Episode 35 is shared by Courtney, a doula and personal trainer, in NSW. After never really thinking of having children, Courtney ended up in a birth rabbit hole which led her to choosing a birth centre birth for her first baby, and then in an effort to reduce the risk of more interventions, she chose homebirth with her second baby. We chat about birth, pregnancy, post partum & all the varying experiences. A beautiful feel good episode ✨
Links to resources:
Episode 35 is shared by Courtney, a doula and personal trainer, in NSW. After never really thinking of having children, Courtney ended up in a birth rabbit hole which led her to choosing a birth centre birth for her first baby, and then in an effort to reduce the risk of more interventions, she chose homebirth with her second baby. We chat about birth, pregnancy, post partum & all the varying experiences. A beautiful feel good episode ✨
Links to resources:
You're listening to Birthing at Home, a podcast. I'm Elsie, your host. I recorded this episode on unceded Wurundjeri land in Nam, Melbourne, Australia, where Aboriginal peoples had been birthing at home on country for thousands of years prior to the British invasion. They are the original storytellers. If you want to learn more about me, the podcast or how I can support you in achieving your home birth, be sure to check out my Instagram at birthingathome.com. episode 35 is shared by Courtney from Lake Macquarie. Courtney is a doula NPT and is a home birth mama. Courtney shares her journey of having a birth center birth and then her wholesome and beautiful home birth story with now nine month old Pacey. We also chat about diet culture and our society's obsession with restricting and non -intuitive eating even in pregnancy. Now, before we begin, I would also like to let you all know that I am excited to now be offering doula services across the spectrum of pregnancy, birth and postpartum. You can find out more on my Instagram or by checking out the offerings on my website at www .birthingathome .com .au. Now for another amazing home birth story. Welcome Courtney to Birthing at Home, a podcast. Hi, how are you? I'm good, thank you. I'm so excited to have you on today. I think it's been a little time coming, but finally we're here. Yeah, I'm excited. I think it has been a little while as well. I think you had your trip to India, which looked amazing. But yeah, I'm excited to be here. Yeah. Do you want to start off by telling the listeners like a little bit about who you are, where you live, who's in your family? Absolutely. So I am Courtney. I am located in Lake Macquarie, which is kind of between Newcastle and Sydney in New South Wales. And I live here with my husband and my two boys. My oldest is almost three and my youngest right here is almost seven months old. And yeah, I guess a little bit outside of being a mum, I am also a doula. So I work in the birth space supporting. women throughout, yeah, pregnancy, birth and postpartum. And that's a little passion of mine that came about after having my first son. And that's a huge part of my story. And it's really impacted a lot of what I do and what I've done in the past. But yeah, that's pretty much the brink of it. That's what I feel like I do spend most of my days doing, either mumming or, yeah, dweller -ing in some capacity. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. You know, stepping into like doula work, like only after you had Dax who you said will be three in June, is that right? Yeah. Like growing up and, you know, in like early adulthood, like what was your thoughts around pregnancy or birth, let alone not even home birth, but just like pregnancy and birth? Well, that's funny. Yeah. So that's literally where it all kind of stems from for me. I grew up. really conditioned to believe that birth was this really bad, traumatic, medical thing that you go through and it's a bit of a burden. And I was really conditioned to believe that. And for the longest part, I was like, well, I'm not going to have kids because who would want to put themselves through that and like, you know, go through all that trauma and like carry that with them. So yeah, for a really long time, I was like, I don't want to have kids and... you know, I was trying to convince my husband to adopt like that's literally how much I did not want to be pregnant and give birth. I was like, that is not for me. Like people would try to show me like birth photos. I've like, get that away from me. Like, yeah. So I've done like a huge three 16, like I think where I am now, like I was just saying to someone yesterday, I was like, if someone told me like five years ago, like I would be where I am now. I would be like, That's a joke. Like, it's just so like, yeah, it's just the complete opposite, honestly. Yeah. So yeah, and like, going back to that, my husband was like, well, I just want to have like one kid on my own, just like one. And I was like, well, gosh, surely, like, I've got to do something like there has to be something that I can do to not go in so scared. And that was the thing, like I had so much fear around it, just from what I was told, or how birth was perceived to me, I was like, There has to be something I can do to just like be a little bit less scared. And that just led me down a rabbit hole of birth education. Yeah. Yeah. Like that just changed my complete perception on birth. I was like, wow, birth does not have to be scary. It doesn't have to be medicated. It doesn't have to be, you know, this big traumatic thing. It's normal and it's natural. And yeah, that's kind of where everything has stemmed from from that. Yeah. Amazing. Do you know how you were born? Yeah, I do. Yeah. So my mom didn't have a great birth experience. She had a gosh, like three day labor or something like that. And I was born by the four serps and really dramatic and just yeah, that's where my main idea of birth came from. Like, I love my mom, obviously. But yeah, I just always remember hearing how, you know, my birth was so was so bad and. Yeah. did all these things and then she ended up having caesarean like with my brother like a planned one from birth with me. Yeah. And then I just remember she didn't have a great recovery from that caesarean. So then that was also etched in my brain like her recovery was so long and hard. So that is like a lot of where my my fear around birth came from. Yeah. And had you ever heard of home birth or like do you? Gosh, probably not back then. And I think back then if someone told me that they're having a home birth, I would have been like, you're mad. Good for you, but that's a bit weird. I didn't think I probably knew what home birth was to like, yeah, maybe like, once I went down that rabbit hole and I found where I birthed my first son, like they offered home birth, that's probably the first time I'd really ever heard of it or understood what it actually was. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well. I always love hearing like the journey to finding home birth because they are more often than not like, yeah, that is like society's perception of home birth. Like just like you're weird, you're crazy. Yeah, like everyone wants these really ideas that birth is so medical and scary. That's like, well, why would you do that at home without anything? You know what I mean? It's like surely it must be worse than like if it's already bad in hospital. my gosh. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. But so Dax was born in a birth center, which is pretty cool, I think, because there aren't like a lot of birth centers. Like in Victoria, there's no birth centers. Yeah. There's only like a handful, not even a handful, I think, in Australia. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's one like in Perth, maybe. And I know maybe there's like a couple in New South Wales, but like apart from that. Yeah, so do you want to walk us through like your pregnancy experience with Dax and like how you landed on like birth center? Yeah, for sure. So I guess how I landed on birth center that started before I was even pregnant. Like once I went down that rabbit hole, I found out about Belmont who offers the birth center and home births where I am. And I was like, that's it, that's where I'm birthing. Like you couldn't pay me to go into a hospital like the birth center, like that's where it's at, like that's where I'm giving birth, there's no option. And then when I found out I was pregnant, like I went to the, you know, you do the classic thing, you go to the doctor and like the one, the first thing that I said, I was like, I'm pregnant, but like I'm birthing at Belmont. He was like, all right, just settle down a bit. Like you just peed on the stick. I was like, yeah. Like. only limited amount of women get into this program. I was like, I want to be one of those. And he was like, I'm not going to send it. I think he was like, I'm not going to send a referral now. We'll just wait a little bit. I think that's like classic, like, you know, you really early, like, who knows what's going to happen type thing. But I was like, so adamant, I was like, if I miss out on a spot, like, that's my only option. Like, there felt like there was no other option for me. But yeah, that's how I guess I've led. It's alright, how I led to go to the birth center. But my pregnancy with Dax was, it was hard. It was really, really hard with both my boys. I've been sick for the first 25 weeks. So yeah, just like 24 -7, like nausea, like vomiting with Dax, just pretty much. Yeah, all day, every day. And then aside from that, I mentally really, really struggled