah, Forest, he was born in the forest, which we will get to, which is why his name is Albie Forest. my gosh, you can't see me listeners, but my drawer has dropped. my God. And what was baby number two's name, sorry? Judah, Judah River. Yeah. And I will explain maybe his name as well, but you'll get to hear it about his birth. But Judah is a biblical name and it means to praise and. What he did in his birth as the baby was just so honorable and praiseable. Like he did everything that a baby needed to do in that circumstance to make his entrance into the world. And yeah, it just gives me goosebumps. Like his name just suits him so much. And when I was in early labor with him, I was swimming in a waterfall and it made more sense to call him Judah River rather than Judah waterfall. that's so special. And what's baby number three's name? So he's advanced ridge and we live in a little town called Danoon in the Northern Rivers area of Australia on the East Coast. And in indigenous language, Danoon means ridge. Yeah. my gosh. They're such magical names. Wow. So three sons. Three warriors. And so how old is Alvie? Alvie is four. Four. And Judah? Is two. Two. And then Vance, you just said, is about 10 weeks. 10 weeks today. Yeah. my gosh. So what, like, I'm so excited. I suppose like going back, you know, to start off this episode, going back before the birth of Alvie, Yep. You know, thinking about your own like, you know, maidenhood and childhood and whatnot, like what was your understanding of pregnancy birth? Like, did you know about birthing at home? What was that like for you? Definitely didn't know about birthing at home. I was brought up pretty mainstream in a really small rural town down in country New South Wales by very beautiful standard. folk that just, yeah, seen a GP, birthed in a hospital, all that kind of jazz. And, yeah, it wasn't until I moved to the Northern rivers, I guess it really just became my world. My husband and I've been together for 13 years, but about seven years ago, I knew I just deeply, deeply needed to become a mother. I've always wanted to be a mother ever since I was a child, but that real urgency, yeah, started to. come across me. So we went about a very conscious conception journey and did all of the energetic and physical cleansing and detoxing and clearing and everything to start paving the way for a beautiful journey. And Home Birth just kind of fell into our lap because the town that's the biggest town to me where we live is Lismore and it had one of the very few birthing centers in Australia at the time. So we were just really blessed that that was where, yeah, where we kind of went. And it just felt so normal to get in contact with that midwife. I think I was six weeks pregnant when I reached out to her and I was like, hello, will you be my midwife? I was so excited. And she's like, come back to me when you're about 14 weeks. Like settle down. But yeah, so we just have a really amazing community here where it's very, it's very the norm, I guess, in a way. Yeah. Yep. I actually spoke to a midwife that was, she's no longer in Australia, but practice in Byron Bay. And she was saying that Byron Bay or like that, that area has like the highest home birth rate in Australia or something. Do you know if that's like true? I don't know if that's true, but it wouldn't surprise me. Yeah. Cause Byron hospital, you can have a home birth for free through the community hospital there. Liz Moore, you can't go, yeah, like to a birthing center in the hospital, but the midwives will do like caseload and things like that. But yeah, it's, it's very common. We've got amazing, amazing, amazing home birth midwives in this area that are so, so supportive for physiological birth and yeah, really empowered women. Yeah. Yeah. yeah. Wow. That's, I'm just so excited to hear these stories. I'm trying to like slow myself down. so, you know, so, having like the conscious conception with Alvie and whatnot. so once you become pregnant with Alvie, then you're already onto the midwife. Was there anything like, pre that conception or, you know, in those early weeks that you did in terms of, I guess, education or like, you know, getting knowledge somehow about birth and pregnancy and all of the options that you could have, especially if you've come from like sort of a mainstream upbringing. Yeah. Honestly, not really like it just I knew that I didn't want to have the births that my mom had my mom had a really traumatic birth with myself and was hospitalized for like six weeks before she had me then it was this is area and then when I was born I was taken straight away and put in a hematocrypt she didn't see me for three days the doctor or the obstetrician came in and said would you like me to take a photo of your baby so he took a Polaroid picture and went and took it to my mom because I was in a completely different like part of the hospital. It was really intense. so I just knew, like I was always told that story. and yeah, I just always knew that wasn't going to be my story. And my husband also has a bit of a phobia of hospitals. I guess you'd say like we're both, we've never been sick. We don't really go to doctors. Like we, that's just not part of our journey. So it just, I guess it was like the only option was, you know, we're having a baby and we're going home. And yeah, at the time we, we felt like we wanted support for the first. So yeah, it was reach out to the nearest birth center and yeah, that's what it was. Yeah. Wow. Do you want to start walking us through that pregnancy journey with Alfie then? Sure. So we conceived him like the moment we tried, I think he'd just been there like, waiting. Yeah, we were on a camping trip in the back of our Land Cruiser Trippie, which is like another one of our babies. And it was just all very lovely. And I knew straight away, like that night I was like, we've made a baby. And then two weeks later, I started to get what seems like maybe weird symptoms, but they're my symptoms. Like I get congested in my nose. I had a little bit of a cold, which is not at all usually me. And yeah, just started feeling like some little twinges and things. And yeah, I was so excited at the time that I took a pregnancy test. And obviously, yeah, it was confirmed and we just celebrated and yeah, we're just so high on life. And honestly, it was pretty standard. Like I had no morning sickness. I just grew a belly and just kind of went about my life. And at the time we lived on a 10 acre allotment of rainforests. So we had a really, really peaceful home space and I woke up every morning and meditated like before the sun came up and was practicing yoga every day. And I loved the job that I was working in at the time. And it was a job where I empowered women every day. So that felt really nice to as well be like a receiver when everyone started noticing that I was growing a belly and. yeah, I finished up that job though, when I was 28 weeks pregnant, just to really sink into pregnancy. And I did exactly that. I just, I bathed every day. I went from Massey Walk. So I read so many books to become empowered on birth, like, Sarah Buckley, Jane Hardwick Collins, Ina May Gaskin, like all of the wonderful homebreds. Queens and goddesses. I just really empowered myself and James and I went to, at the time, the midwife that