Freebirth after 4 obstetric led hospital births, PPH & meconium aspiration syndrome || Kate's birth of Henry at home (New South Wales)

Episode 40! Today we hear how after 4 obstetric led hospital births, Kate began exploring her options for birth at home - but with uncertainty around private midwife availability, Kate instead chose to have a freebirth with her 5th baby. Whilst we don't cover her 4 hospital births in detail Kate does not go in to detail about her 4 hospital births however it is helpful to note that she experienced a post partum haoemoorraheg with her 3rd baby and her 4th baby was diagnosed with meconium aspiration syndrome and spent much of her first year of life on       oxygen. I think it’s important to include such details because it really contrasts how different her freebirth journey was - in a complication free birth and post partum. Kate also reflects on the importance of good support and self belief.


Resources: 

• The Rhomus of Michaelis https://www.sarawickham.com/articles-2/the-rhombus-of-michaelis/

Learn more about me, my offers as a doula & the podcast here: https://www.birthingathome.com.au

Chapters

• 4:49 Learning of Homebirth
• 28:40 Embracing the idea of Freebirth
• 42:29 Trusting oneself and the body's ability to give birth

Transcript

0:02

You're listening to Birthing at Home, a podcast. I'm Elsie, your host. I recorded this episode on unceded Wurundjeri land in Nam, Melbourne, Australia, where Aboriginal peoples had been birthing at home on country for thousands of years prior to the British invasion. They are the original storytellers. If you want to learn more about me, the podcast or how I can support you in achieving your home birth, be sure to check out my Instagram at birthingathome.com. episode 40 is shared by Kate in New South Wales who after four births in a hospital under obstetric care, chose to free birth in her fifth pregnancy with just the support of her partner. Kate doesn't go into detail about her four hospital births in this episode. However, it's really helpful to note that she experienced a postpartum hemorrhage with her third baby and her fourth baby was diagnosed with meconium aspiration syndrome and spent much of her first year life on oxygen. I think it's really important to include such details because it really contrasts how different her free birth journey was in a complication free birth and postpartum. Kate also reflects on the importance of good support and self -belief. It was great to record with Kate and I know you'll really love this episode. Enjoy. Welcome Kate to Birthing at Home, a podcast. Thank you. Thank you for joining me today, even with a sore back. Yeah. Kate, this is actually, I was looking back at our messages and I think maybe we started chatting in maybe like November or something. Yeah. So it's been like a long time coming. Yeah. It was, it was ages ago because we, yeah, we started chatting and then, well, I think just life happened. Yeah, but Christmas because you have such a big family and then it was like so busy. Yeah. It was so busy, my word. Yeah. I'll get you to give like a bit of an intro to who you are, who's in your family and where you're located. Okay, well, obviously, I'm Kate in my family. So we've got my partner and I have my partner Evan and I have a beautiful blended family of seven children all together. So he brought two lovely children to our family, Summer and Ryan, who are 10 and just about to turn eight. And I brought four kids. I brought Archie, who's 15, Atticus is 12, Barney is 10, and Winnie is eight. And then we created Henry, who is about 15, 16 months now, something like that. Not good at, I'm not good at keeping track of these things anymore. So many birth dates to remember. Yes. So many. And I, yeah, my Evan, someone asked me Evan's birthday the other day and I told them the dog's birthday accidentally. That was awkward. Cut that bit out. And so what's the name of your elder? Sorry. Archibald Archie. And so Archie is 15. Yes. And then Henry is 15 or 16 months. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He was one on the 1st of December. So where are we at now? Yeah. Whatever. I'm getting up there. He's one. He's one. And so your first four babies were born in hospital. They were. Yes. And today we're going to give or hear a bit of a brief overview of those experiences. But what we're really here to talk about is you then choosing a free birth. Yeah. Yeah. From one extreme to the other. Private hospital with an obstetrician and the same obstetrician for three out of four of the births. Yeah. To. Yeah. Yeah. Free birth is what we want to do. Wow. And Evan, were his two children also born in hospital? They were born in hospital. Yes. Yeah. Wow. Wow. So I guess like before you had those, you know, birth experiences with your first four, did you know anything about birthing at home? I think with my first, I didn't really, I mean I did, I knew about home birth but it wasn't something I really considered. I didn't, I just didn't really think about it. I just always thought, I'll give birth in hospital and I knew the big hospital, private hospital close to us so I was like, go to a private, I just thought you have to go to an obstetrician, you have to go to a. you know, private hospital and that's where you get the best treatment and that's where you get looked after and that's what I thought with my first. After that, I started to be a little bit more wary of the system, I suppose. Just became a little, I think I just became a little bit more interested in everything and did some kind of educated myself and then yeah, after that I actually was keen to, I did, I sort of did hypnobirthing. So I went and did, I did it by myself though for my second baby. And then third baby, I actually went and did a hypnobirthing course. And then fifth baby just, I kind of was pretty. Confident by then that I I knew what I was doing. Yeah But I would have birthed those guys at home. However, I didn't have people around me who felt confident in that choice and I think that that contributed a lot to me just choosing to To not push back against that I pushed back against a lot of things. I Yeah. But I didn't push back against not birthing in in hospital. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So do you remember like what your you know, you said that you you maybe would have birthed at home. Do you remember like why you felt that, you know, maybe home was an OK place to give birth? So with my first baby, I had an obstitute. It was a fight the entire time. The entire time from my first appointment, I remember her telling me that I was carrying large. You know, I was what, three months or something. I was carrying large and she was already placing the seeds of doubt in my mind about. you know, caesareans and this, that and the other just, you know, we could schedule, you know, there's benefits to that for you and it's convenient. And I was just like, what? And then from then on, every single appointment, it was like, you've got a very big baby, you've got a very narrow pelvis. you know, I don't, I don't just constantly placing those seeds of doubt. I was fighting against it, fighting against it. Then as I sort of came towards term, you know, even ultrasounds, it's big, massive baby, huge baby. And I was like, okay, well, I was determined that I was going to birth vaginally, birth to me. That was just what I would do. That was just in my head. I was like, well, that's what I'm going to aim to do. and so during that pregnancy, I, because of that fight and that pushback that I had to do, I started to educate myself during that pregnancy. So I spent hours upon hours on the internet, watching, and reading about births of big babies. and of, you know, Google back then, you know, so back then I'd be like Google. small women, big baby, you know, birthing big