Two family centred homebirths after a hospital birth || Bek's birth of Roman (2021) & Ivana (2024) at home (Victoria)

This week's episode is shared today by Bek. After researching and choosing private midwifery care in her first pregnancy for a planned hospital birth, Bek shares today about her 2 subsequent home births. It is a beautiful conversation about pregnancy, birth, continuity of care, challenges in pregnancy, and having children present during birth. 

I really liked Bek’s reflection of feeling like she COULD birth alone, but then asking herself the question if she actually WANTED to birth alone.

Resources: 

• Fear Free Childbirth Podcast https://www.fearfreechildbirth.com/podcast/fear-free-childbirth-podcast/
• The Impact of Light in Labour https://www.melaniethemidwife.com/podcasts/the-great-birth-rebellion/episodes/2148625925
• 10 Moons by Jane Hardwicke Collings https://janehardwickecollings.com/product/ten-moons-the-inner-journey-of-pregnancy/
• Bek's husband 'Lloyd's' episode https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/birthing-at-home-a-podcast/id1705684880?i=1000636382306

Learn more about me, my offers as a doula & the podcast here: https://www.birthingathome.com.au

Chapters

• 9:18 Seeking Private Midwifery Care and Home Birth
• 47:45 The Birth of Roman at Home
• 1:13:17 The Birth of Ivana at Home
• 1:17:33 Having siblings at birth

Transcript

0:02

You're listening to Birthing at Home, a podcast. I'm Elsie, your host. I recorded this episode on unceded Wurundjeri land in Nam, Melbourne, Australia, where Aboriginal peoples had been birthing at home, on country, for thousands of years prior to the British invasion. They are the original storytellers. If you want to learn more about me, the podcast, or how I can support you in achieving your home birth, be sure to check out my Instagram at Birthing at Home, underscore a podcast. Episode 41 is shared today by Beck. After researching and choosing private midwifery care in her first pregnancy for a planned hospital birth, Beck shares today about her two subsequent home births. It's a beautiful conversation about pregnancy birth, continuity of care, challenges in pregnancy, and having children present during birth. I really liked Beck's reflection of feeling like she could birth alone. but then asking herself the question if she actually wanted to birth alone. In addition, Beck's husband, Lloyd, also shared his perspective as a partner supporting birth at home. This episode is linked in the episode description. And in the theme of continuity of care, from December, 2024, I'll start offering doula or birth attendant support for births at home. So if you're in Melbourne looking for continuity and space holding that Beck spoke so beautifully about. please contact me via my website birthingathome .com .au or Instagram. Enjoy guys. Welcome back to Birthing at Home, a podcast. Thanks Elsie. So excited to be here. Thank you. Thank you for joining me on Saturday morning. And it's almost like finally, because I recorded with your husband, Lloyd, like I think the Instagram post says 27 weeks ago. from when we're recording today. So however many weeks, 27 weeks ago were, it was a while ago. It was a while ago. I was definitely well and truly pregnant still with the third. Yeah. Yep. Yep. And so we were, Yeah. I remember that he said, like Beck would be keen to chat about her story, like from her perspective as well. And then we decided to wait until baby number three was here and now baby number three is here. Before I like give too many details away. Do you want to give a bit of an intro to yourself? Like who you are, who's in your family, where you're located, that kind of thing. Yeah. So my name obviously Rebecca, born in Melbourne. Lloyd and I have lived here around the Dandenong Ranges for the first sort of five years of our relationship. We've had our first son and our second son here. We've moved off to the coast of New South Wales, had a couple of years there and decided to come home again because it just wasn't home for us. We're very happy to be back and we got here. We arrived back in Melbourne just before the birth of our third baby. So we've got a, our first born son is named Marek, he's five. We have a three year old whose name's Roman and Ivana is our daughter. So we've got a beautiful wholesome little family of three now and we are busy. Yeah. my gosh. I'm, I feel like I'm busy with two, but like three, like, holy moly. It is all subject to where you're at, isn't it? Yeah. my god. So busy. You couldn't even fathom what else you could do with your time to realise how much more time you had and then three is the same. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All the things you can do. Yeah. Constantly being humbled. Constantly being humbled. So yeah. Yeah. We've had a, had a busy, you know, sort of last, I'd say three years. It's been pretty, pretty busy life and we're ready to, ready to settle back into some calmness and some groundiness back in Melbourne again. I would like to invite that into my own life. Yes, I know. Yeah, literally. Yep. And so is Marek the eldest, sorry, or Roman? Marek's the eldest. So Marek, where was he born? He was born at the Anglos Hospital in Ventry Galley. Okay. So that was 2019. He was born in February. Yeah. His birth, well his pregnancy and birth was started off very similar to many many pregnancies in Australia. We fell pregnant, we tested positive then had to go to the doctor to confirm that that was actually correct. Yeah. The doctor offered the suggestions of Casey Hospital or Furniture Girlie Hospital. And that was it on our journey. We started because what other options are there? That was what was handed over to us. And yeah. Do you remember when the doctor is like saying that to you? Was there sort of like any conversation about what those options meant? Do you remember any like details? Yeah, there's no, you know, that's the thing now looking back there is. There's no details. This is what you do. Yeah. And this is what your options are. They, you just go to the hospital. Well, you know, you book yourself in and then you go and see whoever you see for your appointments and on your way you go. Yeah. They'll sort out the rest for you. Yeah. So I remember walking out of there, incredibly excited. And incredibly, you know, thinking, this is the first decision I have to make as a mother, which hospital am I going to be? Yeah. It's a rite of passage, right? Yeah, literally that was, and then I was so confused. I was like, okay, but I've got all these questions then what's going to happen and who am I going to see in these appointments and who's going to be there? And all of a sudden I was like, okay, well, we're just going to find this out, you know, let me get there and it'll all be fine. And yeah, on we go. and so I think like, thinking back, did you also have a private midwife in this hospital model of care that you went through? I did. Yeah. So I guess like going back a little bit, your understanding before, like of birth and like even home birth, like did, were any of these like things in your mind? Yeah. So I guess a little. It's a really good point because I think whenever you talk to a woman about her birthing choices or how she got to the decision she made, it really stems back to your own birth in a sense and how you've been raised to perceive birth, what your thoughts are on birth, the women around you, your mothers, your sisters, aunties, how they've birthed and what you've just taken on and absorbed as a child. So my mother had three... natural hospital births and I say natural as in vaginal births, no elective caesareans. However, they weren't natural in the sense that some were induced, you know, there was lots of monitoring, all those things were also happening. But my mum always imprinted a beautiful image of birth on me. That you just birth is birth and it's... can and will just happen. Yes, it's intense and yes, you may feel pain, but once that baby's here, it's here and it's done. You know, there was this just very relaxed air of, of course, this is just how you do it. And yes, breastfeeding, that's just what you do. You know, there was, I was very, I think blessed in that sense that I hadn't, didn't have to work through or navigate the confusing feelings of. But everyone in my family just has C sections or formula feeds. So, yeah. Giving that as a bit of a starting point, I think, you know, that set me up for when I did fall pregnant. I already had a strong belief that I just can do this naturally. I don't need anything else. I don't want to, have, you know, I don't want to have a C section. I want to experience this feeling. so. All of that was sort of imprinted within me on a very basic level, I guess, you know, I think I was definitely that woman that said, I want a natural birth, but really had no idea what was going to be involved to get it. And that was the whole story of Marek's pregnancy is realizing that wanting a natural birth and then realizing what that entailed and how to get to it. Yeah. It's a whole other story. Yeah. I really, my, my eyes were opened in a big way along, along that pregnancy. So. Yeah. After doing the, you know, booking him at the Anglos and going for a couple of appointments there, realizing that there was no continuity of care whatsoever, that I was just seeing a different midwife every time. Some midwives I'd really get along with and then others. It was really standoffish a little bit quickly. And I was like, my goodness, this is sometimes I'm walking out feeling so excited and some I'm just incredibly, you know, down about because there is the realization that I, I have no idea who is even going to be there the day that I'm at birth, really started to hit home. Yeah. There was also a lot of questions raised in those appointments that I didn't, you know, about, you know, a lot of the testing, pain relief, like it was all centered on a lot of the things that I truly didn't feel that I wanted or needed. And started to realize I'm, I'm going to have to really push, you know, I'm going to have to give a bit of push back here to get what I want. And that was really scary. Yeah. From that point, I started diving into some research and that was the beginning of the deep, deep wormhole that set me on my journey from there onwards into birth. I was at the time working in Brunswick East and living out in Ellinda. So it was a good hour, 10 to hour and a half, hour 45, depending on the traffic, driving