we were with hosted like every Saturday morning. She would put on morning tea and a birth circle and it would always be a different topic and we went to so many of them just so enthusiastically. I think the first one we went to, I was four weeks pregnant and it was about communication elimination. I had no intention of doing it, but I just wanted to go and learn about everything. So yeah, we really dove deep into the world of pregnancy and I was very conscious with everything that I was eating, the energy that I was taking in, like just, yeah, just living my best life. And it, Yeah, it really paid off because his birth was just really beautiful. Was there anything, so you were, you know, reading all of the books and resources like that. Was there anything like, did you do like a hypnobirthing course or like any particular course or anything like that? Or even for James? no, we did like online free resources, but we didn't do any kind of paid courses or such, but yeah, no birthing was definitely something that we did. I had a couple of free recordings. One of them was, I think the Australian Hypnobirthing Association. and yeah, listen to those every night when I was going to sleep. and yeah, just, just really, just really trusted. I just think from the, very beginning of my mothering journey, I've just really trusted the process and just kind of let it pave its own way as such. Yeah, that's beautiful. And I guess, just briefly, like when you've, cause you're obviously in that kind of community, but you know, telling somebody like your mom who's had this experience with her own children, Did she have particular comments about that? Or did other people have any like, you know, unusual opinions or feedback about your choices? Yeah, definitely. So, yeah, like I actually had no friends that had ever had a home birth at the time. I didn't know anyone apart from the people that I was meeting through these birth circles and the midwives. But. Yeah, my parents have always been really, really supportive. They've kind of been used to me doing things that are quite against the norm for them. So yeah, they were, I think they had their, they had their hesitations, but they never voiced it. They always just trusted me and trusted the journey and yeah, trusted the education of the midwives, I guess you would say. But my, my Nan has always had something to say, God bless her, but she, she's an ex -nurse and she just, yeah, has fear around childbirth, even though she had five beautiful physiological home births herself. not home birth, sorry. Just physiological hospital births. Sorry. Like very, yeah, she still just has that, you know, that feeling in her heart, like there should be someone there that yeah, can look after my little Katie. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. wow. and in the lead up to like having Alvie, did you like, so you birth, you birthed him in the forest, I guess, like how did you, you know, because when I have had home births, I, I mean, I've, I've seen like people on YouTube and stuff give birth outdoors and it sounds really amazing, but like, for both of my babies, it was like winter and like I live in Melbourne, so I'm not like going outside to give birth, you know. But like, how did you, how did you decide that that was your space? That was your place? Well, so he actually was born indoors because my dream, the whole entire pregnancy was that we would be outside in the forest with a fire. And of course, standard when he came, he had different plans and it was the middle of winter, which I always knew, but it was pissing down rain. It was so wet. Yeah. So there was no way we were going to be able to have the fire that we wanted outside. So, yeah, he was born in like in our little cabin that was surrounded by the forest in a pool. Yeah. In a birth pool that we'd borrowed from our midwife and, yeah, that's. How he got his name from the - Yeah. I mean, yeah, still in the forest. That's still like very, yeah, cozy and magical. Do you want to walk us through like the birth of Alvi then? Sure. So, the morning that I kind of felt like things were starting, which was the day that he was born. yeah, just. woke feeling that real euphoria, like real magic around me. I was seeing everything so clearly in the birds talking to each other. Every flower looked so beautiful and we're spending a lot of time outside and yeah, nothing at all over dramatic was happening in my body. I just was, I think 40, 40 plus three or something if I recall correctly. So I knew that he had to come like pretty soon. I was feeling really ready to become a mama and my partner had finished up work two days prior and was taking his kind of maternity leave, which was nice. We'd really sunk into just each other and yeah, baby's arrival. And yeah, so we just spent the day just walking up and down our driveway, which was really steep, connecting with the trees. I think we watched a movie. We made a really simple dinner and then it must have been about 7 p or something. I was, you know, started to feel that tiny little bit of a twinge, like a bit of a period like cramp, I guess, as you would explain it. So, yeah, just message my. who's now my best friend, but my doula at the time. She lived down the road and I said, I think that maybe something's happening. Would you like to come up for a cup of tea? And she's like, yep, okay. So by the time she walked up, she walked in the door and just whispered to James, I think Kate's in labor. So we might go and run her a bath. James and I were quite naive because our midwife had always said to us like, labor can go on for days, so don't call me straight away, you know, just call me when you think that things are really happening. So yeah, we just, I hopped in the bath and Indra just poured water over my back and moved through a couple of surges that, yeah, were still very manageable at the time. And yeah, I think that was maybe at about 9 .30. So yeah, maybe like two and a half hours later, a cup of tea in a bath later. things started to ramp up and I said, I mean, it's time that we messaged our midwife and just let her know that things are happening. So we did. And she said, I'll make my way. And yeah, so she most yon'd over. And in that time, I kind of had just been bouncing on my little birth ball and moving around different parts of my house that I'd set up. I was laboring over the end of my bed and just really supported by James and Indra and. Yeah, I remember waddling down to the toilet and laboring on the toilet for a really significant amount of time. And that felt so good to my body. My midwife had suggested that I turned around and hugged the toilet bowl and she put a pillow there for me. I lost my mucus plug there and she just was putting pressure on my hips every time my surge would come. And that was the most intense part of that labor was just that initial hip opening and baby moving down. And yeah, just had that intuitive feeling to go jump in the birth pool. So I waddled back down into our bedroom and jumped into the birth pool. And I think maybe a half an hour later, really just, yeah, beautifully opened and I could feel that pressure of his head. And yeah, like just, yeah, just kind of out he came in one big shot. Yeah, wow. Yeah, lifted him up into my arms and just cried and set back into