babies. And I'll be like, this woman, she can do it. That means I can do it. Just really doing a lot of that and a lot of research around induction and things, because she was constantly pushing induction. And when, yeah, I had to, I had to fight. When I came to, I think I was 40 weeks, she was like, all right, well, let's, let's schedule induction. I was like, nope. And they were calling me trying to get me to schedule an induction. I was like, nope. And then eventually I gave in and I think on 41 weeks, I said, all right, fine, you can do the gel. And so I went into hospital. They gave me gel. It didn't do anything. And she tried to convince me to be put on. you know, to be put on the drip to go up a level. And I said, no, no, I'm not going to do that. And they didn't want me to leave. She didn't want me to leave. And I had to fight and fight to be allowed to leave the hospital. And so I went home and then she said, all right, well, we're scheduling you for 42 weeks. I'm not going to let you go past that. And so again, back then I was very, very different. I obviously still had some intuition inside me that knew that I was capable and knew what birth could be. But I was very different. I didn't know what I know now. It was my first baby. I wasn't confident. And so I kind of was like, OK, fine. Forty two weeks. okay. Fine. Fine. You will do an induction on 42 weeks. so the night before my induction was scheduled on 42 weeks, I came into labor, started labor, which I think my body, you know, my feel like my, my brain made that happen because I was so scared. and anyway, that, that birth was not fantastic. And that. obstetrician actually said to me while I was pushing on my back. she, she made me have pethidine when I first got to hospital because she said, you won't be able to stand the pain. so they made me take pethidine, which made me vomit constantly. and then blah, blah, blah. she ended up. while I was pushing telling me, you need to push, get this baby out right now, or I'm going to call upstairs for a, for a C-section. like literally while I was pushing and I, I, I lay in that bed and I begged her, I said, please, please, please in tears, give me one more chance. I know I can do it. And she said to me, she said, one more chance. And my mom was there and my partner at the time, they said, you turned purple, your head almost turned inside out. Cause I was so determined that, you know, I had been threatened that if you can't do this. And so then that caused a lot of issues for me physically. And the recovery wasn't fantastic and everything. So, yeah, basically that first birth really, I think, prepared me and made me very, very determined to make things different in future. Yeah. For myself and my babies and. Yeah. Yeah. It just I had to I had to really, really fight. Yeah. Every step of the way. Yeah. And so then so after. Did you say Archie? Yes. After Archie, you had three more babies with a different obstetrician? Yeah. So I actually, so after Archie, we ended up, we went back to, so my ex, my four children's father is British and we actually went back to England for a little bit. And then we went to Tasmania. And then when we, came, moved back up here to the Northern Rivers. We weren't actually quite sure if we were going to move to Brisbane or Northern Rivers. We actually ended up in Brisbane. So I kind of decided to pick a hospital in between the two because again, I wasn't scared about, I was like, I'll have no problem driving there. It's not going to take me. you know, I was like, if I have the baby on the side of the road, that's fine, that's fine. Like I always felt completely supremely confident that if, you know, I had an hour drive to the hospital, that'd be fine anyway, because either I'd get there or I'd have the baby in the car. I just didn't worry about it. And so I was very lucky that I actually, I got a particular obstetrician, It's at Shugun Hospital at John Flynn at the coast and the obstetrician that I had seen for some reason, I don't know, I think he did something dodgy because then all of a sudden he wasn't there anymore and they sent me to a new obstetrician. They said, we think that you'll really like this obstetrician. He's very, he works closely with a midwife and he's very... supportive of his mom's he's very very he was one of the first You know first obstetricians who was very much into the water birth water birth and he just he kind of He's they're like he likes to work with his mom's. Yeah, I was like, okay, and I did like him and it's true that for an obstetrician he was he was very open to listening and allowing, that's not a word that should be used, but you know, it's the reality and that it is the reality. so he was a lot more open to that. and I did, I continued, to go back to, to see him after that, because, again, the people around me were very much. not comfortable with me birthing outside of hospital environment. And I really kind of took that to heart. And I felt that I that if you know, so my second birth was a lot different to my first. And so yeah, I felt more more capable of I didn't have to push quite as hard. I didn't have to fight as hard. I trusted that if I was going to be in a hospital, it was going to be with someone that I knew and yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When was like, you know, because you could have, you know, hired a midwife presumably. But, you know, so how so with Henry. Yeah. How did you like what at what point we allowed? Yeah. Rebirth. Yeah, well by this point after baby number four, honestly, I should have just had her at home. You know, I was supremely confident. Supremely confident in what I was doing. So by the time I became pregnant with Henry, I was just so, so... different in my mindset in that I was just supremely confident. I'd been, even though I hadn't been, had my home births that I had wanted to have, I had been a member of like home birth groups for years and everything like that. So I believed in home birth. I believe that home birth was the best choice where possible. And just because I hadn't. Had it had that experience yet. I just it was it was what was gonna happen. It was just that's it So I Did consider we did consider a midwife. However being down near Lismore With the floods three of the midwives who are contacted who were recommended to me were all kind of not practicing the time that I was like one of them, her house had been washed away. So this is December. Well, this was so when I was when I was looking at it. Yeah, it was like kind of when it had not long happened. So it was yeah. So her house had been washed away. one of them, her business had been washed away. One of them, yeah, that would just still taking a hiatus to try and get their lives back in order because their lives had been destroyed by the floods basically. So then I was like, geez, what am I going to do? and so I kind of got it in my head that, well, I'm going to do this anyway. Yeah. Yeah. So that's where I kind of. You always had like. the confidence that you very much, you know, hadn't had the right support very much. Yeah. You know, the right people around you like, yeah. And so just pausing here, everyone, to thank the June sponsor of the podcast, which is Earthy Birth. If there is one thing that has been missing from the home birth scene, it is aesthetically pleasing birth pools until now. Earthy Birth is a small family owned business. and they're proud to offer professional quality off -white berth pools made from thick eco PVC and are designed for 40 plus uses. That's a lot of home births guys. They also offer stunning disposable floor length liners uniquely designed so that they protect the whole pool and that they don't slip off into the pool. Not only that, the liners come with optional artistic designs printed on the base to make your birth space even more beautiful. Earthy