in and out every day. So. I had a lot of time to kill with some podcasts. Yeah. Very, the very first podcast I listened to was, I've written it down here because I knew it was going to fit the fear free childbirth podcast by Lexy Leachman. okay. One that I just searched in Spotify and it popped up and I was like, beautiful. Fear free childbirth. That's great. What a good start. I don't want to be scared of birth. Let's do it. Yeah. So true. I think she's based in the UK. Okay. But she started, you know, each podcast sort of did unravel different topics to do with natural, unnatural births and was all centered on how to, you know, achieve and avoid certain outcomes to get that natural birth outcome. And that really kicked off the journey. Cause all of a sudden I was like, yes, I agree with all of this. I'm feeling all of this. But at the same time I'm hearing, how difficult this is going to be within the hospital system. And it sort of all clicked, you know, all the feelings that I had already been feeling all of a sudden were being recognized. You know, I felt very heard, I guess, in my feelings about the hospital just by listening to this podcast, which was amazing. I was able to also, great thing about podcasts, just send them off to Lloyd. It's so true. I was like, you need to listen to this. You need to listen to this. Yeah. I'm not feeling good about this. Anyway, during that podcast, she often did say, you know, if you are going to birth in a hospital, a support person, private midwife, Dula, great place to start. So I was like, yeah, okay, I need one of these. Yeah. Being six months pregnant at the time and having this huge epiphany that. All of a sudden I was really scared to give birth in the hospital. So my fear, I wasn't scared about childbirth. I was now scared to walk into that hospital and potentially be pressured, coerced, pushed into things in the state of labor that I didn't really didn't want or believe in. So that was a huge motivator for me to research a private midwife. Yeah. And at that point it was, I literally, I think I was at work on my lunch break and I was like, now's the time. I jumped on and just Google private midwives in Melbourne. Yeah. And came across Mamatoto midwives. Yeah. I sent them off an email, just introducing myself, what was going on. I got a phone call back from the beautiful Juliana within, I think a couple of hours. And we just. I was able to sneak off into the back room and have a chat with her for about an hour. And just, you know, the rest is history. The relationship that I've had with her now through three children. Yeah. It started at that point. Yeah, that's incredible. I remember coming away from that phone call and thought, my God, the first time in six months of being pregnant after all the quick 15 minute appointments in the hospital. I finally feel held, supported, heard, and have someone that actually really trusts and believes in me just after an hour on the phone with them. And that was, that was the most incredible, incredible feeling and realization as to how integral she was going to be for me to get the birthday. really dreamed of, which was pretty special. Yeah. And so I guess like, so you're listening to this amazing podcast and you've connected with Juliana and knowing that your second and third births were, have been home births. Yeah. Obviously like six months is like quite a bit into pregnancy. Quite a bit, yeah. But. Had you had the thought crossed your mind? Like, should I be birthed in this baby at home or like, is this possible? Yeah, that was all coming up at the exact same time I was spiraling out about going into the hospital. Yeah. Well, and I had the conversation with Lloyd at the time. I said, I think, I think I need to have home birth. I don't think I, I don't want to do this hospital thing and bless him. He was just. You know, it was not there. He was, I hear you and I really agree with all the things I've been listening to and you've been showing me, but I just, I don't think, I don't think we can for the first. I don't think we should. Yeah. There was all of that still there. That initial, I think first time parent. Yeah. Didn't have, I guess, anyone around us at all that we knew that had had birth before. So it was a very much. You know, I think if we had have had a friend or one person that we knew and especially Lloyd that would have felt they could have talked to would have been a different story. But yeah, that's that was meant to happen. Yeah, but that's like, and that's a very common story and also a common misperception that like, you know, your first birth is a trial run. Like, like when you don't like fully understand physiology and in the context of birth, I think it's easy to think that like, we need to understand how you birth to figure out like how you're going to continue to birth. But I'm sure as you'll be able to, you know, reflect in this episode, each birth, like each birth is a bit different. Like it's not, it's not a copy paste scenario. So. yeah, I think like that's like, we're all victims of, the birth culture that basically says, you need help, you need medical help. You have to go to the hospital. I'll, as you'll die or somebody will die or right. So I think, so ingrained, I mean, that, that's just the whole bigger topic of, you know, I think especially as, as women. Yeah. There is this strong tendency to be raised to not trust. Yeah. Intuition, your instinct. Yeah. Be a good girl. Do as you're told. Yeah. And we know better. And you'll be fine. And we know better. Trust the doctors. So yeah, from a very, very young age, that is somewhat stripped of you. And totally. It's really hard if you're, if you're, if you don't have. you know, again, at a very... strong mum who very much believed in questioning everything. Yeah. Yeah. Was very natural minded, holistic minded. So I had that imprint in there to work with already. But if you don't have that, where do you even start from to find that inner trust and that intuition? Like, you just, you know, I see why majority of people just do as they're told, basically the whole time. Yeah. Yeah. So definitely, that was brewing in my head, the home birth thing. I mean, the other major factor, which, you know, was really important to us at the time was the cost. Totally. Yeah. The cost of the home birth versus just taking, having Giuliano as a support midwife was, you know, it was, it was a big difference. And six months into the pregnancy without much time to plan for that was a big deal. So. So true. Do you want to give a bit of an overview of the birth, your birth experience, especially with the support of Mama Toto with Marek in hospital? Yeah, definitely. So Marek, my waters broke as a first sign of labour with Marek. So it was about midnight. Yeah. In the bed, I'd been tossing and turning very uncomfortable for a few hours. No idea that it was actually labor starting, of course. And then all of a sudden, whoosh, at it all comes in a massive gush. So it was a big sort of initiation into labor starting. And contractions picked up pretty much within the first half an hour, 40 minutes. It was quick. In the sense that it was just on from the moment the waters broke off we went. Obviously having Juliana on board and I guess, you know, this is a reflective, I'm able to reflect on this in hindsight, but how special that was to have, you know, called the hospital to let them know, your waters are broken. You need to come in straight away. Yeah. We'll hang up the phone call Juliana. Don't worry about it. You don't just take a breath. I'll call the hospital. I'll liaise with them. just do what you're doing. Once things start to get a bit intense, let me know. She'd been at another birth or she was just finishing up at another birth. So, you know, this is one o 'clock in the morning or two o 'clock in the morning. Yeah. So I kept continuing, continue on laboring on my own for a good few hours with Lloyd. Of course, you know, the whirlwind of that first labor is like nothing else. You know, you're... it felt very much I was in a sense being taken along for the ride as opposed to being you know in control of the ride I guess you know in a sense but also feeling very determined and motivated for what was coming. So it was, I mean, it's like nothing else. You try and explain that first time having a baby. It's, it throws you up and down all over the place. But the most, you know, those first few hours when I was just at home, I was laboring a lot on the toilet. I decided that that was the most comfortable spot. I needed to go to the toilet. I was there. I needed to vomit. You know, I was there. Like, so I just, you know, I had my beautiful sacred little toilet bubble and I was happy to just stay in that. I think Juliana arrived at about five or five 30 in the morning, straight off the back of another birth. Well, and I remember just coming and holding me and, you know, just this beautiful presence of you are doing so well. I got this and I'm just here when you need me and everything was just, you know, I was just able to get so in the zone and it was about that time where I started to get those first urges to push for the first time. And you know, that's, that's a feeling like no other when they start to kick in. Yeah. And I remember Juliana looking at me, I'd say it was about 6am at this point and going, are you pushing? Does that, does that feel like you need to push there? And she's like, And I'm like, yes, yes, I think it is. She's like, I think it's time to go to hospital. Yeah. And all of a sudden I was like, no, what do you mean? I can't move. I am here and I am stuck to this toilet or I'm wherever I was leaning at the time. anyway, she offered at that point, she's like, would you like me to check to see how far along you are just so if we can buy ourselves a bit more time and at the time, absolutely fine. Yeah. to do that. So we did that. You know, again, in hindsight, that was the only time in any of my labors, all three that I'd ever lay down while in labor. Cause it's the only vaginal examination I've ever had. And it was horrendous. It was the worst. Like just, just being horizontal for me in that moment was awful. I remember being out on earth. to women, gift birth lying down. It's totally not for me whatsoever. But I was 10 cm at the time and there was that sense of, okay, well, we're on this journey to go to hospital. So now's the time, let's go. So I was bundled up into the car. I remember Lloyd, it was so beautiful. I