James's lap and said, wow, like I'm your mama, like, hello. And it was about five hours, I think, of active labor from start to finish. And yeah, it was a really amazing, really amazing. Wow. And what was your postpartum like with Alvie? Like, you know, for like becoming a mum. Actually, before we skip it, I always try to be mindful. At the placenta, can you tell the story of the birth of the placenta? Yeah, so I got out of the birth pool with the assistance, I think, of maybe James and my midwife and they helped me over to a comfy space that I prepared at the end of the bed and just sat there and had that initial first latch and everything. And it was really simple to birth a placenta. I just... Remember my midwife coming up to me it would have been maybe like 45 minutes later and she's like I think we might just try to birth the placenta it should be ready would you like to just squat and give me a cough and that's exactly what I did and it just yeah fell straight out into a bowl and and then we had made a cord burning box James said yeah crafted one so we did a cord burning ceremony which was really beautiful and Yeah, really paid reference to the placenta and then, yeah, we, I kind of think I had a shower. My midwife typed us into bed. I had a kiss from my daughter and she's like, see you tomorrow. Like, good night. You're now a family of three and they all just left. wow. It's just like so different to hospital births, like to put it basically, like that's just. It's like such a, you know, it's such a huge event, but at the same time, it's also a non -event. Like it's just another day, but also, you know, at the same time, it's not just another day, but like it's just without drama and just. It was so far from everything that I'd heard in my stories growing up as a child, but it was everything that I'd read in these books, like all of these home birth books that I'd read. And I was like, wow, like I did that. I'm like those women in that. book and that it can happen and if you're so intentional and conscious and put in the effort and the work or just whatever it is, like it was our beautiful magical story. And to answer your question about postpartum, it was great. I don't think I recall having any afterbirth pains. I have a really beautiful community of friends here. So we had a meal train. I had bought a chest freezer before knowing that I wanted to stock it with everything that I possibly could. I was very prepared. Like I didn't even bought like extra toothpaste, extra toilet paper. Everything was James. And I thought that we were going to do a pretty strict, like 40 day confinement. And I think in our minds, we were like, we won't be going anywhere. We won't be seeing anyone. And so we bought like triple of everything to make sure we were good to be housebound for a month. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. when. When was he born? Which month? He was born in July. In July. Yeah. Okay. And of July 2020? 2019. 2019. I was going to say like, were you also stocking up because of COVID? So he's turning five in July. Yeah. Yeah. I think COVID wasn't a thing. Just yet. I think he might've been about six months or something when that started to become a thing. Yeah. Yeah. But you were already stocked up, so you were all good. wow. like, you know, so then you've gone on to have another home birth attended by midwives and then a free birth. Yeah. Like, did you have like, I guess, like, how did how did that initial initiation into motherhood with having had such an amazing birth? Like, how did that help you to become a mother? Like, you know, like, how did you feel in yourself? Do you remember those initial like? definitely. I remember my midwife even just like two hours after birth, she said to me, so do you still want to have those five kids? And I was like, hell yes. Like I. Yeah, bringing on if that's what birth is. But yeah, it definitely has fueled me. Like I think, as I said, I've always wanted to be a mum, but it just really solidified that I think everything in me is just made to be a mother. Like my body is made to do this. My mindset is made to do this. Like it's, yeah, it's really a big. part of who I am and my purpose here on this earth, I think is my mother in role and sharing with other people as well. And James feels very much the same. Like he loves sharing our birth stories with other dads, just to really empower them because it's not spoken about enough between the men, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And like, so this is, so the birth with Judah River. Yeah. This is how I reached out to you. And as a spoiler alert to everyone listening to this podcast, although it'll be in the title probably, so it won't be that much of a spoiler, but Judah was born at home, breech. He was, fully breech, so he's being birthed. Yeah. I guess that like, that's why I'm so excited because I haven't had a breech home birth. story yet. So you're the first one. And like, like, you know, thinking about what you just said is like the stories are so, so important. And I love, you know, seeing on Instagram, like babies being born, Breach, because like in your regular kind of mainstream circles, if you say that you have a Breach baby, people are automatically thinking, my God. emergency C -section, C -section, and can you like imagine how many babies in the world are actually planned C -sections because they're breached? So this story, Kay, is just. So we would have been advised to have had to go to a hospital had we have had a span and our midwife knew that, yeah, she. wouldn't legally have been able to support us. So it was very thankful. Yeah. Very grateful that we have had very, low intervention care and yeah, never really, I'd never had any cervical checks or anything like that in any of my pregnancies. yeah, like didn't have an ultrasound leading up to Judah's birth. So we just had no, we literally had no idea. And even, my midwife was, you know, palpitating and trying to feel, but she could never really sense where he was. And it suits his personality because yeah, he's just a very, he's a mover and a groover. So you probably just never sat in one place. I put it down to the fact that I jumped in a really, really cold waterfall the morning before I birthed him. And I was like, I wonder whether I flipped him upside down because he was so cold. Such a shock. Yeah. Yeah, but yes, it was just our biggest blessing that we just didn't know because there would have been, I think, a lot of fear put onto me and other decisions might have perhaps have been made. So, yeah. So going into the pregnancy with Judah, no questions asked. Another home birth, please sign me up. Very much so. Yeah. Another conscious conception, another. Yeah, just another home birth. We were in a different house at this time though. We had moved. So yeah, we were living in a town about a half an hour away from our old home. And our midwife that we had was sort of starting to slow down her practice. And yeah, we chose to go with a different midwife this time, although we absolutely loved our first midwife. It just, yeah, didn't align for the second birth. So we had a different midwife in a different home. But it's still a homebody. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And did you do anything differently with the pregnancy with Judah compared to Alvie? No, no, really similar actually. Just a lot of hypnotherapy and a lot of yoga, walking. I obviously I wasn't working. I am yet just a stay at home mom ever since having Alvie. So I had in ways a bit more time up my hand. Yeah, I sleep but no, just. Yep. Went about it the same. Just screw baby. Yeah. And did you have any ideas about things that you might, you know, considering with Alvie, it was about five hours, right? So did you have in your mind like things you might like to try out that are different or like do the same thing in terms of like labor and birth? Just pausing here, everyone, to thank the June sponsor of the podcast, which is Earthy Birth. If there is one thing that has been missing from the home birth scene, it is aesthetically pleasing birth pools until now. Earthy Birth is a small family owned business and they're proud to offer professional quality off -white birth pools made from thick eco PVC and are designed for 40 plus uses. That's a lot of home births guys. They also offer stunning disposable floor length liners uniquely designed so that they protect the whole pool and that they don't slip off into the pool. Not only that, the liners come with optional artistic designs printed on the base to make your birth space even more beautiful. Earthy Birth also stocks plenty of other home birth supplies such as hoses, tap adapters, pumps, robozos, birth combs, fairy lights and much more, all in gorgeous earthy tones. They offer both purchase and hire with free shipping Australia wide for all orders over $50. Visit earthybirth .com .au today. Thanks so much, Earthy Birth, and enjoy the rest of this episode, everybody. Pretty much the same thing because what worked worked and it was very hands off with Albie. Like we didn't do any, yeah, no pain man, snow, tens machines, nothing like that. It was just, I just used hot water as my pain relief in the bath. And yeah, that was the same intention. I really thought the labour was going to be a lot quicker because yeah, you so often hear that labour. progress is quicker with consecutive pregnancies, but I think because he was breached, so Judah's labor was about five hours as well, I think it would have been quicker had he have been head first, but it just took him that little bit more time to get down and open with his legs. And did you, did your start of labor, like, was that different to our? Honestly, literally, Nellie, the exact same story. It was like the same time at night. So we'd washed up, you know, from dinner, we sat down to relax after putting Albie to bed. And I was like, few little period creams. Here we go. Text my, you know, my best friend. And I was, who was at Albie's birth. And I was like, I think we're on. Would you like to make your way out for that cover? So yeah, she came out and. just really, really similar experience. We had, you know, a beautiful birth altar that I just sat near on my ball. Yeah. People were taking turns holding my hips when they would open. And yeah, at the last kind of half an hour, I got into the pool, but I did have one moment of kind of like, I feel like I've never ever questioned my ability to birth. I've never kind of ever had any fears of like, I can't do this or that's just never crossed my mind. Like I've never had that in my life or I can't handle the pain or anything. But during judas labor, I was like, I feel like I'm in transition, but I can't feel the pressure of the head. But at the time I just couldn't, I couldn't really speak that out loud. Like I very much go internal when I'm in labor and I don't talk, I don't like being spoken to. I just, focus and yeah it wasn't until the moment that I was in the pool just thinking why do I feel like I'm not progressing but I really really feel like this these surges are quite intense so I put my hand up there to see what was going on and I just remember saying I can feel fingers and the midwives just said to each other it's breach and they were sitting with They were sitting in like a whole different room at the time, but then you could feel the tone of the room change for a few minutes. It definitely, yeah, it definitely changed. So she came over and just said, okay, I think yeah, baby's breach. She'd never attended a breach home birth before because it's obviously. So they kind of just went and had like a couple little second meeting and obviously. reconvened and came back over and said, we think that it might be best if you get yourself out of the birth pool. Do you feel comfortable? And in that moment, I just, I just leaped out of the birth pool. I have no idea how, because I had a foot basically, you know, halfway out of my vagina, but I leaped out of the birth pool and Yeah, it was more recommended that I get onto my knees. Apparently it's easier to birth a breech baby if you're on in that position. Yeah. So I got onto my knees. They put some towels under my knees to make me a little bit more comfy. I held onto my midwife's shoulders. She was sitting in front of me. And yeah, at this point, one of Judah's foot was already out. And yeah, basically we just let him do the rest. So then he shimmied his other little foot out. And the best part of all was this part. Like he, he started peddling his feet like he was on a bike to shimmy his body down and out. It is amazing. So we have a pretty dodgy video because it was, you know, it was dark and at night time and just on a night phone, but watching him peddle his feet and his little torso just keeps shimmying down. It was amazing. It was about six minutes from the moment I got out of the pool to the moment he was. fully out of my body. But yeah, you see the feet come, the torso come and then at the very last minute his head just comes out and yeah, it was really amazing. And in that moment, like afterwards in reflection, my midwife was like, I wasn't fearful when I seen him moving his feet up and down and he had really good color. She said that where the fear comes in with people birthing and breech babies is the umbilical cord. can get pushed against baby's body and your cervical wall and then they lose oxygen. But that wasn't obviously the case for us. It was really simple, really amazing. And yeah, then as soon as he was out, he just, he gave out a beautiful little cry. I picked him up, he latched straight away and it was just like any other beautiful birth. Just, yeah, he decided to jump into the world and it's very much a testament to his personality. And I think that, All of my kids have showcased that so far. Like Alvie, my oldest is like such a, he's just really calculated and varied by the book, which his birth was like standard textbook home birth. And then Judah, he's just, very spirited and. It just makes sense that he jumped into the world and we're like he was running from the moment he came in and he just hasn't stopped like he was running at 10 months old and like yeah. But it was amazing and birth in his placenta was very simple as well. It was just kind of a little cough into a beautiful bowl. We did the cord burning ceremony again and we all just kind of sat around and we were like wow a footling breach at home that's amazing. Was Alvi present at the birth of Judah? He most definitely was. So we checked in with him heaps during the pregnancy and we were like, do you want