Birth also stocks plenty of other home birth supplies such as hoses, tap adapters, pumps, robozos, birth combs, fairy lights and much more, all in gorgeous earthy tones. They offer both purchase and hire with free shipping Australia wide for all orders over $50. Visit earthybirth .com .au today. Thanks so much, Earthy Birth and enjoy the rest of this episode, everybody. So when does... Evan come into the picture. So Evan, did you, I guess, not so much when did Evan come into the picture, but did Evan know much about your previous birth experiences? Yeah, yeah, he did. Yeah, he, he, I mean, I don't, yeah, I think he knew about my very, very strong stance on birth and natural birth. And I'm, very much, I guess you could say staunch kind of, you know, I don't know, I'm very, I've breastfed all of my kids sort of into toddlerhood and you know, tanfed and I'm a, you know, baby, baby worn, baby weird, you know, co -slept bedshed. So he knew all about that. We've definitely spoken about birth and. I am absolutely sure that after a few wines, I have got on my high horse and spoken about the hospital system and how women are pushed into thinking that they need to have all of these interventions and I've banged on about the cascade of interventions to him and the poor man's just, yeah, he knew what I was like. He knew what he was getting into. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's amazing. I guess, you know, reflecting on those experience, your personal experiences and like people can have positive hospital experiences and whatnot. But, you know, in, in your own words, like how would you describe how it made you feel having those experiences? I'm exhausted because even with a with a good obstetrician, I felt like I had to fight constantly. I had to be on top of things to know what was really necessary, what they were going to, you know, I felt like I didn't ever feel 100 % that my... I was the priority, my baby was the priority. You know, their systems and procedures are always going to have to come first. And I wanted, you know, and there are times where that is incredibly important and that does make the baby the priority because of the, you know, there are times when those procedures have to be there for the... the safety and the priority of the baby. But then there's times that those procedures make the baby come second and make the mom come even much further down the list. Yeah. Yeah. Well, they're blanket kind of. Yeah, very much. Well, they're not statements, but like, you know, blank, blank things. Yeah. We're all individuals and individuals. Very much. and they, they can, by using those blanket procedures, they can sometimes make things go wrong for you because you, you are not like the same as. you know, Wendy, who had a birth yesterday who needed this procedure. And so they are like, well, you know, we're going to do this procedure on you too, because of some reason. And then that actually causes your body to react in a different way, which sends your baby into distress. And it's like, Ooh, so many and some, and it's one thing that I found. I guess discovered along the way or became more aware of along the way is the whole idea. I think I started to get a little inkling of it when I started to look into hypnobirthing and how important it is for us to feel safe and how much our feeling of safety can impact on the way that our bodies actually react to birth and to the hormones of birth and to you know, just the physicality of birth. And so I kind of built my strength of understanding of that up along the way. And there are some women who hospital will, if they want to, even if they really want to have a so -called natural birth, hospital will be the best place for... that to happen for them because that's where they will feel the most safe. Yeah. And that's important. Really important. That's, you know, and sometimes if they learn more about things and they can start to feel, they can start to realize that being at home is, you know, just to say if not safer in so many ways. But for some reason, some women, they just never. They're just never going to feel that. And again, we're all individuals. And that should mean, yeah, like, yeah, nobody's saying everyone should birth at home. Not at all. Not at all. Not at all. Not at all. By any means, it's like it's the norm to birth in the hospital. And I just think that's insane. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When, yeah, actually, when you say, I'm sure like when, you know, you've told certain people that you had your baby at home. without any support, like you would be called insane. It's just like so... absolutely. Not just insane, but irresponsible and you don't care about your baby and you don't care if your baby dies and just, my God, she's mental. And it's like, no, mate, I think you're a little bit mental if you let yourself be pushed around by doctor and end up getting your tummy cut open for no reason. Not... Not, not that that's never necessary. A hundred percent is, but if that's not what you want or really, really need, then let's try and push against it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. yeah. So, yeah. So many problems. Because that's a big thing. That's a big procedure. That's a big thing that we should be like, no, no, no, no, no. Hey guys, hey ladies, let's try and avoid this where possible. Yeah. Because. Yeah, I saw like something on Instagram the other day and it was like the comparison of a, like a knee replacement surgery and a C -section and the amount of support that people receive after having knee reconstruction versus C -section and I was like, you get like nothing. Any procedure, how about like the, you know, any procedure a woman gets compared to, I don't want to, my poor, poor Evan and I had to. He had to listen to me bang on about this just a couple of nights ago. So, so, so true. I mean, it's very problematic, but it's very amazing that you, I mean, yeah, that is so tough that, you know, you try and seek out a midwife, but like, if there's no midwives. Yeah. Really about like, what you gonna do? Yeah. So exactly. when did it like, when? You know, you kind of had learned that like midwives might not be able to attend your birth and like, you know, free birth would be like the path that you would take. Yeah. Like, how did you feel? Were you like a bit like worried or nervous or excited or? I felt. relaxed and resigned. Yeah. I felt like, okay, well, this is it then. Like it was, yeah, that was just in, in my head. What that was what I was aiming for. because there's another little interesting part of the story is that I did develop high blood pressure. Yeah. Okay. So I went, So I actually went to my GP and I spoke to her about the fact that I was, this was before, you know, I had fully made the decision that it was going to be free birth. I was still, you know, trying to locate somewhere that I could home birth or that had even just a, you know, a birthing center or something in the area. Like I think. maybe Byron or Mullin Bimby have a midwife program and I was trying to get in somewhere. I went to my GP and so I was having problems with my blood pressure. And when I told her about my intentions to have a home birth, she said, no, you won't be doing that. And that's when I went, I'm sorry, sorry, I don't think you know me very well because you don't tell me. not to do something. It just made it worse. It did not happen. Yeah. Anyone who knows me knows, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, Although I believe in, you know, our body's ability to birth, you know, in its own and everything, I also really, really believe in that when we need an intervention or if we need medication, then that's what it's there for. So I'm not like some s - This is just me. Like I am, if something goes wrong or if there's an emergency, I'm