Episode 33 on the 22nd...fitting for a twin freebirth story, and not just any story - because we know these are special...but Georgia shares how she only found out she was having twins as Freddy was being born!
Georgia talks us through her first birth with daughter 'Bo' and the immense trauma she experienced. It is an example of how denying women options based on 'low risk' 'high risk' can trigger a cascade of events that ultimately end in trauma and have lasting consequences on future experiences. Based purely on appearance, she was diagnosed with gestational diabetes. Disgraceful and hugely problematic.
Georgia, determinded to not place her 'care' in the hands of people who seemingly did not 'care', chose to have a wild pregnancy and freebirth her next baby...or BABIES!
The first part of the episode discusses the traumatic birth story.
If you're not in a place to listen to this - the WILD PREGNANCY/FREEBIRTH STORY BEGINS AT approx: 1 hour 11 mins
Links to resources:
Episode 33 on the 22nd...fitting for a twin freebirth story, and not just any story - because we know these are special...but Georgia shares how she only found out she was having twins as Freddy was being born!
Georgia talks us through her first birth with daughter 'Bo' and the immense trauma she experienced. It is an example of how denying women options based on 'low risk' 'high risk' can trigger a cascade of events that ultimately end in trauma and have lasting consequences on future experiences. Based purely on appearance, she was diagnosed with gestational diabetes. Disgraceful and hugely problematic.
Georgia, determinded to not place her 'care' in the hands of people who seemingly did not 'care', chose to have a wild pregnancy and freebirth her next baby...or BABIES!
The first part of the episode discusses the traumatic birth story.
If you're not in a place to listen to this - the WILD PREGNANCY/FREEBIRTH STORY BEGINS AT approx: 1 hour 11 mins
Links to resources:
You're listening to Birthing at Home, a podcast. I'm Elsie, your host. I recorded this episode on unceded Wurundjeri land in Nam, Melbourne, Australia, where Aboriginal peoples had been birthing at home on country for thousands of years prior to the British invasion. They are the original storytellers. If you want to learn more about me, the podcast or how I can support you in achieving your home birth, be sure to check out my Instagram at birthingathome.com. underscore a podcast. Welcome to episode 33 and whoa, this is a great episode. The incredible Georgia from Tasmania shares how growing up she didn't have any interest in pregnancy or children. Through learning more about the power and the history of birth though, this changed. Today, Georgia shares her deeply traumatic birth with her daughter, Bo, and how discrimination against her and her weight significantly impacted her birth experience. For her next pregnancy, she chose to not outsource and instead alongside a lot of learning and unlearning, she followed her own instincts. Little did she know that she would be having twin boys at home unassisted. A surprise twin free birth that will have you smiling in awe. A truly incredible story that demonstrates the absolute power of women. I know you'll love this episode, so please rate or review it on Apple podcasts or Spotify. or send me a message. Stories like these don't come around very often and they are incredibly important to share. So women around the world can be inspired and know that there is more than one option. Georgia's first birth was very traumatic. And if you find this triggering, I have included the timestamp in the description of where her wild pregnancy and free birth story begins. Enjoy. Welcome Georgia to Birthing at Home, a podcast. Hi, how are you doing? I'm so excited. It always feels so funny because listeners, we do catch up before we record, but for the flow, it just makes more sense to welcome you. So welcome, Georgia. I'm so excited to talk to you. I have a theatre degree, so it probably felt really natural. Yeah, there you go. I'm so excited to talk to you today, Georgia, as I was just saying, when I reached out to see if you would share your story with me on the podcast, I had no idea that it was actually a twin free birth that you had. And so I'm just like so grateful. And you've your boys are only like four weeks old, which is even more amazing. So you want to start off by introducing yourself that. like who you are, who's in your family and where you live? Yeah, so I'm Georgia, based in Tasmania and it's me and my partner Zev and I've got a three -year -old daughter Bo and yeah, now the boys. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. So I'm a family photographer and yeah, just other than that, just very normal and just, um, just a person living in the world. Yeah. Just a regular old person. Um, that's very cool. And, um, something I love to ask, so you had, um, your first, uh, your daughter in a hospital setting. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. And it wasn't my first choice either. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, um, you know, growing up and like pre pregnancy and all of that, had you known about home birth or free birth, that kind of thing? Not really. Um, yeah, well, birth was actually, and just pregnancy and being a mom in general was not on my radar. Um, I actually thought that I would never have kids. It didn't interest me. I've never been a particularly maternal person. It was just, yeah, so growing up, I never had any interest really. And actually in my early twenties, when some of my friends started becoming pregnant and becoming moms, I remember saying to one of my friends when she was pregnant that I really don't understand it. It's like having a... a parasite inside you. It's like a foreign object that must be so weird. And birth to me was everything I'd seen in movies. It was just this big, scary, dramatic thing that I just didn't understand why anyone would want to go through it. And it wasn't until about 2019, I actually listened to a podcast where Jane Collins Hardwick was the guest. And she was talking about her time. as a midwife in, I think in the seventies or the eighties and how motherhood and maternity had been taken by the patriarchy essentially. She was sort of breaking down how something that was very natural to women had been taken out of our hands and pathologized and turned into this big scary thing. And that really was the light bulb moment for me. I'd never seen it from that point of view and I couldn't believe that, like how easy it was to fall victim to the brainwashing, essentially. Yeah. So yeah, that was the big turning point for me where I realized like, it's not this, it's not a parasite. It's not a freaky thing. It's not outlandish to be pregnant. It's totally natural. And I've been convinced that it's like a... machinery. A disease. A disease, yeah. That it's foreign. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that was the big turning point in my thinking. So by the time I did get pregnant in 2020, I already knew that I wanted a private midwife and because I knew that... Like I've always had a strong sense of belief in my own body and I've worked through a lot of self -esteem issues and body image issues and a big follower of Health at Every Size. So I'd done all this work before becoming pregnant. So by the time I was pregnant, I had the utmost faith in my body and its abilities. Didn't have any interest in going to the hospital because I wasn't sick. Yeah, but I was so I met with the local Private midwife there's only one birth center where I am And Yeah met with them and Means they've had an interview with them. I was still very early in my first pregnancy. I think I was like 14 weeks or something and She gave this big spiel about how they're the very women led and they believe in our body's ability to birth and that they trust women's bodies and trust your intuition. And, you know, everything was like aligning. I'm like, yes, yes, yes, this is, this is me. The next day they gave me a call and said they wouldn't be able to support me because of my BMI and that I'd have to go through the hospital, but that they could still be my primary care. If I wanted, I'd just have to give birth in the hospital and go through the obstetricians as well. And it just broke my heart. Like, you know, from the very start, like I actually cried all day after I got that text. Yeah. Um, yeah, it was so upsetting because like they, they convinced me that they believed in my body too. And then basically said, you're too fat. Sorry. And yeah, they never weighed me. Oh my gosh. I know. Like it was just a guess. I hadn't weighed myself in five years and I told them that so they were basing this off literally just looking at me. Yeah, well, I mean, that's I listened to something maybe on the birthing instincts podcast. And it was talking about how like in healthcare, there's a very big push. And as a nurse, I can see how helpful it is, but for electronic medical records and electronic, you know, documentation and, you know, it can be programmed into these platforms that to get to the next page, you must enter something. And that, you know, Yeah, especially in healthcare. There's such a big focus on BMI. I remember when I went to my midwife and I was a similar thing. I was like, I don't weigh myself. I have full it. I don't know. I don't know. And she was like, well guess. And I was like, well, I don't know. But yeah, they have to have like give a number that but that's yeah, that's ridiculous. And I am that's so discriminatory. It is, yeah. And it's not evidence -based and that annoyed me at the time because I knew what wasn't evidence -based and they'd told me that they believed in evidence -based practice. So, I mean, it was a blessing in disguise really because I, it was better to find out that they weren't a good fit. So, yeah. But basically that made me go, okay, well, they don't believe I can do it. So I'm not going to pay $6 ,000 to have someone be my primary carer who doesn't even have faith in my body's abilities. So I'll just go with a line. That was basically my mentality. I figured if I was the only one that trusted my body, well, then that was all I needed. But then I continued to go through the hospital system. where nobody moved in my body and I guess I thought that that wouldn't matter and that was a mistake. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you feel like, I imagine that... Yeah, like perhaps you have in your head that like you're just another woman, so they're not really going to like give you much attention anyway. So you can just like rock on about and like do like, you know, go through as you as you plan, I guess. But for a system that, you know, doesn't provide individualised care, it sure does get involved in individual matters an awful lot. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, yeah. And so what was your pregnancy then like in that kind of modular care? Well, I had a healthy pregnancy. I didn't have any high blood pressure or complications, but they tried to find them at every possible opportunity. They just couldn't believe that. that a fat person could have a healthy pregnancy basically. So at first my GP wanted me to do, my GP wanted me to do the, what do you call it? The glucose test. And I'd already read up about it and was not interested. Didn't make any sense to me to, to like down sugar on an empty stomach while pregnant. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So I agreed to a HBA1C instead. Because you know, first pregnancy, I was still in the habit of compromising, I guess. I didn't realise I was doing it at the time. But yeah, people pleasing was very much in full swing. So everything was a compromise. I didn't realise I could just say no full stop. Um, so yeah, did the HPA1C and that came back. I think my fasting sugar was a 5 .1 and my GP said that that was all good because it had to be under 5 .5. So I was in the clear, but then at about 24 weeks at a hospital appointment, um, the doctor wanted me to do the glucose test again, because for some reason fat people have to do it multiple times. Um, and I said, they made you do, did they make you do the, the, so they, so you did the HBA one C and then they asked you to do the full test there with the drinks and everything. Yeah. They wanted me to do it again. And I said, no, but that I'd be happy to, uh, well, not happy to, but I was compromising again. So I said that I would be willing to take a blood glucose monitor home and, uh, track my sugar levels for a couple of weeks. So she called the diabetes clinic to organize getting me a monitor and the woman on the phone was like, her fasting sugar is 5 .1. She should have already been diagnosed. It's supposed to be under 5 .0. So on the spot I was diagnosed. What? So they didn't, in the end they didn't even make you do it again because they just gave you a diagnosis. Yep. Just on the spot based on the HbA1c from a while ago. Oh my god. Because of a 0 .1 level difference. What? Yeah, ridiculous. So yeah, I had like, I really fought with the diabetes clinic a lot because I didn't believe that I had gestational diabetes at all. Yeah. And my food levels were always good. Like they always came back down. within whatever the numbers were after eating. So it was only my fasting sugars that were an issue and they were only ever 0 .1 or 0.2 over. And I was constantly emailing the woman in charge there with like just bombarding her with questions because none of it made any sense to me. I didn't understand and to this day, didn't understand why at my hospital I have to be under 5 .0, but I've heard of other hospitals within Australia where you only have to be under 5 .5 or even 6 .0. And her answer to that was that it's based, I think it was something about it being based on resources. So because they have something about how If you live in a really big city with a big population, they don't have as many resources to treat a whole ton of women with gestational diabetes. So they make the limits higher, like 5 .5, so that they can keep control on how many women are coming through. But because in my area, they're well-resourced, they're able to set the better limit of 