Episode 30! Today's episode is shared by (Adelle) Del from Perth. Del talks us through her journey to finding homebirth. Going in to her first birth hoping for a 'low intervention birth' ended in fighting a diagnosis of down syndrome, then finding an induction and eventually falling victim to the cascade of intervention which ended with a traumatic c-section. Determined to reclaim her power that had been taken from her, Del went on a journey of learning about vaginal birth after cesarean (VBAC) and subsequently, HBAC.
An amazing story!!
I'm also so happy to start sharing podcast promo's from like minded podcasts - if you would like to bea featured, please contact me on instagram.
This episode promo is from 'Born for This' @bornforthis_thepodcast
Links to resources:
CHAPTERS
00:31
Del's Journey to Home Birth After Caesarean
09:12
Fragmented Care and High-Risk Label
13:41
Coercion and Fear Mongering
26:37
Cesarean Birth
33:01
Reflection and Healing
34:56
Preparing for a Different Birth
35:25
Lack of Information and Consent in Hospital Births
36:46
Limited Options for VBAC in Perth
38:08
Financial Considerations for Home Birth
39:04
Finding a Supportive Private Midwife
39:30
Alternative Tests and Declining Interventions
40:53
Preparing for Home Birth
42:13
Formal Education and Alternative Therapies
44:03
Trusting the Process and Overcoming Doubts
46:40
The Birth Experience and Reclaiming Autonomy
49:24
Growing Home Birth Community in Perth
51:45
Preparing the Birth Space and Prodromal Labor
55:41
Transitioning to the Birth Pool
59:32
The Birth of Atticus
01:02:24
Postpartum Experience and Healing
01:08:30
Spreading Awareness and Empowering Women
Episode 30! Today's episode is shared by (Adelle) Del from Perth. Del talks us through her journey to finding homebirth. Going in to her first birth hoping for a 'low intervention birth' ended in fighting a diagnosis of down syndrome, then finding an induction and eventually falling victim to the cascade of intervention which ended with a traumatic c-section. Determined to reclaim her power that had been taken from her, Del went on a journey of learning about vaginal birth after cesarean (VBAC) and subsequently, HBAC.
An amazing story!!
I'm also so happy to start sharing podcast promo's from like minded podcasts - if you would like to bea featured, please contact me on instagram.
This episode promo is from 'Born for This' @bornforthis_thepodcast
Links to resources:
CHAPTERS
00:31
Del's Journey to Home Birth After Caesarean
09:12
Fragmented Care and High-Risk Label
13:41
Coercion and Fear Mongering
26:37
Cesarean Birth
33:01
Reflection and Healing
34:56
Preparing for a Different Birth
35:25
Lack of Information and Consent in Hospital Births
36:46
Limited Options for VBAC in Perth
38:08
Financial Considerations for Home Birth
39:04
Finding a Supportive Private Midwife
39:30
Alternative Tests and Declining Interventions
40:53
Preparing for Home Birth
42:13
Formal Education and Alternative Therapies
44:03
Trusting the Process and Overcoming Doubts
46:40
The Birth Experience and Reclaiming Autonomy
49:24
Growing Home Birth Community in Perth
51:45
Preparing the Birth Space and Prodromal Labor
55:41
Transitioning to the Birth Pool
59:32
The Birth of Atticus
01:02:24
Postpartum Experience and Healing
01:08:30
Spreading Awareness and Empowering Women
Hi, welcome to Birthing at Home, a podcast. I'm Elsie, your host. I'm a home birth mom of two little boys. I'm a mental health nurse, a home birth advocate broadly, but also more specifically in the state of Victoria and I'm an ex -student midwife. Before we begin, I would like to acknowledge the Wurundjeri people who are the traditional custodians of the land I'm recording on in Melbourne, Australia. I would also like to acknowledge the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples have been birthing at home. own country for tens of thousands of years prior to the British invasion and acknowledged that sovereignty has never been ceded. This is episode 30 and today we hear from Del's, mum of two from Perth. Going into her first pregnancy, Del's hoped for what she called a low intervention birth. But when her pregnancy took a sharp unexpected turn, labelling her as high risk, she ended up being fear mongered into a C -section. Leaving that experience with birth trauma, Dell started exploring vaginal birth after caesarean, which led her to finding home birth after caesarean. Today, Dell shares her journey to finding H -Berk and then her redemptive goddess H-Berk with baby Atticus. Before we get into the episode, I want to share another great podcast that might interest you called Born For This. This is a podcast that dives deep into the unfiltered emotional roller coaster of motherhood through the lands of Beth. A mother of two raising her children, some may say the unconventional way. She has honest and raw conversations with people who have influenced her along her journey, sharing information that she wished she had known before having children. Born for this is the one stop shop to getting a little woo woo on parenting and a safe space for women and parents to feel supported in their decisions to do things unconventionally. You can find the podcast on Spotify or Apple podcasts under Born For This or on Instagram at Born For This underscore the podcast. And now enjoy this amazing home birth after caesarian story from Delz. Welcome Delz to Birthing at Home, a podcast. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Thank you. You're joining from Perth, right? I am. Yes. Yep. Nice hot sunny Western Australia. It's like quite warm in Melbourne here today as well. I thought it was going to like over the weekend Because we just got back from India and it was really really hot in India. Yeah, we got back I was like, oh finally like autumns here. So nice I can put on long pants again and then the past two days have been like 30 35 like so no reprieve Do you want to start by telling the listeners a little bit about who you are, who's in your family? Yeah, so obviously we're from Perth. It's myself, Adele, my husband Ash and our two sons. So we have Samson, who's three and Atticus who just turned 18 months. So yeah, that's us. Yeah, amazing. And so Samson was born via Cesarean and Atticus you had at home. Yes, yes, I did. Amazing. Sharing a H backstory. Yes. They are. They really are. Yeah. Do you want to start by telling us a little bit about your pregnancy and the birth with Samson? Yeah. So we got pregnant with Samson and I was really, really excited, obviously. And I'd had two miscarriages before. So I was a bit apprehensive with this one just because. Obviously you get quite anxious, don't you? So we got through to the 12 weeks and I thought, okay, this is good. And then we had our 12 week scan and the sonographer was like, oh, there's some abnormalities with his numerical fault. And she basically, not a doctor, but obviously I didn't really understand at the time, but she was like, oh well, he'll probably have Down syndrome. So you might need to start thinking about like... termination and stuff. And I was like, Whoa, like steady on like, you're a sonographer. I was like, yeah, the doctor. I'm a scan. I know. I was like, I'm terminate my baby. Yeah, I was like, beg your pardon. Like, what is going on? So anyway, we like left quite quickly because I was quite upset. And I booked a doctor's appointment the next day. And my doctor was like, Oh, I'm like, I don't think that she has like, all of the information. So she shouldn't have really said that to you. She was like, obviously, miracle folds can be like thicker and she was like it's just something that we'll have to do so let's refer you to the tertiary hospital just to get like all the checks done. So sort of as that happened and I got referred very quickly between like 12 weeks and 16 weeks it became like a normal pregnancy to a high risk like oh he might have this he might have that sort of thing. So I guess I realised very quickly that my birth centre, low intervention birth potentially is just getting whisked away from me. What did you know before even becoming pregnant with Samson? What was your understanding of Samson? pregnancy and birth. Did you know about home birth? You obviously live at birth center. Yes, yes. I knew about home birth. My grandma actually gave birth to my dad and my uncle at home in the UK. She's not the only one in our family, but she was always talking about her home births. I kind of romanticized the idea of it, but it sounds so silly now to say, but I guess because it wasn't culturally around me. It seemed like something and I always said it like I'm being drawn to one, but I think I'll just go to the hospital first time because you never know, you know? And so yeah, it was, I was twing with the idea of it, but I thought like maybe the center was probably closest to that. And Samson had an estimated guest made a date of December 25th. So that already put me at like a. oh you might not get into birth center anyway. But then the high risk label that we got very quickly sort of it was like oh he's high risk, he's high risk, he's high risk. So I didn't see a midwife or a normal obstetrician or anything at the tertiary hospital until I was like 25 weeks because we were in the special fetal maternal fetal unit and we were just being monitored. I was going for scans like every two weeks and they were checking like all his growth and the norectal fold and they tried to push like amniocentesis on us quite quickly, which obviously runs the risk of miscarriage anyway. And can you just, I have a vague understanding of that. You might be able to give a better explanation of