Homebirth after 3 birth centre births (Shoulder dystocia, NICU, Preterm PROM, Meconium) || Shelby's birth of Eli at home (Queensland)

Episode 36 is shared by mum to 4 under 6 years, Shelby. Shelby felt naive going in to her first 2 births, and although she learnt about homebirth (via freebirth first!) after her 2nd baby, she chose to have another birth centre birth. It wasn't until after reflection many months later, that she decided for her 4th baby she would plan a homebirth. An episode that makes you think about why 3 non-homebirths had so many issues, but her 4th baby who was born at home, was so different. 


Resources: 

• Velamentous Cord Insertion https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/24111-velamentous-cord-insertion
• Preterm Premature Rupture of Membranes https://evidencebasedbirth.com/ebb-281-mini-q-a-on-the-evidence-on-preterm-prom/
• IVF & Induction https://www.therealbirthcompanyltd.com/2021/04/28/ivf-and-stillbirth/
• Meconium in waters https://midwifethinking.com/2015/01/14/the-curse-of-meconium-stained-liquor/

Learn more about me, my offers as a doula & the podcast here: https://www.birthingathome.com.au/

CHAPTERS


00:00
Shelby's Birth Center Births

06:15
Discovering Home Birth

08:08
Overview of First Two Births

11:21
Dealing with Shoulder Dystocia

28:36
Bringing Baby Home on Oxygen

33:25
Considering Induction for Future Pregnancies

34:53
Making an Informed Decision

39:59
Dealing with Others' Opinions

41:22
Finding the Right Midwife

43:31
Unexpected Early Labor

48:43
The Excitement of Catching the Baby

54:07
Creating a Comfortable Birth Space

57:41
Returning to Normalcy After Birth

01:03:13
Passing on the Knowledge of Home Birth

01:05:24
Challenges with Publicly Funded Home Birth

01:06:45
The Power of Physiological Birth

Transcript

0:02

You're listening to Birthing at Home, a podcast. I'm Elsie, your host. I recorded this episode on unceded Wurundjeri land in Nam, Melbourne, Australia, where Aboriginal peoples had been birthing at home on country for thousands of years prior to the British invasion. They are the original storytellers. If you want to learn more about me, the podcast or how I can support you in achieving your home birth, be sure to check out my Instagram at birthingathome.com. underscore our podcast. Episode 36 is shared by Shelby from Brisbane, who after three birth centre births, chose home birth with her fourth baby, even after deciding immediately post baby number three, that for her next birth, she would definitely be having an induction. We hear about her experiences with IVF, with preterm prolonged rupture of membranes, meconium stained waters, shoulder dystocia, supporting her third baby with oxygen for her first four months. and the impact of a positive birth in the longer term and through generations. It's a great episode that really makes you wonder why did Shelby encounter so many challenges in the hospital system three times in a row, but when she had her home birth, it was so different. And don't forget, if you're looking for a home birth doula, be sure to check out my website, birthingathome .com .au. Enjoy this episode. Welcome Shelby to Birthing at Home, a podcast. Hello, how are you? I'm good, thank you. We're just catching up. I'm very excited to hear your stories. You've got four amazing children and I imagine four awesome stories. Do you want to start off by quickly introducing like who you are, where you're located, who's in your family kind of thing? Lovely. Well, my name's Shelby and I'm located in... Brisbane and I have four children who are all under the age of six. It's pretty busy, but it's good. And yes, that's my husband, myself, the kids and then we've got our two dogs, lizards, a bird. It's pretty crazy. Amazing. With four kids under six, you'd have to have all of the things to keep everybody entertained. Yes, but it's lots of fun. Yeah, that's awesome. And so you were just catching up before and so your first two babies were born in a birth center. Yes, so the first three were born in a birth center. All three. Okay. And is that a birth center in Brisbane then? Yes, it is. Yeah, it's a birth center attached to a hospital. I didn't actually get to deliver in the birth center rooms because of something that happens during birth or the pregnancy, the sort of cancer will be out. But I was in that continuity of care. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, sure. And then baby number four was a home birth last year. Yes, he was. Awesome. So I guess like going all the way back, you know, pre -babies, what was your understanding of pregnancy or birth? Like, did you have any like... particular ideas about it or? I was never scared of birth. It was never ingrained positively, but not negatively. It was just sort of something that happened. And I didn't grow up even into like adulthood hearing negative stories, because I know you hear lots of people that hear lots of negative stories from others. I didn't have that experience. So it was not negative, not positive. It was just kind of mutual. And so, yeah, I didn't have any fears or anything like that going in to pregnancy and birth. I did know from the get -go before, we went down the road actually by IVF and artificial, yeah, like fertility treatments for pregnant. And I did know that I wanted the birth center before even going down that route. It was something that just interested me. something that I thought that I could do. Yeah. Is that from like a continuity? Like had you read good things about like? Yeah, I heard very good things about the birth center specifically. And then I got into a little bit of the research of continuity of care and how that usually, you know, well, it has been an outcome statistically. But I didn't know much more than that. I was very naive going into my first birth and even my second really. Yeah. Okay. What's the age gap between your first and your second? So just under two years between them, give or take. Yeah. Did you do like any particular birth education kind of stuff? No, I just did the hospital birth classes. Looking back, In hindsight, I'd wish I'd done hypnobirthing or something similar. But no, I just did the hospital classes for my first pregnancy. And then especially going into my third and fourth, I did a lot of podcasts and reading that sort of research as opposed to black classes. Yeah. And when you're in that birth center model of care, do you get a different kind of... birth education offering or it's the same as what everybody else gets in the hospital? I believe it's the same. I did get into the birth center relatively late in my first two pregnancies, but it was a lot more personal so I could ask a lot more personal questions and yeah, I felt like they knew me and knew what my goals. So a lot of the stuff I was asking was very specific to my needs instead of like a general yeah, yeah thing anyway. So yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. and had you heard of home birth before? No. So with my first, I actually remember commenting to my husband that I don't understand why people home birth. Like, yeah, that'd be something I would never do just in case something went wrong. and, but I didn't even realize it was even a thing in Queensland. I did know that other States had. publicly funded home birth. And if I was in a different state, maybe I would have had a different mindset with that. But in Queensland, it wasn't funded. And I didn't even realize at that time they were endorsed midwives. It wasn't until we were looking at conceiving our third that I stumbled across a Facebook post of a free birth. wow. Yeah, Facebook group. And I joined that because it just interested me. And then I found out there was one specific to Australia that I joined and then found out about home birthing. through that and then my algorithm, I think, was in my favor. And