5 .0 and take more people on. But to me, that reads as they're able to... falsely diagnose more women based on an arbitrary number so that they can get more funding for the diabetes clinic. It's just so corrupt, right? It's so corrupt. It was such a money trail thing. Yeah. And also I said to her several times, I really think my fasting levels are connected to my sleep. I think I have sleep apnea. I've noticed that on The nights that I have better quality sleep, my numbers are under. And she said that I have nothing to do with sleep. I've since been diagnosed with sleep apnea and I'm on a CPAP machine. I actually had really, really severe sleep apnea. So I do think that it was impacting. Anyway, that's just a whole side thing on GED. Like, what did that kind of trigger for, like in your case, having that diagnosis? Like, did that mean more appointments or did they, did you find that they treated you worse or how did you experience it? Yeah, it was more appointments. So now I had to go to the diabetes clinic to have like a lesson on what to eat that's good for blood sugar. Cause you know, fat people don't know how to eat healthy. Um, and more antenatal appointments, um, I was already labeled high risk because of my weight. Um, but now it was like, see, we told you you're high risk. Um, so they had that confirmation they wanted and, um, I had to do, uh, more scans cause they wanted to do the growth scans. Yeah. And. Pretty much at every turn, every time they presented me with something like the extra growth scans, I was always going away and doing my own research and coming back to them with all these questions and they never had satisfactory answers. Aside from all the noise and all the labels from them, I felt fine. I was having a great pregnancy. I knew that all was well. I had a lot of pelvic pain and laxity in my pelvis. Everything I read said that that was honestly helpful for the birth anyway because all the ligaments need to separate. So I wasn't concerned about it. It was uncomfortable, but pregnancy is uncomfortable. I didn't have any concerns. But all... all the doctors did just by looking at me. They just couldn't believe that there couldn't be something wrong with me. Yeah, yeah. That's like atrocious, absolutely atrocious. And so what do you want to walk us through the birth experience then or the lead up and birth experience? Yeah, so, oh, um, around actually before you do that, did you do any like any particular education apart from the stupid nutrition diabetes thing? Did you do any birth preparation kind of stuff in this pregnancy? I had like a birth ball that I sat on a lot because everything online said it's good to sit on those. I did some spinning babies. My little sister was actually pregnant at the same time and she was going through the private midwife. Okay. So I got a lot of holistic info passed on through her. And yeah, we were very much aligned. So she was having the pregnancy journey that I wanted and the only difference was my weight. So, Yeah, doing lots of research. I don't really remember. I've read Iname Gaskin's book and I can't remember what it's called. The Biggie of Hers. Yeah, the Childbirth Guide to Iname Gaskin's Guide to Childbirth, I think it is. Yeah. So yeah, I was reading a lot of stuff that was... home birth leaning and I don't think I'd heard the term physiological birth at the time, but there was a lot of physiological birth stuff in there and I was just always like, yes, yes, that's how it should be. Let nature run its course. And at some point during the pregnancy, I did hear about the concept of free birth. But I was still in that mindset of, But if things go wrong, what would you do? Like, how could you risk, you know, what would you even do if something happened? It can be dangerous sometimes. And that just seems too outlandish and crazy to me. Like, so, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I didn't even look into it. It was so foreign to me, even though like in hindsight, it's, it's everything I wanted. Yeah. Yeah. And to, I want to know now that you free birth twins like, oh my gosh, like what a different mindset, you know, because this is in 2020, 2020 or 2021? 2020, yeah. A lot of growth in a few years time. Yeah, that's incredible. What's your daughter's name, sorry? Bo. So it's like Bo Peep. Yeah, cute. And Yeah. Okay. So do you want to run us through the birth of Bowie then? Yeah. So, um, I think it was around 40 weeks or, you know, the around 38 weeks or so they started hassling me about induction because they just love inductions and I had GD so I was high risk. Um, and I kept saying, no, no, like everything's fine. I feel fine. I want her to come in her own time. Um, And I think it was at an appointment, I think it was 40 weeks, it could have been 39. I said no again to an induction. And the doctor that I had that day, and I should mention as well, I had different doctors throughout the antenatal care. I probably saw every OB that worked in that hospital. I never saw anyone consistently. And I only met with the midwives twice, I think. Um, yeah. So I was, I was just a, a person described on a piece of paper to them. They had no idea about me. Yeah. Um, as a person, I was just, you know, number whatever on the call sheet. Like, yeah, it could have been a completely made up story. They, and they wouldn't even know. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Um, but yeah. So the doctor I had that day said, oh, um, shall we do a really quick ultrasound just to check that everything's okay? And again, people please and me compromising me. I didn't need an ultrasound. I knew everything was fine, but I figure what's the harm like they want to know, I'll let them know. So we went in and she did a quick ultrasound. She went away for a little bit. And when she came back, she, it was like, she was so grave and like sat down and gave me the bad news that I had low fluid and it's an emergency and in her opinion we should do an induction immediately. And I was like, okay, well, what do you mean like tomorrow? Do you want to schedule it for tomorrow? And she was like, no, like right now. And I was freaking out but. Luckily, some of my research sort of kicked into gear and I was like, well, well, hold up. You're allowed to say no and that you want to do some more research and you're allowed to hit the brakes here. So I did that and I said, I want to call my partner and discuss it. And yeah, and she was like, not really happy about it acting as if that any delays too much delay. And, uh, yeah, she made me go down and have another ultrasound with a proper technician just to double check because she's not a technician. So I did that. Yeah. And then was on the phone with my partner outside the hospital, just freaking out and crying. And I'm like, I don't know what to do. Like they told me this is an emergency and I don't know anything about low fluid. Like I don't, I don't know what's happening. Um, yeah. So went home that night and just, I was online scrolling and doing as much research as I could do. And there's not tons of research on low fluid, like not unbiased evidence -based research. So it was really tricky to like weigh up how big of an issue this really was. But my partner did say at the time, Well, it can't be that much of an emergency or she would have recommended a C -section. So that really grounded me. And I was like, oh yeah, like there's no way they would try for an induction if it was like a genuine emergency. If my baby could die within the next hour, they're not going to be messing about with the inductions. So that calmed me down a bit and I knew I had more time. The research I did said that maternal hydration can be an impacting factor. And I hadn't had any water before those scans that day. Because it was a morning appointment, I'd had a coffee and I forgot to bring my drink bottle to the appointment. So I hadn't had any water. And it also said that fluid levels can drop at the end of pregnancy anyway. So after reading that, I'd... and tuning back into my intuition, I was just like, I don't know, I feel fine. My baby's telling me that everything's fine. But that little seed that they'd planted in my head, it's like a weed. You can keep ripping the weeds out, but they just keep coming back. So yeah, we had to go in, well, we didn't have to, but... Compromise, I was just compromising. So they told me they wanted me to come in for daily CTGs. So we would go into the hospital every evening. This is in 2020 when you still have to wear masks. My partner wasn't allowed in there with me. Oh my gosh, so true. So the first night they said, oh, sorry, your partner can't come in. You have to do the CTG line. And I went along with that. At the end of the CTG or while I was strapped in, whichever OB was on the ward that day came in and gave me the big dead baby talk. And we really think you should have an induction and you know, things can change in just an instant and blah, blah, blah. And after that, I was like, I'm not doing this alone because they're, they're cornering me. They're waiting until the conference is not there so that they can try to scare me into doing what they want. So the next day they made us sit down with another OB and this woman... She was a real piece of work. Like I've said, I was in people -pleaser mode. I'm naturally a very... What's the right word? Like, middle ground sort of person. I'm not antagonistic. I don't like conflict. So usually I can talk my way around people and keep a situation calm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She just had a massive ego on her. Yeah. So yeah, we went in. I had questions about the low fluid and wanted I was trying to ask her like, well, I've read this, this and this. What say you to that? Yeah. She was just taking it all very personally and was like, Oh, what website are you reading that on? Well, I've only done eight years of medical training, but I guess they know better. Oh, actually. Oh my gosh. Yeah. talking about the stillbirths that she's witnessed and acting as if I don't know a thing. So she was telling you this? Yeah, yeah, basically treating me like I was being so flippant about the whole thing. And eventually she stormed out. And then I had to go in and do the CTG and I'm pretty sure I said to them I wasn't doing it unless my partner could come in that time. And they weren't happy about it, but in the end they caved. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And while we were in there, so when I'd had that run in with the OB, she'd had like an assistant or a student in there with her. And when we went in to do the CTG, the student or whatever she was came around and she'd printed off some information for us. She was like, I... that doctors, she's just a little bit touchy because she's seen things go wrong and she really is just trying to help. I know that her attitude probably didn't come across well. Anyway, here's some research for you. And when I read the research at home later, it directly contradicted what the OB had been telling me. She'd been trying to say that maternal hydration wasn't an impacting factor and what I'd read was wrong. And then this assistant of hers had printed me off research that literally said maternal hydration is a factor. Oh my gosh. It was just infuriating. What the heck? Yeah. Yeah. So we continued to go in with these daily CTGs and meanwhile, I'd asked my sister if she could put me in contact with her private midwife. Because by then she'd had her baby and the private midwife had moved interstate. Oh, OK. Yeah. So we were waiting a little while for her to get back to us. And when she did, she was super encouraging. She said, this isn't an emergency. Trust your gut. Stop going in for these CTGs because they're just making you anxious. And if you look into CTGs, they're not very reliable anyway. basically just encouraged me to trust myself and to just wait because that's what I was being called to do. So I told the hospital the next time we went in for a CTG I said this is the last we're not coming in after this because every day and we went in for like a week and every day all that was showing was that my baby was fine. That's like crazy. It was hectic. Oh my gosh. But that's totally disregarding the psychological impact. Like I cannot believe, I mean, I can, but also it's still shocking to me that someone with such power would be telling you at 38 or however many weeks that your baby could die of seeing lots of stillbirths and just like giving you all of these traumatic things. Like it's totally disregarding. the psychological impact of the words that she's speaking because like it's not just in that moment that you're thinking about that you're going home and thinking about, well, what if my baby dies, you know, and that like, just constantly. It was the most anxious three weeks of my life. Yeah. Because by then I think I would have been over 41 weeks. So they're every day getting more stressed because now I'm overdue. So I'm high risk because of my weight. I've got GED and now I'm overdue. And they were just like biting their nails with fear pretty much. So yeah, the last time we went in, another doctor came around to give me the dead baby talk. It's just part of their routine, I suppose. It happened every day. And... I said to her, like, I don't know what to tell you. My baby is telling me she's fine. And I've got nothing else for you. She's telling me she's fine and that I just have to wait. And this doctor made me sign a waiver saying I was going against medical advice, which I remember we left that appointment and I just burst into tears because they put so much doubting, like it's, it's hard to explain. I still had so much faith whenever I tuned in to my intuition, but they were, they were throwing me off my intuition just back and forth. So I'd leave these appointments just reeling and thinking, what if I am just a big idiot? Yeah. Yeah. It starts. Yeah, I've talked about this before, but somebody told me by quite a few episodes ago that, You know, that first doubt you could consider the first doubt in yourself in your body as being the pregnancy test, you know, because you need something to confirm that you're pregnant. And it's like, yeah, they chip away, chip, chip, chip, where you down where you down and you, you, like, it's, yeah, two, two steps forward, one step back, kind of like you're always. having to fight and reevaluate your own values and your own knowledge about your body and exhausting, so exhausting. Yeah, tell me about it. Yeah. Yeah. So every day after that, it was just, you know, just waiting and stressing and just hoping any sign of labor would happen. just so that I could be free of this anxiety. And every time I didn't have movements for a little while, I was freaking out and like jostling my belly, like, please move baby, please don't let them be right. And I didn't have any of these doubts before that. Yeah, one of my biggest regrets in that whole pregnancy and birth is that I went in for that ultrasound that I knew I didn't need because... I knew I was fine before I walked in there and I didn't know I was fine when I walked out. And that's all it takes. Like that taught me a big lesson in there were just some things that you really don't need to know. Because I didn't need to know that I had low fluid. I felt fine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And if baby's movements and everything are good then... Yeah. That's all you need. Yeah. That's all you need. Yeah. I hadn't had any spotting. I hadn't, I hadn't had any concern and symptoms. Like I felt fine. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but yeah, so I ended up going to 43 weeks and I do think all the stress stalled things. Um, but you know, also first time mum, so it would have been long anyway. but I don't think it would have been that long. And yeah, so the day of the layover, it was a Monday. I just felt different when I got up that morning. I just had like a feeling that today might be the day. Later in the afternoon, I went and had a nap. And when I woke up, I was in the kitchen making a coffee or something and had my first contraction. And... I knew that was the beginning. So that was exciting. I was like, finally, finally things are starting. Yeah. Those three weeks were the longest year of my life. Yeah. Absolutely. So yeah, things started off and I think the contractions were... slow initially, they were like half an hour apart and not too intense or anything. We had takeaway that night and watched Brooklyn Nine -Nine. And eventually we tried going to bed because I think it was like midnight and we figured I should try and have some rest. But every 20 minutes I was waking up to these contractions and I couldn't really lay on my side or my back or anything. I had to be like on my hands and knees or upright. Um, so I really, I didn't feel like I got any rests that night. I ended up getting up at like six or seven AM because I just, it was exhausting me. Um, and then continued labor all through the next day and things were still pretty slow. Sometimes contractions would be 15 or 20 minutes apart and then they'd maybe slow down to like an hour apart. Um, not consistent. Um, some of them, I think at that point they were getting, they were pretty painful, um, at times. And I was still mostly having to just get up onto my hands and knees every single time. Um, and went right through to that night. And I think we were watching TV again. I was sitting on my birth ball and around 11. 10 p .m. maybe things started to feel more like I was getting into that transition space. I hadn't really done any research on physiological birth during that pregnancy, so I didn't really know about transition. I didn't know a lot about like labor in general. That was one thing I hadn't done any research on. You do so much research on pregnancy, but you sort of forget about the big event. Sometimes like a first time mum. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's odd that. But yeah, so I was definitely feeling more spaced out and I laid on the toilet for a little bit and I was having to stand up by then for every contraction. So yeah, and they were about two minutes apart and we'd put it off like we knew to put off as long as possible going to the hospital. Cause one of the midwives had told us to do that. You know, it's bad when the midwives are telling you to wait until the last minute because they know you're going to be interfered with. Um, yes. Um, anyway, so yeah. Yeah, there's no, there's no point even trying to understand the logic because it's just, there's so many. things that happen in the maternity system where like, it just simply just does not make sense. Like even the fact that they, um, you know, often tell women to, you know, stay at, stay at home, um, for as long as you can, blah, blah, blah. Nobody ever questions what, like, why? Like it's because you feel safe in your home. Like they don't want women that are in early labor in the hospital. Well, that's it. I was going to say it's all sweet because- It's like a waste of resources for them. Yeah. It's inconvenient to them. Yeah. Yeah. But I do think it's also because they know you have better chances of not having interventions if you can just come in and have the baby straight away. So, yeah, we thought we'd held off as long as humanly possible. Contractions were like two minutes apart. Yeah. You know, hindsight is... is such a salty thing because I look back and I know if I'd just stayed home another couple of hours, I could have had her at home because, and I'm going to try not to cry for the whole next chunk because story gets dark. Yeah. It was not a pleasant birth. So yeah, we got in the car and went to the hospital. The whole walking and I'm having to stop every few steps for a contraction. we got up to the suite and it was like midnight and you have to stop and sign in on the sign in sheet between contractions, the absurdity. Did you have to do like a COVID test or like temperature kind of stuff? No, thankfully. I think because by then it was February of 2021. So things had chilled a little bit. Yeah. So yeah, and they got us into our labor room. And I remember thinking, because we'd seen a couple of the labor rooms when we'd done our CTGs, and most of them were quite like homely and comfy. And this room was very not that. It was like, it felt like a hospital room. And it had all like the emergency gear on the walls and stuff. Yeah. and it didn't have like any of the light dimmers and things like that. Like it just felt like an emergency room. So we got in, we sat down and just again, like the hindsight of it, we had to sit down and like chat to the doctor and the midwife first while I'm having contractions every couple of minutes. And I tried to hand them my birth plan. I was like, oh, here's my birth plan. And neither of them took it. And it was really weird. I like just held my hand out for a second and then just sort of put it down because nobody was taking it. Um, very weird way to start things off. Yeah. And it was like, like a business negotiation. They immediately were like, well, we want you to put on the CTG. And I was like, I don't want to do that because I want to be able to move around freely. But I will compromise with you. You can use the Doppler intermittently, even though I didn't need anything to tell me that I was fine. I knew I was fine. That was for them. It was all for them, yeah. They said they wanted me hooked up to an IV. I said, I don't want that. I've got my water bottle here. I'm fine. I will compromise with you and put in an IV lock, even though I don't want one. But I was adamant that I wanted to get in the bath for pain relief or the pool or whatever. And they said that I wasn't allowed because of my weight and that it's a safety issue. And if the staff, if something happens and I pass out and the staff have to pull me out, it's not safe for the staff. I don't know, some bullshit like that. And I literally, we argued about this for about two hours. Like, no joke, it was hours that I argued with them about this, stopping every couple of minutes to have a contraction. And I'm saying to them, I've spoken with a private midwife, she's already told me you have no legal right to stop me from getting in the bath. I know I'm entitled to this bath. I know you can't stop me. And they would just sit there and say nothing. They were just like, well, it's, you know, it's not happening. They weren't giving in on it. And they kept looking across at my partner, like, like, are you, you really on board with this? Like they were waiting for him to jump in and convince me as well. Which he wasn't about to do because he's not a turd. Yeah. Yeah. And. Yeah, eventually it got to the point where I was just like, this is absolutely ridiculous. Fuck it. I'll just get in the shower. Like, I just wanted to be done with this. And yeah, so I got in the shower, which was great. It was all right. The hot water was good. It's all I needed. And still having to stand up for every contraction. I ended up vomiting. Like, I've I was very much in transition. It was getting to the point where the contractions were starting to almost feel good. Yeah, all those endorphins and hormones and things were really starting to flood my brain and things were feeling good. But every 15 minutes, that midwife was coming into the bathroom to get me out of the shower and do the Doppler. And there was no lock on the bathroom door. So the private midwife had told me if we wanted privacy just to lock the door and that they wouldn't be able to come in, there was no lock on my bathroom door. And she would just let herself in. So, and yeah, by then I'm like completely out of it. I'm not in my rational brain. So, and people please, so I'm getting out of the shower and doing the Doppler. Yeah. Yeah. And it was just, it was stalling things as you can imagine. Um, yeah. And after a few hours had passed, um, they wanted me to do a cervical exam and I'd already known going into, I didn't want any cervical exams. I knew that it was bullshit to go off what the cervix was doing, but I was in a different world. So I just went along with it. And they checked my cervix and they said I was only four centimetres. And by then I've been in labour for over 36 hours. I've been cornered from the moment I've walked into this room. And I mean, I'm transitioning, I'm very vulnerable. And I'm at that moment where every woman in labour hits where they say they can't do it anymore. So... They tell me I'm only four centimeters and I look at my partner and I say, I can't do this anymore. I'm exhausted. I don't know what to do. We should, we should just go and have a C-section. Yeah. And sorry. That's okay. Take your time. That's all right. There's a lot of memories. God, I can feel my heart racing just thinking about it. Yeah. Just no support, except for my partner, but you know, he was as vulnerable as me and we were both being cornered. He didn't know what to do either. Yeah. So at that point, I've pretty much said, just take me in for a C -section. Like this whole thing, you fucked it. It's you and anyone. Yeah. But, um... the midwife and the OB said, if I had gotten epidural, I'd be able to have some rest and still progress. And I could try for a vaginal birth tomorrow. So I was like, by then the contractions were excruciating because of all the fear and adrenaline. So I was pretty much screaming through them. Like they were so painful. And I just did whatever at that point. So they gave me their appadural. Now I'm on a CTG. They've set me up with the IV, everything they wanted they got. But I was able to actually get some much needed sleep. So the bed they had me on as well was like not a bed. It was like, what I imagine an operating table must feel like. Like it was so hard. It was really uncomfortable. And I've been having a back labor this whole time. So now I'm on my back and it was not comfortable. It was horrible. And then the next day the midwives are, you know, changing shifts and the midwives that I had were real like chirpy and just like they did not have a clue what we'd been going through up to that point. Again, just like the way that... that people in the system just have no idea who you are or where you've been. Yeah. Yeah. Strange feeling. Yeah. So it took like a whole day, but by about 6 p .m. that evening. So first contraction was on Monday afternoon. It's now Wednesday evening. And the midwife that was on then was, I don't think she was a Maybe she was a student. She was quite young and she was the only one that actually was, had paid attention to my birth plan and knew that I wanted a natural birth and was actually trying to facilitate that as best she could. So she had tried to get us to get me to use like the peanut ball to see if I could change my position slightly. Anyway, so yeah, she said that I was 10 centimeters dilated. So like, The finish line was like inside and I'm feeling like this is awesome. But I also couldn't, I was like numb in my pelvic floor. So I couldn't feel what was going on at all because of the epidural. So they said I would have to do coached pushing and wouldn't, you know it, but the OB who was on that diet was of course the ego OB that I'd had the run in. Oh, this is the one that told you about stillbirth and all of that, right? Yeah, the one who got all hoity about. And eight years or how many years of study. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh my God. Yeah, it's like Stephen King wrote it himself. That's terrible. Yep. So she told me to hold my breath and push with all my might on every contraction. And the contractions were quite painful still. There was a lot of pain in like the front of my right hip. So I think that Bo just wasn't in the right position. Because I'd been standing so much during the labour, I just needed to be upright or on my hands and knees or something. But of course, they wouldn't let me move. Um, they ended up convincing me to do the, the fetal clip, which is actually a screw. So, um, and I knew it was a screw because I'd read about that, but you, when they say that they're going to put the clip on, you sort of forget in the moment that they're using trickery. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's, yeah, that's, that's. That's horrendous because yeah, as a person that, you know, doesn't work in healthcare, in the maternity system, you know, that's not in birth suite. I imagine that if someone says, uses different terminology, you might think, oh, well maybe they've invented something different and maybe it is a clip because they've called it a clip and a clip and a screw are very different. Exactly. It's very much intentional deception. So much for informed consent, hey? Yeah, exactly. So yeah, they put the clip on and... the clip. And... Yeah, so I'm doing these holding my breath and pushing with all my might on every contraction. And it felt so wrong. And I knew it was wrong because I had read a book about... breathing techniques that said, you know, you're supposed to breathe. And also just common sense would tell you you're supposed to breathe during any exercise. Yeah, yeah, so true. And the holding my breath was making everything so much more painful. And yeah. you know, I've done research since then and realized that I was cutting off the oxygen supply to my baby and my uterus. So it's no wonder it was so much more painful. And at some point during all that, the midwife had told me the OB had me on a time limit for the pushing. And even though I knew it was arbitrary, I didn't know in that moment, because again, I'm in a different world. And she told me, doctors got you on a time limit. I'm just letting you know, because I know you want a natural birth. And I just immediately think, I've got to get this baby out as fast as I can, so that they can't fuck with me anymore. Yeah. Yeah. So that's why I did the coached pushing because I just, I really wanted to get my baby out safely and quickly so that they couldn't dick around with me anymore. Um, and it wasn't working. Um, and then the OB comes in and says that, um, the time is up essentially and they're thinking they're going to do a Ventus extraction and or forceps delivery. And I, in all the things that I knew could happen in hospital birth, I didn't think they used forceps anymore. Like in my mind, that was like something they did in the 50s. It's like, it's not a thing anymore. So as soon as she said the word forceps, I was just like, you fucking what? No. What? Yeah. But before I even had a chance to say or think anything, I got another contraction, just excruciating, blinding pain. Like so much fear running through me. Of course it was painful. I've got an epidural, but I can still feel all this pain. Like the adrenaline was overtaking it. And they'd actually given me, because they reserved some of the epidural in case we need more. And they'd already given me the other half. it did nothing. And yeah, so I have this overwhelming contraction and they just go, like they just call a met pool and suddenly the room is flooded with people and they're just doing it. They're just doing a ventus, you know, what the vacuum. Yeah, the vacuum. Yeah. And yes, I struggle with the words. Yeah. So they've come in, they've said, so there's this object you already don't like because she's been horrible and been quite frankly a bitch. She's come and said, we think that we're going to have to do Ventuselv forceps. And before you've even been able to have a conversation, you know, during labor about this, something's obviously triggered that like, I don't know, like a net call. And then, so everybody's come in, the lights, presumably if they weren't on, they're definitely on now, I would presume. You've then got like a heap of people that you've probably, well, you wouldn't have seen before. Yeah, just random people. I don't, how do they decide who comes during a Met Call? I don't know, because like, it's just a bunch of strangers. It's anyone. In healthcare, yeah, in healthcare, whenever there's a code blue Met Call, code black in some cases, it just means if you're available, you go. And that it's as simple as that. There's no regard of who actually needs to be there. You know, like, that's just, yeah. And then I've been in situations where I, as a nurse, I've just been, you know, waiting for someone to call off the code and you're just sort of, you're all just sort of standing there in the corridor. or in the person's room or whatever, just waiting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, there's no rhyme or reason as to who's there. It's just, yeah, it's super overwhelming. Yeah. It was like, I was, it's like the scenes you see in movies where like someone's strapped to a table and you know, the lights and everything's dizzy and there's faces everywhere. It was exactly like that. So. people everywhere that she's doing this Ventus extraction and it was excruciating. And I'm just screaming, stop. And by then I knew there was no stopping. I knew they were doing it, but I just, I needed a break from the pain. So I'm just yelling, stop, stop, like actually screaming and nobody's doing anything. And I'm, looking up at my partner and my partner's crying. and I'm screaming, this is wrong. And nobody's doing anything to stop it. I just, I felt like a dog, like I was just barking and they didn't speak my language. So the Ventus failed and they moved on to the Four Seppes and just ripped my daughter out of me. And I remember as she, as I felt her pass through at the end, I thought to myself, like, that wasn't so bad. I could have done that if you'd just left us alone. I could have done that. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, so they ripped her out and they just passed her up to me. And she was, the way she was crying sounded exactly like the sound I'd just been making. And my first thought was, oh no, I've taught her to make these noises. Um... Georgia... And I'm saying to her, like, I'm, my first words to her was just begging her to forgive me because I felt like I'd failed to protect her. And this whole room full of people can hear me and that fucking OB that just ripped my daughter out of me is going, congratulations, do we have a boy or a girl? And like, I'm just nothing. Just absolutely abhorrent. That's disgusting. That's... Yeah, I still to this day can't believe it. I've done EDMR therapy and it's still, or EMDR therapy, and it still affects me if I tell the story. Horrific. But yeah, so we had actually waited to find out the gender, so we didn't know yet either. So that was one redeeming thing is we got to have this nice surprise when we saw we had a daughter. And they tried to cut the cord and I said, has it stopped pulsing? Cause that was another thing I wanted was delayed cord clamping. And I think they knew that they'd put me through enough at that point because they, they left it. I guess they weren't pushing their luck any further with me. So. We did get to, it was not very delayed. I think it was cut after about 15 minutes, but they wanted to cut it immediately. So, and then they did all the fundal massage and they, cause I think I hemorrhaged. Yeah. And yeah, once the placenta was out, I had a second degree perineal tear. So they stitched that up and all of this just happened so fast. It was between. like the forceps happening and the next 30 minutes, it felt like it was on fast forward to me. And just suddenly, everything was done and the room was empty and everyone was gone. You know, being called fat or being considered that your BMI is too high and you have the focus around your weight seems like such a... like a minor thing when you're 20 weeks pregnant or something, you know, but that what it triggers is such a big thing. Like it's like, that's the first domino to fall, you know? And I just, because if it wasn't for that BMI, you would have been able to engage with private midwives. And it would have looked so different. Yeah, exactly. It's kind of crazy. Yeah, it's yeah, it's yeah, as you know, that same like like when a butterfly like flaps its wings, like its effect is felt, you know, so far away. Yeah. Yeah. That's like such a heavy story, Georgia. I'm so, so sorry that you had such a horrendous experience, you know, when you're meant to. feel empowered and amazing and loved up and be able to, you know, immediately fall in love with, you know, this life that you've just given birth to, like how, how messy that was for you. And I, I, yeah, I really hope that I also understand that it can be a pretty full on experience, but I hope that you have, or that you someday make a complaint about. all of this. Yeah, I haven't figured out how yet. I would really like to report that OB. And you know, in my perfect world, she would never practice medicine again. I consider her my rapist. So I'm not sure how to go about getting justice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, did you ever happen to get your hands on your medical records? I did. Yes. And that's what I was going to say before. Um, yeah, it's, so I went through my labor notes because I wanted to know if, if there was a genuine emergency, if there was a reason why that that was triggered and, and that it ended in forceps. There was not one word in there. that there was anything wrong with Bo to justify their actions. Yep. So there was no mention of her having decelerations that were outside the realm of normal. I don't think there was even any mention of the Met Call or why the Met Call was made. It was just noted that it was a forceps delivery. And of course, it was not noted. that there was no consent. My little sister had to look at the notes because she's a nurse. And she did say that I would have have grounds to potentially sue, she thinks, because there was no because there was no mention of of actually receiving consent. Yeah, then. you know, that's implied that consent might not have been gained or what do you say? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That they might not have had consent, yeah. So she thinks that would be grounds enough to potentially escalate it. But yeah, and I would like to, but yeah, up until recently, it's still been too traumatic for me to even consider doing it. Yeah. So. Yeah. Well, how, how dare they? Yeah. How dare they? Because the amount of, um, you know, hell, I guess that you've had to go through and be in and hell inside your own mind, you know, having to get like pretty intense trauma therapy because of, you know, such an experience like. How dare they live their lives not knowing the impact that they have had on your entire being, you know, like that's the thing. And they're allowed to move forward from that experience, patting themselves on the back and considering themselves heroes without any knowledge of how it affects people for the rest of their lives potentially. Yep. Yep. Yep. The sad thing, Georgia is they probably don't even remember it. They probably don't even remember, they won't remember your name. Absolutely. And they probably just don't remember that entire thing. Like it probably is so common for them to experience such. fucked up situations and to get so involved in things that they don't need to be involved in that it would just be a normal, normal part of their, you know, work life. Like, anyway, we could go. Yeah, just another Wednesday. We could go on about how fucked this all is. What is so redemptive though is that you've had this free birth. So tell me, you know, After you've had both, presumably it was a pretty, um... emotional postpartum, is that, would that be correct? Yeah, yeah, there was a lot of moments in the weeks and months afterwards that I would just catch myself sort of dissociating and going back there. I had, and I didn't realise at the time, I had so much tension in my body and especially in my shoulders that I thought was from breastfeeding and... you know, just being a new mum and that kind of thing. But I'm breastfeeding twins now and I don't have any tension. So that was the trauma that was stored in my body coming out physically. And so after you had Bo, did you think that, you know, at what point did you think that maybe you might like to be pregnant again? I don't know. I think I always knew the thing was that as traumatic as that birth was, I feel fortunate in some ways because I knew as it was happening and I knew after that it was not how it was meant to be. And by that I mean it's not how birth was meant to be. So it didn't really deter me because I just knew that it was meant to be so different to that and that it could be. Of course they decide to come out. That's okay. They've been very, very patient. They have. They're both deciding they want to feed right now. So, oh, bobbers. So, come here. I've lost my train of thought. That's okay. So you kind of had thought that, you know, it could be different. And now I guess you're sort of, you know, savvy to all of the ways that they can mess up your plan. Totally. So I remember saying to my partner about maybe a week or so after we'd had Bo, we were having dinner one night and I said to him, what if we did just stay home next time? Because we'd talked about like how different it would have been if we'd just never left that night. And then I started thinking for real, like, what if next time we just didn't go? And as soon as I thought that, my very next thought was, oh, but how, what would I tell my family? Like, everybody would freak out. And what would I tell Zaeve's family? Like, how would I explain to them that we're not having any care and they would be so worried? And... Maybe I should send a message to that private midwife and see what she thinks about free birth. And as soon as I had that thought, I realized I'm outsourcing again. I'm giving my power to other people again. Yeah. And I think it's very funny. You just used the word care and it's so funny because it's so funny in a sadistic kind of way. that people worry that we're not going to get care, but what they provided to you is not care. That's exactly it. Yeah. It's sort of a backwards thought really. But yeah, as soon as I had that realization of like, I'm still asking for permission, I knew that that was the thing that had to stop. Yeah. So. Yeah, I think as soon as I realised that my mind was made up, I was like, I know that this is what I need and I have to learn to not care what anybody else needs. Yeah. Yeah. So over the next three years, I didn't have like a timeline for when I would be pregnant next. I knew it would probably happen at some point, but we weren't going to be intentionally trying. Um, and I was visited by a spirit baby when Bo was about six months old. So I