with that. See, like that was the, like the hardest nine months of my life. I never got diagnosed with anything and I hit it really well, which was like a bit of a toxic trait of mine before I had kids just like not sharing a lot. I definitely would have had that perinatal depression and anxiety. I cried every day. I napped for like, five to six hours a day. Like, I just honestly like just got through each day. Like I'd go to work, I'd come home in my breakfast, vomit up my food. Like at this point I was working in a gym, so doing really early mornings. Come home, vomit everything up, sleep for four to six hours, which is just insane. And then every time I had to leave the house, I would just cry. Like honestly, like it was just like. the hardest thing like I have ever done, like his pregnancy is like such a struggle. So yeah, I guess that was pretty much like the brink of it, like apart from being, yeah, really anxious and I hate saying depressed, but like that's what I felt like. And then really sick, just everything combined and not knowing and understanding like what my body, I guess was going through that first time. It's a bit of a whirlwind, you know what I mean? Like, each day you're like, what's happening now? Like what's going to happen next? Like. And his pregnancy really brought up a lot of, I guess, like old wounds, like old mental health issues, like, you know, from being a young girl and always being quite into fitness and stuff like that. And I guess just watching my body change without having any sense of control. Like, I think that's where a lot of it spurt from like, and that just, yeah, sent me down like the biggest rabbit hole, like, yeah, like a really big spiral. So that was. Yeah, that was really hard. His pregnancy was. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's such a like I struggle with that as well. Like such a I want to say a mind fuck. I guess, you know, in my experience growing up as like a young like a young girl, young woman, like you do want to look like a certain way or like society accepts like one certain sort of. body type, I guess. And I guess to some extent, you can control that through like restricting your eating, whether it's, you know, unhealthy or whatever, but restricting or exercising or like just dysregulated eating habits. But like with pregnancy, like, you're not in control. I have like a colleague that is pregnant and she was saying the other day, like, I just want to eat. I'm so hungry, but like, I'm trying not to eat because I really don't want to gain too much weight. And I just felt so sad because that's, that's what we're taught. We're conditioned to believe that that's what we should do. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And I think, yeah, there's so much like, unhelpful messages out there on like, eating habits in pregnancy, like, you know, how like once upon a time, you know, they used to say, you can eat for two. And now it's like, you're not eating for two. And so I think women are just like, generally confused about like, well, how much can I eat? Like if I'm hungry? Can I like eat? You know, I hate that because like my second pregnancy was I very, like was very intuitive. And I'm just like, pregnancy is meant to be that intuitive. hungry, eat, you know what I mean? Like it's a time to connect to your body but all these things like socially, medically are disconnecting women from their intuition, like throughout their pregnancy, their birth and their postpartum and like, that's like such a big, like that's such an issue, right? Like connecting people from their, women from their intuition in like such a important and vulnerable time, like yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it has so many like on flow effects because like we can't even like. Yeah, thinking about it, you can't even like trust your own body to tell you if it's actually hungry or not. Yeah. You tell it. Yeah, it's like. Yeah, it is wild, hey. And I think, I don't know, like I know a lot of places do like weighing in a lot of their videos and it's like, of course, like that in itself is triggering for so many women and like. to know like how much weight you're gaining and it's wild because a lot of it is the baby and the fluid and everything and like it's actually normal to gain some weight. But like there is like this fear, I don't know if it's fear, it's like this obsession, obsession, Tommy, it's a better word, obsession about how much weight you're putting on and like is it gonna risk you out of things and like your mind and all that stuff. I'm just like, it's a bit of BS honestly. Like just let the woman grow her baby and like, I don't know, like yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And yeah, being my in pregnancy is just a whole whole thing. Did you so the reason you found the birth center was because of the pre pregnancy like education or like rabbit hole that you'd gone down? Yeah. Yeah. Did you do any other like specific birth education kind of stuff during the pregnancy with Dax? Yeah, a little bit. So it was kind of like COVID time, if you want to throw that in. of course. Yeah, because it was 2021? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, he was born in 2021. So we did actually be from Coram Flores stores, her Auntie Nadal stuff, just online. And that was really great. Like that was, yeah, just like a lot of practical stuff, I guess, for my husband. Like by that point, I felt like, then like I knew a lot I guess from all the education and my husband was super like on board like he wanted to know whatever I kind of knew he was very supportive in that sense but yeah we did her antenatal classes which were really great like we could do them in our own pace in our own living room like so that was awesome but that was probably like the bring a bit apart from yeah like my own little bits of like birth education and you know the classic like What is that Australian birth stories? I feel like that was the huge thing when I was pregnant with dad. I don't know if it's bigger thing now, but like that was a really big thing that I listened to. And I did love that because it did go through a lot of different, I guess, circumstances and women's kind of stories. But yeah, that was the main source of education that we did. Yeah. Yeah. I actually think it was like big around when I had Murphy in 2020 as well. I must have had that. I feel like maybe that's when it blew up, but. Yeah, because that's obviously a very successful podcast now. Yeah. But yeah. And did you do like what in your experience with the birth center was the sort of exclusion inclusion stuff like did you have to do certain testing? Could you decline certain things like? Yeah. So I you could decline and that was pretty there was no kind of backlash about declining anything. I declined. Yeah, I didn't do any of the testing, so to say, like, apart from, you know, like, those blood tests, like, for, you know, the classic iron, that was like, maybe the biggest concern. But yeah, like, I didn't do gestational diabetes, I didn't do GBS, all that kind of stuff. And that was fine. That there was no, I think, honestly, my midwife at the time kind of preferred it, because she's like, yeah, sweet, you know what I mean? Like, it wasn't something that she then not had to worry about. But like, it wasn't a thing that we had to, I guess, come across and deal with if something came up. So, Yeah, I declined those and I felt confident doing that. And yeah, that was seamless, really. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I guess in comparison to your then home birth experience, like birthing at a birth center is already sort of like a step outside of the square. You know, did anyone have any, like comments about not birth? Cause like, is the birth center still attached to the hospital or is it a separate sort of building? So it's attached to a hospital, but not the hospital where people are birthing. So here we have John Hunter, which is like the main, like the one of the main hospitals. And then Belmont is attached to Belmont hospital, which is just one of those like secondary, like more, it's a public hospital, but yeah, it's not, doesn't do a lot of the birth stuff. Yeah. So. Connect to a hospital, but not connect to the hospital where you'd birth. So if you needed to get transferred, you'll put an ambulance and you'll take it over to John. really? that's, that's so intriguing. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Okay. did anyone have like any commentary about, you know, choosing to birth at the birth center? Yeah, absolutely. Wow. Like, especially at the time I was, like I said, I was working in like a gym and like just. the opinions there was like probably the biggest thing is like, yeah, like I'm voting here. They're like, like you can't have anything there. Like you can't have an epidural. I'm like, yeah, no, that's fine. Like I, like I'm planning not to have one and just like the eye rolls or like the scare tactics. Like that was a really big thing. The amount of women and I feel like they probably were trying to do it out of, you know, like not wanting their experience to happen to me, but it was very much like. or like I birthed like this and this is my birth experience. Like I don't know how you would ever do it without an epidural or not having to do it. You know what I mean? Like that kind of stuff. So there was a lot of fear. Not like there was a lot of fear, I guess, around it in that setting. My family and stuff were okay. I think my mom was a bit like, like if something happens, like what do you do? And I'm like, well, like I'm not like birthing in the sticks. You know what I mean? There's still support there. So I think. For them, for my mom, it did maybe take a little bit to come to terms with, but she was pretty fine, I guess, about it. The biggest thing I found for them to wrap their head around was at Belmont, after your birth, if everything's fine, you go home in four hours. That was the biggest thing my family and my husband's family were like, what do you mean you go home? I was like, I don't know, you just go home. I know, obviously, but like then I had never done it. But I was like, well, I don't want to stay in hospital. Like, yeah, like I just hospitals just give me that feeling saying they're freaks. Then if I don't have to, I want to be in my own bed. Yeah. So that was like the biggest thing they're like, well, like, what happens if you need something? And I'm like, when the midwife will come the next day, or like, I'm not not without support. Like, I can, you know, I mean, I can call people. So that was the biggest thing, I think, for like family to get. Like that's a bit weird. Aren't you meant to stay in hospital for like five days or like a couple of days? Crazy. Wow. And that was about the birth center. My mother -in -law was like, so like when I come meeting, like how does that happen? I was like, like you won't meet him at the hospital. She's like, but like after you give birth, like I'll just come and I'll just come say hi. And I was like, no, like we'll be home in four hours. She's like, but I'll just meet him in the car. She's like, she, her idea was like, I've got to meet this baby. Like. Yeah. And I guess that's like the symbolism as well. That's like so ingrained. I was like listening to maybe a different podcast. yeah. So I started listening to this podcast called Birth on Film. And there it's like a couple in Canberra, I think it is. And. she's a midwife, and I don't know what he does, but they review like birth scenes in movies, and they reviewed the birth scene in like one of the Twilight movies the other day. And they were talking about how like, suddenly Bella, you know, one of the main characters is like wearing a hospital gown, like, but there's no, there's no reason why she would be wearing a hospital, like, it was just simply the symbolism of like, Birth equals hospital gown. And it's like, you can't separate them because then it's not a birth. It has to, just so, so bizarre. Like, so strange. But that's, yeah, that's, so she couldn't get over that she wouldn't be going to the hospital. I think like some, some, just pausing here to thank the May sponsor for the podcast. Let's Talk Birth. and share a discount code with you all. At Let's Talk Birth, they're dedicated to providing unwavering support to women as they prepare for childbirth and beyond. You can discover tailored dual support, created products, and expert guidance from endorsed midwives and certified lactation consultants all in one convenient place. Join their community and experience a space of knowledge, compassion, and shared experiences as you navigate your pregnancy, birth, and postpartum journey. We hold the mother while she holds the baby. For an exclusive 15 % off this May, use the code LC15, that's E -L -S -I -E 15 at checkout. You can visit letstalkbirth .au to see all of their amazing products. I recently got the Bink glass water bottle and I love it, but they have amazing carriers and very, very cool. brands in store. So make sure you check it out and thank you again so much. Let's talk birth for supporting the podcast. Okay. Now we get on with the rest of the episode. To some extent, like that, you know, you could say, see that that's like in society, sort of like a rite of passage as like a grandparent, like, you know, going to the hospital, meeting a grandchild. Like that's what happened. And I think like, you know, they probably heard of like, you know, their friends doing that with their nigger babies. And there was this thing and I'm like, I was like, I don't think anything worse. Why do you want to be in a hospital? And that she was yeah, like she was so set. And I was like, what did you just want to like, meet them in a home like, yeah, and you can stay and just like, sit on the couch and it's like, it's not like that awkward, like sterile type of environment. Yeah, I honestly think also like birthing the birth center, I'm kind of My family called me like that bike shape, like that person that does like weird stuff. So I was just probably like, classic Courtney, working in the business, like going home after four hours, like that's just classic her, you know what I mean? Like good on you for trying and doing that. Like, I feel like that probably was like a little bit like of everyone's thinking as well. Yeah. my goodness. I wanted to ask as well, I guess, in your experience working in the fitness or having at least experience in the fitness industry, what do you think the perception of natural, because fitness to me, I guess, is an appreciation of your body and how your body works. And I think... I don't know if I'm going to articulate this very well, but I think there's also like within society, you know, like this expectation that if you were fit before, then you've got to try and maintain some level of fitness whilst you're pregnant and like keep working out. And that is obviously amazing. I wish I hadn't been able to do that. But the lift, the thought of lifting weights, feeling so horrible is just not for me. But like, I guess, you know, working in fitness, you have like an appreciation and understanding of like how your body works. But I see whether it's just like the algorithm showing me stuff. But I see like time and time again. women that are fit or, you know, engage in a lot of like sport or, you know, gym and stuff. And they end up having, you know, quite, you know, birth experiences that require like a lot of intervention and sort of. you know, heading the way that the medical system seems to then place on them, no, your body actually can't do this, even though they work in fitness and, you know, presumably have like a base understanding of like the body can the body does work and it's pretty. I want to say flexible, but like, you know, yeah, yeah, it's capable of doing hard things. Yeah, it's capable of doing hard things. In your experience, like working in the fitness industry, like, have you got a sense of like any common? I mean, obviously in your experience, you know, people thought you were kind of crazy for like no epidurals and stuff. Yeah. But in that culture, do you find that there is sort of still, you know, this heavily? ingrained perception that on birth, you do actually need people to do stuff to your body. Yeah, I have found that. Yeah, like, I've found that it's still very much the same, which blows my mind. So my, like, you can do all this stuff pre-pregnant and you know, not in a birthing state, but then they are when you're pregnant or when you're giving birth and your body loses all its capability. Yeah. So I do find that a lot of the stories still are very much heavily ingrained in the medical. system. Like I was sitting in a circle of like women after a gym session the other week and there's probably like five of us all moms and they were all talking about their obese and you know their births and they were all very heavily ingrained in like some kind of intervention and they were like yeah I needed that like I needed like you know I needed that and my body needed that I couldn't do it without and here I am like post -home birth going. Yeah, like you know what I mean? Like you guys, I guess for background, like I'm in a CrossFit gym, like that's my sport, so to say. And like, you know, some of these women, like they're incredible in the gym. CrossFit is hard. Yeah. You know what I mean? And like, girl, if you can do like this, you can birth without that. You know what I mean? I think it is just, it's just ingrained in us that we, like we do need that support and we do need that help and then our body might. fail us. You know what I mean? And I think a lot of the time it's like, I'll just do that in case my body fails me. The trust is even there kind of from the start. So I do feel like it is still very much heavily ingrained in the medical side of things for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I just find it so interesting. Yeah. Cause when you think about like, natural birth or normal birth or whatever. And like the people that might be more inclined to choose that sort of pathway, you would think that it is like people that, you know, yeah, you know, are like in the fitness industry, but like the medical medical. Yeah, and it doesn't mean all the pies. Yeah. Anyway, I would love to hear about the birth of Dax. Yeah, yeah, so I guess how it unfolded I finished work at I worked up to like 38 weeks something ridiculous like you know what I mean? So the first baby I was like I'll just keep working like it'll be fine. I worked up to 38 weeks and in that in my 38th week I was just kind of like at that point where I was like done you know what I mean? Like not like... done being pregnant, but like, I know my brain was like, this is like the end. And I'm like, is it the end? Cause I'm only 38 weeks pregnant. Like, but I couldn't like articulate like how I was feeling like, and people were like, like you're, you're still pregnant. I was like, yeah, but like, I don't think it's going to be long. And they're like, I don't know. That's just like, I guess how it started. And then there was the day that I went into labor, I was just