so I was exposed to it quite a lot on the internet and that's how I initially came about it. Yeah. See, I am with the podcast. I've like also joined TikTok because I have in my mind that that's the way out of my circle. There you go. Algorithm can help you get out of my circle of influence. That's really cool though. So, Like, yeah, like, I mean, your perceptions of Home Earth is pretty much what I imagine the majority of the rest of Australia's perceptions are. So you're not alone on that. And I think that's, yeah, pretty, pretty lucky that, you know, you kind of stumbled across. Yes. Yeah. And other way. Yeah. And I. I just kind of got used to it and reading through those posts. And so, yeah, it just became something that I was just like desensitized to in a way. And it became like kind of a normal online. And I was more involved in that sort of community than what I was, the regular mothers groups and birthing groups and stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. Do you want to give us a bit of an overview of your first two births? Yep. So they were pretty similar. in some ways, I, with my first, baby, he, my water's broke at 34 weeks. just like a little bit of a drip, not, not a full rupture. and I can never pronounce the name, but it starts with V. It is an, a marginal cord insertion, but a veloment. Yeah, and so that actually wasn't picked up until I was about 32, 33 weeks. And we suspect that's why my waters broke because it was a pretty severe case of that diagnosis. The umbilical cord connected into the top of the membrane and then it ran the arteries right through the membrane into the placenta. But I was able to birth naturally because I had none of those arteries in the way of the cervix, so that wasn't an issue. So anyway, my waters broke, I stayed pregnant. And then I ended up getting induced at 37 weeks, because that's the recommendation in Australia, is to try and sort of stay pregnant as long as you can. Yeah, and I just didn't go into labor. And so yeah, I was induced at 37 weeks. It was a very fast labor, it's about three and a half hours from start to finish. Yeah. And I did have a very minor. first part of hemorrhage with that one. But apart from that, it was relatively straightforward. I think in a way it was a bit of luck, really. Yeah, I wouldn't make the same decision regarding induction than what I did at that time now. But yeah, it went smoothly, I had a healthy baby. He was 37 weeks and now after having three other babies that were born post 38 weeks, I'm a choose to have another 37 week or again. The difference is, yeah, a lot. Yeah, and so anyway, that happened. And then we went down the route of IVF when he was like 12 months old, which unfortunately my first transfer wasn't, it was an unsuccessful pregnancy. And then I fell pregnant naturally. Yeah, about a month after. And then I had, yeah, my daughter who's now, four, she just turned four. And with her 38 weeks, I had a small leak again. And I thought, you know, I was term. And then I just thought labor would start like it statistically does. And it didn't. Again. Yeah. And so the hospital, I think at the birth center, the recommendation was 72 hours that you had before they... recommend induction instead of the standards 24 that seems to be normal. I got my 72 hours was at nighttime so I just I didn't want to go in at night so I left it to the next morning. I went in got my forewaters ruptured and I had a baby on my chest within an hour and a half. Holy moly. Yeah. of all my births hers was, it was still a fantastic experience in general, but was my hardest labor. Cause it was an hour and a half of nonstop contraction. My first contraction was just as bad as my last one. I think I was like two contractions in and telling my midwife that I can't do it. I, in hindsight, now I wish I just waited longer. Cause I do feel like it was quite intense because of the way it started. But you know, we'll never know. She was born, she, yeah, healthy, no complications again. So yeah, no postpartum hemorrhage, very minimal blood loss. Yeah, and everything was sort of normal. She was my first COVID baby, which was a bit of, you know, different experience in the hospital. We'd just gone into lockdown the week prior. But yeah, no, apart from that, it was very straightforward. breastfeeding was very straightforward. My first, we did have some latching issues, I think it's been the first time. But yeah, no, her, it was, yeah, probably like, yeah, she's been, yeah, really, she was a really great baby and easy baby for, you know, what that's worth. Yeah, and she was very straightforward. Yeah. Yeah. So that was my first two. And then it was sort of after her birth, where I really, became a lot more interested in home birth. Yeah, but then when I got around to my third financially, it just wasn't the best decision to make at that point in time. Yeah. Yeah. I do have a question. So in your first pregnancy, when your waters break so early, what did did they continue to trickle for? Like, how did it seal back up? Or like, how? Well, yes. I had the trickling for a good few days, very minimal. I mean, it seemed to be with his head movement. When it would move a certain way, I would lose like a little bit of that amount of water. But overall, within those three weeks, I didn't lose a heap. And then even I had a scan and that showed there was quite a bit of water left. And yeah, it was like my tummy felt. there was sort of no concerns about the amount of water that was left. Yeah, and then when my waters were broken, there was a decent amount still. So, and they couldn't see a location of a break on the membrane. So whether or not it resealed, I'm not sure. Cause I don't recall feeling a lot of water loss in that last week specifically of having, yeah, being pregnant with him. Yeah. With, my son, my second son that was born in June last year, I had like, prolonged or pre labor retro -membranes or whatever. And yeah, I just remember like searching and I was 40 weeks but with Murphy, who was also born almost four years ago, like I went to 41 plus five with him. So in my head, I was thinking I'll go a similar time. So when, My waters broke at 40 weeks. Then I was like reading everything and then I learned like, my gosh, they can seal again. no. Like just pausing here to thank the May sponsor for the podcast. Let's Talk Birth and share a discount code with you all. At Let's Talk Birth, they're dedicated to providing unwavering support to women as they prepare for childbirth and beyond. You can discover tailored doula support. created products and expert guidance from endorsed midwives and certified lactation consultants all in one convenient place. Join their community and experience a space of knowledge, compassion and shared experiences as you navigate your pregnancy, birth and postpartum journey. We hold the mother while she holds the baby. For an exclusive 15 % off this May, use the code LC15, that's E -L -S -I -E 15 at checkout. You can visit letstalkbirth .au to see all of their amazing products. I recently got the Bink glass water bottle and I love it, but they have amazing carriers and very, very cool brands in store. So make sure you check it out and thank you again so much. Let's talk birth for supporting the podcast. Okay. Now we get on with the rest of the episode. Yeah. The whole stress about, yeah, I. I had 72 hours, but I still found that super stressful because it was so stressful that I didn't want to do anything. And I was told that like, if I didn't want to do anything, then prepare to sign in against Merle's advice. And like, who wants to be doing that? No, no, it's like fear mongering really. Yeah, it's horrible. Yeah. But yeah, yeah. Anyway. So your third baby, so you planned to have her, no, is it a boy or girl? She's a girl. So yeah, I've got a boy, two girls and then my boy. Yeah. So