happy to go to the doctor or go to hospital. It's just the fact is I don't believe that birth is an emergency or necessarily a reason to be at the hospital. But when my blood pressure was dodgy, which could have potentially affected my baby, for me, it felt responsible to. keep that in check with a specialist. Yeah, that makes sense. But I just didn't tell him my intentions. That's brilliant. And like, I guess, you know, through this whole thing, because you you would have had children that were like a little bit older, did they have an understanding of like the path that you were choosing to take? Yeah, very much. Yeah, they told everyone. You know, mom's having a baby at home and everything like that. They knew that. But my mom, who is probably, I think, mom's nerves about the whole idea of it, because fair enough, you know, I'm her child and she was nervous about something happening to me, but I took that very much on board for my other births. And... This time I just really was determined that no it is gonna be okay and I want to show her as well that it is okay. Yeah, that it's gonna be okay and it's gonna be good. It's gonna be better. Yeah I wanted to show her that too. So she didn't really believe I kept saying no, no, no, I'm gonna stay home I'm gonna have the baby at home. Yeah, and she's like and I'm like look mom if at any point I said look if at any point I feel like something is unsafe, I promise you, I will use the hospital for what a hospital is intended for. Yeah. and that was my intention all along. There was never if, if, and that, I sort of reassured on a number of occasions by partner, my fiance, Evan, with that too, that I am not going to refuse if you. It was, it's a fine line because I had to explain to him that, you know, when you're kind of in a vulnerable state of when you're laboring, you know, other people's attitudes can imprint on you pretty easily. So I didn't, I really needed him not to panic and be scared and make me panic and be scared and think, I needed. So I was sort of like, if there's anything. that you're genuinely worried about and I really, I don't seem very well during the labor or you think that something's not right. If you talk to me about it and you still genuinely think this isn't safe anymore, then I promise you we will go to the hospital. Yeah. because yeah, like I said, I, hospitals are wonderful places to, to sick people. Yeah. Yeah. But if I wasn't sick, I wasn't. you know, or if I didn't think that my baby was unsafe, then there was no reason for me to be there in my eyes. Yeah. Yeah. I think I might've got off track. I don't know. So you saw the obstetrician. Did you like, like connect with any other supports during the pregnancy or? I did have not medical support. No. I did. have super duper low iron towards the end. And it was so bad that so we have sort of a, it's a two and a half story house. So it's kind of two stories, but we've got kind of like a landing in the middle. And I couldn't walk from the bottom of the house up to the top without having a little sit down and a puffed out rest on the middle landing. Like I was, exhausted. And so I weighed up my options and I did end up having an iron infusion at that point because I had also had a pretty significant hemorrhage in one of my previous after one of my previous babies. So that's another safety option that I was kind of making a conscious choice about. about what can I do to prevent this? What can I do to make this as safe as possible? And I think in hindsight, that was a really great option because it made me, it was amazing. I know some women, it makes them feel really, really sick and they, you know, it's not great for everyone. We all have to weigh up risk versus benefits. But for me, for my personal circumstances, both, the kind of current ones in historically, that's what I felt I needed to do. So that was kind of the other medical, I suppose, intervention that I had. Yeah. During the point, the however many appointments with the obstetrician or whatever, was it mostly about your blood pressure or did he like suggest for you to do tests? No, yeah, he did. He. tried, yeah, he tried to get me to do all the tests and I just either brushed it off or just didn't go to get them. Yeah. I did have, no, I'm sorry. I went, I did have, I did have the morphology scan again because I wanted the option to know whether it would be safest for my baby. to be in a hospital if there's something had come wrong on the morphology scan. I wanted to be able to make that choice to, you know, maybe be at, you know, Brisbane Children's Hospital or be birthed somewhere if it was required. So I did choose to have that scan. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And that's just, yeah, like. compared to, you know, for previous pregnancies with, you know, having to fight. Yeah, it does sound way more relaxing, even like that engagement with the obstetrician. I think having in your mind that like, well, actually, it's going to be different this time because this is my plan. Like that sounds. Yeah, it was. And it was also funny to me too, because I'd be sitting there and I'd be like, my god. That's entertaining this. That's so funny. And you know when he started, we're getting towards the end and he's like, well you probably don't want to go over too long. And I'm like, like, mate, I've told you my history that like I've gone what all of my, like 42 weeks, 43 plus something, 43. Yeah. I'm like, Do I sound like someone who wants to be induced? But he kept being like, you're not going to want to go too much long. If I go in there and I'd be tired or sore or something, you know, he's like, how are you doing? This is sort of towards the end when I had a couple of extra runs, just keep a, you know, close on that blood pressure when things can get a little bit dangerous. So I had a few and he'd be like, well, you don't want to go too much longer. And I'm like, yeah. Yep. And he's like, he even said, you know, maybe, you know, at 40 weeks or maybe 41 something, he's like, maybe you just something come in, you know, I can just give you a little check, give you a little sweep. And I just cracked up laughing. I was like, yeah. Yeah. Nah. Like, no, stop it. I wonder what was going through his mind. Like, that's so funny. What was, I was just like, but he. Lovely like he was really lovely and I'm making it sound like he was like he actually He works closely with A lot of the midwives in in the region and with home births and stuff. He's he's a beautiful amazing man. Yeah, I just Yeah, I just I didn't want to fight anymore. I don't want to fight anyone anymore. Yeah, I've just it's it's been this being too many. Yeah, I pushing, pushing, pushing, pushing for no reason. Yeah. So I just, I feel bad. I feel bad because he was really nice and lovely. And I was like, but this guy has no idea. And was the plan or the hope that like the kids would be home or? No, I, I really wanted. well, I mean, it wasn't going to be like, you know, if the kids were home and all was well and good, I was happy for them to stay here and be here. However, I know from my previous labors that I very, very, very much go into a zone, an otherworldliness where I don't, you know, I'm just a block of wood that shuts my eyes and don't talk to anyone. So, I guess I didn't want, I would have loved to them to have experienced it and been around, but I just, I didn't know, you know, so we were kind of, if they were, they were going to go and hang out with my mom while I was laboring or whatever, if it came to that. Yeah, but basically, What did happen was I, that's right. So I kind of had an inkling. And this was at what I was, you know, I think I was like, you know, supposedly, technically 10 days. So what 41 plus what is that three? I don't know. I can't count. And I like go back to math. that's not going to work. I