that. Yeah. So basically they put like this very large needle straight through your tummy into the womb and they take some of the amniotic fluid and apparently I think it's similar to a nip test, but obviously more invasive and a lot further along. Yeah. And it's supposed to predict with 90 something percent certainty whether they have a chromosomal issue like Down syndrome, which was what they kept saying was potentially what he had. And up until that point, we hadn't really received care that I would describe as respectful or informed consent at all. Obviously we kept saying no to things, but we saw this specialist obstetrician and she was lovely. And she said to me like, what are you guys thinking? Like what is the plan here? And I was like, well, up until this point, everyone just keeps talking to us about termination and we're really not on that wave at all. And she let me explain like the previous losses and how that had made me feel. And I said to her, like, it doesn't matter to us. Like anything that happens, we're okay with, but we are not terminating this pregnancy for a chance that he might or might not. And she was like, cool, let's not do the amnosyntesis. Let's not do any further testing. She was like, If it doesn't matter, then let's just go along. And if I can find out more information and we can make a better, like informed decision for you, then let's do that. So we did that with her and she was brilliant. And it got to about 26 weeks and they dropped me down from high risk to normal or like low risk. And obviously I use those like quotations because obviously to me it's all BS. But anyway, and then I got put into like just the normal everyday tertiary hospital. So fragmented care anyway, which actually her care was probably the most continuity of care I got when I was pregnant with Samson, which is saying something. So I saw a midwife for the first time and she was like, oh, let's get you up to speed. And they just did the normal fragmented care that they could. You're waiting four hours to see someone for 10 minutes, that sort of thing. And everyone kept talking about my due date, like it was this big issue. So I knew like we'd already been fighting for him. So I knew that I had a fight on my hands the whole time. And I really wanted to be, have the most, un -interventional birth I could have with him. So I did so much research and I felt really like equipped for it. But I don't think I did the research that you need or the mental, I didn't have the mental equipment to deal with. the bombardment and coercion that is the system. Truly, I don't think you really can prepare for it. You know? You prepare to fight one person, right? Yes. That's not the problem because yeah, like you say, you have to get prepared to fight the entire system and you're just one person. Yeah, that's it. And yeah, they have a way of like wearing. you or someone that you care about down as well. Like that was my experience anyway. So we like were steadfast in what we wanted and I got to like 40 weeks and 41 and one. So we went in on Boxing Day and the midwife, she was really like lovely, but I do sometimes have like a thing about lovely midwives. They tend to be like really lovely, but not really lovely. You know what I mean? Then you seem to be like the good girl when they're so lovely to you, you know? And you to please them because they're being so nice to you. Yeah. Yeah. So she was like, Oh, do you want me to do a stretch and sweep? And I was like, I'm 41 and one, like 40 and one, sorry. I'm like, no. And she was like, okay, cool. We'll just have to ask. And I was like, okay. And she was like, these are the things you can do to like promote the baby coming. And I was like, okay. Anyway, so we just went through and I think maybe like another week went past and I went back in and they were like, Oh, you know, now you're like 40. one and one or something, you need to come in regularly for CTG's just to check bubs is okay. And I was like, okay, like it doesn't seem like too much to us. So we would go in and the first time I went in, they were like, oh, you're 41 and one. And I was like, yeah. And they're like, well, you haven't had your baby yet. And I was like, yeah, he seems fine. Like not an issue. I took my mom to come with me because I was so heavily pregnant and I was like, I don't want to drive myself. So she came and I guess maybe between everyone sort of got the vibe and they were like, we're just going to put you in a room and we're going to do a side by side, a bedside ultrasound of baby. I was like, okay, we haven't seen him for ages. Like that's, that would be nice. And then they took us into the room. Obstetrician came in and she was like, I cannot believe no one has scheduled for an induction yet. And I was like, what? And she was like, She basically just went full