that was also planned for the birth center? Yes. Yeah, it was. So she was my final embryo that we had frozen. And hers was the most straightforward, I think getting pregnant. I mean, even though it was... a frozen embryo transfer. We just went in, started medication on my first appointment and then transferred it like two weeks later and then found out I was pregnant a few days after that. Like it was just very quick. Yeah, and she was also a very textbook pregnancy. I did go in later in my pregnancy. pregnancy for reduced movements and was told when I went in to check that because I had gone in for reduced movement. If I delivered within seven days, I wouldn't be eligible to be birth in the birth center room. okay. Yeah, which was sort of their rule, which was a bit annoying because I was like 39 weeks at that point. And I had my first 30, well, my borders had broken at 34 weeks. My second 38 weeks had her four days later. And then, Yes, I didn't think that I had too much longer left. And they did a scan a couple of days later and she was estimated to be born at about 3 .4 kilos. My first baby, he was born at three kilos. My second was 3 .8. So it seemed, you know, in the realms of what she probably would be. But then I was laying in bed one night and I thought my waters broke. and I was worried that I wouldn't make it to the hospital because I had wanted a home birth but it was just financially not in our hands. And so we rushed to the hospital thinking that I might have a baby soon. How many weeks was that? I was 40 weeks. I was on my due date, I think. But when I got there, it was confirmed my board was hand broken. So I'm not too sure what that was. Yeah, but anyway, and I had no leakage or anything like that after that. So I'm not too sure. I was offered an induction that night or that day is 3am when we're in hospital and I wasn't mentally prepared to like have an induction you know then because it had been recommended to me to get an induction between 38 and 39 weeks because of an IVF pregnancy which I had been declining. Okay. And so I declined an induction at that appointment but then I can't remember if it was that appointment or later that day I called up and said look... I am concerned about how fast my labor will be. So at that point I'd been having prodromal labor every night since 37 weeks. And I think just mentally I probably wasn't, I was exhausted. Hadn't slept well in weeks and I was up from 6 p to 6 a on and off having these very regular contractions that were quite strong. Always at night time? Always at night time and then come like 5, 6 a they taper off. Yeah and I just think at that. point I was done and I agreed to an induction. Again, probably I wouldn't make that same choice now, but that's what I decided to do. So they got me in a 40 plus two for that morning and ruptured my membranes and there was meconium present. fresh macronium and so it was suggested to me to start the centosan drip which I declined and I just hung out in the room for an hour and then labor started and once labor started it was 40 minutes until she was born. legally. Yeah. You don't mess about. No, no, but to be fair the first half hour was extremely manageable. And then I started going into transition, but in my head, I was like, it's not even an hour, I can't be in transition yet. And so I did consent, I did ask actually to get checked at that point and I was four centimeters. And so my midwife's like, you've got a little bit further to go. And And I then asked for the epidural because I thought, you know, I'm only four centimeters. I've at least got a few more hours. I can't do this. Yeah. So then it's like less than half an hour later that you... It was seven minutes from that check to when she was born. She's so cute. So I don't know if something happened in that check where my like cervix was disrupted or you know, what happened there or if it was just how I go. Yeah. And so I... Well, I thought it's not like a... Yeah, like the concept of like one centimeter per whatever is not based on like physiological. No, and it's never applied to me personally. And to be fair, most women I speak to about their births, especially home birth, that hasn't applied to them. I personally know very minimal people that that one centimeter, two centimeter per hour, it's actually like being the case. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. my gosh. So yeah. So they managed to get the epidural. No. So I'd asked for it. But my midwife, I think she probably knew I was in transition and she's like, you don't have time for an epidural. One thing I didn't realize until after I had the home birth, which shouldn't have happened in that labor that I am a little bit upset about, is that before labor, we started the induction, I was asked if I would consider the sterile water injections, which I, in all my pregnancies have said, no, it's not something I'm interested in. It's still to this day, not something that I don't feel I'd ever try. Yeah, she was very pro sterile water injection. She's like, I'm just going to get them like just in case. And I saw them and I was like, no, it's not something. It's so random. It is. Yeah. I don't think I've like, you know, I've recorded like over 40 hours of first stories and I don't think like I know about Sarah Warren injections, but I don't think anyone I've interviewed has had them. They sound horrible. Yeah, it sounds yeah. For not a guarantee that it'll work. And I know I've had heard of stories where people have had them and they have had them multiple times through that labor. And that's so good for them. I'm so glad that. I don't know, it's just something that I'm not interested in. Yeah. It's so strange for her to be hooked up. Very. Hooked on like a bit. Yeah. And so when she said I was not going to have time for an epidural, she said, what about the serowater injections? And I didn't consent. I was saying no. But she said that she thought it was going to be good for me and her and the midwife in training got me up. kneeling against the bed and marked with the pen. And they counted down, they're like three, two, and on two. I was like, I feel a head. And her head was like crowning. And so they didn't do it. Yeah. And then what I think was even worse is that after birth, she made a comment and like, I didn't even think twice about it until after my home birth. And she was like, I scared the baby out of you. Now I think back. I'm like that. horrible, horrible language. And then like a second, like a training midwife was in there watching that too. And I don't know, I just look back on that now specifically. And that was a really something that I think about in my head. And I was like, I was about to get those water injections, literally not consenting to them at all. my goodness. Yeah. And like at a time when like everything should be hands off and you should just be assuming whatever position. you feel you should be in. Yeah. And the head is like literally coming out and somebody's like, yeah. So that's it. But yeah. And like, I think it took a while because apart from that, I really liked the midwife. And so it was kind of hard to put that negative thought on her when everything else, I had a very positive experience. So yeah, I think that's why it took. You know, I didn't really think much of it until after my recent birth. Yeah, so anyway, what happened is that I was leaning on the bed, I felt the head, and then that came out, and then I felt a burning, like a really intense burn on my pelvis. And at that moment, I knew that I had had a shoulder dystocia, or was experiencing a shoulder dystocia, and I wasn't frightened at all, and sort of before... as I was thinking that the midwives flipped me onto my back and did the McRoberts maneuver and brought my knees up to my shoulders. And she came out like instantly. She did need help and needed