Mental Health Doula, Choosing Homebirth & Importance of Post Partum Planning || Emma's birth of Ada at home (South Australia)

Episode 37 is shared today by Emma in South Australia. Emma is a Mental Health Doula with 2 children, 1 who was born at home! Today she shares what a mental health doula is, her work in post partum and antenatal counselling, the importance of post partum planning, and of course her experience in finding and choosing homebirth! A very interesting episode especially if, like me initially, you aren't sure of what a mental health doula is! 

Resources: 

• Emma's website and services https://emmaholdsworth.com.au/
• Julia Jones - Post Partum https://newbornmothers.com/

CHAPTERS 

00:00
Introduction and Background

02:22
From Counselor to Mental Health Doula

09:26
Exploring the Concept of Mental Health Doula

14:38
Reflecting on a Traumatic Birth Experience

25:32
Becoming a Postpartum Doula and Finding Resources

33:36
The Importance of Supportive Professionals

40:11
Integrating Mental Health and Birth Support

36:23
The Importance of Postpartum Support

52:20
Feeling Like a Warrior

56:08
Budgeting for Postpartum Services

01:05:41
Caring for Mothers at Any Stage of Motherhood

Transcript

0:02

You're listening to Birthing at Home, a podcast. I'm Elsie, your host. I recorded this episode on unceded Wurundjeri land in Nam, Melbourne, Australia, where Aboriginal peoples had been birthing at home, on country, for thousands of years prior to the British invasion. They are the original storytellers. If you want to learn more about me, the podcast, or how I can support you in achieving your home birth, be sure to check out my Instagram at Birthing at Home, underscore a podcast. Episode 37 is shared today by Emma in South Australia. I primarily connected with Emma as she is a mental health doula and I was keen to learn more about her role. But then I also learned that she had a very empowering home birth experience that she was happy to share. It was great chatting to Emma, someone with a wealth of experience in mental health and the postpartum period. who came to find pre and postnatal counseling due to the common pattern she observed in her early counseling work and how impactful that was on childhood mental health, something which significantly influences mental wellbeing in adulthood. I hope it inspires you to plan for your postpartum or your loved one's postpartum. And you may notice in the episode description that you can now send me fan mail. Simply click the link on your mobile device and send me a message. I would love to hear from you. Enjoy this episode guys. Welcome Emma to Birthing at Home, a podcast. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Thank you. And you're joining us from South Australia. Correct. That's cool. Where roughly in South Australia are you? I live South of Adelaide down on the Flourio Peninsula. cool. The Flourio Peninsula. That sounds like very fancy. It's fancy. Yeah, it's totally fancy. awesome. I'm really excited to talk to you because I spoke to someone that you supported. And when I heard her say a mental health doula, I was like, what the heck is that? And so here we are. So do you want to give a bit of background about who you are? And you know, what you do, who's in your family kind of thing? Yes. So I'm Emma Holdsworth. And as you just mentioned, mental health doula. is how I refer to myself. I am mother of two. My girls are 11 and four. And they live here with me just over half the time and with their dad who lives a stone's throw away for the rest of the time. And yeah, I live down south of Adelaide, have lived here for Since my first daughter was five weeks old and previous to that in Melbourne, she was born in Melbourne and my little one was, littlest one was born here. Yeah, that's me in a nutshell. Yeah, amazing. That's funny because I'm in Melbourne too. Did you grow up in Melbourne or were you just here sort of randomly? I grew up here in Adelaide and moved overseas, lived in the UK for several years and then met my kid's dad. I wanted to come back to Australia and he didn't want to come back to sleepy Adelaide. He said, why don't we move to Melbourne? I was like, well, that's close enough. We lived in Melbourne. Adelaide was rad -a -laide. Everybody tells me Adelaide is rad -a-laide. It is rad -a -laide. It is very rad. We didn't have any kids at that point and to go from London. Yeah. To sleepy Southern Rattleade. Yeah. Was a bit of a leap for him. So Melbourne, then Yarra Valley, then when we became parents, we came back here because this is where we have family. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. And so you call yourself, or you are a mental health doula, but it all sort of started with your work becoming a counselor? Yeah. So, I was, when we were in Melbourne, I was working in NGOs in case management and crisis counselling kind of roles. So in domestic violence and then when I became pregnant, I was working in a role with high risk adolescents, trying to kind of keep them in their homes and keep their relationship with their parents. steady so that they didn't become homeless and trying to keep them engaged in education. That was a real turning point for me because it was when I started to realize that everything that I was seeing coming up with the teenagers was related to their relationship with their own parents, usually their mothers in the first. few years of their lives. So that was a real turning point for me as far as where I saw the biggest need for support. So then when my first daughter was born and we'd moved here to Adelaide, I started a, I guess a kind of more general counselling practice. That was called Treehouse Family Counselling. So I saw parents and kids at that time as well. Over the years, that kind of grew and morphed into seeing less kids and more parents because again, it was that realisation that kids don't need to be fixed. They're not a problem. They just need to be supported in a different way. I would work with parents in supporting their kids in a different way or the way that they wanted. and it just kind of grew to supporting parents earlier and earlier in their parenting journey. I started a, a mom's and bub's group, which was called the under one mom circle, which is actually still, still running today. I saw that on your website. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah. So that was kind of my first foray into, okay, how can I, support people in that? like give people more intensive support than what other parent groups were offering because mums can continue to attend until their baby turns one. So it's really building those long relationships and kind of getting to the bottom of the real issues. So I started that when I was doing my more general counselling practice. And yeah, as I mentioned already, that just that idea that that it was really mums during their pregnancy and in preparation for becoming mothers and during the first few years of their babies lives that were needing the most support. And that was who I kept coming to me, I guess, in my practice. I studied to be a postpartum doula, studied with Julia Jones, who has some newborn mothers in WA. And then all just kind of morphed, just kind of morphed together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And just before my second baby was born, I knew I was going to be taking time off. And, and so I'd kind of thought, okay, well, let's use this opportunity when I do get back into working with clients again to kind of start, start fresh, I guess, and really turn my attention to, to working more with those those mums one on one in that in that early time. gave up my office, I had an office where I was seeing clients. And then after, when I started getting back into work after she was born. I, that was when I rebranded my business to what it is now, which is just my, just my name, which is a kind of a big deal to be just myself. Yeah. You can't hide behind anything then. No, that's right. That's right. And I was doing, you know, counseling and postpartum doula and, parenting education and all the things that I'd always done. But just trying to bring them all together and what is this thing and what is this offer? That's when the term mental health doula was born and people haven't heard of it because it's not really a thing. I just kind of made it up. I think it's super apt. Like, duh. Yeah, right. Like, because I obviously work in mental health as well with young people, I totally, a thousand percent, like understand what you're saying. And yeah, as I sort of morph myself into, you know, the doula world, I'm like, well, how do I bring my mental health knowledge into this space? Because it is absolutely... needed. And that is my belief that like, it all it's all like interlinked, you know. I guess going back, I don't know how far but growing up, do you remember what your ideas around birth and pregnancy were? That's an interesting question. I always knew that I wanted to be a mom. Yeah. Definitely. I can remember thinking when I had my first boyfriend when I was 14, that like how cool it would be to be a mom and that I was ready at that point. Thank goodness that never happened because we're definitely not going to go into talking about that relationship. But it was a dream. It was always something that I wanted to do. But I don't recall ever really Yeah. Thinking about pregnancy and birth then as a kid. It's only in my later life that I've had a lot more questions for my mum about her experiences of birth and what that was like for her. I was in my 30s when I had my kids and she was in her early 20s when she first became a mum, 2021 when my sister was born. So her experience was very different to anything that I would wish for anyone. Not that it was bad, but she would have just gone into it with that idea of it's just what you do. You just go and do it and you just do what you're told and then you get a baby. Yeah. That's just the process. Yeah. But yeah, I don't remember thinking about. I knew I wanted to be a mom, but I don't remember thinking about pregnancy or birth. Yeah. And so when it came to having your eldest daughter, who you said is 11, right? Yeah. Yeah. And so you had her in Melbourne in hospital. Like, do you, did you do like any particular like education or like, did you have any knowledge of? you know, birth and pregnancy, obviously you had like your mental health background, but in terms of like making those connections then was that already happening? Yeah, yeah, definitely. So I am we did a calm birth workshop thing. It was like, yeah, four day workshop with a midwife. She was born at Box Hill Hospital. At that time, they had like, was connected to the hospital, but it was a birth center called a birth center, but I don't think it really was. Didn't have a continuity of care. Yeah, that's right. No continuity of care program there, but just slightly separate to the hospital and midwife led. Which at that time that was from what I knew, I was like, yeah, this has got a great reputation as a birth center. and it's midwives. So it's not, you know, that was kind of my, my understanding was if it's midwife led and that's great. Yeah. I don't know if other, if we would have had any other options that would have had a better, better continuity of care options at that time. Home births were not, were not really, not really a thing, not really allowed. So the midwife who ran our calm birth course, She was talking about how she could, as a midwife, she could come and labour with us at home. And if the baby was accidentally born, then that would be okay. But we couldn't plan it. But that was like, if the baby's accidentally born. So she was kind of saying, yeah, we can do it. But this is how we have to kind of sell her. which as a first time mom, I was like, I can't like, it must be there must be something wrong. It must not be safe then. Yeah. Like if it's not allowed if we're not allowed to do it. Yeah. So it's definitely on my mind and something that I was interested in. But I was too scared because of those restrictions. Yeah. At that time. The calm birth was amazing. Yeah. Still now. my kid's dad still when he comes across any expectant couple, he's like, can't birth, you've got to do can't birth. It was so good for him, him especially because he, you know, I was the one, you know, I was doing all the research and all the reading and all the, you know, finding out this and that about interventions and all the things. But that was really his first bit of education and he found it really helpful. And he was an amazing. support during her labor and birth, I think probably because of that. Yeah. So yeah, I feel like I read a lot of things. I had a plan. We'd done calm birth, but I was not in any way prepared for how the system was going to eat me alive. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I actually, just going back to the part in a bit, I was talking to a colleague the other day. I, I feel like as a mental health nurse, like in my team, I'm the bit of like the weirdo that like, I'm always talking about birth and like home birth and I'm the one with the podcast and stuff. And, you know, he was asking, he was like, what is it about this water bath? And to me, like water birth is like, just, just the thing that like you can. do it's not like a major topic, but to him he was like, wow, that's like so weird. And he's like, does it even like, does it even do anything? So I was, you know, talking to him. and then at some point he said, well, when it comes to being my time, like, like, I don't know, like it's not my decision to do any of these things. and I just thought like, that's such a common perception amongst partners that it is, you know, your wife or girlfriend or, you know, the mother of your child having the baby. So it's her body. So like, sure. But in situations like birth, when, you know, you're in that vulnerable position, partners do need to be able to... have a say and put some boundaries and say yes and no and they need to have knowledge around birth and pregnancy and interventions and I yeah, just I sat on my chair and I was just like, God, my shifts almost over. I don't think I have time to like, go this deep into this conversation. So needed but yes. So, reflecting on, you know, that experience with your first daughter. What was it like for you then? So I had premature rupture of membranes. Yeah. And in Victoria at that time, the rules were up to 72 hours. Yeah. and at that time in Adelaide, the rules were 12 hours. So I got more time because I was across the border 12 hours before any intervention in Adelaide at that time. I think it's 24 hours now in Adelaide. I don't know what it is in Victoria now. but I thought, you know, 72 hours, I thought that wasn't really long enough. and so I'd, you know, up until that point I'd. managed to refuse quite a few different things. But then it was this, you know, okay, come in each day and we'll just check and see how much water there is and watch out for meconium. And so I'd gotten into that mindset of like, I have to try and make my body go into labour. And then of course your body's not going to go into labour, right? When you're trying to force it to go into labour instead of just being able to chill. So I ended up, I did have myconium staining. And I had a very typical from what I now understand conversation with a doctor who said, this is an emergency now, we need to induce you. And I said, can't I have more time? And she said, you want your baby to die? And I said, no, I don't want my baby to die. Like, do I have to be induced so my baby doesn't die? Yes, you need to be induced. So then I agreed to be induced and they said, we're a bit busy at the moment. Come back in four hours. It was honestly so predictable and ridiculous. Anyway, so I had a very long induced labor. Just pausing here to thank the May sponsor for the podcast, Let's Talk Birth. and share a discount code with you all. At Let's Talk Birth, they're dedicated to providing unwavering support to women as they prepare for childbirth and beyond. You can discover tailored doula support, created products, and expert guidance from endorsed midwives and certified lactation consultants, all in one convenient place. Join their community and experience a space of knowledge, compassion, and shared experiences as you navigate your pregnancy, birth, and postpartum journey. We hold the mother while she holds the baby. For an exclusive 15 % off this May, use the code LC15, that's E -L -S -I -E 15 at checkout. You can visit letstalkbirth .au to see all of their amazing products. I recently got the Bink glass water bottle and I love it, but they have amazing carriers and very, very cool. brands in store. So make sure you check it out and thank you again so much. Let's talk about for supporting the podcast. Okay. Now we get on with the rest of the episode. Really full on from, from when they put the, put the drip in, it was I think like 22 hours until she was born and couldn't, couldn't go in the water. Couldn't do any, couldn't do anything because I had all the monitoring and all the, all the things. The drip and the... the head clip and all the stuff. Ended up having her vaginally. There was a registrar who the chief obstetrician at the time was trying to have me taken to theatre because she thought I needed to have a cesarean even though the baby was, the head was nearly out. And a registrar at the time said, I think, think we can get the baby out with some vigorous perennial stretching is what she called it. And my partner at the time still talks about how that was something like that he can never get out of his head. You know, that she had her, you know, basically, caught in a episiotomy and, you know, put her hands inside of me and pulled my baby out. And ridiculously at the time, I felt grateful. her because she said, let's not go to theatre. Yeah. So it was, I was glad to have not had a caesarian. I was glad to have not gone to theatre. They were talking about vacuum, which we were going to theatre for a vacuum, but I knew what kind of theatre I need to be in. Yeah, yeah. So I was quite traumatized by my experience. They then pulled on my cord to try and get my placenta out and my uterus just shut up shop, cord snapped, had to go to theatre anyway to have my placenta removed. So I felt very, I felt like a lot of things had been done to me and that my power had been taken away. My partner at the time had been, you know, he'd been pulling people aside and taking them outside and telling them, you know, this is the birth plan, you know, we need, we need to have conversations about this and that, but we definitely got railroaded. Yeah. And it took me a long time to recover. Of course, of course. And I, I vowed within the first year of her, of her life that I, if I had another baby, I wouldn't be going. to hospital. I wouldn't be going near a hospital to have a baby again. I started to learn all I could learn about home birth and other options and read about the things that had happened to me because you can't learn everything before you have your first. I felt angry really. I felt angry that that, that I hadn't been informed well enough about things that were happening. I hadn't been given enough choices. I'd been, you know, told things like you're not or not you're not, cause they weren't really talking to me. They were talking to the midwife. She's not, she's not pushing hard enough or, you know, she's, she's not, you know, she's not working hard enough. She's not doing her job. Basically, right. Like when I hear people. Like so, but it's so many people that I talk to are saying that this is the language that is being used and like that, you know, women are typically, you know, treated as if they're not even there. They're like, they're invisible. Like that you're, you're in labor. kind of have a conversation with you, but quite happily will assume consent. And, you know, it's just. absolute madness, mind -boggling. And before you had had your eldest daughter, had you done much sort of postpartum, like birth trauma kind of work? No. No. No. Okay. No, I, that all came after. So yeah, I'd been working in, in... I'd worked in domestic violence. I'd worked with high risk teens, some who had been pregnant and had babies. Crisis counseling from the DV work, but not specifically related to the trauma of birth. Other traumas, but not birth trauma. I became interested in that after my own experience as we do. Yeah, yeah, that's the journey, I guess. And so you were learning about home birth and stuff like through, you know, so your youngest is four, you said? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So in that, what is it like six or seven years? That's when you started to get into more postpartum work. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So yeah, I started just doing a lot of reading and learning for myself as a way, I guess, also to heal from my own experience and to feel that sense of validation that I didn't get from people saying, at least you had a vaginal birth, at least you and your baby were fine. Healthy mom, healthy baby. All the crap that we hear. It was just by talking to people and doing research and reading and following, you know, following different people on social media and that I started to understand that there could be a different way. And also I wanted to parent my child in a way that kind of led me down that path as well because a lot of the same know, attachment parenting or aware parenting or conscious parenting or, you know, there are a lot of those kind of same ideas that I was interested in were in the same realm as the as the home birth or natural birth, vaginal birth kind of people. Yeah. So that that kind of, I guess, more kind of natural, I guess you could say natural learning. Yeah. And I reckon, my daughter was probably around five or six when, no, she must have been younger than that because she was six when her sister was born. So she must have been when I was kind of coming out of that fog of baby toddler mothering when you're like, I could do more things. That I decided to study to be a postpartum doula. and always knowing at that time that I wanted to combine the two, but feeling like that was the missing piece. and, you know, I think also still at that time, I was probably of that mindset that like, you have to like, I have to know everything or like, I need to learn more things or have more certificates or whatever to be able to provide the kind of support that I wanted to provide. now I'm much more of the mindset that like, you know, I can. can provide it, regardless of any pieces of paper. But yeah, it was then studying with Julia Jones that I started to kind of, I guess, formulate these ideas around how to combine the two or how important mental health was in that postpartum period. And yeah, then when I was pregnant with my second baby, I suffer from hyperemesis gravadarum. So my pregnancies are awful, which was one of the reasons why it was so long between children. But also I had a couple of losses in the year before my pregnancy with my youngest. So I had an early miscarriage followed a few months later by an ectopic pregnancy. And I had to have a fallopian tube removed when I had the ectopic, which again was, you know, I was in hospital for a baby related, a baby related thing. Yeah. Also, that's right. Also went to hospital for my miscarriage, which again, I was like, why did I, why? Like I was, I was like seven weeks pregnant. and I went to hospital and ended up like miscarrying in the toilet in the emergency room, which was like, I really just wished so much that I was not there. I was at home. Because obviously, what can they what can they do? Yeah, there's nothing that can be done. But so that again, those moments of being in hospital and not being in hospital for more baby things. Yeah. So so yeah, it took a while for those reasons, having HG and the losses and also talking my partner at the time into having another one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. And so, yeah, when I became pregnant with her, I kind of made a decision that when I went back to work after her, that I was really going to do that big pivot because it felt like... timing was right, if I was going to take some time off then. So during my pregnancy with her, I stopped doing the more general counselling work, which I'd kind of been starting to combine the two, but had been a bit scared to take the, to fully take the leap. And yeah, I had quite a bit of time off from when I was pregnant with her because I was so unwell. And spent that time really working out the birth that I wanted to have and what that was going to look like. And so that was helpful to have that time, even though I was mostly bedridden. Yeah. It's so horrible. Was there any like particular like resources? So you'd already done Calm Birth, but... Like was there anything in particular that's that still sticks out that you found really helpful? When I was part of a like a kind of unofficial mums group with my first when we first moved here to Adelaide and one of the women was a private midwife. One of the women in the group was a private midwife and she'd been a mid she'd been the midwife for quite a few of the mums in that group and she had stopped. midwifery because it was just all too horrible and she decided to be a cat midwife instead. Yeah. Excellent. She runs a cat rescue center and she gets the pregnant cats and looks after them. Now that's a pivot. That's a pivot. Yeah, right. Her partner's a vet, so it was a natural fit for her. Yeah. She'd always loved animals, but yeah, a bit less stressful. Yeah. Less regulations maybe. Exactly. And so when we were hanging out quite a bit, it was, you know, she was going to be my midwife when I got pregnant again. And then, cause it took so long, she was then not practicing anymore. So I contacted her and said, will you doola for me? Yeah. I'm not a cat, but will you still support me? I'm not a cat, but will you still support me? And she said, yes, thank goodness. Amazing. And. I would say she was 100 % my best resource. Yeah, cool. She came in and chatted with us together and chatted with my partner at the time as well. They had some one on one chats to kind of help him with, help him through some stuff that he was going through at the time. And I had a a very close friend who was working as a group practice midwife at the local hospital here, which is a continuity of care program model. That's the word I was looking for. The plan was that she was going to be my midwife and then I was going to have them. They do home births through that hospital as well. All right, that's all going to be great. But then it turned out that she was pregnant and she was going to be going on maternity leave when I would have been about 30 weeks. I felt very blessed that I had had her in my corner because she then gave me basically to the midwife that she thought was going to be. best suited. Also still now looking back though, I'm like, could have because it's a low risk model as well. So you could have could have gone could have gone bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Could have gone bad, but didn't. Yeah. So I think more than so we did do a calm birth refresher, which was very helpful with a different because obviously we were in Adelaide, not in Melbourne. But I would say it was people, like people in my corner that were my best resources rather than, you know, any course I did or anything that I, that I read. Yeah, for sure. It was those, yeah, those excellent people. And the midwife, the midwife that I had also turned out to be excellent. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I always love, I mean, obviously it's horrible to hear, you know, women's traumatic or, you know, not very nice experiences in a hospital birth. But I always am so fascinated about the switch to home birth because like that's such a journey, such a journey, because it's like completely different. What was your experience of home birth like then? Was that the first, had you ever seen home birth before? No, no, no, I'd had a lot of friends who had home birthed, but not that I'd been present for it. So a lot of, a lot of home birth talk in my, in my circles. And yeah, so it wasn't something that I'd seen, but I felt very, very well prepared. And mostly I knew what I didn't want. And the difference for me having two support people who knew me and who knew what I wanted and what I didn't want and what was important to me and knew my previous experience because the first time I had like four different midwife shift changes and I hadn't ever met any of them. I just felt so much more relaxed and in control. Yeah. And I don't really even recall it being painful. That's so weird to say, especially because my second baby was ginormous. Yeah, really. But yeah, everything just went more smoothly. Yeah. And having not had, I didn't know what it was like to go into spontaneous labour because my waters are broken and nothing had happened. I didn't know what that was going to feel like. premature rupture of membranes is, I've discovered after my first was born, is like a family tradition. really? wow. My sister had, had like the water's breaking, like you see in the movies, right? Water's breaking is the first sign of a baby, which isn't usually for most people how it actually happens in my family. It is, it is what happens. Wow. so I was kind of preparing myself for that again and had the midwife on board about when, you know, kind of don't call us until to be ready for the clock to start ticking. But everything just, just happened in, you know, in, in much more flow. my daughter was born on the 1st of, of November. So, I actually. went into labor or lost my mucus plug was the first sign of labor starting for me. when, my eldest daughter and her dad were out trick or treating. So they came home in costume and he put her to bed and, I didn't say anything to her cause I wanted her to not be too excited and wanted her to go to sleep. And, and yeah, just, I don't know, like the, just all felt like everything happened in a really logical order and like the way it should or the way I felt like it should when your body's allowed to do its thing. So I had a birth pool in the living room and I've got a big hook that hangs from my ceiling so I'd hung some like twisted up some sheets and hung them. the hook and yeah, but I had a, like a ball, you know, a birthing ball underneath that. So I was kind of sitting on that hanging from the, from those two and that those twisted sheets were so, it was like they were, they were spot on amazing for that early labor. Do you remember your arms being sore afterwards? No, no. That sounds, yeah. No, it was just, yeah, just that gravity of hanging was, yeah, it was really, it was really beautiful. And then yeah, I was just on my hands and knees for a while and then my, my water's broken. Like that feeling, like the exploding waters feeling was like, I remember being amazed at that because it's not, it was very different to my first experience and thinking, like that's clearly what's happened here. And that's like what it's meant to happen. And that freaked my, my partner out a bit. And so he's then I'm calling, I'm calling Sarah, who's the doula. We'd called her earlier and she'd said, just call me when you want me to come. And he's like, there's a lot of stuff everywhere. Can you come? There's a lot of blood and guts. I can't handle the stuff. There's guts. There should not be guts. No, that's right. Exactly. I'm like, it's not guts. It's just chunky blood. Just calm down. She got here quick when she heard guts. That's right. Exactly. And yeah, so when she after she got here, I got in the pool and that was it was so beautiful being in the water. Yeah, I just remember thinking, what a relief. Like just the heaviness was just lifted, which was really beautiful. And I remember that there was like this idea that I was the baby was going to be coming out soon. My daughter had said she wanted to be woken up. So cool. They woke her up at one. Yeah. And her and her dad sat on the couch and I had the midwife and the doula with me. And then the pushing stage took quite a lot longer. Probably wouldn't have probably was probably a bit premature to wake her up. But this giant head that my baby had. Yeah. But the really beautiful thing about it was I didn't like there was the my doula and my midwife are a bit concerned. Okay. about because they could tell that the head was really big and that it was, it was kind of, it was a bit of a struggle, but I didn't know any of that. Yeah. They were just communicating over the top of my head. As far as I knew, I was doing amazing and I was like a goddess and a warrior and like, it was just like, could you just, do you think you could move your leg anymore that way? I'm like, not without pulling it off. But that was so gentle with me and so, like just giving me these beautiful empowering messages. And it was, you know, that was so helpful. Yeah. And then yeah, after she was born, it wasn't until after she was born that we started talking about the difficulty with that. And that was because I had a significant tear because her head was like 100th percentile head. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That'll do it. Yeah, she was a big baby with a big head. And I'd had the badly stitched a pesiotomy first time around. So I knew I was going to tear, but obviously it was a bit next level. So I did end up having to go into hospital after she was born to have the tear stitched. But I was so elated that she'd been born at home. I didn't care. It's like, whatever. And like I hopped out of the bath with her and was on my couch and know, just just letting her kind of do the breast crawl and, you know, hanging out there and that was really beautiful. And skin to skin so beautiful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I also trained with the Australian Breastfeeding Association as a breastfeeding counselor. So I was like, you know, this is how I want to do it. This is what this is going to look like. And yeah, we got to about 55 minutes and my placenta still hadn't been born and they like it to be born because they were still hospital midwives, still hospital rules. I like it to be born within the hour, but they knew what had happened first time around and how precious I was about my placenta and the cord and no one's touching the cord and no one's coming anywhere near me. So I went and sat on the, she put a bowl in the toilet and she said, just go and sit on the toilet. And it just fell out of me literally when I sat down on the toilet. 59 minutes. I remember hearing them joking about it, like that she was putting 59 minutes on the form and that, you know, my manager's going to think I'm making it up. Yeah. Cause it was just before the moment. And yeah, again, huge placenta for the huge baby. Yeah. How huge was she? She was 4 .8 or 4 .77 kilos. Yeah. So yeah, she was pretty, pretty, pretty large. Yeah. And her sister had not been, her sister had been just average. interesting. Three, I think 3 .4, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but it was, it was, it was, there was a knowing, like I knew she was going to be big and she measured big at the 20 week scan and I'd been offered a, you know, you should, you could have another scan at 36 weeks, which I had declined. Yeah. Cause I knew that if she was big, they would. take the home birth from me because it was still hospital led. But if they didn't know, then I could still carry on. It wasn't a huge surprise that she was big, but it was still a surprise. But obviously as a mom, like I didn't realize she was big when she was born. Like she just looked like a tiny baby to me. But of course the midwife was like, my God, she's so massive. My first was 4 .5. And so when I had my second, I didn't actually know that like they usually get bigger. So in my mind, I was like, well, 4 .5, like I can't make a baby bigger than that. Surely. Like that's pretty big. And yeah, Frankie was 4 .6. But yeah, I just, yeah, I just felt like I just make big babies. And for my first, I had like whatever scans and they probably told me, you're probably going to have a big baby. But for my second, I was like, I don't even care. Like if I have a big baby, I have a big baby. Don't, don't you dare be measuring anything because I know I expect it. It's okay. Like, But then, yeah, when they were, when he came out and they were like weighing him and stuff, we were all taking, you know, guesses on, on the weight. And I was like, no, no, surely not bigger than 4 .5. And yeah, to them, they were clearly like, this is a big baby. Yeah. I mean, yeah, our bodies are incredible. Yeah. When they're allowed to be. Yeah. When they're allowed to be and tear or not, like. I think there, you know, is some sort of, physiological reasoning behind like natural tears because like that's your body, like making way for baby, right? And then PZ otomies are barbaric. Yeah. Yeah. yeah. What was your experience in hospital like then? when you had to get support with the tear? It wasn't ideal. There's definitely a culture of women who are home birth being treated differently in hospital if they have to be transferred for birth or postpartum. Yeah, there's a lot of things that I would do. Like they said, I couldn't, I had to poo before I could go home because the third degree tear, they were concerned that there might've been some internal tearing and they needed to make sure that that was all good. And I wish I'd lied so that I could have gone home sooner. Cause and also, yeah, I like, I shouldn't have, I feel like I should have, like protected my baby a bit more. Okay. Because you know, once we're in there, then like I was the patient, but then she was a patient because we were in postnatal and so they wanted to like, you know, check her out and, and, and I should have said no. I didn't even think about that. I didn't have a whole lot of fire in me at that time. Yeah. And she ended up with, she had jaundice and she had to go. I mean, she was fine. I was stayed with her. they'll find anything. They'll find anything, right? It was a bit like that. I also now know that because of her size, it's not surprising that she had a bit of jaundice. If I was just left alone to just breastfeed her more, it would have cleared up. Because I said, no, you're not taking her anywhere. They brought a blanket, like a light. Yeah, that guy. Yep. And so she was there still with me. And, but it was just, just felt like, you know, just felt like a hassle. Just felt like a hassle. That's right. And, you know, like so toe pricks to see what the Billy Rubin levels were and all the, you know, all that, all that crap. And it was, yeah, it almost felt like they, yeah, they just wanted to. They wanted to have some control. Yeah. And I, yeah. And I, I don't know why I didn't just say, I've got a midwife who's going to look after me at home. But yeah, just, it just didn't, didn't seem like an option. You know, we were there. Yeah. But that's the, that's the power of the system, right? Like it's, it's pretty strong. It's not like you're saying no to one midwife. you're saying no to every single person that comes in and offers and they're not just offering to you, they're offering to the baby. And then, yeah, that's right. They're trying to be helpful. Yeah. And when you see like other people, other people like accepting it, then you're like, well, am I the problem? Yeah. Yeah. so I don't think, yeah, well, I know that it's not you, it's the system. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And I, I know that, I know that too. And I knew that then. Yeah. But it's hard. It's hard. I think like that's something that a lot of women when they, you know, choose to go into the hospital system, they, you know, have. I mean, even even me, like with my first pregnancy, I, you know, I'd studied. midwifery, I knew that I could say no. And so I said, no, I don't want the gestational diabetes test. And somehow I still managed to be having the stupid test. Like, so you can say no, but like, it can still happen. It's just crazy. Anyway, that's really lovely that you got to have such a different experience postpart, like that immediate postpartum situation aside. like. How did you feel about your body after that experience? I felt like a warrior. I was so stoked with myself. I thought I was so freaking amazing. Especially because of the size of it. And that, you know, I just was like, people telling me that you can't birth a baby that size out of your vagina and especially not at home and especially not without. you know, without any pain relief. And even at that time, I was like, it didn't even hurt. Yeah. It doesn't like there was pressure. There was a lot of pressure. The most pain I remember having was after being stitched. I will say though that the surgery itself, I had an amazing surgeon, all female team in the theatre. And I told her about my first experience in the episiotomy and how I was given too many stitches, which I think the male surgeon did on purpose, husband stitches, they called it at the time. And she was brilliant. She said, I'm going to do the bare minimum. You only need, you know, I will let it heal as naturally as possible. I'll do the bare minimum. all of the women had a female anesthetist here and another one here and they looked after me so beautifully. It was just in the postpartum ward that that other stuff happened. So I just wanted to say that because that was a really positive experience. My daughter was with me and my kid's dad was with me. That was all really nice. But yeah, I felt... Yeah, I felt like I had achieved like the impossible. Yeah. And I couldn't believe what my body was capable of. Yeah. I was, yeah, I was pretty amazed with myself. Yeah, as you should be, rightly, rightly. In your work, you know, in the past couple of years, working with, you know, women post -native as well, having had such an amazing experience, do you find that you... Or do you find that a certain like demographic or you know, somebody with a certain birth experience does come to see you late? Is it all about trauma or do women still seek you out even without having had traumatic experiences? There seems to be kind of two camps. It's often I get the women who, who knew what they wanted. And you know, they might have had a home birth. a plan with a private midwife or with a group practice. And it didn't go to plan. So I get a lot of women working with me who were home birth hospital transfers. And many of them ended in caesareans. And so working through that. So there's those women. Then I also get women who really know what they want because it's second or third baby and they struggled with their mental health in the first year post-baby, whether that's birth related or not, first time around, so they want to get something in place, ready to go. I get the the women who are pregnant and doing all the research and really wanting to, to have things go a certain way. Yeah. That's this, that's probably the smallest group that I get. And that's the group that I that I want to reach the most. Yeah. Because it's when, women consider how their mental health and relationship and ability to take care of their own needs will be impacted when they become a mum. When women consider that in pregnancy or even before they're pregnant, those are the mums that have the best outcomes because they've got supports in place, they've budgeted for supports, which is a huge thing. I get calls from so many women. in those early weeks or months with their baby and they're like in dire straits, I'm so anxious or I can't leave the house or like, I don't know what's happened to me. I've lost myself. Who am I now? All my relationships falling apart. But they haven't considered the need for support in their budget. They've bought all the important, expensive prams and snooze and all the gadgets. Bloody snooze. bloody snooze. They've all got a snooze but they can't afford postpartum support. No, that's not fair. That's me generalizing, but you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So that's an area that I really try to focus on is that, like, how do I get this message to women who are pregnant or planning a family? Because I know what difference it makes for people when they have that support in place, even if it's just, you know, even if it's just, you know, Okay, they like they know that they have someone, you know, whether it's me or whoever it is, doesn't matter. I've got someone who understands mental health and who understands the signs to look out for. Who understands, you know, when it's gone, you know, when it's a problem, I guess. I think that it can be really hard to see that line between like what's normal changes, because of course we're more anxious if you've just had a baby, right? Because we're trying to keep a small human alive and they're very vulnerable. And so, you know, moms who tell me, I just, you know, when I wake up at night, I check that they're still breathing. I'm like, that's not like, I wouldn't call that postnatal anxiety. Like I'd call that being normal. That's just like having a new responsibility to make sure that this small person is here. Exactly. And I think that in our modern world of like, do it on your own, manage, your partner goes back to work after two weeks, you're in this silo by yourself without 20 sets of aunties and grandma's arms to support you during the day. Of course, you're going to have challenging thoughts and feelings. It doesn't mean that you need to be diagnosed with something and it happens to everyone. I'd love for people to be able to. just know, I can just pick up the phone and call this person or I've got this person already like on speed dial. Rather than then having to try and do that work to find someone who you gel with or, you know, who can give you the kind of support that you need. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When you already feel like crap. And yeah, yeah. I saw something the other day about intrusive thoughts and. Yeah, now I kind of just I'm so used to it. But like intrusive thoughts are something that I feel like no one talks about and nobody really talks about in the context of having a new baby. Yeah. And yeah, I just think there's there's so, so much. And that's why, like, I have this podcast is because I really believe in storytelling, because I don't have. 11 aunts and grandmas and you know, women around me to share experiences and normalize, you know, the variation in life, in, you know, motherhood in pregnancy birth. So I think it's yeah, really important. Important. Yeah, to share about the variation. I think it's amazing like the work that you're doing. It's like very inspirational, very cool. Especially how you've like managed to merge the two because that's something that I think about as well. I'm like, I've got all this knowledge, but like, what am I gonna do with it? But share it. Yeah, I think you know, I just like it's, we'd see women in