ball, like played the dead baby card. She was like, you know, your placenta can die, da da da da. And I was like, I know all those things aren't true, but she wasn't saying it to me. and it didn't affect me. She was saying it in the room and it affected my mom hugely. So my mom had issues with her placenta and I was born really little. I was like two weeks over and I was like four pounds and there was this whole big thing with her placenta and stuff and it must have just triggered something in her. And she was like, I'll give you a minute but then I'm going to come back in and we're going to book it in induction. And I was like, okay. Anyway, my mom was like Adele, like you don't want them to, you know, induce you and or something to happen and you have to have an emergency cesarean. She had that with my sister. So the same placental issue. And then they had a, it was a true emergency with my sister. She was coming out. Her cord was like wrapped and whatever. Anyway, I'm not entirely sure, but it obviously put the fear of God in my mom. And she just like got so triggered and she just like, just dropped all this fear onto me. And I was like, Oh my God, like why anyway, I guess I was tired and like, I guess I was sick of fighting. And I thought, if I just say yes to this, then I can cancel it. So we sat down and she was like, when do you want to be induced? And I said, like, I'm not going to consider anything until 42 weeks. And she was like, Adele, like your baby could die. Do you really want that? Like, do you really want to be responsible for that? And I was like, I feel confident that he's fine. And she was like, well, you'll have to come in every two days for CTG's. And I was like, whatever. Yep, sure. Book me in for 42 weeks. And my mum was like, you want the best opportunity you can, like just get induced, da da da da. And so they were both like at me and I was like, I should have not brought you, but anyway. And so, yeah, so we went in every two days and then maybe like, I think I was like 41 and five. So it was a couple of days later, I went in with my husband and they brought a new obstetrician in and she was really lovely. And she was like, Do you want to meet your baby today? And my husband was like, of course I want to meet my baby. And she was like, great, we've got a slot. We can fit you in. Like we could get your induction going today. And I was like, I think at that point I was like, I can't fight anymore. Yeah. I can't keep fighting. So yeah. So we said yes. And I said to her before I say yes, I want some, these are the things that I want respected. These are the things that I had as my like plan for birth. I said I wanted to use water. I didn't want to be on the monitor like strapped down. I wanted to be able to move and all those things. And she was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we can do all of that. Yep, absolutely. We can definitely do that. I'll put it in your notes. So she like made out that it could be this beautiful experience of being induced. Anyway, it wasn't. We waited another day because I got stuck in the hospital because there was obviously women that were having their babies. So I just kept getting pushed back and I was like, why can't we go home? And then. at that night so I was there at about 8 o'clock in the morning, about 8 o 'clock at night. We were like, can we just go home? There is no point in me being here. I want to go home, maybe I could get into natural labour myself, maybe it will be spontaneous, da da da. And she was like, well you could go home but then we'd have to start the whole process again and it was so hard to get the cannula into your arm and da da da da da. And she just made it seem like it was an inconvenience to them. So the dead baby card but only because it's convenient to them. Yeah. I was like... Okay, well, what should I do? And she was like, my suggestion is, is that you just stay and you send your husband home to get some sleep because he's really tired. And I was like, okay, so we did. And then once my husband left, they pushed me out of, um, like labor ward or like the delivery suite or whatever they called it there. And they put me into like a different unit down the hall. So I had to like, I carry all my bags and my birth ball and everything with me and. I got back into this new room and I just remember crying and I was like, you have kept saying yes to people and your whole body is screaming no. What are you doing? So now you're by yourself in this new room. Yeah, so now I was by myself and I couldn't sleep and this midwife came in and she was like, you know, Adele, it's like 11 .30 at night, like what's wrong? And I was like, can't sleep, I'm really anxious. I just want to go home. Like she was like, it's okay, like they'll come and check you tomorrow. And I was like, I don't want