to be their body? And he really did. So he was two and two months. And yeah, he was in the arms of my best friend just watching on so beautifully. And then as soon as Judah was born, he came and sat down right next to us and put a little hand on his head and yeah, and he still thinks about the birth. Yeah. That's so beautiful. Like, you know, when you've felt those little fingers, do you remember, like, was there a sense of fear from you? Did you feel like you had like a fear like, like, what am I feeling? Like, especially when they've said, it's like, it's, you're going to have a breach baby. Like, like, how did you feel? I didn't. My husband definitely did and I could feel that on him. I could feel him behind me and just his energy had really shifted in that moment and I think I could feel how white he was in his color without even looking at him. But yeah, for me, I was just so like, we're here, we're in it, like there's nothing we can do anyway. Even if someone was to call an ambulance, we're 25 minutes from town, from a hospital, like we're, baby's already a quarter of the way out. Like we've just, we're just got to do it. Like this is our journey and I just had full trust and yeah, just full knowing that it was just all going to be okay. And it was. Yeah. And like the, you know, sorry, in Australia, you know, a mid wife, attending a planned breach birth at home is not really happening because they say, the authorities say that it's safer to be in hospital. And so, you know, if you're at home, that's, you know, out of your school of practice against XYZ. And I think. Like it's so frustrating to me because I, you know, listen to the birthing instincts podcast and, you know, I feel like I absorb a lot of breach birth information. and it's just so sad that as a variation of normal, it's not even considered a variation of normal, but it is a variation of normal that the skills for midwives to, you know, safely, you know, have those skills for breach births. Like, like that's amazing that, you know, they felt, you know, I'm not sure if confident would be the word, but like they weren't calling the ambulance being like, holy heck, get us out of this situation. This is an emergency kind of thing. Cause it could have gone like that as well, you know? And I think that's, that's a testament to how amazing your midwives clearly. are were, that they trusted that this was just going to happen. Like that's amazing. They definitely trusted, but they did call the ambulance. I didn't know. I had no idea because I think they obviously didn't want to interfere in anyone in the room, but apparently, The ambulance turned up obviously after I'd already birthed him and it was during COVID times and they were outside and I only found out like a couple of weeks maybe after the or whenever it was I was having like the you know, catch up with them with what the debrief. Yeah and she's like they turned up in these big alien suits because it was the middle of COVID with like these huge big like mask like helmets on and these big white suits and she's like we just laughed at them and said you can go home now baby's born. This mama, trust me, she does not want you coming in her house looking like that for one and like no one needs you anymore. So basically be gone. But yeah, they did call them because it is part of their, yeah, if they had enough, they could have obviously gotten into a lot of trouble, I think. So yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm very appreciative of you sharing the story because like, Yeah. You just don't hear it in Australia. No, no. And like the backup midwife, she had done some, like work experience, I guess you'd call it in Papua New Guinea, where she said that breach is so common over there. Like very, very, very common. I'm not sure of the percentage, but I remember it being really high. So she had attended numerous breach births in the past and she never actually even stood. stepped foot into the room that I was birthing in, but I think she must have really like stood as a pillar of wisdom for the main midwife during that time. And maybe she had whispered to her like, I've been at Breach, like, everything's okay, like, let's just see how this unfolds. And yeah, yeah, again, just, just trusting. I think we just have really trusting women. Yeah. And you know, like, so. Like in terms of intensity wise and as far as surges go. You know, I obviously have only had head down babies, but like how, you know, can you remember like the difference in intensity between Alvi and Judah or do you feel that they felt somewhat similar? They felt somewhat similar because obviously, yeah, I got that like ring of fire feeling with Alvi's head as it was coming out, but because he came out in just one big like, push basically it yeah, it just kind of felt like that and then it was gone like the next minute and I was so blessed that I did. I only had a tiny graze from Albie. Like I just, my body just opened so beautifully and yeah, with Judas, I feel like I didn't feel that burning fire feeling until probably like his hips. were coming out. Yeah. I guess that might've been the wider part of his body. And then I was kind of like, yeah. Like this is intense, but I've never ever been anything that I feel like I hadn't been able to just really like grunt and breathe through. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Just like, and those little legs. my gosh. Do you have pictures? Yeah. I have pictures. That's incredible. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for sharing that. And so then, so you've had a breach. What does that mean then for, so you, you've had a free birth with Vance. I guess, do you want to? talk us through a little bit about that decision making process. Like, so you've had two amazing home births with midwives. What inspired you to then have a free birth? Well, I guess like numerous reasons, but predominantly it was just that I felt like, bless my midwives, they're amazing. But I feel like they really didn't do much in either of my pregnancies. Like the first one in particular, she just sat there on the bed, like this beautiful guardian angel just kind of watching. Like when she first arrived to the home, like she didn't even make herself known. She just, you know, waltzed in and sat there. And second time around as well. And like every time I was having like appointments throughout my pregnancy, which I think with Judah, for example, was only like four or five times. Like I had. such minimal and we just ended up talking about sauerkraut and different things like we shared recipes. We weren't actually like, I just didn't have anything that I needed to know. I didn't have any questions. I'm just not that way inclined. Generally. I kind of always do things from my own heart rather than like seeking external validation or answers. yeah. So when it came to falling pregnant again, I had, really immersed myself. I probably should have mentioned as well, I had done the Free Birth Society course prior to birth in Judah. So I was very aware of like women free birthing and the whole movement and everything. And I don't really like love the labeling that goes on with it. But I was just like, that feels right. Like that to me feels like how it should be. I just want to give birth with my best friends