some assistance breathing. So they cut the cord instantly and took her away, which I questioned whether that was the best. thing that could have been done, but that's just what was done at that point. Yeah, exactly. And then, yeah, so she was worked on. And yeah, and then she was brought to me for a little bit off memory and then had to be taken away to get a tube put in to suction some of the fluid out of her stomach. I don't, I'm not 100 % sure. I haven't actually, yeah. So that happened. And so prior to all of this, even though it's known that there's meconium in your waters and this has happened and whatever, her heart rate and other signs were okay whilst she was experiencing labour, going through birth. Yes, yes. So there were no signs on the CTG as far as I'm aware that anything was going on. They did have the pediatricians come in because that's standard practice when you have necronium is that when babies are back to people and they do bring the pediatric team into the room. Anyway, so she was worked on and then brought back to me and it's she was for nearly 4 .2 kilos. And so she was way off the estimated 3 .4 kilos from the scan that I've had. You know, like less than a week or a week before. Yeah, but it was fine. Like it. I had no tearing, any further complication. Yeah, there was no further complications on my end. And then they were just checking her blood sugar because I didn't, well, I did do the diabetes test for her pregnancy, but I vomited up the drink before I, like right before I did the second blood draw. So they still did it because it was so close, but they weren't sure if it was, you know, a dodgy reading because I had vomited. But there was no signs that her blood sugar was. off and she was completely fine. And then at about 11 hours old, she, a nurse came in to do the OBS. And when she woke me up coming into the room, I did notice that her breathing was extremely fast. I was like, it's a bit odd that they're here to do the OBS anyway. And then yeah, they did all their things. And then, they did say her breathing was very rapid and they took her to the special care unit expecting maybe just like an hour or two. It was only about three, it was about, yeah, one a I think at this point. And so they took her down, they're like, look, by five, she'll be back with you, it won't be a problem. And then it just sort of, yeah, her breathing just didn't recover very. quickly at all and her heart rate would keep accelerating and she would need stimuli to like bring it back to a normal level. Yeah and they just couldn't get her off the oxygen as soon as they turn it off or bring her out of the crib that she was in, the little oxygen crib. her oxygen levels would just plummet into the 80s. For people that are listening, it should be much, much higher than 80. An adult should be almost 80, but for a little baby, it should be way above 100. In utero, it's like 160, 150. I'm not too sure what actually happened, but she had an x -ray done after I think like six hours and her breathing was still quite rapid and oxygen levels would not stabilize. And I was told that her X -ray was fine, that there was no signs of anything wrong. And I said, they're like, she's just adjusting. But then when it got to like day five, day six, and we ended up transferring to a more local hospital. for me. They did another x -ray and then when I walked in, they said that it was so much better than the previous one. And I was like, what do you mean? Like the previous one was fine. Yeah. And they're like, no, it wasn't. Her lungs were full of, they said meconium, but yeah, it was like the, I guess the fluid. Yeah. Yeah. And so they then diagnosed her with meconium aspiration syndrome, which is an extremely rare. diagnosis to have. And it is quite controversial because putting the cranium in front of the name suggests it was because of the macronium. But some research states that even if you didn't have macronium present, the baby still would have had that diagnosis. It just would have been called respiratory distress. So it wasn't because of the macronium. But that's quite controversial. Still, I don't think there's a, you know, it's actually no one, but I could be so wrong about that. Yeah, interesting. Yeah, and so we were told that we just take anywhere up to 12 months for her to come off oxygen. Yeah, and so we ended up bringing her home on day 10 on oxygen and she was on oxygen for four months. So we did some sleep, two sleep studies at home. She failed the first one, passed the second and then she came off oxygen. And now she's just a very happy, healthy two year old. No, no long term effects from that. Yeah. after that birth at my six week debrief that I had with one of my midwives, I said at that point that I wouldn't go to 40 weeks again because that aspiration only really occurs with babies after 39 weeks, I'm guessing, because that's when their lungs are quite developed and they can, yeah, I think. And so I asked at that point, if I did get pregnant again, could I get induced at about that 38 week mark? To which I was told yes, because of the shoulder dystocia, her size and the aspiration. was, yeah, possible. Yeah, and so... Wow. Like, what, so, so you've got two little kids at home, and then you have to bring home your third bubba on oxygen. So what did that kind of look like, like in terms of the setup at home? Yeah, like, so it was definitely better because we had the option of keeping her in. and doing another sleep study in like a week or two. And we just didn't feel like her being in the special care unit was good for her. I felt like being home with her mom and being able to breastfeed on demand. She was getting bottle preference, which was really frustrating because I'd be there for hours with her cluster feeding and then I'd leave and 10 minutes later I'd have to give her a bottle. And breastfeeding is very important to me. I was actually still breastfeeding the two year old at the time or the new two year old as well. Yeah. And so I just wanted her home. And so that... actually wasn't surprisingly really a concern for us. We weren't we just wanted her home and COVID my husband couldn't visit her. So he'd only met her you know twice really in the first 10 days. Yeah and so we did need to rearrange a few things. We ended up buying like a like a Mamoru bouncer and a bassinet that we didn't have so that. this big oxygen tank that wasn't really moveable. We could keep her in the living room with everybody and she had somewhere to sleep and we didn't have to move this oxygen tank around the house. But apart from that, she developed as normal. It was honestly no different. We would just have to make sure her oxygen was in and change her little... Nose probe. Yeah, nasal tubes every now and again. Yeah, no, but it was fine. I wish she got diagnosed with that earlier because realistically we could have brought her home. earlier had she not taken that long to get that diagnosis. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. What was that sort of postpartum period? Like, were you, I feel like, yeah, did you get, did you get any time to sort of just breathe for yourself, especially? No. Look, when she came home, everything just adjusted to normal. I think it was good having the two older kids because we couldn't stop our routines. So she would just come along. She was just attached to a tank. And but no, it was go, go, go. But it was, it has been the same as my fourth as well. it was very hard trying to juggle having two older kids at home and then trying to like be at the hospital as much as possible, but then having guilt, you know, leaving my two others. So, but we just tried to make it work. And I think we did the best that we could in that situation. you know, and we just, yeah, once she was home, it was so much better, so much easier. Yeah. So you've left. The third birth experience thinking next time it's an induction for me. yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think at that point I was like, this is the worst experience. Yeah. I know people, you know, sometimes have their babies in special care and NICU for so much longer. But I just, I wanted to do anything I could to avoid that happening again. Yeah. And so it wasn't until about six or seven months, first part of when we really started thinking about if we were going to have a fourth or not that. I think everything had settled with. Okay. Yeah. And then I was sort of a bit more rational in my thinking. Yeah. And I did. Yeah. And I talked to the respiratory team. I talked to my midwives again. So I called the birth center. I talked to a couple of private midwives about what had happened with me. And when I talked to my GP at the time and to make it as informed decision as what I could make moving forward. And then we quickly made the decision that we would go forth with a home birth. And cause like any, everything that happened in Violet's birth couldn't be, could be managed at home. It would obviously require a transfer, but we could do it at home if, you know, resus was required at home that could be given. And so when we realized that was the case, we felt a lot more comfortable going forth with a home birth. Yeah. Yeah. That's so, so true because. I was listening to an episode about from the, I don't know if you know, Birthing Instincts. Yeah. Another amazing podcast. And I was listening today about, they were looking at the history of maternal and I guess neonatal death across history, because, you know, a common argument against home birth is that, before like medicine, well, you know, in this particular episode, they were saying that somebody had said, 50 % of babies died or something. And so they were like exploring that whole thing. and the, yeah, the problem is it's really difficult to actually get a clear answer because the birth probably can go okay. But the, the definitions of like neonate and, like, maternal death and that, you know, it's, it's not like specific to that particular experience. It could be that on day 25, something happens, but it's still included in those stats and so much can be, you know, like, like postpartum hemorrhage and things like that. There's a way to manage those things. Yeah. And midwives come with like, Yeah, a lot of stuff. I like medication for a postpartum hemorrhage to release the placenta if that's needed. They come with oxygen and like they're very highly trained, highly skilled professionals that know, you know, they are the, apart from women, they are the next expert in physiological. birth, like they can tell if something is not physiological and then take the steps to whatever. So I think, yeah, that's because I imagine some people will listen to this episode and be like, holy crap, like you like you thought that is like the worst, like one of the worst things that could happen ever, like, you know, water is breaking before labor starting is. you know, often part of the fear is like this meconium is there meconium like is it green? Is it brown? Is it whatever? And statistically, it's not even a problem. Like I think I if you had something to do with the meconium, I literally just fell on the wrong side of statistics with that. And the chances of it happening again with regards to the meconium. Yeah, it doesn't my chances aren't increased at all. The shoulder dystocia is but that is anyway subsequent pregnancies. But you know, once you're having a shoulder dissociation, it's going to be managed the same way at home as when it's in hospital. Like you can't go on C -section at that point. There's not like extra moves that you might develop in the fall. No, no. So that's what made us, it was the shoulder dissociation we were more concerned about happening. But you know, we realised that it happened, you know, a lot of the time I believe because of the intervention that I've had that could have, you know, increased the chance of that happening. Hopefully our home birth would. lower that if anything really. Yeah. Was there any particular like resource or anything in particular that sort of you know really spoke to you on that like home birth would be the best option? I listened... to a lot of the Great Birth Rebellion and their episodes regarding like shoulder, social postpartum hemorrhage, sort of everything that related to me. And then I just talking to my midwives that I knew and just, you know, doing your own research. You know, it sounds scary sometimes when the statistics are put to you, but when you break it down, it's actually not. Yeah. So no, it was just something that, yeah, once everything settled down, we started thinking about having a fourth child that I just, I really wanted to home birth. And I knew that if I didn't have a home birth, I would regret it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the people around you, including your partner, like, you know, friends, family, like. because like for you to come to terms with that is like one thing. Yeah. But for other people, you know, that might not be like particularly the case. Like, how was it for you? Well, we we didn't actually like announce that we were pregnant because I didn't want those comments. Yeah. We obviously did get some from, you know, people that did know like, what if something goes wrong or, you know, you know, that. comments that you kind of would expect, unfortunately. But my husband and I were very confident in our decision and we were on the same page. So it was never an issue. It was just like, well, this is what we're going to do. If you wouldn't do that yourself, that's absolutely fine. That's your call, but this is ours. And we then wouldn't continue on with conversations about it unless people were willing to learn about it and actually... you know, be educated about it. Yeah, and open mind about it exactly. Then we would go into it. But it's very obvious when people just want to put their opinion in and then we just literally wouldn't engage in the conversation about it. Yeah. Yeah. So in that side of things, it was fine. And we intentionally didn't tell people a lot of people because of that. Yeah, we just didn't want that negative, you know, negativity around it. Yeah, yeah, not needed. And was your pregnancy, different or similar or? Yeah, so we found out we were having a boy quite early on and he was almost the same as my first, who was also a boy coincidentally, very textbook, a boring pregnancy really. It was not very interesting, which is good. That's good. Yes, yes. So yeah, we got two, 32 weeks. And my midwife that I had hired couldn't take me on anymore for some personal issues. Not issues, but just her life, which was very unfortunate. So we thought I would have to go back into the hospital setting and that was very upsetting. But she got me in touch with some midwives who got me in touch with other midwives. And then I got in touch with Sasha. Yeah, through. Is that Hopkins? Yeah. wow. She's fantastic. Was that in the Born at Home film? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so she ended up taking me on. Amazing. Late in my pregnancy. And she, as soon as I talked to her, we knew she was a lot better fit for us. And we just felt so comfortable. The only negative thing was that she was going away sort of around my due date for four days. And that ended up being one of the days that my son... came, of course, but we were prepared for that. So she gave me the option of going into the hospital if my son was born in those days or having another midwife coming from the South side, which we were worried they wouldn't make the delivery. So we just ran through a few things like what if I was having a shoulder dystocia or just, you know, generally delivering by yourself. So I was completely comfortable. Yeah, so my my waters broke and I was like 39 .5 or something like that and I actually cried for like 20 minutes not because of my midwife not being there because I completely come to terms with that. I just did not think I was having a baby that week. I thought I was going to go post -dates and I was just like I... It was a full rupture of my membranes and I knew that when I had a full rupture, I generally went into labor very quickly after that and had a baby very quickly. It was like 11 o 'clock at night and I was like, I'm not ready to have a baby before the sun wakes up. Like realistically, that's happened for you. So like, yeah. Yeah. And I was just like, I cannot. So anyway, I just sat on the toilet and my waters were breaking, crying. Yeah, and then my husband called the midwife and she came on the way and then I had a shower I washed my hair, you know, I think I blow -dried it I can't really remember and then I calmed down completely and I was like, you know what this is happening Nothing I can do about it We just moved house like a week prior so we actually didn't know what house this baby would be born into that was a bit stressful So I think it was just like moving house I was post -dates my midwife wasn't there was just like a combination of everything and I just did not expect going to bed that night like an hour beforehand that I was having a baby like that didn't even cross my mind because I had had no prodromal labor and it was my first pregnancy that I had no prodromal labor. Yeah. And so I was, I just wasn't expecting it and I was like, okay, this is happening. And then I looked and my waters were like yellow. I was like, and that was one of my biggest fears was having the cranium in my waters even though I knew, you know, that it probably would be okay. But I didn't, I just felt so, I was like, well, labor's gonna start now anyway. There's nothing I can do. There's no point in my waters. We'll just have to deal with it. I called my midwife and the midwife who was on call for me and told her the color. And she said that yellow indicates that it is quite old, probably about a week. So there's a minute there and I hadn't packed like a hospital bag or any bag just in case the transfer was needed. So I did get my husband to pack one just in case, cause that made me feel a lot better. And I was like, just hide it under the cot. Just. in case I need to go. That's just one thing that I'm stressed about. Yeah. But then the midwife came, labor started an hour after my waters ruptured. And it was quite intense, again, like my second, but the contractions were very like space. They started at like seven minutes apart and then like made their way down. And so it was more typical in that. aspect and then my midwife I was probably less than an hour into labour and I was like I can feel pressure I don't need to push yet but I am feeling baby there. It's called the second midwife came and then I drunk two litres of juice it sounds really ridiculous I don't know why I did it it was like probably just under two litres of juice. Yeah. What kind of juice? Like I don't know like guava juice or something. I was just at a family dinner the night before and I just went overboard and I needed to like go to the bathroom like yeah 10 minutes and so I don't know if this is what happens but it felt like what was happening is that I would go to the toilet and then baby would descend down or push and give me that pressure and then my bladder would fill back up and it would like that's what it felt like was happening yeah and so label was my longest label six hours from start to finish which I know is very short yeah you know in general yeah yeah. But it felt like it was going on forever. And it was just, and also because I was feeling like I needed to push for like a contraction, I really thought that I was like about to have a baby. And then the pushing sensation would just go. Yeah. Yeah. And that happened like on and off. And then my midwife did approach me because the contractions just stopped really. They didn't stop, but they slowed down heaps. She's like, look, can I? internally check you, just to get a very clear idea of what's happening. Because I can see baby descending and coming down and can see him kind of there. And then it's just coming back up. I just like, you know, to have is that okay? And I can send it to that. And that was about 530 in the morning. At that point, like, I had started at midnight. Yeah. And I was four centimeters. Yeah. And I just had this feeling that I just I needed to sleep. I was so tired. My husband was like, no, get up, go and have a shower, keep moving. Yeah, I think he was tired too. And I said, no, like I can't, I just need to sleep. So my midwife helped me get into a position that was comfortable and I fell asleep within like two minutes after that check. Wow. Yeah, for 20 minutes. But what was annoying is that I had the tens machine on, which is amazing. The most amazing thing. I had it for my last two labors. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I wish I had it for my other two. It was incredible. But I fell asleep with the thing in boost mode. no. And so yeah. And so I had a sleep for 20 minutes. So it was about 10 to six. Yeah. When I woke up, if that, and then I went to boost it because I was in transition. I woke up in transition and contractions one after the other and it was already boosted. And I, And so it did nothing. I was so annoyed at myself, but it was fine. I knew baby was coming at that point. That's so incredible. Like that. plateau in labor. Like it's only sort of like a recent thing that I've learned about. But yeah, like your body is just so clever. Like you're saying I want to go sleep. I needed to say I've never had that feeling since I never had it before then where it was like, I just have to sleep and I normally take forever to fall asleep. And I just instantly fell asleep on the couch and it was the best feeling. So I woke up but yeah, it was a bit of a rude awakening waking up to a transition. I'm still going to get birth this year. But I was very excited because I knew I woke up and I was like, I'm going to have a baby. I didn't vocalize it because I couldn't vocalize at that point. I was like, I'm having a baby in the next few minutes because it was about, it was just before six o 'clock. Yeah, but I've already had a nap. So I'm ready for the day. And I was ready and I was so excited and the pain, I wasn't scared of it. That was the first time in my life that I wasn't trying to fight the pain. Like it was, I mean, I guess some people don't call it pain, but for me that transition is quite... painful for me, very intense. And I wasn't trying to fight it. I like, I welcomed it if anything, it was like, yes, this baby's coming. And I was so excited to catch my own baby. That was my one thing, like my main thing. I was like, I want to catch this baby myself. Everyone do not touch me when I'm fishing, do not touch me. And so anyway, I was like, I need to go to the toilet again, ran up to the toilet and then I... was just looking at my bathtub. I didn't want a water bath. It was something that I just wasn't interested in at that point. But I remember I was like, I don't know what else to do. My TENS machine's not working. It's so intense. And I was like, you know what? My midwives can find me. They'll hear the bathtub going. And so I just leant over the bath to open the tap and I just felt a head. And I was like, yes! And I don't know what I was thinking. I just like, I just, I twaddled downstairs back in like... you know, down a few stairs, wasn't many, back into like my birthing space, which is the sun room of the house. So it was like separate, it could be locked, it could be closed off in the main. And at that point, my husband's mom was there to collect my other children. So I could labor without