was driving to my sister's house and I just stopped in traffic and it's just a regular day. And I just suddenly had this sort of voice in my head that was saying like, Hey, what's up? I'm here. My name is Beazel. Don't expect me anytime soon. This is Bo's time. So you'll be hearing from me. Well, I've just got like so many chills in my body. Yeah, okay. Yeah. It was really surreal. And at that point, I hadn't heard of the concept of spirit babies. So this was just really random to me. Wow. Okay. Wow. Yeah. I was like, is my imagination running wild? Like, what just happened. Yeah. But it and it was less what she said and just more of a feeling I got. I got this, this just like I knew her energy immediately. And she was very calm and quiet and wise, sensitive, just very different to Bo. Bo is like... my wild child and even in the womb, she was very active and like, she's like fire. Um, so I didn't hear from her again for a couple of years, maybe not even until I was pregnant. Um, and yeah, so yeah, we weren't trying to get pregnant and we didn't get pregnant until I think it was like July last year. Um, And I didn't know for the first eight weeks, I'd say. It's funny, like, once you hear how the birth played out, but yeah, it's hard to explain being so in tune with your body, but also being so unaware of certain things. But yeah, I did not know I was pregnant at all, even though... All the signs were there, like I had all the symptoms that I had with Bo. So, you know, really sore, tender breasts and just feeling sort of queasy and full and bloated all the time. And yeah, I was super tired. I was like, yeah, it's all right. Oh, God, yeah. So I didn't know until I took the pregnancy test. And even then I was certain it was going to be negative. Yeah. I took the test and sat it down and was waiting for it to show the results. And I remember thinking to myself, even though I'm not ready to be pregnant again, because at that point I hadn't really worked through my birth trauma and I wanted to do all that first. So even though I'm not ready to be pregnant again, it's kind of sad every time you do a test and you get a negative. And then I looked down and there were two lines. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It took me a little minute. I had to check the box and be like, isn't two lines a positive line? Yeah. But yeah, as soon as I saw it was positive, it was like all fear just left and I was excited again and I went and showed Dave and yeah, we were both just excited. It's, you know, the timing is what it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. But life is what happens when you're busy making other plans. I really love that quote. Yeah, yeah, that's it. So at that point I'd booked in and again, the timing is so funny because I think I'd only just recently gone to my GP to get a referral for a psychologist because I was ready to actually process the trauma. Yeah, it was weird because it was like hazel. needed a gesture from me to know that I was ready. And yeah, it's just, it's so strange that it happened right after I'd scheduled that. So I did the very first session with my therapist before I knew I was pregnant. And, you know, got to say to her, like, I want to work through all this because I plan on having a free birth next time. And I don't want to be carrying anything from this first birth in with me that might, um, instill me with fear. And then I got to go back to the next session and be like, well, I'm pregnant. Yeah, time to face my fears. Yeah. So, yeah, a lot of the shadow work really was processing what happened the first time and, and actually really understanding that it wasn't my fault. Yeah, but simultaneously acknowledging my role in it because it's not my fault the way they treated me and I didn't deserve for that to happen to me or for them to do that to me. But I had known from the entire antenatal care that these were people who didn't respect me or know me or support me and I still went into the hospital that night. with the, I guess, the naivety of thinking that I could just convince them. And, you know, so it was sort of a blessing in a way to have that first birth and to realize that I don't have to convince anyone anymore. So I was able to go into this next one unburdened by the pressure of talking anyone into anything or... or convincing them that I'm well and healthy or convincing them that I have the strength to do this. Like I knew and that's all I needed for real this time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And how many weeks roughly was this kind of going through your mind? Just throughout the whole pregnancy, I think. Throughout the whole pregnancy. Yeah. Yeah. I've done so much work throughout the years since having Bo that that I think by the time I was pregnant there honestly wasn't too much more to work through. There was actually putting the first birth behind me because that's what it felt like by processing it with the therapy. It really felt like it doesn't haunt me anymore and it's an upsetting memory but it used to feel like if I spoke about it it was like I was going back there. I I knew that the therapy had been successful when in our second last session, she encouraged me to go through the memory and to imagine someone there with me, like a spirit guide. And it could be anyone or anything. Like she said that sometimes her spirit guide is a Wonder Woman. Like it can be anything. So I tried to imagine it with my mum there. Like... just as a person there to hold your hand and just to be there for you, not to change anything. And I was visualizing it, like I'm on the table and there's all these people around and it's happening and I'm trying to picture my mum saying to me, it's all right, I'm here, you're safe. But it was coming out in my voice, in my head. And then suddenly it wasn't her standing over me anymore, it was me. And suddenly I'm not looking up at me anymore. I'm looking down at me on the table. And it was like past me experiencing it. And I realized like I've switched roles. I'm not there on that table anymore. And I'm up here mothering myself and I can mother myself. It was really surreal. And I just knew like I'm not there anymore. That's her who's there. It was very liberating. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So I felt really unburdened by that for most of the pregnancy. I've had some fears come up from time to time, like, you know, the what ifs of... And mine weren't always super specific. They were things like, what if my labor stalls or my baby gets stuck? in, you know, halfway down. And the way I would process that is I would write down the fear and then I would come up with an opposite for that. So if the fear is, what if my labor stalls, then the opposite for that might be my labor will progress at the pace that it's meant to. Yeah. And then I would just tear up the fear or burn the fear and keep the other one to reread. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was really helpful and every time I had a fear come up and I did that practice, it really did just put the fear behind me and I didn't think about it anymore. Yeah, amazing. And the other thing was learning to treat fear as a friend and to welcome it and to see what it has to offer me. So the other big fear that came up towards the end of the pregnancy was... For some reason I got it in my head that like, what if my bladder gets really full and I can't pee and I have to have a catheter, I really don't want to have to call like emergency services for what feels like a really silly reason because it's so easily resolved. So in that instance, I couldn't shake the fear by just rationalising it. So I had to be a bit more practical with that one. So I learned how to... insert a catheter and I ordered some catheters just in case. But it didn't practice it. But I watched some videos and had the catheters there and I just, as soon as I had them in the house, I knew that we wouldn't need them. It was just like having that that reassurance of having the objects there was enough. Just going back a little bit, so at what You know, did you have a wild pregnancy then, a completely wild pregnancy? Yeah. So we did the pregnancy test and after that, I, yeah, I think it was pretty much completely wild most of the way. I did see my pelvic floor specialist at some point because I had really bad pelvic pain again. And it was worse this time and from earlier on. Yeah. So she gave me some exercises and then I ended up seeing my GP at about 35 weeks. And I'm really lucky because I absolutely love my GP. She's like a medical unicorn. So she knew already that I was planning a free birth from when I'd got my referral for the psychologist because I'd already mentioned it to her then. And she's just like... you know, very on board with women making their own choices for themselves. So, yeah. Amazing. Yeah. So I went in there and I wanted a referral for an osteopath to help with the pelvic pain and also just to, I guess, to medically confirm the pregnancy to make it easier to get the registration later on. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So she said the easiest way to do that would be for her to do like a really quick Doppler scan to confirm the heartbeat. Yeah. And I was really reluctant because of the scan at the end of my last pregnancy and how that took everything. So she could see I was reluctant and she was like, it would just be quicker than sending you off for a full scan. we could get it done here today and I will be really quick because I know you're not wanting this. And in the end I was like, I'd rather she do it than anyone else. So, yeah. So I'll do this. And she was true to her word. She only held that Doppler on my belly for like a second. It was enough for her to see the heartbeat and she was like, cool, there's a baby in there. It's done. Yeah, confirmation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tick box. And, you know, because you said earlier that, you know, a fear sort of before you had looked into it and whatnot around free birth and, you know, that whole world was like what your family would say, like, did a conversation like that have to come up then about, you know, not engaging with. care in you know air quotes you know with that sort of normal care provider pathway? Not really because by then you know it's been years since I had that original thought so I've actually already had conversations with everyone by this point multiple times and everybody knew that my next birth was going to be a free birth. Yeah. Oh well my family anyway. And I'm pretty close to all my siblings and my mom. So they were all very aware. And I basically, I did have the thought when we found out we were pregnant that maybe I should tell them I'm a few weeks further along than I am. So that if I go to, you know, 43 weeks again, nobody's like hounding me or freaking out or anything. Yeah. Yeah, of course. Yeah. In the end, I just didn't, I was like, what am I worrying about? Like, My family's not going to hassle me. I'm overthinking this. Yeah. Yeah. So I didn't, didn't worry about that in the end. Um, and so, you know, the, the doctor checks, um, you know, hindsight, we know it was twins, but like when the, when the doctor's checking the heartbeat and you know, through like at what point or did at any point you think maybe there's more than one baby in there. Yeah, we certainly had the thought. Yeah. So there were a few signs, like I felt my first flutters of movement at nine weeks. Whereas with O, it was like 22 weeks. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was a big difference. Yeah, yeah. And then I got the pelvic pain so much earlier and it was a lot worse much earlier too. Yeah. And just I was so big by the time I was 28 weeks, I looked like I was full term. But all of these things, I was able to just rationalize and be like, well, second pregnancies are built different. Yeah. I just I think in my mind, like, and we joke so much about it being twins. Yeah. But it was just so unlikely to me that I didn't even want to. I didn't even want to even think that it might be and then have just one baby come out because I think I would have felt really silly. Yeah, yeah. Did you have like any like increase in chance for twins like in your like family history? We didn't think so. So when we would joke about it, we'd be like, oh, well, there's no twins in either of our families. So like, it's not likely at all. We've since found out that there's twins on both sides of our family. Wow. Oh, that's so funny. Yeah. Whoa. And so, um, is there any, you know, certain like practices that you did during your pregnancies to kind of connect with your body or your baby or? to prepare for, you know, having a free birth. Obviously you've done like so much, you know, education and work, like a lot of work in the past couple of years, but was there anything else that you did in particular? Yeah, so I kept a baby diary and I did the same thing for Bo where I wrote about the pregnancy and... did that throughout. So it's like letters to the future child. Yeah. And I was so adamant that it was Hazel in there. Yeah. And we were actually going to call her Luna. Yeah. So this like all the entry start like dear Luna. Oh, that's so funny. I was certain that Bo was going to have a little sister. I just I knew this. child like and every time I like connected with the baby it was Luther. Yeah. And then maybe halfway through the pregnancy or maybe even earlier it was like Hazel went quiet and I was having trouble connecting with her like I would try to tune in. And I wasn't getting direct messages anymore. It was just very quiet on the other end. And I just sort of brushed that off and was like, well, maybe it's because like she's not a spirit baby anymore. Like she's actually physically in there. So maybe the messages come through differently. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's so strange, but yeah, the womb went real quiet. Yeah. Wow. I still knew everything was well and I was really attuned with my body and the pregnancy from that standpoint. But in terms of connecting with the actual baby, it was just a lot quieter. And I think I put that down to second pregnancy as well. You have less time. Yeah. So I didn't think much about that. Yeah. These boys were just, they were just real quiet in there. Yeah. It's so, so funny that, you know, they'll read these entries one day and you'll have to explain to them this whole story. Yeah. Because they're going to be like, mom, what the heck? I actually, I ordered a sort of Christmas stockings last Christmas. Yeah. And I got... I got a fourth one that actually says Luna and I don't know what we're going to do with that. Well, you never know what the future holds. Yeah. Wow. And so, you know, when you were having like kicks and movements and stuff, you know, later on in your pregnancy, did you feel then also that? maybe actually there might be two babies in there more than just kind of like a what if. Yeah in hindsight but again I just sort of brushed it off so every time I did belly mapping I could not figure out what was going on. It was like it felt like it was a head here but it also felt like a head there and how can the back be on both sides? I must just not be very good at this. Yeah. So brilliant. I love that. I love that because yeah, exactly. But then yeah, you would be so hesitant, like you said, to call it twins and then, you know, then there would only be one baby and then you'd be like, well, I'm just silly, you know? Yeah, that's it. Yeah. It's like I said earlier, it's so strange to be so in tune with my body, but... simultaneously miss like the bigger sides. Yeah. Well not miss them because they were there but I guess I just rationalized them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And, you know, did you have any like... Like, you know, because this is your first birth at home. Did you have any ideas on like what you wanted your space to be like? Or, you know, did you have any thoughts on what, you know, if you'd use anything in particular during labor or who would be there? Come back kind of stuff. Yeah. So initially I really, I thought I really wanted a doula. Yeah. Because I, I regret not having a doula last time to advocate for me. Yeah. And I had thought that I would never have another birth without one. And we met with one local dula and she was really on the same page about birth and she'd supported free births. I'd had her recommended by like three different friends. But we just didn't click and I couldn't tell you why really. Um, yeah, but yeah, a few weeks went by and I was sort of mulling it over and on paper, you know, everything about her seemed like a perfect fit, but I just couldn't shake this feeling of like, every time I pictured the birth and her being there, like my gut instinct was just that I didn't, I didn't want anyone there watching me. Um, I didn't even want anyone in the other room. Like, I just, I needed to not have anyone there that didn't feel 100 % safe. So I ended up making that call and that one was a bit tough because I had thought that I would never have another one without an advocate. And I've always been very vocal to people about get a doula, get a doula. And I was also worried that maybe I... you know, am I becoming hyper independent? Am I, you know, doing almost the same thing I did last time of just stubbornly saying, well, I can do it on my own then. Um, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized like, no, actually what I'm doing is I'm really consciously being aware of who is safe to have around me and who isn't. Um, so I just really felt that, that, this baby and by this baby I mean Hazel because that's who was guiding me. This baby was telling me to keep it in the family. So I knew I wanted Zaev there and I wanted Bo there and that was it. And maybe if I felt like I needed extra help, I had two sisters nearby that I could call. But I had a feeling that I wouldn't need to. I think there's like such a beauty as well, you know, having heard, um some twin stories recently and you know obviously in hindsight we know you had twins um but you know twin pregnancies especially in countries like Australia where you know the maternity system is like it is like you would have otherwise been having scans like every fortnight every week you would be constantly fear mongered about equal size or you know what kind of twins are say like induction, like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But how freeing that you didn't have any like, you know, really any of that, like that fear wasn't placed on your, you know, yeah, I think that's, it was such a blessing. Yeah, a blessing. Yeah. And I guess I was really conscious this time about that because of how fear had impacted me at the end of the last pregnancy. So I was so conscious this time of what I allowed in to the point where I even had like a couple of books that my friend gave me and they were like information packs for like first time moms. So they had all the stuff that you would usually see like, you know, eat dates at the end of pregnancy and raspberry leaf tea is good for this, that and the other and don't sit in the recliner too long for this reason. And all of that I would like, I absorbed all of that in the first pregnancy and I hadn't realised the impact that that had had on me. And this time when I was clicking through the booklets she'd given me, I could feel the little seeds of anxiety bubbling up in me. Wow. And... just how it was separating me from my instinct and making me question how I was doing things and I guess I should be doing more yoga and maybe I should be going for more walks and maybe I should watch what I eat a bit better and as soon as I felt that happening I just closed the book and put it away and I realized that it's this wall of information is separating me from myself. So... I was really conscious about when that happened from that point on and, and just what noise I allowed in and what noise I turned down, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a really good way to put it. Absolutely. Um, so I, in terms of the pregnancy, I did not eat a single date. I did not have any raspberry leaf tea. I didn't have an evening cream rose or. I didn't just spinning babies or yoga. I pretty much lift in my recliner because it was the only chair that didn't hurt my pelvis. By the end of the pregnancy, I was using a walking frame because the pelvic pain was so bad. I didn't leave the house for the last two weeks. I was pretty much chair bound. How many weeks? Yeah, that's... so freeing, so freeing because there's so many rules that they enforce upon you. You know, pretty much if you're not having a wild pregnancy, you have all of these rules placed upon you about what you should and should not be doing. And like, well, it's better if you do this and better if you do that. And like how freeing to be to have that, you know, not have that noise even like I'm very, very jealous. But you know that's... Yeah, exactly. I hope that I would, you know, it's very inspiring to me to hear like the power of like women like yourself that, you know, choose to disengage from the system because yeah, all I could think in my second pregnancy was like, God, I wish I didn't have to go. like I hate going, it's a waste of time, they tell me stuff that makes me angry. Yeah. You know, and that was the, you know, yeah, like, yeah, it's amazing. How many weeks then were you when you went into labor? Or did you have any signs of labor earlier on? Because, you know, there is like this common, I don't know too much about twins, but is... there's like this common sort of thing about like twins usually go earlier. Like how was it in your experience then? Yeah. So I, by the time I was about 35 weeks, I just really had the feeling they were coming soon. And I kept saying to Zaeve, I really think they're coming within the next few weeks. Um, which is weird because it's so soon, but I also thought maybe my dates were off and I might've been four weeks further along. than I thought I was. Yeah. So I was able to rationalise that too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Brushing off all the signs. Yeah, they're literally trying to tell you. Yeah. But yeah, so the last, we went out to a concert when I was 30, 36 weeks, I think, and that... was the last time I left the house. Yeah, wow. Wow. And after that, I just had like the nesting urge. Yeah. Which was hard because I was physically so unable to actually do anything. Yeah, of course. You know, like setting up the pool or the birth space or, you know. Like I was showering on a seat at this point. Like I was pretty much... debilitated. Yeah. But yeah, had had this surge of like, bit of creative energy and to get the final things done. And I think I lost my mucus plug a week before they were born, maybe. So I'd also been having like, I think in the last trimester, I'd been having Like Braxton Hicks and I knew they weren't real contractions. They felt different. But yes, I've sort of been having practice contractions So I knew things were ramping up and then on the day I was 38 weeks exactly and I just sort of woke up feeling a bit different again like last time. Yeah And we ended up, so we had a shoot scheduled with my photographer that day, a virtual shoot. So she would be doing it through the phone. Oh yeah. Amazing. Those are the pictures that I've seen, I think. Yeah. So that was scheduled for 4pm. I went and had a nap in the afternoon. I was feeling tired and I wanted to make sure I had energy for the shoot. So had a dose. And when I woke up, I went to the toilet and then got back up and just like my waters were leaking. Wow, yeah. And that hadn't happened last time, so that was new for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I just knew that things would be kicking off from there. So we did the shoot with me leaking fluids the entire time. Yeah, yeah. In very early labor. I hadn't had any contractions yet at that point. It's like everything was holding off until that last thing was done. And then, so yeah, we finished the shoot around five -ish and since we knew that it was go time, we decided we'd have takeaway again and like last year or last time with both. And this time we watched Law and Order SVU. Excellent. Excellent. There's a theme. Yep. Yeah. New York. Yeah. I don't know why that's the theme, but it is. Yeah. And then around 540, I had my first mild contraction. It felt like a cramp sort of running through my back. And from that point on, they were pretty consistent. already, like every 10 minutes apart, still pretty mild. By about eight o 'clock, I think. So eight o 'clock, Bo fell asleep and Zaeve put her to bed. And yeah, by eight thirty, I think I was like in full blown labor. Wow. Wow. Yeah. It's so much quicker than with Bo. Yeah. Um, like we thought we'd be in front of the long haul. I thought it would be like 24 hours at least. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, things like, yeah, when, when it's undisturbed and when you know you don't have to go anywhere, like I wonder if that made a difference. Cause I was just able to relax so much more. Yeah. Well with Bo, I remember you said like, before you went to the hospital, like, contractions were like pretty close together, like, and things were, things were happening, but yeah, then, you know, it's all the little things as well, like signing into the hospital and, you know, getting into the car is a big one. Like, you know, if you just stay put, then like it can be uninterrupted and yeah, that's powerful. Yeah. And just uninterrupted. as well by the thought of having to later at some point go somewhere. Like I think maybe even Bo's labor might have been longer just for that reason of knowing that at some point we have to move location. But yeah, so things ramped up from there. We didn't time any contractions. And yeah. I didn't even, I didn't check the time or anything. Yeah. So I, once Bo was in bed, I moved to the bedroom and Zaev was filling up the pool. Um, and I was laboring on the bed, mostly on my hands and knees. I think I laid down for a little while. Um, and yeah, I had to go to the toilet a few times. Um, And by that point it was already getting like just the walk down the hallway. I was stopping like every three steps for a contraction. Wow. Wow. Yeah. So then it got to the point where I saw I was in the pool and I knew I had to get out because I had the urge to poo again. And by then I already gone to the toilet twice and the walk was like the most difficult part of all that. Yeah. So I had to say to my partner, like, I'm not, I can't make that walk again. I'm sorry, I'm pooing in this bucket. Yeah, yeah. Go do what you go do. Yeah, that's it. We crossed that bridge that day. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, it makes you stronger. It makes your relationship stronger. Yeah, it was all part of it. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I'm back in the pool. I think I laid on the bed for a bit. By now it's... maybe 11 o 'clock or 12 o 'clock. Bo had woken up and come into our room and she was awake on the bed for a little bit and then passed back out. So by this point, I'm saying to Zaeve after every contraction, I can't do this anymore. It hadn't even been that long compared to Bo's labor. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I also don't really remember the contractions being that bad. So it's interesting how you forget. Yeah, so quickly. Yeah. So every contraction I'm finishing and going, oh, I can't do this anymore. But also knowing that the only way out is through like, I'm not, what else am I going to do? Like it's happening. Yeah. Yeah. So I didn't, you know, say it was, um, He was really good and we'd already talked throughout the pregnancy about what sort of support I thought I would need. So he knew that I mainly just needed him to just to be there. He didn't have to do anything or say anything. He just had to be a comforting presence. And he was perfect at that. Every time I'm saying I can't do this anymore, pretty much all, I don't even remember what he said, but it was just along the lines of, you're doing great. And that's all I needed to hear. Because I knew it in my head. I needed some validation of that, I guess. And yeah, eventually I started, I had some affirmations on the wall. And it was around that point when I was saying, I can't do this, that I was like, oh, I've got those affirmations. I'll cling onto one of those. So at the end, through every contraction, I'm going, I surrender. I surrender. Yeah, yeah. I'm just trying my best to get through it. And it was around that point that I sort of had this moment of clarity that I realized I was saying that I surrendered, but I wasn't surrendering. So. what was holding me back. And I remember I was back in the pool at this point and I just looked up at Zaeve and said, I think I'm scared of the pushing phase. And he just said, you're doing great. Yeah, something like that. Yeah, yeah. And I just like, as soon as I acknowledged that that was what was holding me back, I was able just to let it go and and move forward. And it was like at that exact point that I crossed over into the pushing stage. Yeah, wow. So, and I hadn't had this with Bo's birth, so I hadn't realised that maybe I was scared of getting to that point. Yeah. Because I didn't know how it would feel. Yeah. And yeah, it was different. So I went from being like really vocal through the contractions to... suddenly I just didn't need to be vocal anymore. I just had to breathe deep and just funnel everything down. And I started, I was almost meditating. I was saying more of my affirmations and just going slow, soft. And just reminding myself to... to just slowly open. Yeah. And I could feel the baby's head moving down now, which was really reassuring. Yeah. And then it's sort of at the apex of each contraction, I was feeling these pushing urges that I sort of could control. It's hard to explain. It's such a bizarre feeling. It's... It's like I had to just allow them to... I had to just let go and let them come through it. And each time they came, I'd have to just release and let them do their own thing. Yeah. So I guess that's the fetal ejection reflex. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, well it's uncontrollable, right? Like you... Yeah. Yeah. It's a train and it's coming through. Exactly. I could keep trying to hold it in, but I really had to consciously allow myself to relax enough to let it happen because it's sort of scary. You feel like it's going to hurt if you let go. Yeah. So yeah. And that, you know, I don't know how long the pushing stage was. I think Saif said it was like an hour, but to me, it felt like 15 minutes. It just flew by. Wow. Yeah, just crazy how the time changes. Yeah, yeah, it's like such a time warp. Like, Laborland really is like Laborland. Like it's just, you're on another planet. Totally. So, yeah, I just stayed on my hands and knees that whole time, just breathing, doing my chants. I pretty much didn't move at all. And eventually the head popped out. And the second I felt that happened, I just had the urge to get more upright. So I moved onto one hand and one knee and he just came straight out. And I caught him and the cord was quite short, which surprised me because Bo's cord was really long. Yeah, wow. And I slowly pulled the baby up out of the water. and saw his little face and just immediately I was like, you're not Hazel. Who are you? Yeah, it was, it caught me off guard. Wow. Yeah. I was like, whoa, hello stranger, hi. Yeah. Oh, that's so good. And so, yeah, I'm in the water and I'm holding him and I hadn't seen the gender yet. Um. I just knew that this was not the little girl I've been waiting for. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah, after a little bit checked and yeah, it was absolutely blown away that it was a boy. Yeah. And then I had like uncontrollable shivers and I guess it was like a surge of adrenaline maybe. So I had to hop out of the water and get on the bed to warm back up. So yeah, thinking that that's that and we're going to lay on the bed now. I've given birth. Yeah. Oh my gosh. And so, you know, so what, what, what's his name? Oh, that was Eugene. Eugene. So Eugene's born and so everything that you're shivering, but you think that it's, you know, adrenaline, like whatever, but you know, There's no more contractions. It's... quiet in that sense. For a couple of minutes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I got out of the pool and onto the bed. I'd say we only had maybe five minutes before I got another contraction. My sister had said about with her birth that the after pains were a lot more intense. So I just... Oh no, have you been just palmed it off as us? the bed. Yep, yep. I was able to rationalise one last time. Oh my goodness. And yeah, got this, oh, and this contraction just took the wind right out of me. Like I'm laying on the bed in not a very conducive position for birth, like laying on my side. And feel this, this contraction just overwhelmed me. I had to like hold onto the headboard and Oh, it was horrendous. And I just thought, Oh my God, they were not kidding about these after pains. So I got saved to mix me up some of my after after pain. Oh, yeah. And the placenta release because I'm like, my God, I've got to get this placenta out thinking that that will stop. the after pains, even though that doesn't actually, that's not how it works. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I was just like, I've got to get this out of me. Yeah. So, on some level I knew, yeah, I knew there was something that had to come out. Yeah. Yeah. Very promptly threw back up the tinctures he gave me. Still didn't occur to me that that was a sign of transition. Oh yeah. And yeah, so that I kept having those contractions and they they were coming like every minute or two they were really close together for about an hour nearly an hour. Wow, wow. He probably would have come out a lot sooner if I'd realized he was not a placenta. Oh that's so good. Yeah. So, oh, they were, they were so painful, these contractions. Cause like I said, I'm not in the best, if I knew I was in labor, I would have changed positions. But at this point I think labor's done and I'm trying my best to rest. Yeah. He's like, he's bloody after, after birth pain sweet. What's happening? I'm meant to be in my blissful fourth stage. Yeah. Did not get that. Yeah, so in the end, I had to ask Zaeve to cut the cord because it was too short and I wasn't really able to... I was so distracted by these contractions, I wasn't able to bond with Gene at all. So I had to pass him off to Zaeve and I was like, I've really got to concentrate on getting this percent throughout. So yeah, continued laboring for like an hour and screaming the house down. I was so close to telling Zaeve to put a note on the door just in case someone called the police. I was that loud. I was actually screaming. And then eventually after, so immediately after a contraction, I thought I've got to get upright and try and get this placenta out. I can't take this anymore. Very quickly, like I just had enough time to... to sit up and like squat off the edge of the bed. And this placenta just came out with one big push. And I forgot to mention, I was having pushing urges that whole time as well. And I thought that that was a bit strange, but I also thought, well, my body is trying to push the placenta out. So I guess it makes sense. So yeah, sat up, had this pushing urge and just, Audi came in one big push. And a funny looking placenta. Well, I didn't look straight away. I just took it for granted that it was a placenta. I am just like looking at the ceiling like, oh, it's done. Finally. Finally. And then I sort of come back down to earth and I hear Zaeve going, quick, pick him up. It's another baby. I looked down at the ground and. It's another baby. Oh my gosh. Oh, that's the best story. He's very lucky. He landed on the soft mats that we had underneath the pool and not on the floorboards. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I've heard lots of stories about, you know, people like women going to like trying to walk to the toilet or walk to this way or walk there or standing up and the center just falls out and goes splat on the ground. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, very lucky. Also lucky I didn't stand straight up, I suppose. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he wasn't far from the ground. Wow. Wow. So yeah, picked him up and saw it was another boy and we, me and Zaev are just looking at each other and just laughing. Yeah. Because the universe played a very good joke on us. Yeah. Oh, that is just, yeah. So what's going through your head at that moment? Like what the heck or like just like in disbelief? Yeah, just, I mean, I still can't really believe it. I still love thinking about it because just the, the unlikeliness of it, the amount that I brushed it off, it was all right there in front of me. It's so funny to me. Yeah, it is. It is funny and like, yeah, like I just, I don't even have words. What a story. Like you're going to have to, what, what's the second baby boy's name? Freddie. Freddie is so cute. And so named because Zaeve thought it was funny because Fred landed on his head. Oh my gosh. I figured I picked the name Eugene so he should get to pick the next one. It's only fair. It's only fair. Like, yeah, telling Eugene or Gene and Freddie this someday, like, I just, I wish I could get that conversation because that is such, such a good story. And they would be, you know, I want to say a handful, but I'm not even sure that many of like, surprise free birth twins in Australia. Like, what the heck? Yeah, I don't think it's common. Yeah. Yeah. But like health professionals, like, you know, obstetricians and like, you know, I think. They wouldn't even like there are so many health professionals out there that don't even know that like this they can't Think outside of the box that this could just happen. It could just physiologically You could just have twins unknown at home by yourselves without any Shoes like yeah and just imagine like as a plus size woman as well, who probably had undiagnosed gestational diabetes. Oh, air quotes. They'd be ripping their hair out. Yeah, they were just like... That in itself is hilarious. Like, because you'll have gobsmacked all of these people, you know, that obstetrician with all these years of experience would not be able to figure this out. I feel like feeling she'd be mad about it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. And is Bo awake or is she asleep when this is happening? Yeah. So we'd spoken a lot with Bo in advance about whether she wanted us to, if you're asleep, do you want us to wake you up when the baby's being born? And she'd always said yes. So yeah, when Eugene was nearly out, I did it. tells Abe to wake her up. So she saw Eugene born and she got in the pool with me and she was bonding with Eugene and the whole time I was laboring with Freddie. So she was loving up on having a little brother and then Freddie comes out and we, you know, she'll look over at her and say, you've got two baby brothers. And she just, she almost had this look on her face like I'm too tired for this shit. Like, what do you mean? What is my mother doing? Who does she think she is? Yep. She, it wasn't shock or surprise. It was just sort of an exasperated like, what are you talking about? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my goodness. Um, so what has the past four weeks been like, you know, We didn't we didn't talk about the placentas. So yes, did they have the same placenta or separate placentas? Yeah, so they did share a placenta, which is cool. We didn't know that yet. So yeah, Freddie came out and then I laid down on the bed again, you know, got ready to birth this placenta. The actual placentas. Yeah. But the whole so I stopped having contractions as soon as Freddie came out. Um, and I was just gushing blood. Like I could feel it coming out as I was laying there. Every time I moved a little bit or coughed, like there was more blood coming out and it got to the point where the bed was soaked and I still wasn't too worried because I felt okay. Um, and one of the fears I'd worked through during the pregnancy was what if we have to transfer and I have to go back to that hospital. Um, and I'd, I'd gotten to the point with that fear where I'd, I thought as long as I'm in charge of all decision making, then that's what's going to be empowering. So I just don't want the rug pulled out from under me. I don't want anyone else deciding when it's an emergency. Um, so yeah, Zaev was really cool. He wasn't worried at all cause he knew that. And he was ready to follow my lead. So yeah, I'm feeling good, but also feeling like this amount of blood coming out does not really feel like my normal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I tried getting up and putting a little bit of traction on the cord to see if the placenta was ready and it wasn't budging. And when I squatted to see if it was ready to come out, a whole bunch of like chunks came out. And we later found out that they were blood clots. But at the time, like some of these were like fist sized, they were big clots. And I thought that maybe my placenta was coming out in pieces. So I was like, yeah, I'm not sure this is normal. Let's call an ambulance. But it was good because I've I felt totally calm and yeah, like I didn't feel any sort of fear or hesitation. I just saw those chunks and I was like, that's probably not normal. Think we might need some help now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But to use the system in the way that, you know, it like, yeah, I say this all the time. Like it is, it can be helpful, you know. And my experience, of Bo's birth is that they absolutely fucking love an emergency. They're good in an emergency. They're real good at emergencies. They make emergencies. Oh, they love them that much. Yeah. Yeah. They're practicing emergencies all day long. Yeah. It's like how chefs just work really well under pressure. They sort of thrive off it. or like firefighters. They're thrill seekers. Yeah. Yeah. That can be not only explanation. So good. So good. So yeah, we called the paramedics and they were there really quickly. They were really good. They did do fundal massage, which in hindsight, I think I probably could have had a say in, like I could have said, actually, I don't want that. But by that point, I had made the decision to call for help so I was letting them help me. Yeah, yeah. So it was not comfortable. It was very painful. But I wasn't going to tell them to stop either. It didn't really occur to me. Yeah. Yeah, I did ask them to take a break a couple of times because I needed to catch my breath and they were good about that. Yeah, cool. And yeah, so. took the ambulance to the hospital and I was a big baby in the ambulance because at that point I was still bleeding a fair bit so they did like fundal compression which is like fundal massage except they just hold, they just push on your belly and hold, yeah. And that was really painful. It was so painful I couldn't breathe so I was actually... I was like yelling, stop, stop, please. Like I can't breathe. And she was saying, like, no, I'm really sorry. I'm so sorry, but you've got three little ones at home and you have to get out of this alive. And you know, I'm sorry, I can't stop. I'm here to save your life. And I was so close to being a little smart ass and being like, just let me go. Just let me go. Yeah. But then they gave me some fentanyl and I was okay after that. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I was in pretty good humor the whole time. It sounds so horrible, but after my first birth, the fact that I was empowered in the decision making on this one made all the difference. Yeah. I knew that they were there to help me and I'd asked them to help me. So. Yeah. Um, even though it was painful, I'd, I'd consented to it. It's different. Yeah. Yeah. But also like, you know, this is in response to something, you know, like, yeah. It's like, if, yeah, if you're drowning, yeah, sure as hell. I want someone to jump in to save me, but please don't stop me from getting in the beach. You know, like I still want to get in the water and if I need help. I want the help then, you know? Like, I don't know why that's so radical to think about, but yeah, I totally get what you're saying. Yeah, the only downside of it really was that Bo was awake and watching for that whole thing. Yeah. But I mean, what else can you do? Yeah. Yeah. So and I just I made sure that. that I was reassuring her the whole time and saying, you know, I feel okay, I'm all right. I'm gonna be safe, they're taking care of me. They're here to help me, all that kind of thing. And during the pregnancy, we'd watched a lot of birth videos and talked about blood. And, you know, I'd said to her, like, sometimes there is blood and that can be totally normal. She's not in any pain, look, she's smiling. All that kind of thing. So I think she was all right and I was really focused on just making sure that she knew that I was okay. So yeah, her and Zaeve. Zaeve's got these two naked babies in his arms and a toddler to wrangle as they're prepping me to go in because they were going to manually remove the placenta under general anaesthetic. And by the time we got to the hospital, I was pretty exhausted. So I was like, please put me under. I'm ready for a break. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, he, he had the kids and was waiting in, in a room for me to be done in surgery. Yeah. Yeah. And then, We were at the hospital for two days, I think, well, because I had to have a few blood transfusions. I lost 1 .4 litres, they estimate, which isn't as much as I thought. No. Yeah. My sister came around to our house the next day to pick me up some clothes, the nurse sister. And she said that she wouldn't have estimated more than a litre as well. Like she said, it wasn't a lot of blood. So. Yeah. Wow. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. Especially for two babies. Yeah. Yeah. It makes me wonder if maybe if we had stayed a bit longer, like maybe it would have been okay. But I also did just have a gut instinct that the placenta wasn't coming. Yeah. And the doctors did say the next day, I asked them if it had come away from the wall at all. And they said, no, it was still fully attached. So. Yeah, interesting. Yeah, interesting. But like, Yeah, you used, you used the hospital for the things that they love doing. They, they're there to, you know, respond to those situations and, um, yeah, not every birth is, is going to be, you know, this completely uneventful thing. Like birth can be pretty eventful wherever you are, but I guess the issue is, is that like, in a lot of situations, the health providers and the health system, they're creating those events. Their events are just not, you know, naturally occurring. And that's the problem. Yeah. But yes, sometimes real emergencies do happen. So, yeah, yeah. Yeah. There's different ways that different people could have handled it. But like I followed my instincts and that's... I think that's all anyone ever really should do. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Everyone's instincts are going to be different. Yeah, 100%. So I guess, you know, thinking about the past couple of weeks then, you know, off the back of, you know, that, like the most incredible story I think I've ever heard. And I've heard a few by now. But then also, you know, the two days in hospital and the blood transfusions and whatnot. How has like adjusting to life with twins been like, has that been like pretty full on or have you felt supported or just still going, getting through it? I've felt really supported this time. It's so interesting because after Bo's birth, being in the hospital, um the few days that we were there it seemed like none of the midwives knew what had happened during my birth um like a few times I was struggling like having trouble sitting up in bed because of the pain and a midwife would be like are you okay and I had to be like I just had a traumatic forceps delivery like did no one tell you yeah and yeah like nobody knew what we'd been through and One midwife actually, she caught me crying at one point and asked if I wanted to talk about it. So I told her what had happened. And at the end she was pretty much like, but you did say the cord was wrapped around the baby's neck. Yeah, I was just like, fuck off. Yeah. Oh my gosh. And nobody ever sent for like, Nobody sent in like a social worker or like someone to check in on my mental health. So, you know, we just went home and that was it. There was no support from the system. And honestly, like postpartum that time hit me like a ton of bricks and as it does for most first time moms, but I in hindsight, I didn't feel like I had as much support from my family as I needed. Um, yeah, I hadn't thought about things like meal trains and, um, you know, people coming in and doing dishes or chores and things. So, and me and Zaeve was both still such people pleasers that we, we didn't want to ask for help or lean on anyone. Um, so yeah, this time I was more conscious of asking for help through the pregnancy and the birth. So like, instead of a baby shower, this time we did. uh, sort of like a mother blessing, but I just asked it, um, so it was only like my sisters and my close friends and I just asked them each to make something like, um, a craft or a totem or, uh, like paint a picture, just, you know, come up with something that I can have in the birth space as a symbol of like you being there with me. Cause I, I want support in the room with me. Not. not you there physically, but I want to know that you support me. Yeah, yeah. So I had a few things in my birth space that that really were helpful. It was like, I don't know if that if anyone listening will have heard of the term gossips. I've heard about it through Rachel Reed. Me too. But yeah, that that that concept of your women, friends and family being in the room with you to to just, you know, drink cups of tea and to be there for you and to lend a hand. Like having those things in the room with me was like my gossips were there. Yeah, that was beautiful. Yeah. And so, yeah, then the postpartum, we had a lot of people make meals for us this time, which you can't underestimate how kind of a gesture it is to make food for someone. Even if they don't need it. To know that someone put time into like time and energy and resources into preparing nourishment for me. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it can't be undervalued. Yeah. So that was amazing. And like, as soon as everyone found out it was twins too, like my family group chat was blowing up with people being like, Oh, you've had boys. Well, We've got all these hand -me -downs, so I'll bring them round. Wow. I've got plenty of baby clothes now and I've been on Marketplace looking at twin strollers for you and bounces and bassinets and stuff. Wow. Everyone really rallied. Yeah, of course. Yeah, now you've got a... Well, at least they're both boys. I mean, clothes have no gender, of course, but... Um, you know, at least they can wear the same outfits and share the same things, at least for this period. Like, um, honestly, it's been funny because even though they're twins, I can dress Eugene in pink clothes and it looks really good on him and he doesn't look girly. He just, yeah, he still looks like a boy baby. Pink suits him. Yeah. But yeah, Freddie, I can't put Freddie in pink. It doesn't suit him. Really? It's so weird. So cute. Do they have like, can you already see like features that are different or do they look pretty like identical? I, it's so hard to tell because I can tell the difference as their mum. Yeah. And I think there are differences, but yeah, sometimes I do still get them confused. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, we don't know for sure whether they're identical or not because, um, so they shared a placenta, but they're only identical if they shared an amniotic sac. And we're not sure about that. So about that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Holy moly, Georgia. Um, I know this has been a longer episode, but like, sorry, I had no idea it was going to be this long. No. No, I'm so grateful for you taking the time and, you know, being so honest and open and sharing your experiences because I love hearing about it. It makes me angry and fired up to hear, you know, about how fucked up the system is and how, you know, women are treated. But. Like completely on the flip side, like also just how possible it is to have such incredible, like we're laughing about, you know, the twins, like there's a lot to involve and that's like, I'll still laugh about that when I'm editing this back, I'll still be laughing about how crazy that is. that you thought it was a placenta, but it was another baby. And it really truly was a surprise because yeah, like some people that listen, yeah, like this, this might be the very first time like me, I've never heard of like a surprise twin. You know, I've heard of them read them maybe in a news article, but like I've never heard an actual story about it before. And I just, Like the fact that you all of all that you've gone through and then yeah, like, wow, all power to you. Like, yeah, you're incredible. They feel like the two births like Bo and then the boys, it really does feel like bookends is the same story because I feel like my whole journey from from first hearing that that podcast with Jane Collings Hardwick. I. have been going on this journey of like unraveling and unlearning so much and really deeply trusting myself and undoing all these people pleasing tendencies that I didn't really know that I had. I, you know, as horrible as Bo's birth was and as angry as it makes me and it shouldn't have happened in some ways, Like I sort of am grateful for all that it led me to. Like it was a key part of my journey. Yeah. And all of the lessons. Yeah, yeah. I want to say as well that for anyone who's been through birth trauma, it really does feel like you're never going to get past it because a part of you doesn't want to let go of that anger, I think. because you're right to be angry. And I know for a long time, even when I started the therapy, I remember saying to my therapist, firstly, I kind of suspect I'm gonna be one of those people that's resistant to the treatment. Because there's no way I can ever get past this. It was such an injustice and such a violation. How can I ever move on from this? I really couldn't fathom it. And so if... you're currently out there in that position of being unable to fathom moving past it and letting go. It is possible. It doesn't take another birth. It takes the therapy. It takes the shadow work, but it's possible. And it feels so good to have it as just a bad memory instead of... this full body trauma that you carry around and that haunts you like a cloud. Yeah. Like you can move past it, it's possible. Yeah. Well, I think, yeah, like you're the perfect example of that. And it's not without so much work and effort and time and energy and like money and... Yeah, that OB owes me. Yeah. Yeah. In my opinion, she should be paying for... all therapy that needs to occur. Yeah. I get the feeling she owes a lot of women. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I am so excited to go tell my husband about how I've just spent the past two and a bit hours. Thank you so, so much for chatting to me, Georgia. I wish you lived closer. But. It would be great to have a cup of tea. It would, it would. And also, I love your photography Instagram account. Thank you. Yeah, just, yeah, amazing. Thank you, thank you so much. No worries. I've loved chatting about it. And yeah, it was listening to birth stories through, you know, the past three years that really, I think, was the biggest help for me. And like birth stories, women in general just have such a strong oral tradition and we can't underestimate how valuable these stories are. Yeah, 100%. Absolutely. So if you're listening, please definitely share this episode or share any of the episodes or share the podcast. Um, because yeah, that's what it's all about. Like, so then, you know, um, women aren't just sitting. at home on their couch with their baby or babies, you know, having no one to tell their story to. Like it should be something that we're able to talk about and share. And, you know, yeah, the other women can learn from and be inspired from. And that's what I am hoping to do with the podcast. That's what I hope I do with the podcast. Yeah. Thank you so much. real power here and reclaiming our stories. Yeah. Absolutely.