and my husband and my kids. Like I don't. I don't need someone because it in my other two backs without standing naive, but I never had needed anyone. So I just trusted I wouldn't need someone again. Or if I did, I would know and I would call an ambulance or whenever we've needed. And then we would, you know, waltz off to the hospital. But yeah, just didn't feel like I needed anyone. Also, it was really big financially. Like we just didn't have $6 ,000 to pay for a midwife. And although I feel like I'm quite friendly with a lot of the midwives and just the birthing community in the area and someone probably would have done me a bit of a deal here or there. Like it just, yeah, it just didn't at all feel right. I just, yeah, I knew I wanted to have my best friend because she'd been at my two previous births. So she was, she was predominantly going to be there just to support my kids. And then it was just going to be James and I am. Yeah. Yeah. I think, yeah, for like, I do genuinely wonder if home birth midwives were way more accessible, like how many women would be able to, you know, have that option of, you know, somebody to sit in the spare room for 12 hours, you know, like, and say, and not be hurt, you know, not be hurt, not be seen kind of thing. But like, yeah, it's. pretty, it's a pretty expensive thing to be doing to have someone sit in the room next door and not do anything and you know, and that's not, that's what you want. Like, yeah. Yeah. And they're worth every penny. Like, I mean, I mean, I know for my friendship circle, like my girlfriends that have had midwives and had home births, like some of them have really needed and wanted and loved their midwives and loved asking the questions and loved having them. check their progress and all the things, but yeah, for me, it was just, it just felt really unnecessary. Yeah. I wish I had a photo, but, like, yeah, like for my second home birth, I literally wrote on a paper, don't talk. I don't want to see you in the politest way possible. Yeah, 100%. So you did the Free Birth Society course before Judah. Did you, I've heard like mixed reviews on it. What was your feeling about the course? I really liked it. I thought, yeah, I mean, it's very, it's very free birth. driven, obviously. In the politest way, like they very much believe that free birth is the best way. But I don't, I just believe that everyone should birth the way that they feel most comfortable. But I think that the resources and the information that they have accessible on there is really empowering. Like if you don't know much about Macronium or whatever it is. If you're not a birth junkie like me that listens to every podcast and all the things like you, yeah, like it'd be really handy for someone that, that wanted a lot more information that didn't have access to a really supportive midwife or, you know, birth worker or something like that. So, yeah. Did you do, you know, after Judah, so then you decide that you're going to have a free birth. Did you do any? other, you know, education or like stuff like that. Not on birth, no. I feel like it was more around like accessing those limiting beliefs that I had. So obviously there are fears that come up when you are not going to have any. anything, you know, like any intervention in the pregnancy, anyone in your space. So working through those, I feel like it was a lot more of a journey of like setting really firm boundaries, like learning how to put more boundaries in place with friendships and family and how much like energy I was giving to other people. And yeah, it was a lot more like inner work. Yeah. For his pregnancy rather than any more information about birth. I feel like I kind of had already had my birth knowledge up to date. Yeah. Did you have any specific fears or concerns about breach considering you'd had a breach? I'm not sure like what the stats are on like breach and repeat breach, but did you have anything like that? I had heard somewhere that once you have a breach, you're more inclined to have more. So it did cross my mind, like, will everything be okay? But then again, just coming back to, I had a great breach birth at home. Why can't I do it again? Like I just always just kept coming back to trust if there was ever anything that, yeah, Rose and, James took a bit more kind of. finding his confidence with not having a midwife around. Like, so it was a lot of working alongside him as well to be like, well, what fears have you got and how can we make you more comfortable in the birth space? And yeah. Yeah. What was your pregnancy like with Vance then? So it was a bit more physically challenging actually. No morning sickness or anything still, but I just, My husband was working heaps at the beginning of the pregnancy. So I think like that was taking a bit of a toll for a while there until he kind of cut back his hours and running after two very busy boys. Yeah. And then at the end of the pregnancy, we were in the peak of summer and it was a hot summer. It was yeah, like really unforgiving. And I just felt so heavy and hot. So we spent a lot of time going to the. beach or to the waterfalls. I was eating a lot of ice and frozen oranges and just trying to keep cool because yeah, physically my body definitely seemed to struggle a bit more, which he ended up being about a kilo heavier than like my other two boys. So yeah, I guess I'm pretty small framed person. Like an extra kilo is a big weight for my little legs to carry. But yes, I definitely feel like. It was a bit more challenging and it took a lot more motivation to get out and to move my body and things like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. how many, how heavy was, Alvie and Judah then? 3 .1 and 3 .2 and Vance was four kilos. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. and so you were planning to have your, friend there who was also your doula for Alvie and Judah and your husband and you. Yeah. And I invited my other best friend as well. She is like a second mum to my kids and I just really wanted her to be in my space. She's got four beautiful children of her own. And I thought what an honor to invite her to be at my birth and take some photos and just be there for my kids. Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful. Did the labor start in a similar way to Judah and Alvie? No, very different. Such a wild cut. Such a wild cut. I was really shocked and I was a lot more pregnant so I was nearly 42 weeks. Wow. Yeah, I started to really feel that pressure in my butt like the night before and I said to my girlfriends, I'm like, I just want this baby to come soon because I just feel like so much pressure. And anyway, so I kept going to bed every night thinking, damn it, it's not going to happen tonight because it hasn't progressed at like that 7pm kind of time or whatever it was. Anyway, so the night that Vince came, I had had a really good sleep until about 3am and my little son Judah came into our bed with us and he jumped in and normally he will come and jump into our bed and just go straight back to sleep. But he jumped in and then just kept staring at me and I was like, hey buddy. And I think I just knew I was like, baby's baby must be coming and he knows. anyway, I said, well, my mama's just got to do a wee like wait here. I'll, I'll be right back. And