just, I had an inkling that afternoon and I was really uncomfortable and I just, I wanted, I asked mum if she could have the kids for that night just so that we could spend some, so my partner and I ever could just spend some time together and I just really wanted to. snuggle up and get all those, you know, lovely love hormones happening. Cause by this time I did, I did want to have this damn baby. So I just wanted to snuggle. I think like somebody said this to me the other day because I recently interviewed an amazing mom, her episode's going to be released next week, who had a free birth with twins, right? And I told like another friend, like, you know, like, she was however many weeks, with twins, whatever. And she said, she must've been so uncomfortable. And I was like, well, hell I've, I've carried, I've had two, two, two births, two babies, big babies. but I don't think anyone feels comfortable at the end. You could be having 10 babies. Yeah. Though one, sure you might be a bit more uncomfortable if you have 10, but like the end of pregnancy is like mentally horrible. It is. Physically horrible. There is like, especially, you know, I personally don't enjoy pregnancy. So it feels like the accumulation of just all of this discomfort. Yeah. I have crap pregnancies because I have HG for the first. three, four months. And then I have heartburn that one time maybe vomit in the frozen food section at Woolworths. Whoa. Yeah. Like, this is like heartburn that made me, that was a fun time. Like I would be, just the worst thing ever. And then also like, symphysis, pubis, dysfunctions. I can't roll over in bed. So I'm like, I just wanted to get this. It is uncomfortable. Like nobody's saying, I hear actually quite often like people say, so sick. I'm done. I'm done. I'm just going to get induced. I just want it to be done. And I'm like every single. Yeah. I know. It feels done. It does. But the thing is you've got this far. You're so close. You're so close mate. Look what you have been through to get this far and I'm done. Yes, you're done, but you can go a little bit. Just hold on. Hold on. But the thing is, you know, they - Yep. They get you whilst you're weak. They get you when you're vulnerable. That's what they do. Yeah. And like what that obstetrician said - And they trick you. Yeah. I'll just, I'll just do a little check. yeah. Just a little check. just have a little check and maybe a little sweepy swoop while I'm there. Yeah. I did not have anyone insert their digits. Yeah. Well, any medical people insert, you know, while I was, I was, I said no to all cervical checks for that entire pregnancy. I didn't have any for the two pregnancy, even though I had an obstetrician, I didn't have, I did. Denied. Yeah. Cervical, vaginal check for the two previous pregnancies as well. Yeah. Because I was like, sorry, wait a second. Sorry, what's it going to tell you? Yeah. Pardon, it's going to tell you that I might have the baby in half an hour or I might have the baby in two days. So sorry, why are you going to poke around in there? Yeah. No, like. Yeah, it's and you know what it's probably gonna do. It's probably gonna make me go right. Yeah, and then it's gonna be less likely to want to come out. It's so true. Get your fingers away. Exactly. If I want to. So you're cuddling up. You're like, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. There's oxytocin. I just wanted to snuggle and have oxytocin and have loving and loveliness. And yeah, so I was I knew by bedtime when we kind of decided to try and go to sleep, I knew because I think I'd had like a bloody show by that time. Like I'd gone to the bathroom and gone, here we go. But I didn't really say anything to him because I didn't want, I wanted him to get sleep. And I also knew that it could still be another week. You know. I was like, I don't want anyone else to know so that I don't feel the pressure to, is it, are you feeling, are you feeling something? Are you feeling something? Yes, I'm feeling contractions. I've been feeling them for the past week and a half. So just stop asking me. Like I had horrible prodromal. All of my babies were, all, but Henry, my last were, Posterior. well, system posterior. They were all born posterior. So I kind of know what it's like to have long drawn out. is it? Isn't it starting stopping? So I expected that that's what would be happening this time as well. I expected that he would be posterior. I figured I'm going to have another back labor. I'm going to have another posterior baby. That's just it. That's how I do it. Yeah. And that's that's what I thought. Turns out. No, he was, he was a very good little boy and he wasn't, but, yeah. So, then about 11 o 'clock at night, it was kicked in for good. And I knew, and he, slept and I just quietly labored throughout the night, going to the toilet. just coming back to bed up and down. And he tells me like. Time goes fuzzy, you know, he tells me it was about five ish that I woke him up. He's like, that was the first noise I heard you make all night. And then he was like, here we go. It's on. Yeah. So, have like, has there been, you know, across your five births and laters, has there been any like consistency in duration? Or have they all been quite different? The first three were very... They were long. They were, you know, sort of a couple of, I think, yeah, like... Sort of, I... But, see, I don't know, because again, it wasn't... consistent, because it was very much stop and start. So it'd be very intense for, you know, a day and then it kind of slowed down and then it'd be intense. So yeah, yeah, they were long, even the, you know, the, the doctors, the midwife, whatever they said that they will. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was long, but you know, what do you, what am I going to compare it to? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All I can compare it to is that. so my fourth, she was, I think relatively quick. What would she have been like, you know, maybe like 14 hours, something like that. And then Henry was quick as a wink. Yeah, really? So, so you wake Evan up at five and kind of like, accidentally, like, yeah, it's like, like time started to blur. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so none of the kids are home. No, they're at granny's. They're at grandma's. Had you like thought about like any different things that you would use during labour that you wanted to test out or? Well, I had, so when we just to quickly touch on the, I guess, safety aspect, I had sort of done a course in neonatal resuscitation. I, you know, I felt, you know, I felt prepared in that way. I just knew that I would want, well, I thought I would want darkness and closeness. I was lucky it wasn't. I had music, I had hypnobirthing tracks prepared. we had, you know, the room set up just nicely with dim kind of candles, fake candles, but, yeah, we just, I, I, we have a, like a corner bath, a spa. So I had considered getting a birth pill. So that's one thing I'd considered getting a birth pill. However, in my, so we're just going to put my first birth aside. but. The next three, we had a big birth pool in the birth suite I was in and I kept refusing to get in it. I didn't want to be in the water. I was like, no, but I would get in the shower, but they try and turn it on warm and I'd scream at them and turn it on cold. So during my labors, I'm like, I get really overheated and I just want to be cool. And so I kind of was like, well, I don't think I'm going to want to be in the pool. However, we did have the big corner bath and that was prepared with, I had like, like memory foam mats in there and stuff if I did want to use it. And so it was all ready to use if I did want to hop in the big, big bath. Didn't want to. Did spend some time in the shower with the water on cold again. but, you know, we had blueys and canvas