remember Juliana, you know, leading up to that birth, you know. coaching him through ways he could help and say, you know, keeping the space as private and dark as possible. He wraps me in this blanket and he's like, passes me his sunglasses and he's like, put them on because the sun was just coming up in the morning and I'm sitting in the car like 10 centimeters dilated, uncomfortable as anything. Yeah. And I'm thinking, why? putting sunglasses on me. I'm just trying to keep it dark for you. Like I feel ridiculous. I just remember the 20 minute drive to the hospital. And it's so the funny, the funny little things you look back on. And the things you also have to think about as well, because like that truly can have an impact. it's not just the disruption, but the light. And, so yeah, a hundred percent. He was, he was onto it. So by the time we got to the hospital, it was about 7am. it did take a little while for things to build up again. So there was definitely, you know, again, in hindsight, that drive broke things up a little bit. Yeah. I was out of the zone, had to get in back in the zone again. It didn't take long though. By the time I was back in the, in the hospital, it was really, really beautiful. Walking into the room, dark, just a salt lamp on. Yeah. Quiet. I was asked for my birth plan. I also had Juliana there, which was fantastic because she just took over all the communication with, with the midwives, which is the part I didn't want to do. And we shouldn't be expected to do that either. And again, you know, all these things you, you, you look back on and think, my. goodness, I can't believe how much of an impact it made having her there to do all that so Lloyd and I could just get back in the zone together. Yeah. So yeah, so it was, Maric was born at 7.57 AM. So about an, just under an hour after getting to the hospital, which was great. In a sense, I didn't have to be there for. any length of time whatsoever. I literally just walked in and had the baby in a sense. The midwife on duty got on board really well. She knew Juliana already so that was great. They already had rapport and it was very much I would say a typical first birth in the sense of I remember that transition transition period thinking I Can't survive this I couldn't possibly survive what I'm feeling right now. This is so intense that enormous wave of fear of what was happening to my body feeling of You know for me it really Did feel like I could possibly die in that It was so intense. Which caught me really off guard as well from doing a lot of prep. You know through, I did a lot of calm births, you know things like that to really. I thought I would feel a lot more sort of centered and grounded and whatnot but that was out the window. But it also, all of that preparation led me to knowing that feeling. In a sense, like I recognized when I started spiraling out, I recognized that fear and I knew, okay, like feel that fear, but feel the tension that it's causing in your body as well. And it was literally that moment that I decided, okay, that's got to go. We're going to get this baby out. You know, have the birth we wanted and out it came. So, you know, I guess that that's a really. rushed version of it, but that is it in a nutshell. Yeah. But like it's so preparation comes down to that minute and that precise moment of being able to choose, having the knowledge to choose which path I was going to take. Yeah. Was what made all the difference in the world. Yeah. So, yeah. And I find it so curious, like I wish. And I mean, this is why there's not really any, Of the, you know, they say that the highest quality evidence is like randomized controlled trials because like about home birth that is. because like, imagine if you just had a stay at home. Like you were only in hospital, you were only in hospital for like one hour. And how long was the drive roughly? 20 minutes. Like 20 minutes. So like, imagine if. Yeah, like so crazy to think like how, how, yeah, it could have been quicker. It could have been sooner. absolutely. Just, yeah, I mean, I mean, that's just the what if, but also like acknowledging like this, the disruption of going into a hospital environment in. in such labor, you know, like, and imagine also if at, if you didn't have Juliana and at midnight when your waters are broken, the hospital's like, come on in. Yep. 100%. And imagine if you had of like how different that path could have looked, you know, like, I have nutted all this over in my head so many times and seen. All the possibilities that could have unfolded. And that is really interesting because at the end of the day, I got my completely natural physiological birth. Yeah. I felt I was on cloud nine. Yeah. It was so amazing. I did a natural birth, nothing at all. Yeah. extra on top. I got there. I came away with a second degree tear. But hey, that was part of the journey. Yeah. Look, I, you know, at the time I was like, incredible. So amazing. And it still is. But I guess it wasn't, you know, we'll get there fast forward until the second home birth that I started unpacking a lot of things that actually did bother me about that first birth still. Yeah. You know, the realization that the drive to the hospital was an intervention that slowed things up. that interfered with the birth. You know, the fact that I had, you know, I remember at one point I was sort of on hands and knees up on the, on the bed in the hospital and could, and just grasped a look at a numerous amount of people in the room. And obviously a group of, you know, student midwives or some, or trainee nurses or whoever, I don't even know who it was, had come in just, just very quietly to witness. And I remember that popping up in my head as a, you know, what's going, you know, what's going too deep in the throes of Labrador even. Yeah. I worry about it. I look back on that birth video as well. And remember I can hear the audio in your video and the midwife asked me a question. I couldn't, I can't hear what the question was, but I just say, Whatever you just do what you need to do. Like there was moments where, you know, interesting, there was things that just weren't, you know, that was still in my, in my opinion, you know, interferences that were easily points where I could have completely lost myself. Yeah. Well, you can, you can really see how, how there would be such high rates of birth trauma, but not even as extreme as birth trauma, but you know, negative experiences attached. Yeah. to birth, you can see how easy it happens. No matter how strong you are as a person, as an individual, as a woman, no matter like how assertive you are in like your work life or your personal life or how it going or how intelligent, once you're there, you are not in a space to hold those parts of your personality anymore. 100 % generally speaking, I'm sure, you know, some people like, nah, I'm like, it's my way or the highway. This is what I want. but you're in such a, a vulnerable, vulnerable state. Totally. You're literally on a different planet. Yeah. So when questions are being thrown at you or things raised at you, you know, that, that response of you just do what you need to do. Like just come out without even. Yep. Thought, you know, like, it's not even. Yeah. And I mean, you're still, you're still like, you know, those that like euphoria and like ecstatic, like happiness, like that can still be true. And you can still hold that feeling like, Hmm. It still would have been nice to be unobserved. It still would have been nice for this to happen. but how amazing then that. Then you chose to have a home birth with Roman. Just pausing here everyone to thank the June sponsor of the podcast, which is Earthy Birth. If there is one thing that has been missing from the home birth scene, it is aesthetically pleasing birth pools until now. Earthy Birth is a small family owned business and they're proud to offer professional quality off -white birth pools made from thick eco PVC and are designed for 40 plus uses. That's a lot of home births guys. They also offer stunning disposable floor length liners uniquely designed so that they protect the whole pool and that they don't slip off into the pool. Not only that, the liners come with optional artistic designs printed on the base to make your birth space even more beautiful. Earthy Birth also stocks plenty of other home birth suppliers such as hoses, tap adapters, pumps, robozos, birth combs, fairy lights, and much more, all in gorgeous earthy tones. They offer both purchase and hire with free shipping Australia wide for all orders over $50 visit earthybirth .com .au today. Thanks so much, earthy birth and enjoy the rest of this episode, everybody. Yes, definitely. And so you went with Mamatoto again. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So cool. Yep. So formed, you know, I think. It's impossible not to, if you, if you find someone that you connect with so deeply and that is there along for the journey with you of pregnancy and birth and postpartum. Yeah. It was just, you know, it's a relationship that, you know, I will hold dearly in my heart for the rest of my days. So it was a, it was a complete, yeah, just given, given that that was the first people that I would call when the next baby came along. And. immediately after Lloyd and I were both on page. Home birth next time. That's it. We're doing it. Yeah. Not a beer in the world. That's what we're going for. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, Yeah. Wrapping up on Marek's birth, the last thing I'll say that postpartum, I absolutely did no preparation for and that threw me completely. I did have a secondary tear, which I found incredibly hard to recover from. Especially I just had this mindset from, you know, I am definitely a get up and go person, but also society as a whole that You know, up you get, you've just given birth. Great. You know, like faster you get up and just get going. Like, yeah, good to you. Like, yeah, amazing. Yeah. So deeply ingrained in me that I really did struggle getting through a specialist for six weeks. Yeah. And, that was another thing that I put huge focus on in second pregnancy and birth. so leading up. into Roman's birth. So Roman is my beautiful fiery strong-willed second child as they so often are. Yeah. It took us nine months to conceive him which threw us a bit. It was, Merrick was just so quick. Yeah. But again beautiful hindsight. Roman does things on Roman's time clock and that's it. Nothing stopping him. So he was ready when he was ready. So with Roman's birth, I... planned for a home birth right from the get -go. I had read, important to say as well, in Marek's Pregnancy Iron and Maze Guide to Childbirth, Dr. Sarah Buckley's Birth, Gentle Mothering. I've read a few of these books already. I read 10 Moons by Jane Hardwick -Collings with Roman's birth. So I was sort of deeply getting into. how beautiful this birth was going to be, could be. I was just fully immersed into that. I had a lot of trust, obviously, that I could do it completely naturally and wouldn't need any help on the first birth, which was great. It helped a lot. One thing that did come up during Roman's pregnancy, which was really interesting, was... not fear around the birth, but there was this sense of, my gosh, is it, you know, what's it going to be like? Like, am I going to be able to have a natural, another natural birth? Like, could it be that good? So that was an interesting kind of, it wasn't scared of birth or the home birth. It was, the first one was so easy, really, eight hour labor, natural birth. Am I going to replicate that? So I had to work through that. Another thing that was really potent in that pregnancy was avoiding tearing. That was one thing that really. really rattled me with the first birth and postpartum. And I knew on reflection, because there's lots of reflection going on as it always does in pregnancy, that it was that sense, that fear and tension that I had in the lead up to the birth of Marek that I think produced that tear. So I knew that being at home and not having to go through that whole transition into hospital was probably going to be a really good start. I was adamant on a water birth. I'd read a lot of the research about water birth and that just felt really right for that, for this pregnancy and this birth. I did a lot of work with my midwives. So I had Juliana again and Danielle, who was with them at the time, support me in that pregnancy and that birth. And we did a lot of work on perineal massage and a few other things like that to prepare. Brought lots of breath work. I got to my due date, which was the 1st of May. And I was like, okay, well we've got to the due date. Merrick was born on his due date. So no pressure, but you know, usually come. Yeah. You've got this like already pre conceived idea that, you know, seconds. Yeah, that's what I was told to. That's what you were told to? Yeah. I hear a lot of people that were told this, which is just terrible. So yeah, three weeks later. my goodness. Three weeks later. So that, that you say you were like 43 weeks or in week. my gosh. 42 and six weeks. Wow. So that last three weeks was mentally so challenging. Yeah. However much I. truly believed that he was going to come when he was ready. Yeah. He was to decide and pick his birthday. Yeah. You know, it's his soul's journey just as much as, you know, this is mine. Yeah. And to just trust in the process. I found it so hard. Yeah. So hard. Yeah. Every week I'd go into meet with Juliana. I'd just be. in tears, you know, letting it out completely. I can't believe I'm still pregnant here. I am again at another checkup. Yeah. Anyway, it got to that 42 week mark. And she's, you know, Juliana suggested, why don't we just book in for a few days time, some extra monitoring so you can put yourself at ease that everything's good and we can just continue on. Yeah. I said, okay, all right, we'll do that. I also booked in. acupuncture session to see if things might be, you know, fostered along a little bit. Yeah. Again, you know, in hindsight, I view all these things now as an intervention, not as a, you know, natural induction method as I had thought of them at the time, which is, you know, interesting how your mind changes with this. So EA got to that right at the end point. I went and had an acupuncture session on them. I think it was the Monday night. And I had a scan booked in for the Wednesday. So two days later. So, yeah, kind of got to that point. I was also teetering on the edge of, of talking to Juliana about a stretch and sweep, which never went ahead. Thank goodness. Cause I know that would have been a big, for me to even be considering these things at this point, I was absolutely head was all over the place. Fundamentally, I don't, I would in a normal state. Yeah. I just don't, I don't think they're necessary. Yeah. Unless you're trying to push. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Anyway, I had the acupuncture session. Didn't go into labor that night, which also made me cry because I thought it'll just happen now straight away. Yeah. But it was the next, the following night that I did. I did go into labor, which is lovely. So again, this labor started with my waters breaking as the first sign again. Again. Wow. Great. Yeah. This is my thing. This is what I do. Yeah. When the waters break and I know it's on. Yeah. There's no this sort of gray area thing going on. So that was at about 5 p Lloyd had just walked in the door from work and I cried that happiest tears of my life. I think I danced around the house. I was like, thank God. Thank God we're at the 18th of May now. So 18 days past due date. Whether that was accurate or not. Let's not worry about that. Yeah. You know, whatever. But I was so, so happy. Yeah. So happy. I called, I called Juliana and she didn't answer. So I called my secondary midwife Danielle. Yeah. And she was just having, you know, we're all, we're all in stitches laughing because I was just absolutely ecstatic. I was standing in the bathtub. I was like checking the color of my waters. I was like, yes, it's definitely water. I'm definitely not just weighing myself. Yeah. You know, these crazy thoughts go through your head. Yeah. And she says, okay, fantastic. Well, just, you know, try and get some rest. You know, we might see you tonight or we might see tomorrow. And I was like, nah, this is happening now. What are you talking about? I'm not waiting till tomorrow. No, not happening. And she's like, also, I know you spoke to Juliana earlier today and she was heading to see another mum, but she used it another birth. we'll just see, see how things pan out timing wise. Yeah. Anyway, three hours later, Roman's born. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Juliana didn't make it. So, Danielle, my secondary midwife stepped in as main midwife and Shelly jumped on board as well to help out. And you know, at the time I was just, this is, this is the way it's meant to be. I don't have Juliana with me, but that's okay. I've met all the other midwives. Yeah, cool. So you'd met Shelly before as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Just briefly in passing. Yeah. But obviously I had enough of the, you know, I'd had. beautiful rapport building with Danielle throughout the pregnancy. So yeah, I was like, nothing I can do about it. So let's just, yeah, maybe she'll come, you know, just in time. Anyway, laboring again was, it was a really beautiful labor Romans. It was a lot faster in a sense than Marix. but it was consistent. It built, you know, strongly, but, with time to sort of process it. You know, fast, but not, not too intense in a sense. So yeah, three hours from water, water's breaking. Wow. He was born. I got in the pool 12 minutes before he was born. So I got my water birth, but just, it was down to the wire. you know, that was, his birth was life changing. completely life changing. I remember, you know, I put my hand down on his head as he was crowning and he was being born and had this insanely beautiful sense of connection from him to me to wherever we were in the stars. And, you know, guided him out slowly. You know, I had it in my head that I was not tearing this time, that it was, you know, I was in the moment. And, yeah he was born beautifully no tearing wow you know i remember lifting him up and thinking instantly i want to do that again yeah like it wasn't it wasn't the shock to the system that marik's birth was all right you know a big difference to marik's birth was too i was i remember so of the midwives saying you know if you want to reach down and touch your baby's head and I just couldn't you know I couldn't even go there so it was a beautiful sort of moment to actually allow myself to experience yeah feel really ready for that connection yeah so as you know it's just it was just so easy there was no going anywhere packing bags racing to cars walking yeah to a hospital trying to get up a flight of stairs, you know, as a baby's coming out of you, like it was just calm, beautiful. I had my space set up exactly as I wanted it to. Everyone just left me be. You know, it was, it was, it was utter bliss. It was utter bliss. And I was on such, such a high after that birth that, yeah. Yeah, so beautiful. The only way to describe it. Yeah. Just everything, everything that I had imagined, everything that I not even imagined had an inner knowing about that birth could be like was absolutely confirmed to me. Yeah. Birth, which not only fueled me with this deep love of birth. Yeah. But made me so angry. at the same time to what was going on around me. That I was witnessing friends go through. That I was just observing everywhere and all of a sudden... I was in the throes of this deep love and deep passion for what I had experienced, but so deeply hurt by what was happening around me. And all of a sudden it all made sense. That deeper, from, this is the way everything, everything has shaped history to this point. Yeah. Women were experiencing in the system. Yeah. Broke me to absolute tears. Yeah. I think when you think about, so like, I'm pretty, pretty sure I saw the other day that the most, well, I mean, it makes sense, right? The most common presentation to a hospital is for childbirth. And so you're thinking about all of these. women that are going to hospitals around Australia, around the world to have a baby. And just like you had a natural vaginal birth in hospital. But the stuff that was also attached to that, I mean, for many women, I mean, even, even yourself, like, initially, I guess, You've got a healthy baby and you got a healthy mom. You're both alive. Good birth. Tick the box. Right. Like that's what we're here for. And it's just, it's just wild that. An experience like you've had with Roman. It's kind of dismissed. Yeah. Yeah. But it's like. Yes. Yes. Complete dismissed because it's like, that's your own. Yeah. And you're overachieving and like, you know, why would we put so much effort into, you know, trying to