I went to the toilet and, I realized that my waters were leaking and I got so excited. This was at about 3 AM in the morning. I'd never had my waters leak in either of my other two pregnancies. They always just burst like as I was giving birth. Yeah. So I got super excited, but I thought, you know, this can go on for days. So I'll go and I'll get an adult nappy and I'll get a towel and I'll go back. to bed. So that's what I did and I jumped back into bed with Judah and I said, baby's coming and you know, let's get some sleep so that we're rested for when baby decides to come. And it took me, you know, about an hour or two to get him back to sleep, but I just lied there with him and it must have been about 5 a I got up and I was like, I just can't sleep. So Judah's gone back to sleep, but I need to just get up and have some space before the rest of the house. And you know, the birds and everything wake up and so I went out to the lounge room and thought, you know, just in case we're on, I'll start making my little nest. So I put a sheepskin down on the lounge room floor and I lit some candles and put some incense on and then my birth playlist and you know, just like got into my zone and started moving my hips and then James woke up and said, is baby coming? Do you think babe? And I was like, yeah, I'm pretty sure they'll. come today, like I've never had my waters leaked so this seems pretty exciting. So, yeah, it must have been about 5 .30 I sent a text to my two girlfriends and said, this is what's going on, nothing else is happening but if you can just prepare your day in case I need you, I'd appreciate it because they've got six kids between them. And they got a text back immediately and they were just like, we're ready, like you just let us know when we can come. And, Yeah, my best friend, Indra, she said, I just want to see Elvis face when Alfie wakes up because she knew how excited he was to be at the birth again. And I said, why don't you just like have a shower and come out? Because if things progress, they'll probably progress quickly. And it'd be nice if someone's here to make breakfast for the kids when they wake up. And so she said, I'll just have a shower and I'll come out. And she's about a 45 minute drive. So yeah, by the time she got here, it was, a quarter past seven, I think I looked at the clock and I seen when they walked in the door and they just kind of like angelically came in and started, you know, playing with the kids and gave both James and I a kiss and a cuddle and just to backtrack a tiny bit for about an hour before that, I'd had maybe in that time, like five little surges that felt pretty mild, but I was like, yeah, like things will start happening. And I just kept like, opening my hands and relaxing my body and every time one would come I was like that felt so good like that was amazing like baby's coming soon yeah and just yeah put a really positive like twist on it because I feel like in my previous two births I'd really like I'd held on to someone's hand and I'd really clenched hard whereas this birth I was all about like loosening relaxing opening and that that really made a huge difference, I think. Anyway, so yeah, I've had about five searches. They were really quite mild to move through. Like I just, yeah, move through them with James. And then I might've had maybe one or two more over the course of probably 15 minutes when the girls were there. And then. and then I got up and went to the toilet and I lost my mucus plug on the toilet and I was like, wow, we're close. I might just put my hand up and see like how close we are. I was by myself at this stage and I put my hand up there and I was like, wow, I can feel the head, which I was so excited about because at least it wasn't fate, you know. Anyway, so I waddled back out to the lounge room floor, not telling anyone what I just felt, but Indra was setting up the tripod because she knew I really wanted to record the birth. Yeah. And I just, I looked at her and I just said, Alvie, and she knew exactly what that meant. And it was basically like, get my kids and get them over here right now. And all of a sudden I just felt that fetal ejection take over. And instead of that kind of like, you know, groaning through a surge, it was more that like, you know, you kind of get restricted in, in your voice. Like it really changes from that deep groaning to a restricted kind of, yeah, like almost like, I can't control it. And yeah, like as soon as they basically sat down, The next surge, his head came out and I just held it with my hand. James was supporting me from behind. I was just on one knee and then had like one foot on the ground. If that makes any sense, I'll share a photo. But yeah, and I just like held his head for maybe like 30 seconds to a minute while, you know, he just opened really beautifully. And then the next surge, he came straight out into James's arms and... up into my chest and it was all in a matter of like an hour and 15 minutes while we were just kind of making breakfast. And yeah, the kids were sitting in front of me both in the laps of two of my bestest friends and my husband behind me and I was just crying thinking like, how can this be so darn beautiful and so easy and kind of peaceful and seamless? Like I just gave birth while I'm looking into the eyes of my children and my best friends. Like. It was really amazing. It was yeah, it was really dreamy and then just the ideal afterwards situation as well. Like I just, I birthed the placenta, like again, very similar to how I have in both of my births. Jesse, my angel best friend is like pigs. picked up the washing and put a load of washing on. She went and like opened all the blinds to let the light in and made the beds and just kind of tinkered around the house so that everything was just really beautiful. I had, you know, tea brought to me and like food and all kinds of things and just sat there looking at my beautiful baby like how it took me a couple of hours actually. I think it was about three hours later. I just burst into tears and everyone was like. Are you alright, darling? Like, what are you feeling? And I was just like so overwhelmed with joy and that it was just exactly how I imagined and it was 10 months of, yeah, really deep inner work to get to that place of really trusting, trusting, you know, growing a baby and that everything was okay and that birthing them was going to be beautiful and okay and yeah, it was, it was really magical. It just - Like when you were describing like that, you know, she opened the curtains and just bring you tea and like, that's heaven. It was heavenly. And it was, it's funny cause you'd think it was kind of out of a movie in a way. Like my girl, one of my other girlfriends had gifted me a birthing gown. So I was wearing this really pretty birthing gown. My two best friends are there wearing these beautiful floral dresses and they were like, it just so happened that. We just, because it was the morning, we both put on a nice dress. They're like, if it was the middle of the night, we probably would have come in like a t -shirt and a shorts, but it just so happened that we both felt like putting on something pretty. And so we're all just there like we're having this beautiful bloody tea party. But it was just a standard day of just