sheets around everywhere and, and that kind of thing. So. Okay. Yeah. We had the hypno birthing tracts and everything and as it turned out it was a rainy day and all I wanted to was silence in the rain. That's all I wanted. I did not want anything else. So yeah. Well that's meditative in itself. Yeah. And we just kept the curtains shut and... Evan was sort of like, do you want a few times, just like, do you want me to put your music on or do you want me to put your tracks on? And I was just like, no, no, I didn't want that. I just wanted to be in my little cave. And it was absolute perfection that it was rain because it's one of my favorite sounds in the world. So it was so good. And what was, what was that label like then? well, I. One thing I wanted was to rest, to rest as much as possible and try to just really, really trust my body to do its thing. And so I was, because in previous... Pregnancies I previous labors. I remember just getting to the point of kind of transition and just being like I am too tired I can't Do this and I did do it But I just I didn't want that feeling anymore which I Mean, of course, you're gonna feel that like during labor like there's always gonna be that point and I hundred percent had that point but this time I lay down on the bed and I spend a lot of time just laying down. And I had a comb, a birth comb that I used. I just really, really internalized and just focused on my breathing very, very much. And I mean, at one point I did, I think as it turns out this again must have been transition because I remember starting to shake really, really badly. And that's when, and I had given Evan like a whole, like he was amazing. He was so willing to listen and learn and keen. What can we do? What can you, what can I do? What do I need to do? Cause this was a completely, he's like this experience, he said, could not be more different. to what he'd been through with his first, he's like, it could not be more different. Like it's the opposite. And he's like, your confidence, your just everything is like night and day. So he's like, I trust you. He's like, I trust you. Just tell you need to, he's like, I trust you, but I don't know. So you need to tell me what you need. And so I wrote him a list beforehand and it. basically explained to me, I said, look, I will start at some point, I'll start to say, I can't do this, I can't do this, I can't do this. At that point, it probably means that I'm close to doing it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I also said, I might, I said like transition happens when you. very close. It's like the time between your laboring and when you start to, okay, it's time now. And I said, so there's a number of things that could happen. And I explained hormones and adrenaline and everything. And I said, I might start to vomit. I might start to shake. I might start to scream. I'll be saying, I can't do this, you know, all of these things. So my full previous pregnancy is I I got the vomits. And that's my worst part. Like that was the, that's the only part of labor I would never do again is the vomiting because I don't like the vomiting. I don't mind the laboring, but the vomiting get rid of that. and so I was, that's, I was scared about that happening, but I didn't this time, but I got the shakes really badly and I was like, I need to go to the toilet. And so I stood in the hallway, just shaking. And that's when I was like, I can't do this anymore. I can't do this anymore. And he was amazing and he's like, you're doing amazing. You are doing this. You are doing this. Said all the right things. And then I went to the toilet and I sat down and he, I remember it's a bit of a joke between us because he said, don't grab onto that, which is the toilet paper roll is like, baby, don't grab onto that. It's not stable. And I grabbed onto the toilet roll holder, which is screwed into the wall and completely ripped it out of the wall. like ripped the like chunks of plaster and the screws and I was just like, and we were laughing about it the other day because there's still a divot there. And he's like, he's like, remember when you did that? And I was like, he's like, you were just looking at it in your hand and going, I'm sorry, I'm so sorry. And I'm like, shut up. And then there's still like a dent there because he like a few weeks later, he plastered it over and then one of the kids came well a few of the kids came along when the plaster was wet and slag -singer holes in it. So it's yeah, it's funny. It's just like we you know, you know, I just turned a light on myself. So yeah, so that happened and then went back. Went back to lying down and everything started to get very intense and obviously ramped up very, very close together and he was just He just sat at the end of the bed very quietly and I knew he was there but he didn't. He'd ask me, do you need anything? He'd bring my iced water and just quietly put it in because I told him I need you to remind me to drink. Your job is to make sure. I said your really, really important jobs are to make sure that I drink water and to make sure that I go. for a week regularly because both of those things can impact your body's ability. Yeah, your body's ability. So that's what he kind of focused on. And Buddy was very quiet other than that. And I was kind of, he was sitting down somewhere in the room, I don't even know. And I was lying down with my eyes closed. And then I remember feeling. the baby, the whole, so the entire time I was laboring, I could feel the baby moving around. And that was one thing I wanted as well. I wanted to be feeling, I wanted to feel, I wanted to be really, really in tune because if I was gonna do this, that I was gonna be in charge and this was my baby's safety was my responsibility. I really wanted to be in tune with my baby. And that's why I think I did a lot of lying down and a lot of. internal and quiet and so I could feel him moving the whole time and then I consciously felt him, like his head move down and I could feel my bones, like my pelvic bones like move apart, like grind apart into a different position and I went... And I went, okay. And that was the moment that he explains to me that he's like, you said, this is it. I need to kneel down. I don't think I said this is it. I said, I need to kneel down. And I jumped up and he said, and you nearly wrenched my fingers out of their socket. And he's like, I didn't know what was, what was going on. He's like, you were kneeling by the edge of the bed. I helped you get there and you were kneeling there. And then I had put up some. pictures on the wall and stuff, this and that. And he had his own cheat sheets that I'd made for him and he'd put them next to his wall. And at that point he says, he realized that I had the rhombus of Michaelis. Like, he could see it. And he's like, he said he was kneeling, standing, sitting, whatever, squatting behind me. And he said he looked at my pelvis, the back of my back. And he said he saw that lump. And he went, shit, wait, I know that means something. What does that mean? What does that mean? And that he ran over to the other side of the bed to his cheat sheet. And then he was like, my God, that means it's coming. So he sprinted back around and just got there just in time. Whoa. Because again, I felt like I was very much like, open to, I was open to cat. you know, catching or receiving baby myself or I didn't mind if he did or if I did. But as it turned out, I was very, very shaky and my arms very weak and I did that just wasn't going to be safe. He could have just dropped onto like I was slowed down. So that would have been fine, too. But I think it was really lovely that he received. So Henry, he was like, I could feel him. I was like, I felt at one point. Something kind of was stopping, something was restricting him from moving out fully. And so again, I