being like interrupted. Yep. Yep. And then as soon as she's left, everyone left, I was like, I need to push and felt down and ahead. was there. Yeah. And was, yeah, crowning. and then, yeah, I did say in my birth plan that I really wanted to breathe the baby out because normally when I start pushing, it's a really quick thing. I really, I love pushing. I know that sounds insane, but it is the best feeling. Like I, after having, I find it not painful, after those contractions, then having the feeling of pushing is so relieving. And so I really wanted to slow it down so that I could really, you know, easy to it and like feel it yeah and it it's gonna be our last baby so i was like i really want to remember it and i was like at that point i was like no i just want this baby out and he came out and i caught it it was like instinctively as soon as he started coming out my hands just went down i pulled him up onto my chest and it's the best feeling I just and I remember every second of it like it was yesterday. And yeah, no issues. As soon as I saw it, my first thing I said is like he is not 4 .2 kilos. I thought I was going to have a big baby again. He was very close to his due date and I had, you know, bigger babies. Yeah. Like last year. And he was so little compared to them. And I was like, damn it. I really wanted to crack 4 .2 kilos. But no, he was just Yeah. And I was like, no, he's definitely not 4.2. But anyway, yeah. Then went onto the couch and then instantly the after birth pain started. And I hadn't had them before. Really? Never? No, like not to that. I felt them, but I never needed like pain relief for them or it didn't bother me. I could have baby feeding. I'd had had the injections with my last three. And so I guess the placenta came out quite quickly anyway. But yeah, I'd never noticed it before. And It was horrible. It was like the worst part of the labor was his ulcerative colitis. So I was like, I've just pushed the baby out. I'm trying to enjoy him on my chest. And I just couldn't. I was like, someone take this baby. Like I'm in so much pain. And my midwife that I had, she had the tincture. Yeah. And she's like, look, have this. And I can't remember if I verbalized it or just thought about it, but I was like, go to the fridge, get the injection and just get this placenta out because I can't do anything. I mean, yeah, a lot of pain. But anyway, she gave me the tincture and now she's like, stand up and latch baby. And I did that and instantly the placenta came out. Yeah. And so it was like less than 10 minutes and it was out and I didn't need any other assistance or any assistance with that. And I could, what was interesting is I could feel on that latch that his latch wasn't good. And I was like, no. Didn't think too much of it, but it just, it never got better. And I did actually end up needing help from a certified lactation consultant. Yeah, well, yeah, later on for some help with blotching. Yeah, but yeah, I had that he was weighed he was like 3 .6 kilos, which was small for me for that gestation. Yeah, and it all went to plan. I think we had the delayed cord clamping, which was the first for me, which I wanted. And I'm a photographer. So I really wanted specific photos of the placenta and him attached. So I got them. So I want to say it was a two hours possibly more that he was attached for. And then it just sort of started to annoy me having to like, yeah, carry that away with him. Yeah, so we, yeah, cut it. And then when they did his OBS and stuff, I just went up and had a shower and came back down and we, you know, fed and the midwives were gone like four hours after birth. And then, yeah, he fed and fed and fed for like those four hours. And then he slept for like six hours and him and I just slept. And it was the best and then woke up and life got back to normal. It was like, yeah, it was pretty crazy. That's, whoa. Yeah. So very positive experience. Yeah. And I wish that I'd done it sooner. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, hindsight, like, yeah, it's. It's a slippery slope. It is. And I would say I regret it not doing it now. So up until his labor, I said, look, I'm glad I didn't deal with my third because I would have had to transfer anyway. But the more that I talk to midwives and do my own research regarding her diagnosis, it makes me wonder, would she have had the aspiration had I had an undisturbed birth and not been touched and... Who knows? So if I could go back, I would have a home birth still with her knowing what had happened and just accepted a transfer. But yeah, because of the actual birth experience and how respected and intimate and yeah, and in power I felt of my own space. You know, I wasn't adhering to anyone's rules and I never felt what I was doing was wrong or, you know, and I was never in panic. there was never any stage of any panic and it was just so gentle and calm and it was beautiful. Yeah. Wow. And so when did the kids get to come back? So my daughter actually watched a little bit of my labor and we were my son didn't want to watch, which was fine. And so we actually got him like headphones and a couple of games and put it in his room because we didn't know how fast my life would be. I didn't know if anyone else would make it back to the house. So we just gave him headphones and that's it. If I wasn't like that, he could move away into his own space and not, you know, hear anything or yet be involved with my daughter. She really wanted to be there for the birth. She woke up at like 5 a right before I sort of had to sleep and she was there for like two minutes and she was like, This is taking so long. And at that point I was like, you're telling me. And she wanted to save them when grandma came to collect them. She's like, nah. grandma like I'm going to say you're way too long yeah and so and she loves her grandma so she decided you know she would bail on me yeah go for grandma but I think that's what I needed because as soon as the kids left my space yeah and my husband was actually out of the space at that moment dealing with them I just progressed so quickly yeah I think I just needed everybody just to like you know not be there and just really sink into what was happening. I think that actually helped a lot. So yeah, yes. And they came and they met him pretty soon after waking up. So it's very eight hours old at the time. Yeah, 10. And yeah, and it just fell back into normal. My husband was cooking dinner. We're all eating around dinner table. And it was just like such a normal day. It was like, it was kind of like, I guys I just had a baby. but it was good. It was perfect. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Like, yeah, I still think it's like so I want to say fantastic, but I'm just also thinking about like all of the like the meconium aspirational, you know, whatever they refer to it as, whatever they diagnose it as, you know, isn't common. No. But like, I don't know if there'd be many women out there that are then gone on to choose a home birth. Like, yeah, because it's hard. Yeah, because even with the code and aspiration, if that is diagnosed, it's very rare that a baby needs oxygen post 72 hours. I think it is. So it was just I literally just fell on the wrong side. So it's like, yeah, it was just very unfortunate thing. Yeah. But. yeah, it happened. I mean, there's nothing I can do about it now. We don't like dwell on it. even though I'd make different choices now going back, it's just, if that's just what happened. And I don't think I, at the end of the day, don't think I would have been so strong on having a home birth this time had that not had happened. Yeah. It's as funny as that seems. Yeah. I've spoken to multiple women that like have said very similar thing, like, that their experience was traumatic or things happened in a way that they didn't. envision or didn't like