so. done with everyone. Like I remember going on this massive long walk with my dog without my phone. I was like, no, like everyone's messing me like, I'll be like, think of you, you're still pregnant, all this stuff. And I was like, you're still pregnant. I'm 38 weeks guys, like so mad. You know what I mean? So that day when this massive long walk with my dog without my phone, I was like, I don't want to hear from anyone. Later on, my husband's like, yeah, you probably shouldn't do that. Cause like you, you probably could like go into labor soon. You know what I mean? I mean, that night I, was laying down with my dog and I was like, this is the last time that I'm going to sit here with my dog before my baby's here. And then an hour later, my waters broke. Wow. Yeah. So then I just, yeah, just leave it at home with him. My plan was to, yeah, pop a 10 machine on from the side and just kind of labor and follow its lead, so to say. Yeah. And that was like at 10 o 'clock at night. So I just labored overnight. My husband went to sleep where I later on found out he was just laying in bed going, what the heck, I'm about to have a baby. I thought he was asleep the whole time. He's like, no, I did not sleep an inch. He's just there going, holy shit. Like, this is it. My, you know what I mean? Just got all these internal thoughts. And then yeah, it was maybe around like two, three am. I couldn't lay down any longer. So I... just went into a spare room at that point, which was kind of like my little spot that I wanted to labor. And I didn't stay there for very long. It was a bit uncomfy. So I ended up getting in in the bath. And by that point, I couldn't really communicate or I guess I was past the state of like having conversation. And throughout pregnancy, that was like a thing where it's like, like, you know, if you, you can't, you can't talk or you can traction this close, that that's a good indication to come. into the birth center. Yeah, so my husband was there time like contractions on the phone to them. And yeah, time to come in that classic, you know, how it goes. Yeah, yeah. No, like, I did not want to go like an instrument just to not want to get into that car and go to the birth center. And like, I think leaving the home was like the biggest intervention for me. And I just wish I followed my intuition and just stayed home because what would have happened like, like the The midwives would have come, you know what I mean? You know what I mean? They surely wouldn't have just left me, right? Or I would have had him and I would have pre -birth and would have been fine. But then, I guess, yeah, I wasn't confident to do that. I wasn't confident to birth at home at that point. So yeah, getting into the car eventually, I think it took me like 40 minutes just to get into the car, honestly. So I was just in such a, not a state, but I was like, no, I'm not going, I'm not doing this. And then, yeah, on the second, it might've been like a 25, 25 minute drive to the birth center. And I have this like one vivid memory. My husband is like, it's only gonna be this many contractions to the birth center and then we're gonna be there. Like, so I just remember the whole drive, he's like counting down my contractions, like 19 more contractions to go and in turn, he was like, shut the hell up. me one more time. Yeah, like I couldn't express those words. I was having all this internal dialogue thinking, shut the hell up. Yeah, like so livid that he was counting down my contractions. I'm like, you're just counting down and I'm hearing all this pain. I know I mean. So anyways, yeah, we got to the birth center and things yeah, really did slow down. So just that classic like, you know, you leave you safe space and birth kind of. has to figure out where it's at again and like regain that sense of, sense of safety. So when I first got there, they're like, this chick's about to have a baby. Her midwife's not even on her way yet. Cause she's like, she lives ages away. We've got time. Like that my midwife is very like, relaxed. She was like, you're going to live every night. Like don't call me, don't tell me. And I was like, that doesn't seem right. Shouldn't it? So she was just very much like, yeah, very. Yeah, I don't know what the term is. Yeah. They're like, this chick's about to have a baby. Like someone's like, yeah. So it was like, everyone was like, ready for me, like give birth pretty much straight away. Yeah, things just did slow down that little bit. I had gone to the pool and it slowed Labour down quite a lot. So then I got out of the pool and all this stuff. And then, so essentially, in my pregnancy, my midwife had, and I take some responsibility for this, definitely. She was like, you know, if you feel a little feel a sensation to push, like, it's time to start pushing like it's, it's go time, you know what I mean? So like, I remember being in the shower, I was like, having some kind of sensation to push. So of course, I start pushing because like that is what I was led to believe like is what you kind of do. But knowing now I'm like, that pressure was not the pressure, you know what I mean? I was not pushing at that time, like, I said to my husband in my second pregnancy, I was like, Alex, if I was in labor right now with DAX and I had this pressure on my pelvic floor, I would be pushing. And I was like 37 weeks pregnant, you know what I mean? Like second thing on your body is just like that little bit more like feel and everything. And I was like, that's just wild to me that I started pushing so early because I thought any little bit of pressure was. Yeah. So I guess that really turned everything a bit pear shape. Okay. So I pushed for three hours. Yeah, a lot of coach pushing, which was something like I really, I guess, didn't want like I had everyone just doing all these things to me to try get my baby to be born essentially, like, you know, purple pushing what they say like actions. I had midwives pushing on my acupressure points on my ankles, you know, to try to boost those contractions, which was in their side to dwindle. I literally had bruises on my ankles from pressing my acupressure points. I had, I literally pushed over every freaking corner and space of that room, that first, just like, yeah, just wild now, like looking back at it. so yeah. Towards the end, I was on the bed, which another thing that I didn't want. I guess my mind bed meant like more of a medical type of bed. But yeah, in the end, I did end up in the bed and you know, same thing, coach pushing, all that kind of stuff. I had a second midwife, I pushed down on my belly while I was pushing, which was really, yeah. I don't want to say yeah, I guess. Like, like, pushing down on the top of my belly as I push. It's this really big thing in like Germany. Like it's like this. It's like quarter. It's some kind of maneuver. Like it has a name. But yeah, so I just had a lot of things happen to me to try get my baby to be born, which I look back now. I'm like, if you all just left me alone, half an hour and like let me regroup and I may spend some time with my husband. Like I think things could have been so differently. Like you stopped attempting to birth my baby before he was born. But I'm, you know, hindsight, I didn't know that. I didn't have that train of thought in the moment. So yeah, in the end, you know, I'd been getting towards that three hour mark and I was given, I don't, I don't want to say option or choice, but I was told that it's like I either they've called me an ambulance to transfer me to the hospital or I have. and appeased on me. And at that point, you know, getting transferred and going to the hospital was like my very last thing I was like, I would do anything over that because I just felt like once I got to the hospital, it was game over, like anything can absolutely everything would happen to me. But that was kind of how I felt like if I moved to the hospital in my labor, like it would just be fully taken out of my control. And I think by that point, I was pretty done, you know what I mean? I was just exhausted. I had towards the end, I honestly like, I hate thinking about it, but I barely had any kind of contractions. My body was obviously just in that like, fight or flight, like something's not right. So I, yeah, obviously opted for the episionomy, which was not obviously ideal, but he was born and he was, he was fine. Like, honestly, like perfect. They cried straight away. Like we had that beautiful skin to skin like. That was something that I will really say was great. Like they kind of just left us to our own devices. Like we was just us, my husband and my best friend was there for his birth and Paisy's birth as well. And it was just us and we had a lot of uninterrupted time. Like they would come in randomly and do a check or do my APs on me and then they'd leave and they'd give us some more time and come back. But yeah, that's okay, bubba. That was pretty much the brink of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, did you get to go home still after a couple of hours? Yeah. So I think he was born at like, maybe like, what time was it? Like five to two. And I think we were in the car by like 5.30. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. We went home quite quickly. Yeah. Yeah. Which was, that was great. I was like, just get me home. Like, By that point, I was pretty done with even just being in the birth center and it wasn't even like a full hospital. I was like, I just want to be in my own space and not have people around me or touching me or doing sneak, you know what I mean? So yeah, I did love that. Like getting to go home was really great. Yeah. What was the healing like with the episiotomy? Yeah, pretty rough. It wasn't, it wasn't great. So I also did that classic first time thing where like you don't rest a lot. You know what I know now? I'm like, you dumb bum, you should have just rested. But yeah, no, my Pzonomy didn't heal great at all. It actually like split a little bit at the end. So the stitching came undone. So it just took like a really long time to heal. Going to the bathroom obviously was really uncomfortable. And then I also got a prolapse at six weeks. no. Yeah. Wow. Which I contribute to. all the things in the crunch machine. Obviously, so much pressure like damage to my pelvic floor. Yeah. Yeah. And so between like having Dax and having Pacey, was there like, did you engage with like a pelvic floor physio or yeah, how was that healing journey? Yeah. So I saw like the day, I think it was like the week that Dax was born, like I'd already booked in the physio six weeks. I was like, that was a non -negotiable life for me. I'd already seen her throughout my pregnancy with him. And I was like, like six weeks on the dot, like I'll be here. Cause my brain is like, I want to get back to exercise. I want to be doing that kind of stuff. So I literally think like, I think I messaged my physio, like literally the day that he was born, be like, I've had my baby. Like I had this happen. Like I booked in for six weeks on the dot. Like seriously, see you then. Like I was so keen for that. Yeah. which I'm so glad I did because I also saw a doctor at like four weeks. I think it was like three or four weeks postpartum after my midwife care finished to check my episonomy. And I was like, something's not right. Like I'm pretty sure I have a prolapse. Can you just double check? And she was like, yeah, no, you're fine. You're like, there's nothing there. Like what's wrong? And I was like, I don't like, it was that intuition thing as well. I was like, it doesn't feel right. And I know like I've just had a baby. And I know there is a sense of heaviness that you do have after that, but I was like, something isn't right. Like I just, I just knew. And she was like, yeah, like you're fine. And my husband was like, well, like you're good babe. Like it's all good. I'm like, no, like something's not all good. I was so glad that I had that six weeks, six week checkup because I'm like the damage that I would have done to myself if I went off that doctors, because by the time I went back at six weeks to my physio, I had a grade two prolapse. My - John and muscles weren't even recovered like from like Dax's birth. Like there was, essentially after six weeks I was on like another six weeks of bed rest. And heal well in those first six weeks. So yeah, it was a journey. Yeah. Yeah. my gosh. And was that like a consideration in like becoming pregnant with Pacey or? Yeah, I definitely had, I guess some. some fear around it. For sure. I had, I kind of had come to terms with the expectation that I would probably tear in my next birth, just because it had the piece under me and I had all that pelvic floor kind of stuff, if that makes sense. And I was like, okay, like if I tear, I'd rather tear any day over than what I've had experienced previously. And I was fine with that. I did a lot of work, I would say, like to get my pelvic floor back to like to being recovered like after DACS I did a lot of work I and you know in my pregnancy with Pacey my pelvic floor felt like the best I was so mindful I was like I am gonna have the best pelvic floor ever to give birth to this baby everything is gonna be great and if I yeah I just wanted to do everything that I could so I felt like I was in control and that whatever happened I knew that I did the work that was right to me if that makes sense so yeah like I I guess I'd considered it but I wasn't Yeah, like I wasn't, I don't know, I wasn't too sure. You were anxious about it. Yeah. And, you know, in terms of then thinking about like, you know, your next birth experience, like, had you already decided before you got pregnant with Pacey that you would have a home birth or like, what was that journey? Absolutely. Yeah. Well, actually not as soon as I had Dax. The first couple of months after I had Dax, I was like, wow, I had the best birth. That was so good. I was, yeah, I had a lot of friends around me who didn't have, you know, great birth experience. I was like, yeah, man, like I did it. I had such a good birth experience. And it wasn't until later on when I started, you know, becoming a doler and doing a little bit of training. I was like, there's some stuff here. I did have a good birth, but there's some things that weren't good. And there's a lot of elements of my care and how I was treated that weren't good. I did have to unpack that a lot. And from there, I was like, I'm having a home birth. There's no day in my mind. And I didn't want to go. I knew I couldn't go through Belmont, but even if I lived close, I was like, I don't think that I would, I guess just from how my first birth experience went. Like I love what they offer. And it is amazing and it's great. But for me, I was like, I just don't think that's it. So the birth of a private midwife was, yeah, always going to be how I birthed my second baby. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Amazing. And so you get pregnant with Pathy. And at what point are you like booking in the midwife? Like, how did you find, how did you choose your midwife? Yeah, so I think I booked her in like seven weeks. Yeah. I think I had found out quite like early, well I went through this thing, my heart, I, so before we felt pregnant with Paisley, we were like, yeah, we're gonna have a baby next year. So being this year, 2020, and then three days later I found out I was pregnant, always the way. But like, yeah, those like days leading up to actually finding out, like I think back now, I'm like internally, like I knew, like I knew that I was pregnant, but I was like in denial about it. So I was like one day back, Yeah, I won't take a pregnancy test like I'm pregnant, like it's fine the next day of that owner like I need to know you know what I mean? Like it was just this real like mental battle. But yeah, I guess as soon as I did officially know that I was pregnant, if that's how you want to say it, I yeah, touch base with a couple of midwives, I think I inquired with like three. Yeah. And yeah, the one that I ended up choosing, she came to my house just like meet me stayed for like, I think she was here for like an hour or two. Yeah, well, And yeah, I think by seven weeks I had booked her in and I was like, yeah, like this is it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. And apart from obviously your birth, like place being different, had you like thought about ways that you might do things differently this time? Yeah, in terms like of my birth. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if I thought about yeah, things I guess, I wore the pushing stage. Yeah, I was like, no one is telling me what to do whatsoever. Like I was very upfront with my midwife from the get go. I was like, I don't want you to tell me like what I said that is going to be a huge trigger for me. And I need to know that I can do it. Like I know that my body is capable. And if it isn't, if it's the same thing, like that's fine. But I need to know that like, I can do it. Yeah, I was very much like, you know, I don't want you to. tell me what to do, any capacity and she was fine. She was great. She trusts. She was, she very much so trusted me and my intuition in my body. And that was a big thing. Yeah. Yeah. For me. So the pushing stage, that was probably the biggest thing. I was like, I am just that baby is just coming whenever it's ready. Like I don't want to have to physically do anything to like birth my baby. I guess I learned a lot about. you know, the pushing phase and, you know, the feed injection reflex, I'd learned a lot about that post -acts and when I became, I'm sorry, a doula. So I was very much like, yeah, I just wanted that to be very untouched, I guess, and really, I really wanted the space to do that in my own strength. So that was a really big thing that I, yeah, I guess, planned for and prepped for differently, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. and obviously if the people around you thought the birth center was a bit crazy, home birth is another big step. What was, like, did you receive any weird comments or more explicit eye rolls? Yeah. So oddly enough, I feel like I experienced like less and maybe because by then I had become a doula and I'm very open, I guess, on my Instagram with like... how I perceive birth. And I've actually loved that platform for that. Like I can just like voice my opinion. And like a lot of people I know follow me so they know where I stand. So I think, I don't think I got a lot of arrows. I got a lot of like, like you're brave, you know what I mean? Like, I couldn't do that. Like that's so cool that you're doing it, but I couldn't. But I do think by that point people were like, like, this is just same thing. This is just Courtney. Yeah. She's the black sheep. Yeah. Yeah. Like I think. Like my mum, I think she had a couple of little fears. She was like, like, so if anything happens, like what, like what happens? And I was like, yeah, like we're going to have all the things here. Like I've got a midwife, like, yeah, if anything happens, we'll just go to the hospital. Like, yeah. And I think I tried to stay very like relaxed about it to try not to portray anything. I