like when I had my counselling practice, see women where they would, you know, they would have to take all of these different steps to be able to come in to a service and talk to someone. And there were so many other things going on for them that to be able to focus on themselves and their needs and like what was truly beneath their struggles or the beneath what's beneath those challenging thoughts and feelings was like impossible. And so by going into people's homes and spending a longer time with them and like clearing space, like clearing the decks a bit, like so I would literally do the dishes and like set up an activity for the toddler and you know, do all of these other things so that mum can then go, okay, so now there's a little bit of space to be able to talk about the deeper stuff. Because it's not just this whole pile of like this big long list of things that are in the way, I guess, of being able to focus on themselves. I've still got to like do the washing and do the, I've just got to get this chat over as quick as possible because I've got to cook dinner as well. And yeah. Yeah. Well, coming into an office for a 50 minute appointment when you've got your baby and your baby needs feeding and they're crying half the time, you're like, I'm not getting to the, not getting to it. Yeah. Yeah. so true. Yeah. So it was just something that I felt like was really, was really missing. Yeah. for moms and it has been very well received. I think, you know, because I'm not funded, it's a private service. I think that's probably the biggest barrier for people, especially because often people are down to one income, is being able to fund it. Which is again why that early education for people because a lot of people who reach out to me when they're 10 weeks pregnant, they then start paying. They pay it off while they're still working or planning in their budget. Because just being able to have someone who can be there for you. It's kind of hard. It's hard. People say, what do you do? You come to my house for three hours, what are you going to do? I'm like, I don't know. what needs doing, what's going to need doing, we don't know until we get there. But whatever I need to do to support you to be able to focus on your needs for a bit, I'll do that. Trust me, I'll make it worth it. That's right, exactly. Don't you worry. Yeah, well, I mean, that's something that I think about as well is that I really, really want to help women and families and the people that I... work or the demographic that I currently work with in my, you know, day job. I mean, it's not in the day, but you know, my regular job. You know, I really, really think that, you know, I there, there could be so many benefits to working with families of that lower socioeconomic status, you know, refugee families, migrant families that, you know, also have so much going on, but Yeah, the cut like, like I also need to like pay my rent and like my food and I have two kids and you know, but on the flip side, like there's I know that in some areas, I think also in South Australia, there's a push for accreditation or like something about like Medicare or whatever for dualers. But yeah, I mean, that's what's happened to midwives. And they've like introduced all these things to try and make it better, but actually it's not made it better. It's possibly made it worse. So. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard. And yeah, I do have dreams. I have dreams about, about funding, you know, a fleet funding for a fleet of mental health toolers so that everybody can have one. Yeah. You know, or, you know, one of my, my biggest, my, my most huge dream is that every, every. person who has a baby is given a bucket of funding that they're not allowed to use for products that they can only use on services. A bit like NDIS, like it's a package of funding that you get when you have a baby and it'll be cheaper in the long run, but we know how governments only work in three year cycles. But it's like, imagine if like every woman was, even if it was $20 ,000, here's your 20 grand and you can use it on any supports that you want in that first year. pelvic floor and like, you know, physio like this. The, the, the list is endless on the ways that could support, but you know, all of those things are expensive. If you don't have private health or whatever else. Yeah. I'm with you on that dream. I shared the same dream. Let's dream at least make it happen. I don't know how, I don't know who we talk to, you know, every birth is funded, but you know, it could be good. keep doing the work. Thank you so much for chatting with me and sharing all of these with me. Did you have anything that you didn't say or wanted to say before we finish? One thing is that one thing I have found when doing this work is that there are that I've been also working with moms who aren't in their early postpartum. So it started off with moms who had a six month old and wished they had more postpartum support and then didn't and then find out that I could work with them anyway. And it's now morphed into, like I have a mom at the moment who has a 10 year old and she was never supported to focus on her own needs. So that idea that you can be cared for like you've just had a baby, even if you haven't just had a baby. Yeah. But all mothers need this kind of care. And that, you know, there are times in your life that you might go through different transitions or different crises or, you know, a mental health crisis or a separation or a loss, you know, your mother might die. There's so many different diagnosis, there's so many different times in your life that, know, imagine what it would be like to just be able to like be cared for and be looked after. And I just really wanted to say how all moms deserve that. Yeah. And I would hazard a guess that any postpartum doula who was contacted by a mom, no matter how old their children were, who said, can you come and support me as though I've just had a baby, would say yes. Yeah. Yeah. So to any mums listening who feel like, well, I haven't just had a baby, but this all sounds amazing. I'd really love that kind of support. You can get it too. Yeah, that's perfect. I think that's a brilliant way to end. I'm like trying to like flick through all of the different packages that I've seen about Postpartum Dula and none of them have said there's an age age limit. So yeah, that's really, really nice. And I think. Yeah, what bringing it all the way back to when we first started about the impact on, yeah, childhood. And I mean, it's, it's a cycle, right? Like childhood, teenage, adulthood, and just repeat and imagine all of the healing that could be done if women knew that this was even an option. Thank you so, so much.