allow women to have or enable women to have this experience when like. I mean, she had a natural vaginal birth and has a healthy baby in the first experience too. So like, why do you need all this fluff about it? You know? But as you said, Roman's birth was life changing for a, in a positive way, you know, not life changing as it is for many women. In the sense that it's deeply traumatic. Three women are walking away from their birth traumatized. Right? There's something not right. Yeah. You hear those statistics, but you've had, I mean, not only a first birth that was, you know, so satisfying and achieved so many of my dreams on one level, but then upped that to the level of elation that Roman's birth gave me at home. You start to really question what is going on. This is not fair. Yeah. Who's robbing who of this experience? Cause that makes me want to cry. Yeah. To think that women are walking in, not asking questions. First of all, you've got to take responsibility for yourself. Yeah. But also being absolutely pushed and coerced. Maybe not even coerced. Coerced is a very strong word. Lots of women are coerced, but it's just the way society has decided that it's the safest, easiest way to give birth and this is just what you do. Yeah. Because it's not. And I mean, there is like conversation that I've heard recently about, you know, health professionals in the medical maternity system aren't intentionally out like, to create, like to cause malice. Yeah. Like they're, they're there, to, you know, hold, hold the space, hold the women, you know, do their job, whatever. To make sure no one dies. To make sure it didn't very basic sense to make sure no one dies. Literally. And whatever is required to get to that outcome. Well, that's what's going to happen. Yeah. Yeah. I truly believe that. All the stuff in between has been missed in a big way. Yeah. Or she wants that to be the outcome. Yeah. Yeah. But there needs to be a whole hearted, whole minded physical mother at the end that's ready to go into motherhood. Yeah. Because it's generational. I think we're just, we live in such a society where we're like instant right now. Yeah. Okay. Let's go. Can't wait any longer. And I mean, what I wanted to ask as well is, you know, going past 42 weeks, did you experience any like, external pressure like placed upon you from friends, family, other health professional people? Yep. I mean, brilliant part about not being in the system as such. Yeah. No pressure. Yeah. In that sense for an induction. Great, avoided that. But everyone around me or a lot of people around me, you know, very well -minded, but what are you going to do if the baby doesn't come? You know, what's your plan? You know, do you think you should get some extra testing done or scans? Like, do you feel there's anything wrong? All those little comments. Yeah. I think absolutely added to me spiraling out. mentally and not being able to, you know, hold strong. I mean, I felt like I did hold strong pretty good to like, yeah, I'm pretty, it was pretty impressive. It's not going to happen. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, by any means, but absolutely. Yeah. I could, I could sense more on an energetic level to the fear that, you know, a number of people within the family and friends circle. was starting to have, I could feel their anxiety over the fact that I was so far past my due date and that couldn't be normal. And that there wasn't that trust that everything was okay. And I felt totally fine. Baby was, I knew the baby, you know, Roman was totally fine. So yes, definitely. Definitely. Definitely. Yeah. Like I see, huge cult. On social media, like everywhere, like people saying, you know, I saw a TikTok yesterday and it was a woman that was 39 plus something and she'd posted on TikTok that she was too afraid to say no. So she just said yes to the booking and induction, but she was on TikTok to say that she actually wasn't just, she was just not going to turn up. and there was people in the comments being like, your placenta is dying and like, you're going to die and like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And just, it was just so, so, like, it's so unnecessary, but it's so deeply embedded in our, culture that it's amazing to hear stories like yours that really present it so differently, you know? I mean, yeah, if I was booked in at the Angles again, I can't even begin to imagine the fight I would have had to put up. Yeah. To have gotten to where I had to get with Roman. Yeah. It would have been a monumental task. Yeah. And they would not have been. So, you know, there's a reason for these things. Yeah. What was your postpartum like, you know, with Roman, but also having Marik as well, running around. Yeah. Well, chalk and cheese. Yeah. You know, knowing, you know, the jump from having one to two was. so much easier than just having the one. In a sense, I had done a huge amount of research during Roman's pregnancy into postpartum nutrition, healing, you know, all that sort of beautiful stuff. You know, I was onto meal prep in the lead up to his birth. I'd stop the freezer up. I'd gotten all my friends and family on board with food. Yeah. My. mom came over and did the washing and cooked soups and yeah, you know, everyone was prepped. I don't want gifts. I don't want anything. You either cook or clean for me. That's it. And yeah, it was a lot more assertiveness from me as to the help I needed. I knew what help I needed this time. Yeah. Again, as a first time mom, sometimes you, you don't realize you don't realize what you need until you. Yeah. Yeah. So I had all that covered. I had a beautiful recovery. Not having a tear that this time made such a big difference. Such a big difference. Yeah. And I co -slept right from the beginning this time. Didn't follow any of their ridiculous, how you need to sleep with your baby rules through the end of the bin. And, off we went and I never had a night that I, you know, woke up from or didn't wake up from the next morning going, my God, that was horrendous. It was just, I had enough sleep. I had enough energy, you know, all my, I was eating good food. So it was, it was beautiful. It was just followed on from the birth and really set the tone from then on out. As to how I thought birth should be. I also saw, you know, experienced what I could give to my friends, you know, as well as having babies, you know, and making meals for them and supporting them emotionally. You know, they didn't need a cute little bunny or, you know, some more clothes. Whenever I was, you know, I realized what the, where the true sense of, you know, women supporting women through birth and pregnancy was. So that was really special to take that on for the rest of my life now. Yeah, absolutely. And so what's the age gap between Roman and what's the girl's name? Ivana. Ivana. What's the gap? Three years. Three years. I think that's just like the best. I mean, personally, I think that's the best gap. It is. I agree. It's worked out absolutely beautifully for bringing in a third child, especially having Roman, you know, communicating beautifully, toilet trained, all that sort of stuff. Very capable to get himself a snack out of the fridge, whatever needs to happen, helped immensely. Roman. was a determined breastfeeder. He was not giving up breastfeeding for anything. And I mean, until, you know, well and truly in the lead up to two. All night, all day. So it really did in the six months into me, when he was about one and a half was when I was really starting to feel that desire, you know, that calling to have another baby. I still hadn't. My cycle hadn't returned. Yeah. Again, in hindsight, the copious amounts of breastfeeding really helped with that. Yeah. And I was really starting to feel truly like I was ready to finish up the breastfeeding journey. So, yeah, I mean, that's another, another whole, you know, breastfeeding is a whole nother world. My first son, Marek, just completely was done at 15 months. Yeah. I couldn't believe it. I was like self weaning rubbish. What baby would want to give up their precious boob, you know? Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He was truly like fussing, refusing. And I was like, okay, all right. I guess it's done. my God. 15 months. Yeah. What the hell. You're a baby. Like, anyway, I'm glad I got to that point with him anyway, but yeah, once I'd stopped, he was so ready to go. Ready? Yeah. He was done. He was, it was truly the end for him. Roman, total opposite. I absolutely had to help him along with that journey, cut back during the day. And then it really did get to that two year mark where I was absolutely done. I wanted my cycle to return. I wanted another baby. I could feel it all like brewing. So we ended up night weaning Roman as well. And that very first cycle back, I conceived Ivana. So she was there ready. that's brilliant. Yeah. You know, that's a whole interesting conversation too. You know, that was, it was a really hard journey, like feeling like you as the mother were actually done before your child and working out how to hold each other's needs and guide each other through that. That was, that was challenging. That was really challenging with him. But anyway, on we go. Yep, Ivana was conceived and her pregnancies, you know, whether they say boys and girls are different, it was different. Yeah. Okay. I mentally, that first 12 weeks mentally and emotionally was really hard, like very emotional. I was battling with a lot of thoughts of why have I fallen pregnant? Did I even want this? Which was really hard to process because I absolutely knew I wanted a third baby and I wanted this baby. But mentally for some reason, I was just all over the shot. Yeah. Very emotional. Trying to, trying to just pull it all together. Felt utterly exhausted the whole time. Yeah. both Merrick and Roman, I seem to get through a little bit more energy, not so much nausea, very easy pregnancies. So yeah, that first 12 weeks of pregnancy on this third one was really challenging, really, really challenging. But again, you get through that first trimester and it was very smooth sailing from then on. I did, there was... component where I had listened, it was actually funny, I started listening to about when Roman, Roman would have been about one at the time so it was well before third baby came on but I started listening to the free birth society podcast at that point. I'd heard this term floating around free birth again never heard of it so again being a bit of a birth research nut yeah I thought I better go find out what this is all about so there was a part of me that thought If there was ever a candidate, I'd probably be a pretty good candidate to give this a go. And I really had to like not out where my beliefs were, where I stood, where my trust was, you know, you know, it raised a lot of questions with, you know, do I, am I, do I, do you have these midwives on board because you don't truly trust yourself or what, you know, what's the reasoning behind it all? Could I just do it on my own? What would that bring up for me? So I did actually go through quite a lot of, you know, sort of figuring out where my head was to in terms of looking at birth in a whole new light after Romans as well. And how easily I felt that could have happened with just me in a room on my own. And I guess also important to think, like I've had... lots of those thoughts myself, I guess the difference between my experiences and at least your experience with Roman is that your birth with Roman was pretty quick. And so when you're spending thousands and thousands of dollars on midwives who deserve to be paid, you know, for their skillset and for their time and what they give, But then when you do it so seamlessly, it's kind of like, what's going on here? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What do I, what do I truly need and want? Yeah. So yeah, I did unpack that for quite a bit in the lead up. It was really in the lead up to falling pregnant. once I did fall pregnant, it was very much, it was very clear to me that it wasn't about having. I mean, there was an element, a small element of having the midwives there to help and assist if things didn't quite go to plan. That was such a tiny, tiny element. It was so much more these women that had carried me and supported me throughout previous births that I truly wanted them in my space again. And to have these, you know, these women. who I could talk to throughout the pregnancy, more so than the birth. Like those appointments, you know, check your blood pressure, you know, do maybe do a blood test here on that. Very basic. I don't do it. I'm not, not, you know, many of many testing whatsoever from very basic bits and pieces here and there. But to have them to talk to for more the emotional support was the biggest factor for me. It just felt like an absolute yes. I want, want my midwives there for more reasons than, you know, if something goes wrong. Yeah. And I guess I, just like quickly to mention is that that's kind of the conclusion. I don't know if it's a conclusion, but the thought process that I've had, I feel like historically women were, you know, Women would have been in attendance of the labor and birth that you know that you were familiar with that loved you, supported you and to hold that emotional aspect. And I feel like that's my right to have that. And it sucks that, you know, it's super regulated and technically midwives are under, you know, a lot of rules and you do have to pay thousands of dollars. But. that holding throughout the continuum of pregnancy and postpartum and like, it's just, what price can you put to that? Yep. And, and that's right. And I really, you know, I thought, yeah, the way my last two births have gone, I fully trust that I could do this on my own, but do I want to be alone? Yeah, right. Yeah. No, I really did not want to be alone. Yeah. I thought of that. That's not for me. So yeah, yeah. Off we go on that journey again. So, you know, have a, you know, Juliana on board again for a third birth, pregnancy, which was just absolutely beautiful. Yeah. And by this time, Danielle had moved into state. So Shelly came on board for my secondary midwife. Yeah. And again, great. I. You know, she was there for Roman's birth as well. Yeah. this, yeah, once I sort of got through that first 12 weeks, everything really settled down. and had a really beautiful, very easy going pregnancy from then onwards. You did move though, right? Yes. I mean, when I say easy, pregnancy was straightforward and very easy. I've been very blessed in having zero. complications or anything during pregnancy. Life though was incredibly turbulent. We were at this point living in rural New South Wales on the coast. Beautiful, beautiful place. We moved up there when Roman was about one just after he turned one for a big sea change. Lloyd had been itching to live by the coast and to experience that. So we decided off the back of COVID that that was the time to do it. Yep. Yep. Long story short, we got there, jumped into a new business venture, which we just turned out not on path at all. It was, you know, it was. the universe's way of placing is exactly where we needed to for growth and learning. Right. Yeah. It was not pleasant. Yeah. Had to go through it. And we are so grateful for that experience now and learned so much and are now so sure of where we want to be in life. Yeah. So grateful, but it was really, really hard to sit in that for a long time. So yeah, it was really, you know, as pregnancies and new souls coming into your life often do. Ivana was very much the catalyst for, yeah, we're, this is it. We've had enough. We're moving back. Yeah. Lick your wounds. Take the lessons and learnings and let's move on. Let's go. Yeah. So it was very, there was a lot of stress, a lot of stress and emotional turmoil throughout her pregnancy. So it doesn't surprise me that in the intensity of that first trimester, it was so, so full on. And that probably played a huge, a huge, you know, huge part of it. Not just the fact that she was a girl. Yeah. Not that I knew at the time. Yeah. You know, it was probably more to do with the external factors leading into it. So I traveled back and forth from, we were in Eden to Melbourne. So six hour drive for my appointments. And that was just what was going to be done. That was a commitment that was so okay to fulfill. I mean, we've got all our family and friends in Melbourne anyway, so just doubled it into a beautiful package of catching up with everyone and having a checkup. And, you know, again, they knew me, they knew my history. There was no worries from there. And, you know, they also said, baby, if I didn't feel something was right. I knew where I needed to go. Yeah. Talk to you. Yeah. Yeah. Talk through it. So we're all very comfortable with that arrangement. it really was just pinpointing at what stage I was going to be happy with to stay in Eden. And when we needed to move back to Melbourne and where I was going to birth in Melbourne, we didn't have a house in Melbourne obviously anymore. So that, you know, we, for a while we thought, all right, an Airbnb but then you know throw the cost of you know eight week Airbnb stay on top of a home birth the fee it was just yeah it was just not gonna happen so yeah it we decided that I was going to have this baby at my family home where my parents still live yeah house that I grew up in and You know, there was lots of working throughs, lots of thoughts on how I was going to feel about that, you know, being in, although my parents, other people's space, other people's energy, their thoughts and feelings on it all. So once I sort of was able to decipher for myself whether I was going to be comfortable or not with that, we were able to then, you know, have the conversation with my parents about. whether it was okay for them, you know, their thoughts on how did they feel about it? Again, my mom and dad have been incredibly supportive throughout my whole life. So it was, I think there was a lot more excitement from their end of the thought of a grandchild being born in their house and any worries whatsoever. It was, you know, and I sort of started. Instead of sort of worrying about that, you know, how that was all going to work with so many people in the space, you know, how it was going to look and how beautiful it was going to be to actually bring this baby into the house that I grew up in. You know, it was ended up the room was part of my old bedroom. my gosh. I opened up and extended. It was pretty, you know, I sort of started to really fall in love with the notion that this was this was it. This was the place she was being called to for whatever reason. And it was going to work out just, just beautifully. So we ended up moving back from Eden when I was 36 weeks pregnant. And that was it. I was like, this is my limit. I am, I need to, I need to get out of here. Otherwise I'm going to start feeling really antsy. Although I was mentally prepared this time for a 43 week labor. Even though I was hoping it wasn't going to eventuate. I was like, I have full trust that you can go to 43 weeks. No dramas. Yeah, that's normal. So again perceptions have changed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah So we've moved Yeah, we we did the big move back And I mean it was it was just full -on. I think the biggest thing from that pregnancy that I felt in the time that I was really grieving was, you know, I had this sense that this very much could possibly be my last time pregnant. And after Roman's pregnancy, I had this, you know, again, this desire to just, embrace it even more. Like when I'm pregnant next and I get that ability to be pregnant again and go through it, just sink into it and embrace every minute. But I just couldn't. Yeah. So that was that was challenging as well. You know there was no there was no time. I had two kids. Yeah. I had no support crew up there. I was on my own. We were deep in the thick of sorting out business related dramas and yeah there was no time. There was no time for any you know, beautiful pregnancy yoga classes, occasional massage. It was just, it was hard work the whole time. Packing up a house entirely on my own pretty much. Had some help from my beautiful mom and dad who came up and did dig deep with me for a bit there. But it was, it was full on. So the desire to get back to Melbourne was strong. I had not been able to nest. like I did with the other two, which I was craving. I just wanted to set up my birth space and walk in and out of the room and like, you know, get to know it and it seems really odd, but I'm no, it's not odd. I'll take that back. It doesn't seem odd. It's totally normal to want to nest. Yeah. But with Roman, you know, I had the birth space set up, you know, from 37, 38. Yeah, just wandering and out and like, you know, soak it in and yeah. thing here and add something there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Take away that over