had kind of researched different positions in this, that, and the other in case of emergencies. I didn't feel it was an emergency, but I did know, I said to him, I need to get one leg up. I need to get one leg up to give him room for his shoulders to come out. and so he helped me get one knee down and one knee, like leg right up. and then that's when everything he slid into position and then he came out. and he did come out. he, poor darling Evan didn't quite know what he was saying. He admitted afterwards because, Henry was born and call on call. yeah. So Evan didn't know what the hell that was. He said he was like, my God. He kind of, he's like, so he kind of half realized and he said, as I held his head and he came out, he said, I kind of pulled at it. And he said, and then it came off. and then he kind of, and then it. You know, yeah, Garth and he was like, okay, cool. Yeah, you and he had like a double nukle cord here. So he was holding me holding Henry. Yeah, he was still behind me. I was kneeling down with my hands over the bed just like kind of And he said he's he's cords around his neck his cords around his neck and I said that's fine. That's okay. Give me a second. I sat down and got he pass him to me and I don't remember doing this but I unraveled, he said you just unraveled his cord from around his neck and then just started rubbing his back and I just looked at him and he was a little bit gurgly so I just suctioned his nose a little bit like and then he started to, he was so aware straight away like we've got photos of which I'll send you photos of him like literally seconds after he handed him to me and he was just little Henry was just staring into my eyes like he was just staring into my eyes just like looking around like he was so alert. Yeah. And then I'll send you the video too because then it's like we didn't really that's not something like he snapped a few video a few photos and stuff throughout. the labor but that wasn't really a priority for me. I wanted some but that wasn't really a priority for me. But I was so glad that he did start recording because he, there's this video and he's going, you did it, you did it. And he was like half, I was laughing, I was cracking up laughing and his voice was almost in tears. He's like, you did it, you did it. And I was laughing and I was like I did it and then he said something he's like we've got a little boy and I went and I started cracking up laughing I'm like, do we cuz I hadn't even asked. Yeah, I didn't even know and I was like, wow and I had a look and yeah, we had a little boy and then yeah the video is just I was just laughing and laughing and I was like, my god, my god and he was laughing and he's like just he was in tears. He's like, that was amazing. Like he was, yeah. So wonderful. And it was just the three of us there. And it was just, you know, this is our house that we, this is our house that we own. And this is our, our bedroom that we own and our baby was born here. And it was just, yeah. Bloody special. Yeah. Yeah. how long was it until the placenta was born? Yep. Well, so I, after we'd been sitting there just for a few minutes, I did say, I want to try and go because again, because I had had the previous hemorrhage in my third birth, I did want to just be cautious. I said, can you, you know, help me. I just want to go to the bathroom. I want to do a wee, just in case anything's, I just want to make sure everything's good for the, you know, to the next part. So I think we stopped halfway. I said, I just want to have a little sit down. So I sat down on a step in the, to the, to the tub and I sat down and then I was holding Henry. And he just latched on. Like I was just holding him and then he just latched on and I was like, my God. And he's like, is that okay? And I'm like, yes, that's definitely okay. And I was like, that's good. Let's let him have a feed because that's going to help the placenta come as well. So we let him, and this was like five minutes. He just latched himself on without me even realizing. Probably a terrible latch, but he gave it a good go. And then I went into then we hopped up and I shuffled pussy was the placenta was still attached And Henry was still you know, he's on political call was still attached to everything. So we should I shuffled into the bathroom and then I started my toilet with him feeding and then yeah, I I can't 100 % remember I think my I gave birth my person a pretty Soon after that, I don't think it was in the toilet. I think it was like in front of the toilet. Yeah. So that was all luckily really, really easy. And again, I was really sort of cognizant of keeping the good, good feels and the good hormones coming to make that as easy as possible so that there wasn't any kind of, you know. Interruptions or problems with that when it came to. Cause that can be, you know, those can be issues and things. And I just wanted to avoid any problems. Wow. That's so, so beautiful. And like, How has that made you feel as like a woman, as a mom? Like, obviously you, you know, you have like been, I, you know, I saw something the other day that was like, you shouldn't call people like superwoman, but like you've, you've got four amazing children. Yeah. So presumably you already feel like I am woman. Yeah. I think there's. there's probably something quite different about 100%. You know, that's, that's all you, you, you and no one else, but you did all of that. How, how does that make you feel about? Well, I think it's the, I think it's even less the actual fact that I did it. I think the fact, I think that I'm fat. I think that I'm proud that I had the confidence in myself to do it. that I really, really believed in myself and I feel incredibly, it's privileged to what I don't know, just that I had such a wonderful, wonderful partner who he, he just really gave me so much trust and he just gave me really what I, what I needed. so yeah, I just felt, I just felt blessed and I felt. I didn't feel like I was better because I'd done it that way than I had the other way. Like I was, I was braver this time or anything. Cause any birth is bloody huge and takes bravery and strength and determination, whether it is, you know, a vagina birth or if it's an induction, if it's a, you know, a cesarean, all of those things are like, wow, women are incredible. But this one, I think it's just the fact that I had that confidence in myself. and I proved myself right. I think that that's given me a lot of, yeah, just confidence in my ability to trust myself and trust my body. And I really want other people, other women to feel that as well. That's the thing that I think is a big bunk bear of mine is, and I would never say. I'm never going to pick apart someone's birth, but it hurts my heart when a woman will say, I really wanted to have a, you know, a natural or a drug free or a vaginal delivery or whatever is important to them. But I couldn't do it because I had to have this and then I had to have this and then the doctor said this and then my baby was going to have problems if I didn't do this. And. I'm not there. I'm not in your shoes. I'm not the medical professional, but I do know statistically and just, I do know that had you not been pushed into those interventions, then the likelihood that you could have had the experience that you needed, it would have been more likely to happen. Yeah. I know that was really convoluted. I'm not sure how to explain myself. I think, I think that's a tough argument to prove nowadays that birth is physiological birth works because 90. Yeah. Least 95 % of women give birth in the hospital and you know, however many end up having inductions. Like, you know, that's not even like, or even intervention because they, the statistics don't include vaginal examinations as interventions. Exactly. There's not really anybody being given the opportunity