it to happen. But if it wasn't for that experience, they wouldn't have had a home birth. And you know, for everyone that I've spoken to about at home, like it's just the most amazing experience, you know, even if there has had to be a transfer after or you know, x, y, z, like the actual birth at home has been extremely powerful and powerful in a way that you just don't have at hospital. Even, you know, what you say about like being left alone and things like progressing quicker. I've heard that so many times and like that's that's so, you know, when I was a student midwife, there were times where like I would be sort of left in the room with the mum in labor. And like maybe the dad would be in there and you know, in that sense, it was sort of alone. But like when you're in hospital, like, where is the dad gonna go? Like, you know, the partner or support person, like, you're allocated one room, one space, and that's the space you've got to use. Whereas at home, you have multiple spaces like. Yeah, and I could just do whatever I felt comfortable doing. And I did birth in the rooms that I thought that I would. And I set it up when I, my husband was out because it was like, yeah, 1130 or something like that when my waters broke. And I had put, it was raining. So I put all my plants, I had heaps of indoor plants, and I had them all outside getting black watered. And I was like, my plants, I need them in. And my husband, he was so sweet. He was out in the rain. And he set up, he set up my birth space beautifully. He put like a plastic sheet under the mat. And he got the Google and brought music and he got my diffuser and my salt lamp. He was amazing. There was one comment he made when I was in transition and we just moved house. We didn't know the neighbors and the room I was in was kind of close to their door. He's like, can you just stop screaming? And he told me afterwards, he's like, I just thought I didn't want someone to call the police. I didn't want to deal with that. Because he's like, because I... I'm quite loud during that transitional phase. That's what I need. But it was, yeah, I just, I gave him this look and he just, he didn't talk again. Outside with the plants again if you're not careful. Yeah. But no, he was, he was so good and he was very supportive the whole way through of having a hand birth, which I think was so important for me. Yeah. Our biggest. fear going in would be transferring. At the time I was like, I don't want to have a home birth and then have to go to hospital anyway. But now that I've had the experience of birthing at home, I would any day of the week have a birth at home. And if I needed to transfer, that's what needed to happen. I would still choose the home birth. Yeah, because the actual birth itself is just incredible. And I don't believe that can be replicated in a hospital setting. Even the lowest of intervention in a hospital. I just don't see how you could replicate anything like that. It just, yeah, you just can't, I don't think. Yeah, I totally agree. Like, was there, I just think it's like so amazing as well that your husband was so on board, but I guess, you know, that also just speaks to. you know, the strength of your relationship, presumably to be on the same page about, you know, and to respect like that you've done the work and you've done, you've looked into it and like it is your body and your experience and like, yeah, that's like, what an amazing story. You're amazing. So, so cool. Yes. No, overall we've had, I'm very lucky to have had four births and even with my third one, I don't, I've had a traumatic birth myself. I think in general, there have been extremely positive experiences. I'm disappointed in how few things have gone, but overall, I think of birth so positively and I just, I really want to pass that on to my daughters. That's so important for me. you know, because the high rates of birth trauma and that can affect people their whole life and their postpartum and how they go on to parent. I just feel like it's so important to be surrounded with positivity. And so, home birth is just like a normal thing. My daughter, I mean, she tell people, she's like, mom just like was at home, she had the baby at home. Like, it's just such a normal thing. And that's what I want. And whether or not they go on to choose to do the same things, you know, it's up to them. And I don't mind either way, but just having that, you know, integrating positivity into it, I think is just so important. Yeah. Yeah. I think like, yeah, I mean, you'll have changed their lives. Absolutely. In the sense that like, like most women don't even hear about birth, let alone home birth, until they're actually pregnant. And, you know, your daughters will like, obviously know about it from the get go. Like it's, you know, and so if they want to have you know, if they want to choose that option, it's something that they'll be able to know about before they begin on that journey. Because, yeah, most people find out about it on their journey. And for some people, unfortunately, it's too late. They're already, you know, on a in a particular model of care. And like you've like you said, and like in my experience as well, a home birth is freaking expensive. It is. Yeah, it is. And I'm wearing it, you know, fortunate position. We knew before I conceived that's what we want. So we're prepared for that. Yeah. Yeah, and I did talk to some midwives who were private but they were connected to a hospital and they needed the OB's permission to be able to have a free birth and I was automatically disqualified because of my shoulder socia and all that stuff. And so even if the publicly funded option was available for me at the moment in Queensland, which I think they have just opened one up locally to me. I don't qualify for it. So because I am in the system, unfortunately deemed high risk. Yeah, same for me, which is crazy to think about because I had to. Yeah, well, especially especially Frankie's birth last year was completely physiological. Nothing was an issue, but because they were both over four kilos that were like that. immediately gets you kicked out of the funded program. And it's like, it's crazy because that's not even what even the research states. And I think the mothers and baby reports don't even deem a large baby until 4 .5 kilos but in the hospital it's four. Yeah, I just think it needs to be something that's better known about and the statistics to be more available for women. you know, clear statistics given. It does sound scary when you're over 40 weeks and your risk of stillbirth doubles. But when you break it down into numbers, it's really not that high. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And high risk. They're so like, what does that even mean? But yeah, the actual number ratio percent or whatever is quite small. Yeah. And I just don't think it's a coincidence that my only home birth and physiological birth, was my only one that went physiologically with no intervention and was fine. Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing all of that. That's like, yeah, I'm so excited for people to listen because yeah, these are kind of stories that, well, I've never heard of a story like this before. So that's like just incredible. Is there anything that... like you forgot to say or you like to add or anything like that? No, I think we pretty much covered everything that's the basics. I mean, you could talk for hours really. Yeah. No, but I really appreciate your time and letting me share my story. And yeah, hopefully some people that are in the hospital at the moment or deemed high risk will do want to come back and don't think it's possible with the endorsement advice. You can kind of look into those options and see if that's something that aligns with them. So, yeah. Absolutely. Thank you so much, Shelby. No worries. Thank you.