me having a baby. And yeah, it was. It was really something else. Like it was one of those experiences you just wish that you could sell it, that people could experience it. And it was a little bit funny. I feel like I have to tell this part of the story because I've never pooed during birth before until Vance. And I had a little poo come out when I was like, maybe when I was birth in his head and my boys thought it was hilarious. Like, Mum pooed on the lounge room floor. It's, you know, it's still what they refer to now when everyone's like, how was Vance's birth? And they're like, mama did a poo in the lounge room. So like that really lightens like the whole mood as well, because like, yeah, it was like this really beautiful, like, you know, aesthetic, beautiful experience. But then there was also like the reality of like poo. that's so funny. Like. And that's like a detail that they're never going to forget. Literally. Yeah. And they've told numerous people, like, which I'm like, yeah, people poo sometimes. That's right. Mama had a baby. And like, yeah, gently remind them of that. But, yeah, like to know now that like my four year old son has been a two amazing homebets. I'm like, what a start to your life. Like. What kind of man are you going to grow into and how supportive of a partner and husband or like whatever he chooses in his life, but like, wow. Just like, and I mean, that's, that's the, the power of birth, you know, because yeah, like as we've, as we've already reflected, like your, how you came into the world. is very, very different to how your children have come into the world. And like Alvie, Alvie's been to more births and plenty of people and he's four years old. I think my grandfather went to like one of his children's births and he's got five kids. Like he just dropped grandma off at the door. Just like, it's really. you know, and to like, I've had this sort of ongoing reflection as well that, you know, I have two boys and I always thought that, you know, like I'd have a girl that, you know, I'd be able to like pass that, you know, the red thread kind of thing. And so thinking like, okay, well now I have two boys. So like, what does this, what does this mean? Like, you know, in the future, like how will their children be born? Is it like, do I, Like, I don't really know if I have any influence over that, but like, I just really hope, you know, we have this book. I forget who it's written by, but I'll put it in the description. Birth is Magic and it's a home birth children's book. And it took a bit of convincing to get Murphy, who's four, to like, let me to read it. But now he requests it. and he is like, like where's, where's this beard and like this body beard and like, you know, where's this bit where she's playing on the bed and, like, what a gift because they are going to go into, you know, their teenage years, their adulthood, knowing something that is not, you know, mainstream, you know, like it opens their mind, it opens their eyes. And even if that's not. path that, you know, if they have, you know, children someday, even if that's not how they're brought into the world, I just think like, it says something about the values you like, just like to see physiological birth. The birth that you've like just shared with us, like, I, I too, like, I don't believe that. I have finished having kids. Like I definitely feel like for me as well, there's a daughter in my life. She just hasn't come yet. But when I was having some really big feelings around having three boys and talking it through with a girlfriend of mine, she was like, I just want to remind you, like it takes a queen to raise kings. And I was like, wow, like that just struck me so hard because yes. Like we are really responsible and it's a real honor now to think I am a mom of boys and for the same as you, I hope like it's such a privilege to be raising boys that are safe and like happy to show their emotions and to be able to comfortably talk with like women when they're teenagers about menstruation and all kinds of things that I feel like we're so shamed upon even for my brother and my Yep. Boys that I went to school with and it was also funny and yuck or whatever the words were to use to describe things. And yeah, like to know that we are such pivotal like anchors in changing our future generation of gentlemen is like such a privilege. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, I think that's, that's what it boils down to is that yeah, like generational change and. setting society. I mean, it'd be nice if Home Birth like rises up. But like, yeah, like that's, I just think like there's so, so much, so much horrible stuff happening in the world, but like the power of birth, like I don't think people understand. And I think, you know, listening to these stories that you've shared today, like, you know, I have a colleague, and it was sort of like a word of mouth thing that, you know, she's pregnant and, she definitely won't be listening to this podcast by the way, but, she, she was overheard to be saying to somebody else that birth is gross and she's dreading doing it because yeah. you know, she is pregnant, so she's going to be doing it. and I just think how could you possibly call what you've just shared with us today gross? That is just like the most magical, powerful, beautiful thing ever. Yeah. And that was probably one of the biggest things that like shocked me the most when I've had my kids, especially when I had Albie was the way that James looked at me. post -birth because you get so many stories of guys that say, you know, really crude things like it'll never be the same again or whatever, you know, they say some generation of men but like James has never looked at me the way that he looked at me before after I birthed Albie. Like he looked at me like I was just his goddess and like was so attracted to me and couldn't give his hands off me and like just wanted to like just nurture me and honor me and I was Really quiet, like not blown away because he is just such a wonderful man anyway, but like it was just really like affirming to wow, like we really, really changed something on a really deep level here because as you said, like this is a magical, beautiful experience. Like it's not yuck, it's not yeah, anything like we just yeah. Yeah. I can't even put words to it. It's like. Wow, three like incredible birth stories. Thank you again so much for sharing with me. Thank you for having me. Did you have like any like last words or anything else you wanted to add that we haven't talked about or anything like that? I probably hate when we hang up, but I just think that I just like I really just want to reiterate like to trust like just to come back to trust and. Like my message I think would be to women like turn off the noise, like get off social media, like get it, I don't know, just step away from whatever it is that's noisy in your life and just come back to like what feels right in your heart. Like what does your intuition say? Because the louder that that speaks, the more, yeah, the more messages you receive from your baby, from your body, it's... Yeah, and birth can be just bloody wonderful. Prosperity and healing can be bloody wonderful. Yeah, I just love it and I can't wait to do it again. Thank you so much, Kate. Thank you.