time, whereas I just couldn't do that. So I was craving, craving to get back. Yeah. And get to get to work basically on that space. So, once we were back it was it was the craziness changed but it didn't stop. Yep. My eldest just turned five at the start of February he started kinder this year. wow. Wild. My beautiful sister has had had been and was in the thick of a very very stressful twin pregnancy. Whoa. so there was a lot going on still in the background. but we'd gotten there. I'd set up my birth space. I was sinking in to it all happening. and it was, so she was Jew. I didn't know she was a girl. I think I've said that already. had a strong desire not to know, not to know what she was. she was due on the 20th of February. My eldest was born on the 11th of Feb so I was like, let's just get past his birthday. She was due on the 20th and she arrived on the 27th of Feb so she was 41 weeks. Wow, so interesting. Yeah. So yeah, good mix. Due date baby, one week over and a three week over. Yeah. And yeah, so the day... I went into labor with her. I had an appointment with Shelly. I think it's important to mention too that Juliana, who obviously I had for Marek's birth, was meant to be at Roman's birth, but couldn't make it because she was at another birth. Yeah. Was now 24 hours away from heading off to Ethiopia. whoa. In the lead up to this date, I was like, I know I've got to the 26th. I've got to the 26th. You know, if I don't go into labor before the 26th, I don't have Juliana. I just have to prepare myself for that. Yeah. Surely a week. It'll be fine. Yeah, it'll be fine. But it got to the 26th, of course. Still no baby. I had a brief grieve over knowing that she wasn't going to be there. But also I was like, okay, we're past this period of not knowing. So I can just focus in now. Yeah. She's not going to be here. It is what it is. I've got Shelly and Kirsteen was going to be the second midwife that was going to step in. So, you know, all this planning was in process already. But once the uncertainty of what was going to happen was kind of gone, you know. I went into labor within 24 hours, which is funny. Yeah. And did your waters break again? No, they did not break. So the air breath was totally different. Wow. I had just a regular checkup, the 41 week checkup with Shelly at 11 a that day. So I went to that. Marek and Roman had kinder and playgroup. So Lloyd took them for the day. So it meant before my appointment, I floated up to Olindo and went for a walk around the forest and it was, you know, just one of those beautiful, beautiful days. A little bit cooler in the morning, but you know, it's warming up to be for warm balmy day. So I had a beautiful walk, went to my appointment. It was, it was funny, but it was the first appointment where I was like, Shelly, I know why you're my midwife. Like I know why you were meant to be. primary midwife, like they're just, you know, there's this beautiful, I felt really connected with her on a level we hadn't got to before. And I thought, this is perfect. What a beautiful timing, you know? I'll have a baby at some point soon. Like I feel really settled with her. She was just, she was just gorgeous, just gorgeous. So I was feeling great after that appointment. I came out and when I had lunch at a cafe on my own, which you know, is a mom of two. That was just... Divine. Absolutely. Didn't have to talk to anyone. Yep. Just had a meal in peace. Yep. And then headed on home at about midday about 12, 1230. I think got home at about one, one ish in the afternoon and pretty much the moment I stepped out of the car, I was like, there's a, you know, little tight going on there. That's nice. And then. I just noticed they were regularly sort of rolling in very gently every 10, 15, sometimes half an hour, but they were just kind of there like I had had this happen a week ago on my due date, 20th. So I was like, I'm not believing this. Yeah. Once I am like clinging onto the wall, then I will believe I'm in life. Yeah. Yeah. This will probably get to nighttime and it'll stop. This is just nothing. Anyway, Lloyd gets home, I don't know, 2.30 ish and they're still just rolling in. I'm like, maybe, you know, wouldn't this be nice? But you know, let's not worry about it. I was like, until my waters break or, you know, they're intense enough. I don't believe anything. Yeah. So just, it was just one of those from, from that sort of. early afternoon period onwards they're just really slow really gentle really light but they were there you know three hours in i was like okay i'll message shelen i'll just say hey this is very very mild very gentle but it's happening just letting you know in case yeah yeah it's more intense she's like cool no worries you know just let me know how it's going at about five o 'clock we take the kids out for a little bike ride before dinner and I just had this desire to just walk barefoot. I was like, shoes. Like walk bare feet, you know, weird thing. So I'm walking around and they were starting to get a little stronger. Still did not believe it for a second that this was going to be like that. I don't know. Who knows? Who knows what was going on? Well, especially because you've been, you've been like so much further before. So I guess in your mind you're like, well, this. This could just be, yeah, fizzle out. Yep. So keeps just going on like this. You know, I've sort of got everyone in my circle. I had a beautiful friend, Carly, he was ready to come and photograph and video the best on board too. So I just sort of let everyone know that things were kind of moving, but you know, don't hold your breath. 7pm when we were trying to put the kids to bed, I was like, okay, this has got to be. This has got to be something. So, you know, they're getting a little bit more intense now. Still really irregular. Some five minutes apart, some half an hour apart, you know, all over the shop. But the intensity had just picked up a bit. So I was like, OK, I'll message everyone and say, I think this is this is it. Yeah, yeah. It wasn't until so it was a whole nother hour. Now, in this time. My eldest had just fallen asleep. He was exhausted, but Roman was refusing flat out to go to sleep. Refusing absolutely beside himself. Now he had co -slept with me since the day he was born and it was almost impossible. We had tried for months leading up to this birth to getting used to sleeping with Lloyd, but that was... By no means happening on his terms. He was every night ended up back in bed with me. So when Lloyd was trying to put him to bed while I was, you know, just trying to keep in the zone and hope, you know, I was hoping that I could just keep things building. He was absolutely losing it. I could hear him crying out from the other room. Anyway, by eight o 'clock when I was like, okay, I'd gone for a little walk in the garden and I had really sort of. welcomed the fact that I was in labor. I was like, yep, this is happening. I want it to happen, you know, come on baby, let's do this kind of thing. And I felt the urge to go into my birth space at about eight. And I could hear Roman from the other room just crying, crying, crying. And I was like, this is going to be really, what have we got in store? Like this is going to be a big thing anyway. At that point, moment, Lloyd walked in with him. And I just had this big sense of relief from feeling like. you know how is this going to you know is this going to disrupt my labor you know hearing him so upset in the background to him just coming in i was like great this is it this is perfect loyd put him on the bed next to me and he just chilled he was just happy yeah it was an well an hour passed when he usually goes to sleep but his whole demeanor just shifted yeah he just went quiet peaceful he was just watching me you're going mommy you know are you roaring like a lion yet why are you breathing like that like you know it was so just you know i think being so beautifully bonded and attached to me for such a long time you know I think looking back, he truly needed to experience. He was pretty much putting up a fight saying, I need to be here. I want to see what's going on here. So I could make sense of all this. You know, moving on. I think, I think he truly wanted, he wanted to be there. He was like, I'm not sleeping tonight. I am here with you and I'm watching what's going on. So that was great. That shifted everything. I relaxed. He was at peace. I was at ease. everything was going well. Yeah. So at 8pm I had the first like what I would call doozy contraction. You know, it was, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Here it is. This is it. Yeah. It's coming now. This is, this is what I remember. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Why am I here again? Yeah. So that was at eight at eight, just before eight 30, I called Shelly and was like, okay, it's time to come. Yep. No rush. No rush, but head round, you know, when you're ready. Like, it's all good. Everything's kind of under control, but the intensity is there. Yeah. So she walks in to the room at, I think it was like 8 .56. All of a sudden my waters broke everywhere. I had the most intense contraction that I have ever experienced, all births combined. Yeah. It felt like I'd literally dilated from zero to 10 in like a single construction. It was just monumental. And I felt Ivana just drop. Like she was just coming down so fast. And in that contraction, I completely lost my head and completely had to gather it again in the space of it felt like. seconds but it was probably a couple of minutes of this is too fast this is too fast yeah yeah to slow this down i can't i can't even stay sane right now it's everything's just hit all at once to you know again that thought of are you going to fight this or are you going to go with it because yeah it is intense but you you want to go with it we don't want to fight this yeah And then to the, to that's the next contraction hitting after that at about nine o 'clock head born. Whoa. my gosh. So efficient. Holy moly. At the time I was like, it was the, it was so intense and so fast that I was genuinely in shock. Yeah. Yeah. it gone on and what was happening and I really had to kind of get my head in the game. Yeah. Again. You know? Yeah. I really felt like I spiralled out for a little bit. I didn't get in the pool. I didn't make it in at all. I the moment sort of Shelley walked in the door just before she was born essentially, you know, she said, now's the time if you want to jump in the pool. And I was like, hell no, I can't get in the pool. Yeah. Still had all I still have like my underwear on my bra on. Wow. I get everything off. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Person. So I literally was. Hang on to the pool with one hand, hang on to the bed. I had Shelly trying to take my undies off at the same time. It was all fucking their head coming out. Lloyd was behind me and I remember saying to him or just, you know, in general, like someone get ready to catch this baby because there is no way I can let myself, like I can't let go. Yeah. One hand on her to slow her down. Yep. Because again, I knew from Roman's birth, I was like, that was just the best thing in the world to. feel that connection. Yeah. Yeah. She's coming out and I knew if I didn't add a little counter pressure. Yep. That, you know, again, she was flying on out. Yeah. She was flying on out. Yeah. I really had to, use my breath in a big way. Yeah. Use that kind of pressure from my hand to, to slow her emergence. Yeah. Yeah. Because it was, it was just so fast. Yeah. So fast. And, And Lloyd, yeah, Lloyd was right there behind me, ready to catch her. Yeah. Roman was standing behind sort of cuddling over his back with his head on his shoulder. Wow. Just in awe watching like, and in the birth video you can hear Roman being like, my goodness, can I touch her head? Like can I touch the head? Not her, cause no one knew what she was doing. Can I touch her? Can I touch its head? And Lloyd's just like, my God, what is going on? He's just like, I've got one job. I'm just going to catch this baby. And, and out she came. Wow. Saw her gender. Yeah. Cause her legs were just flying up in the air. Yeah. But kept it very quiet until, you know, I said, it was very immediate. You know, pass me my baby, pass her a baby. I want to hold her. Yeah. That was one of the things from Romans that I loved so much was catching my own baby. That was just the best feeling in the world. And I said to Lloyd in the lead up to my mother's birth, don't you catch a baby? Like that's my darling baby. But obviously I was very, I needed someone to help because I was in such an early stage. I just couldn't not brace myself. I was holding on so tight to the side of the pool. Yeah. And anyway, it was. Again, a beautiful but intense, intense birth. Yeah. Picked her up and just held her for a good couple of minutes. I was like, I really just want to absorb and hold you. Yeah. Or I find out whether you're a boy or a girl. I had had some feelings that she was a girl, but I just sat with it for a minute and then yeah, burst into tears. And. I doubt I've had a daughter. And... Whoa. And so... That was it. So with Marek, it was about eight -ish hours. Eight hours. Yeah. Roman three. And, you know, I don't even know when to class Ivana's... Yeah. You know, I've sort of thought, you know, well, I guess from the first sort of intense -ish contraction when I was, you know... This is happening. Yeah. Definitely was the hour before she was born. Yeah. You know, two hours before I was convinced I was in labor, but thought I had plenty of time to go. Was it two hours? Was it 10 minutes? Yeah. Yeah. Holy moly. Yeah. my goodness. And I guess the question, especially with quick birds, like, did you tear with her? No. No. Wow. The body is incredible. Body's incredible. And again, knowing, you know, having that knowledge of using my breath to my advantage, you know, like, yeah, it's hard to even explain how that can slow, you know, slow things up in a sense. Yeah. Just breathing in the right way and that counter pressure. I really did put a lot of counter pressure on her head so that she eased out. Yeah. eased out rather than flew out. Flew out, yeah. Really helped. Yeah. Immensely. Yeah. And how long did it take for the placenta to be born? It was an hour with her. Yeah. A little bit longer. Yeah. And with the boys, the boys were about the 30 or 40, 45 minima. Yeah. It was a good hour. Yeah. A little bit longer. So immediately after she was born, Shelly was like, Hey, why don't you hop in the pool? Like you haven't used it. It's sitting there full. Like, do you want to just hang out in there for a bit? I was like, okay. Yeah. That was the best. They're popping into that warm, beautiful pool. That was my favorite space. It was fantastic. Cause I was like, okay, I didn't get a water birth, but she obviously didn't want to be born in water. That was not meant to be. So now we get to just. chill out in here and wait for the placenta to come. Yeah, so beautiful. And that was divine. Yeah. So good. Yeah. So good. And yeah, beautiful. Had my eldest son had just been brought in just as she came out. He was fast asleep, but he was adamant he wanted to be there for the birth. So it was a race. I think my mom raced to the room. to grab Marek and prank him in. Cause I thought, I, I know he's asleep, but if he misses out on this, he's not going to be happy. So both my boys were there, both witnessed it. We were all just, they were all just lying on the bed. I had sort of the bed in the pool right next to each other. They were all just lying on the bed, like chatting to me, talking to me, watching it all afterwards. It was just so beautiful. And I think. What an amazing experience for two sons to witness. Yeah. Birth like this. Yeah. And to imprint that on them that this is birth and this is how your sister was born and just, yeah. Yeah. I think like even that has like a generational impact, I think, because like how powerful you are to, you know, for them to, I mean obviously kids love their mum right? But like to see... Like it's so, such a disservice to women when, you know, like growing up, I feel like, I'm sure many people that listen to this will have experienced as well, you know, that the stalk delivers the babies and like it's just random bird. Yeah. Yeah, literally. But it's women and we birth them out of our bodies and like, it's like, we go through such a - journey and my to another planet to like bring this baby into this world. And that's us. That's all us. 100%. And for those boys to have witnessed this. Yeah. Whoa. I agree. I think that that's yeah. So powerful. Yeah. So important. So important and you know, obviously what comes with that is so much honesty, you know, lead up to her birth, you know, they did just as much prep as, you know, I did, you know, we watched their birth videos. Yeah. They asked all the questions. Yeah. Where's the baby come from? You know, we have to sort of what mum was going to sound like potentially. Yeah. You know, it was a beautiful journey and it's just like normal. Yeah. That's just, that's just it. Yeah. That's. nothing, there's nothing else there in the child's mind. Yeah. This is how babies are born. Yeah. Where they come from. Yep. Yep. It was just beautiful. Just beautiful. Wow. Everything I could have imagined in a sense to wrap, you know, completing the family. Yep. Yep. It sounds just like a, like a little storybook. Like I just kind of like, I think, you know, you told it so beautifully, like with the boys, like right there and, you know, Roman like looking over Lloyd's shoulder and just so beautiful. Yep. The for all the intensity of it, you know, I look back and really so, so blessed for how each birth is eventuated. Yeah. You know, I guess that comes with also, again, the societal impact of not feeling like you should talk too much about it. But also on the other hand, I think it's really important. Like I haven't just gotten lucky and achieved one completely natural physiological birth. I've done it three times now. Yeah. So possible. Right. Yeah. You know, it is so possible. And, and, you know, I would never tell anyone what they should or shouldn't do for their births, but this is, it is possible. Yeah. And achieve this. Yeah. You know, I get sometimes things happen for a reason and things go down different pathways. Yeah. As I say, my beautiful sister who's had quite a traumatic hospital birth with their first, a beautiful home birth with their second and a caesarean, a true emergency caesarean with 28 week old twins just recently. Things happen and you need to go with the flow but for the majority of women that are coming out of the hospital system dramatized, this doesn't need to happen and this whole notion of just you're done with pregnancy, just induction, you know, what, what's it matter? I think these are huge. There's going to be huge consequences to this. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, I mean, babies that are having this. Yeah. Such important moment of, you know, this is the beginning of their journey here. Yeah. On earth. Meddled with. Yeah. I think it's, it has a massive impact on human beings. Yeah. The whole of society. So. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, I agree. Well, thank you so much for telling and sharing your stories. Like just, I mean, like also, you know, to go back very briefly on that point, it's like these didn't happen by chance. You intentionally set out to achieve this and you intentionally put in place measures to have your best chance at that. And I think, yeah, like it just, natural birth doesn't just happen naturally anymore. No, you know, like, yeah, that was the big realization at the start of my baby journey. Yeah. You got to work, you got to work at it. Yeah. You know, yeah. So many things in place that will inhibit that from happening. If you don't. you don't fully trust yourself. Yeah. What you want. Yeah. Educate yourself and go for it. Yeah. It's, yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. Thank you so, so much. Did you have any final words or anything like that to add that we've missed or? I don't think so. I mean, I'll look back and think, I didn't know. We would be here for hours. Yeah. We'll leave it at that. I think, you know, I did one important thing to say is that I did often, you know, for a while think, my, how lucky I was to achieve all these, you know, really easy, very positive, very empowering birth experiences. But. Now, that's what normal should just be. That's just, they're just normal births. Nothing special about it. I just, you know, that's how it just should be naturally. Like that's how women have birthed. Yeah. Forever. Yeah. So I think it's important to have that perception of what's normal. Yeah. Because normal is very different these days. Exactly. Very different. my goodness. Thank you so, so much, Bec. My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. Of course.