mean, I trust in it 100%. But yeah, I didn't really get a lot of backlash the second time around, which is hard because I was having a home birth. Yeah. But yeah, more like, yeah, good on you. I couldn't do that. Yeah. Part of it. Yeah. Had you already started like attending births or supporting women between Dax and Pacey? Yeah, I had. Yeah. So I've done a couple of births in that kind of time frame, mostly hospital births. But I'd been at a home birth as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I had been. Yeah. And like. Did that kind of just reinforce like your decision to home birth or? Absolutely. Like I will admit I have supported a lot of positive hospital birth or most of the women that I have supported have yeah had unmedicated really low intervention vaginal birth and. And most of their experiences have been really, really good. But there was definitely elements, I was like, well, that's why I'm birthing at home. You know what I mean? It's all the things like the doctor's just been there just in case and like, get out of the space. You know what I mean? There was just little things in each birth that did reiterate why I was birthing where I was. And I guess just in store that trust and clarity even more in me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And did you decline like the similar stuff with Pacey's pregnancy? Yeah, so I did. Yeah, I didn't do any of the testing. Once again, I did less ultrasound with his as well. So with Dax, I did like, you know, all the classic ones like 8, 12, 20. And then I did one at 36 weeks with Dax because my placenta was too low in my 20-week scan. And they were like, you might do a scenario. Yeah, so I just did. I think I did the 12 and the 20 week one. Yep. With Pacey. Yeah. Yeah. Apart from everything else, I declined all my other stuff like gestational diabetes and GBS. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. and how often did you meet with your midwife? gosh, it would have been, I think it was, gosh, trying to think back. I think it would have been like monthly. From the start, maybe every four to six weeks it was initially. And then towards, I'm just trying to think. I think it was four weeks and then towards the end of my pregnancy, it was every two weeks. And then I think I saw her maybe at 37, no 38 weeks. Then I had Pacey at 38 and six. That doesn't sound right. I'm not sure. It was frequent. Did you meet the second midwife during your pregnancy? I did. Yeah. So at 36 weeks, actually, we did like a, yeah, so it must have been weekly from 36 weeks because I met the second midwife at 36 weeks. So we did like a big birth planning type session just going over like my preferences and all the things that I wanted, I guess, in my birth, which wasn't a lot. But yeah, so I met her. Yeah, that 36 week mark. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you said earlier that you had your best friend at the birth of Dax and also with Pacey. So do you want to like give some background to that? Yeah. So I guess my best friend kind of acted as my doula in a sense, like having that second support person. And she was also a huge reason why. I became a doula, like as well, because she was in my birth with Dax and just having that second support person and that female kind of energy and that person that was just there to solely support like us. Like in both my, in my birth with Dax, like there wasn't a lot of chances for my husband to not be with me. So Brie, kind of, or my best friend kind of really acted as that, you know, that middle ground, if he needed something, she'd get something from him. If I needed something, she was there. So. She's a huge reason why I chose to become a doula because I was like, that is so needed in the birth space. I couldn't imagine doing that without her there. So yeah, I also had her there for Pacey as well. And yeah, same thing. She, yeah, just is there in that space just to hold it if I need it to reassure me to offer that, you know, that little bit more emotional support. I feel like the partner is quite physical for me anyways, that my partner is like, squeezing my hips every contraction because that's like my favorite thing when I'm in labor and she's, you know, holding my hand, encouraging me through and supporting me in that kind of sense. And that was really beautiful. I can't imagine doing it without her. Yeah. Yeah. That's so beautiful. That's like so, so special that you have someone that you trust so much with such like a intimate part of your life. but then also can like provide like the continuity as well, like to have, yeah. I did an interview the other day and, she'd had four home births and the primary midwife had been present in some capacity for all four births. And I just thought that's like, yeah, how beautiful because like, my gosh, you, you get to know each other like so well. And if you have like a friend that. you know, has an interest and wants to be there and that you trust like that's, yeah, so beautiful. Did you have anybody else like, so you had would have the two midwives, your partner, was Dax going to be present? Yeah, yeah. So that was a really big thing. I wanted him to be there so bad. Like I just had envisioned like him being there. But I get emotional thinking about it. But I was also like, you know, if not knowing how he was going to be or how the birth was going to go. I had a lot of different, I guess, options and depending what happened, I guess, in the day, if that makes sense. I really wanted him to be there, but I also was like, well, if he's not vibing it, he's not enjoying it. I didn't want to force this thing on him and traumatize him. We know that we carry that through if we look back. And yeah, so like, you know, if it started, if it happened in the day, I had something organized for that. If it happened overnight, I had a little bit of a game plan for that. So I just had a lot of different ideas around what would happen like with him, with the idea, hoping that he would be there. So yeah, I had my midwife, my second midwife, eventually. And then, yeah, my husband, my best friend, and then Dax was there for most of it as well. Yep. Yeah, that's so special. Do you want to walk us through the birth of Pacey then? Yes, I would love to. So yeah, same thing. I got to 38 weeks and that was hard like in the lead up because I was like, am I going to go at the same gestation? Going to 42 weeks. I was like, I was very obviously, if I go to 42 weeks, that's fine. Like it is what it is. I will wait. I very much believe that my babies will come when they're ready. Yeah. that week was really hard I guess leading up to it mentally I was like could be six days could be four weeks could be longer I don't know so that was really hard but I did have this sense that it was going to be be soon then afternoon before I would have been 38 and five and I was getting ready to go to the gym and I was like I'm definitely going to meet my baby soon I just had this sensation like I did with my dog. But this time I was like, cause I would tell people about the story of my dog. They're like, all right. I felt like I was making it up. No, like I'm writing this down. So I have a little note in my phone. It's like 4 .40 on the Friday afternoon. I was like, I'll see you soon, Pacey. Like that's literally just what it said. I was like, I just give you a gift. And he was born at 1pm the next day. Yeah. So I. yeah, went into labor. Labor started around six o 'clock in the morning as Dax woke up. I probably could have been like in very early labor overnight. Like it wasn't a great sleep, but yeah, I wake, I remember Dax waking up and I was like, so pregnant. That's fine. We had this big adventure plan for the day. We're going to like catch the ferry to this park. That was like an hour away from my house. And like, I was like, yeah, cool. Like let's, let's do that. And then, yeah, I felt my first. I guess, yeah, contraction. I was like, I don't know. It could be just a feeling. I've been feeling things all week. I just kept it to myself, didn't tell anyone. I was like, we'll just see what happens. And yeah, we just went along with our morning and I was getting little sensations every now and then. And my husband was like, I'm so keen for today. We're gonna have so much fun. And like really harping dachshunds up. And I'm like, I don't think we're gonna go. And he's like, what? He was like. What do you mean? I was like, I think I'm in labor. Pardon? I was like, yeah, I think I'm in labor. And like, when have you been like 730 by this point? Like it hadn't been a long time, maybe even seven. Yeah. It's been a long time. I was like, yeah, like, I think I'm in labor. And he's like, just like his brains out. All right, let's go like where's the birth pool? Like, let's get everything ready. And I'm like, like, let's just give it a little bit of time. Yeah. But by that. like he was like, no, I'm just going to get that just in case like I think he was that she's obviously in labor. He very much trusted that if I was saying I was in labor, like I probably was. So he just, yeah, started doing, I guess, all the logistical things like getting the birth pool ready and stuff like that. And then I just ended up popping on my tens machine and labored with him and with that. stacks was driving his cars around the birth pool. He had a second little tens machine on his neck and would yeah sit with me sometimes with like our 10 machines like nice and close together. He loved that. Yeah. Yeah, I've got some beautiful videos of like, I was just blowing bubbles like in between contractions and like me