anymore. All of it. And I see as the, I see the intervention and intervention starts when you have to stop your labor. and hop in the car and go to a different environment. That's the first intervention. Like being in a room that you're not comfortable in, that's an intervention. Having lights shining on you, that's an intervention. You know, having people questioning you. Like I said, like I didn't particularly, some people love having their kids around and that kind of thing. I didn't want anyone to bloody talk to me. Like I've got... people talking to me constantly all day, every day. Like even my, you know, beautiful fiance, like I didn't talk to him. I was inside myself. And if I had have been, had to have, and that is one thing as well is that I know like, and interestingly, he says that he's like, you didn't make any sounds. But he's like the whole time, the only time he heard you make a noise was when, when you woke me up the first time, like he's like, you made a moan. He said, you made some like little like moaning moans here and there. and he said, the only time was when I said, I need to get up, I need to kneel down. he said that came out of the blue. He's like, you were quiet, the whole room was quiet. And then boom, you said that. And then he said, I think, you know, as I was, he was coming out, I made it, made it. noise or something. And apparently that's what I was like in my other labors too, like I don't make a whole lot of noise. Apparently I moo like a cow, but you know, other than that, in transition I get very mooey. I get very low and guttural. That's physiological. Yeah, absolutely. Wow. And so the room that you're in right now. Yeah. That's where Henry was born. This is where Henry was born. Yes. And there's a look, some people will find this disgusting, but we find it quite hilarious. It's gone now, but there was a tiny little stain on the mat that we couldn't get out. And Evan was always like, that's where Henry was born. I'm like, yeah. Yeah. We thought that was funny. Yeah. Another funny thing is that, you know, we, Another disc, look, this is a birthy podcast. So I hope people who aren't disgusted by this type of thing are going to listen to it. And if anyone else I know listen to it, well, this is me. So just have to know about one of our, my God, we crack up about this all the time. He was washing the towels. Evan was washing the towels the next day, all the birth towels. And he said he found something on the towel when he was hanging it out on the line and he realized it was a bit of umbilical cord. So I just flicked it over the back fence and a kookaburra came and got it. It's returned to nature. That's amazing. That's beautiful. It is beautiful. I know. We nearly die telling people that story and people are so disgusted by that and we're like, we love it. Yeah, that's brilliant. That's brilliant. The kookaburras will be thriving. I know. They're so stoked. So there's probably some tree growing down the back of our house. It's Henry's tree. So some people bury their placenta under a tree. We just get a kookaburra to poo out a bit of... I mean, can it get any cooler than that? I know, it's nature. It's nature, exactly. That's amazing. Thank you so, so much for sharing. such an incredible story, like, you know, for private obstetrician, modeler care, labor, birth experiences, and then, just like completely free of all of that drama of all of that stress. I can, I say something really quickly. I know it's at the end, but I want to. kind of say like I am not, you know, I don't want anyone to think that I'm some, you know, amazing superhuman who wasn't scared or didn't have concerns or was just so, so fear free going into birth and was like, I absolutely have confidence, but I am like any normal human being. I had anxieties and fears and I was like, my God, what if, what if, what if, But the way that I handled that is by just going back and looking at the facts and looking at the research and looking at everything that really, really supported that. No, this is a safe choice. And I had, you know, I had a lot of affirmations and things up and a lot of my affirmations were, well, a few of them went because I did go through, there was one point where I hit a wall and I did start to get worried. And I was like, shit, what am I doing? Am I making a wrong choice? and that's when I went and looked and I did some affirmations and I would say to myself, one of them was fear is a liar. So basically fear is telling me a lie. Fear is, you know, this is just, I don't need to believe fear all the time. Like fear absolutely has its place, but you need to look deeper. Yeah. So just because I was feeling fear, didn't mean that it was a bad choice or a dangerous choice. And also I think one that I was looking at when again, I must have been nearing transition and I was thinking, God, God, God. I think it was like, feel the fear and do it anyway. Feel the fear and do it anyway. So that's when I started to feel like, God, I'm going to have to push this baby out soon. I'm going to push this baby out soon. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. And I just kept looking at this one affirmation, feel the fear and do it anyway, feel the fear and do it anyway. So I realized that that's how I had to get past the fear was not deny the fear, but accept that it's part of the journey. Yeah. That's yeah. But that's, that's how I got past that. Yeah. Yeah, that's beautiful. And yeah, I guess we didn't really talk too much about the fears, but I think that's also, you know, a good summary that like, yeah, the fears come up like we care like, you know, going back to the very beginning. I think you said something about like the fear mongering of like, you don't care about your baby. Yes, absolutely. No, actually, we really care. Really, really care. Like we really care. Anything that comes up, any possibility you're looking into and you're deep diving into it. Yes, very much. And very, very much willing to get to a point where we like are not. You know, we're not just these crazy people who just, I'm not, I am by no means like airy -fairy, an airy -fairy individual. I'm very much about the facts and statistics and the real ones though, the real ones, not the ones that they give you to tell you if you do this, your baby's gonna die. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait so I'm not airy -fairy by any means. so I know that there are possibilities of things going wrong. I know that there are risks, but it's the same in a hospital. Like, you know, it can happen in a hospital. Like it's, this isn't kind of part of the discussion now, but my daughter, my now beautiful, strong eight year olds. she was very un well, she aspirated meconium at birth because, things could have been done differently. So yeah, there are risks. There are things that happen to babies and moms in hospital that cause great damage and they don't happen at home. So, you know, for anyone to say, you chose. You know, you chose to birth in a hospital at home because you don't care about your baby's safety. It's like, well, if I tell you my story and we go into detail, then I can maybe you'll understand that. No, that is actually not the truth. Yeah. If you're going to say home isn't safe, then hospital is also not safe. Absolutely. You have to pick your risks. You have to weigh, you know. Yeah. Anyway, that was just a little, I wanted to put that on the end there because yeah, I'm not, yeah, we, if you are planning on a home birth or a free birth or anything and you have fears, you are normal. You're not weak. You're still, you're brave. You're brave just to be having, going through labor, pregnancy labor, birth. So. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. You're not weak to have fears. Perfect. I love that. Thank you so much, Kate. Thank you so much. That was lots of fun.