pours into like go through my contract my contraction. So that was really cool. Like he was just there. And then I pretty much just labored like that for Yeah, like maybe till around 10 o 'clock. And earlier on we had messaged my mom that, like, I'm in labor. Like, do you think you could just take Dyches out for a couple of hours? But I don't know how long it's going to be. Just so like he wasn't in the house the whole day, not knowing how long things are going to take. Yeah. Yeah. So then I think she rocked up around like 10 30. And by that point I had gotten to the stage where like I needed Alex around to squeeze my hips and I wanted him a bit more present rather than just like. Yeah. doing his own thing or like being with dad. So the timing of it was really well, was really well timed. And I just remember my mum getting here and I was just like in a state once again. I have these emotional states, I'm in labor. And I was like, don't take him for long. Just like so like I just, I think my body and I knew that I was going to have a baby really soon. Yeah. I was just very emotional about the fact that Dax was being taken and I really wanted to be there and I was really scared that he was going to miss it. Yeah. I think I freaked my mama. She's like, is everything okay? Like what's happening here? And we're like, yeah, have you called the midwife? And we're like, yeah, we hadn't, but that's fine. We haven't told her that. Yeah. But yeah, but after that, like I told my midwife, I should say, I guess like, I think I'm in labor as well. Like, this is what's happened. Yeah. And yeah, so I guess about from 1030, I just same thing, like with my 10s machine on with my husband squeezing my hips. And then after that, people started like to filter through which I have no memory of. So that my, my best friend arrived first and then my two midwives arrived and I was just, yeah, in my, in my zone. Like I couldn't tell you when they arrived, what happened in that time. Like I didn't even know where I was in the house. Like I just remember being such. So in my labor brain, like I just had no idea of what was going on around me, which like I love because I'm like, that's how it should be. Like that should be when you're birthing. And then I also had this weird thing in his, in Pater's labor where like every contraction I had to like have a surface like rub my hand on it was super strange. Just like every contraction like that got me through. It was weird. Yeah. Yeah. Anyways. I hadn't gotten to the pool or anything by that point. I was just laboring around the house. And then I somehow, like I said, I have no memory. I don't know how I got there, but I got into this corner where the birth pool was in that room of our living room. And then we have like a kitchen bench, which laps over a bit. And I was in the corner behind the birth pool under the kitchen bench. Honestly, I don't know. It's exactly how you imagine like a wild cat. or something. That's what I was about to say. It's like, you hear of all these, you know, things being that, like, you know, when we're going labor, we hide away and stuff like that, we find a safe space. And I'm like, that's literally like what I did. Yeah. And the Dax came home at that point. And he's like, he'd just been out and seen that some fire truck and got in a bunch of like, random things. And I have this memory of being on all fours in between my like surges of him like showing me this little paper fire truck and he was like so excited and I was like just feeling so elated that he was here like I was like like you're here that's great he's not coming quite yet but like you're here and that's really important then Brie my friend went and put him to sleep and he had a little bit of a nap and then yeah like I said my midwife and stuff arrived and then I was like I think I might have went to the bathroom and then took me like, you know, probably 20 minutes to get back. And at that point, my waters then broke. And then I just instantly felt Pacey drop into my pelvis. I had never experienced that with dogs, obviously, like with the pushing and all that kind of stuff. And I was like, I'm about to have a baby. Like, I was like, this is it. Like, I was like, what that I'll never forget that sensation. Just like my water's breaking and then like it made that audible like pop. And then just feeling like, literally just like, this sudden might drop it like it was absolutely. So yeah, well, I all right, cool. Like, let's get in the pool. And this was like, this might have been like 1145. I think I have like all the time sense from like, all my photos that like people talk. So I think it's like 1145. And I get into the pool and My husband jumps in and same thing just doing hip squeezes like going through my contractions very like in wids I wasn't making a little noise or anything like that had my birth combs throughout each of them and then Gosh, I might have been like Yeah, like an hour later. I felt like what they call that that ring of fire Yeah, and that was like the most intense two minutes of my entire life I had all these thoughts, I was like, you dumb bum, why are you here? Why are you bursting into flame? You know, just that like, what have I done wrong? Like why are you here? Like you've made all the wrong decisions. Because you know, with a contraction or like a surge or whatever you want to call it, like the pain goes away, right? Like you have your contraction and then it goes away and you're like, cool, you get a little bit chance to get ready for the next one. But if you've ever felt that ring of fire, like that burning sensation just like stays there. And I was like, if this stays for here, I don't know how I'm going to do the rest. And that was just in his head. I was just that feeling of like, obviously the top of him crowning. And I was at my midwife, I was like, I can't do it. I just got in that adrenaline rush and I was talking a little bit more, but I was like, no, like I can't do it. And my husband went to squeeze my hips and I was like, no, like don't touch me. But obviously my baby was right there. And then yeah, anyways, that sensation didn't go away, thankfully. And then I just breathe Pacey's head out. Yeah, I didn't push at all. He completely breathed his head out. He came out with a little nougat hand, so his hand was up by his head. We later found out that his head was 37 and a half centimeters, pasta hand, so he like, he decent. Yeah, I just breathed his head out completely. And then... Once his head was born, you know, in very much that state where I didn't want anyone to tell me like what to do. Yeah. So having, you know, really strong contractions and I could literally feel him like rotating like I could. Yeah. Like, I mean, obviously that's a crazy feeling. Yeah. Yeah. Feel him fully rotating. I mean, I'd been a long time. So like between his head being born and his body, it was seven minutes. Yeah. Like he was completely born and. I mean, if you know what it's like in a hospital, they give you like two minutes from like when the head's worn to like everything else to be worn. And I remember in that seven minutes, just like wanting to stand up, like my brain, like I just wanted to stand, but my brain was like, his head's out. If I stand up, it's going to be a shock. You know what I mean? A shock to get him out of the water straight away. So it's like, no, I don't stand, don't stand. As soon as I stood, his body like... body was born. It was obviously my intuition in my body telling me to stand the heck up. But yeah, he was born completely fine. He, yeah, and that was it. He was here. My husband was behind me the whole time, watched him rotate, was there as he was born. He was brought up underneath my legs and straight onto my chest. Yeah. So beautiful. Did you tear? No, I didn't tear. I had a tiny little hairline graze on the side of my labia where his hand was. But it didn't need to be. I could stitch it, but like honestly, there's not really any point. And I was like, well, I don't want to be taken out of this space and kind of not that a tear and a stitch is a medical thing. I was like, I just don't feel like I need it. Yeah. So yeah, that was it. Yeah. that's so beautiful. I just like... I'm so confused still about why they did the E. p .s. otomy. Like that's just. Well, yeah, I think, yeah. That's like I said, I think if I was given the time to recruit, like, like without it, but it was just like, you know, I just I had to reach the timeline. What I'd overstayed the timeline. It's two hours there. Pushing if anything over that you're meant to get transferred or things are meant to happen. So yeah, like I, my body didn't need it. You know what I mean? Like, you know, first birth is always that little bit different. Like it hasn't done it before. Like, so, yeah, this definitely do feel different, but like, there's nothing to say that my body couldn't have done it the first time. I mean, like I birthed Pacey, like without any kind of tear or whatsoever the second time around. Like, so I definitely like, I think, I can't think about it too much. I'm like, I wish I could change that. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Like Ditto, Ditto. Yeah. Like had two home births and similar sort of story, I guess. And that, yeah, after the first one, I was like, I had a home birth. I'm like amazing, you know, like go me. And it wasn't until like later, well, especially like having like Frankie's birth. And it's just so different. It's so different. I do feel like your first birth, even if it's not like the most amazing experience, it teaches you a lot and it paves the way for you second at least. I would have done, yeah, like I wouldn't have had the birth that I had with Pacey if I didn't have the birth that I had with Dad. I wouldn't have been so hard and heavy on nobody telling me what to do in that pushing stage. It would have been very different. So I am grateful for sure. Like obviously like, I do kind of grieve the fact that I didn't get to have that really beautiful, elated birth with Max and that does suck in all honesty, but I'm also like, he paved the way for who I am, not only as a mother, but as a daughter and with having birthed my second as well. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What was your post, what has your postpartum been like with Pacey? It's been... Yeah, it's been really beautiful. I was really the first the first month I was I'm just resting. Yeah, amazing. I'm on so like I mentioned with Dax I, I didn't rest like I was resting because I was doing so much less than I was. Yeah, pre postpartum. You know what I mean? So I thought I was resting but I had like been taking the dog for a walk by like postpartum. out for birthday lunches. We've been out to do all this stuff. Just silly things. So with Pacy and obviously like with the prolapse and all that kind of stuff, I was like, I want to do everything that I can to protect my body and to give it time to heal and to recover. So yeah, my plan was to do the, yeah, like the, the five, five, five rule. So five in bed, five near bed. So I ended up, yeah, doing it pretty much for the whole month. So I just kind of, spent the whole month in bed just resting. I got like a postpartum meal service. I got food delivered to me. We did a meal train. My husband ended up getting a month off because I birthed two weeks before school holidays. So it just timed out perfectly. He just didn't want me to be timed at all. So he had a whole month off here. And he was just on DAC study. It was just like, we're DACs pretty much that whole month. then just really enabled me to have that space to rest, to transition into motherhood that second time around. And yeah, it's like the best thing I always think about, like, man, that month was like the actual best. Yeah. It was hard. Like I will say some days are really mentally hard. Like, you know, those days post -homeland, I feel good. Yeah, I feel a little bit of something. I feel pretty good. But like, learning from doctors, like I would feel good. And then I would go for a walk carrying my child like on my chest and then like two days later I would be you know back to being sleep deprived, getting mass symptoms, having really bad prolapse symptoms. So I learned a lot from that and I was just like you know I feel good I can do a little bit of something I'll go sit out in the backyard and we'll get a little bit of sun but I really tried to keep it really minimal and that was like that was the best like I look back and that was like that was the best month just like taking it slow and slowly changing into. our new life and we didn't have a lot of visitors or anything like that. So it was really just like us for a whole month, essentially. Yeah. Yeah. That's so beautiful. And what's like, obviously boy moms, what's and our sons are sort of similar. Murphy is going to be four this month and Frankie was born in June. So he's like, I would keep forgetting like nine or 10 months now. But like for you, what is adjusting to boy mom life with two boys being like? I honestly, I do love being a boy mom. Like I just envision myself being a boy mom. Like I, I'm not very like girly. So I just can't imagine having a girl. Like obviously like, right. But like I love, I do love being a boy mom, but yeah, the transition was pretty good. That was probably one of the biggest things I was. worried about me and Dax were very well we co -starred together you know like I said we were 36 weeks pregnant I breastfed him till he was till I was 20 weeks pregnant he was self -weaned. We just did like everything together you know what I mean like we were so so close he only went to family daycare like once or twice a week so we just it was just us and I he was very much like I don't hate the word mommy boys but mommy's boy but we were just very close like we this really beautiful relationship. So I was really worried that he wouldn't, I guess, understand pregnancy. He just had no concept of the idea of being pregnant, like, just no idea like whatsoever. So yeah, I was worried how that would go. But we transitioned really well. He ended up being there for the birth of Pacey, actually, I didn't even say that. He woke up. as Pacey's head was born, a friend went and got him and he came out and he watched Pacey be born. Which I think really helped with the transition like after that baby belly like it all kind of linked up. Like I can't imagine what it would have been like if he woke up from a nap and there was like a whole nother human here. It would have been like, yeah, like very like what the heck type. So that just worked out beautifully and having there was like, just so cool. I have all these photos of like, me like with my presenter attached and Pacey like breastfeeding and like Dax just sitting next to me like in the nude eating like his lollies and like his little snacks and stuff and like so yeah like him being there was like the best thing and I do think that really helped his transition in saying that there definitely were some very chaotic moments in that first month just like testing the boundaries you know what I mean like doing things that he wouldn't usually he just needed to see like where he I guess fitted in like him sitting at the end of the bed, like he just got food out of the cupboard just sitting there just got a reach for me. Just like little things like knocking, I don't know, knocking plants over that had been there for his whole entire life. Like, you wouldn't do that usually, but he was just catching the boundaries and that's fine. But like now like, yeah, Pacey is Dax's favorite person. There's no doubt about that. Like they're like little best friends already. Like the first thing, Dax wants to do when Pacey wakes up is like running, give him a cuddle. They're very, he does, he does love him a lot. And that's been really nice. We haven't had any like, no, no, like the hitting or like that kind of stuff. Or like that's my mum, but it's been, yeah, it's been really good. Yeah. That's so beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing your stories. Thank you so much for having me. Of course. Do you have anything that we missed or that you'd like to add or? Gosh, I don't think so. I feel like afterwards I've been like, I shouldn't have said this. Yeah, I think, I guess like one other thing I did have like a and I don't like it's not. I do think that this is one of the things I love about home birth. It's like it you're not bound by, you know, medical things. It's very much based on like who you are and like how things have gone. Like it's very much bigger picture, which is my opinion. So after Pacy, I had a larger blood loss. I lost, I mean, they never really know, but like 750 to like 800 mils of blood. And in a hospital, like anything over 500 is classified as a postpartum hemorrhage. And I guess, yeah, after I had Pacy, like everything was fine. My stats were fine, my blood pressure was fine, I was feeling fine, I was able to go to the bathroom, I was able to walk, all that kind of stuff. so like we didn't need to do anything. We'll just, I would just monitor it and see how you feel like over the next couple of days. But like that is something that I love at home birth because if I was in a different setting, whether it would be a center or a hospital, like that would have been very different if I had a 500, like over 500 mil like lead to a lot of loss of blood. So even like with patients had been born and his body not been born for after seven minutes, you know what I mean? Like, It just gives you the time and the space and with the time and the space to consider the bigger picture and how the woman and the baby like actually intervening just because on paper it's meant to be something. So I do like, you know, I do love that about home birth. And I think that just makes it so individual and so I almost like safer because there's not interventions just happening for the sake of it. Yeah, because somebody gets, cause it's all guessing. There's not like, like when you're learning to be a student midwife, you are literally like in labs, like with red food coloring stuff, guessing like the amounts of stuff. And yeah, when it's like such a silly thing as like, well, I guess it to be 500 mils, like the impact that that can have on somebody in such a rigid system is like pretty significant. So. Yeah, yeah, I'm listening to I don't know what podcast it was. But like, yeah, like we all, we all deal with blood loss differently. Someone could have a 500 me less than 500 mil loss of blood loss and not be okay. Yeah. Someone could have over a liter and really fine like, and like for me, like, I mean, I was a little bit like pale. And like, that was way the biggest, like symptom like of the blood loss like for me, but like, within like a day or two, like I was, complete, not, let's not say back to myself, because I just had a baby, but like those symptoms of that loss were completely fine and I was healthy and everything like was well for me. Yeah. I feel that we must have listened to the same podcast because I have the exact same memory from recent times. Cool. Thank you. Thank you so, so much, Courtney. Thanks so much for having me.