to get checked. I want to go home. She was like, do you want me to give you something to sleep? And I was like, no, I don't want like a sedative. I want to go home. And she was like, oh, on your notes, like it mentioned that you have anxiety. So like maybe this is why. And I was like, no, I want to go home. I want to feel safe. Like, anyway, I know. Anyway, so they were like, they were like, just stay like, it's so close. It's so close. Anyway, in the morning. They're you hostage. It sounds like you're like, I just want this one small thing. You're not doing anything anyway. What would you be doing? Like blood pressure checks or something? Yeah, that's literally what they were doing. Like there was no point in being only for the sake of like being able to document why you're taking up a bed. Like. Yeah. I don't know why they didn't send me home. Like they obviously needed the beds and like maybe I should have been more like pushy about it. But I think also like I at that stage, I still fully trusted the system. And I obviously was like, It's obviously just me. Like I just feel unsafe. You know, I just feel like, yeah, like maybe like gaslighting me, but also me gaslighting myself in a sense. Like, so then my husband, I messaged my husband in the morning. I was like, I can't sleep. It's horrible. I need you here. Like I don't want to be by myself. And the midwife came in and she was the midwife that had helped me settle in the morning the day before. And she was like, Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry that you're still here. Like what do you want to do? And I was like, I just want to go home and she was like, just let me check everything and make sure everything's okay. And then we can either like see what's happening or I, we can send you home. And I was like, I just want to have a shower too. Like I'm disgusting. Like I haven't been out of a shower and I just feel gross. There's no food I can eat cause I have celiac disease and so I can't have the normal hospital food. No one offered anything else. And I was like, I'm just, I'm over this. And she was like, I'm so sorry. So she let me have a shower and then let me have a shower. I had a shower and then she asked if she could do a cervical check and I was like okay. And she did a swab and she said that the swab came back with leaking waters. And I said I felt a little bit wet down there but I just assumed it was sweat and stuff because I hadn't had a shower. And she was like, oh I think it's water, your waters have gone. And she was like, that's really good, we can get you on. like to your induction and I was like, okay, I was hoping to go home. But sure. And she was like, well, now that we know that, like we can push you, you know, up the, up the list. And I was like, okay. And she just made out like it was this really good thing. And I just thought like, I just want to get this over with now. My body was like, just get it over with. Let's just go. And yeah, that's a point that I should have gone home, but I didn't. So yeah. But anyway, so we went in and we had the induction and everything seemed really going reasonably well. So maybe the first like, I think about, it's probably about 11 o 'clock in the morning and then by eight o 'clock at night, it was like manageable pain, but still like the usual. I was just, I had a midwife that I clicked with and she did make the safe, the space really safe and she didn't let anyone else in. And. she was helping me with acupressure and she was really encouraging. She said I could use water and I was using the TENS machine. She said she was charging the waterproof pads so that I could do that. She tried to make as much room as possible while those were charging so that I could move around. She put those on and then they died. She'd have to charge them and stuff. So I used... a little bit of gas in there because she was like maybe that will take the edge off so I'd use that and it just like made me out of it for periods of time so I have to stop using it. And then they said that bubs was, I guess like there was too much pentosinon or centosinon because I had the drip. So the drip at this point. Yeah, so I had the drip and they'd broken my waters. one time and she'd like nicked me and so that really hurt and then she was like oh we'll take a break and I think I've got them and then maybe two hours later they're like oh she's not in enough pain like she's still talking so she asked to check again and she's like no there's more water so she nicked them again and they came there was more water that came like my water broke again so she was like oh now it should really like kick off and I was like okay um and yeah so about eight o'clock at night I was like in a little bit more pain and I was like, can I jump in the shower? And she's like, I'm just about to change shifts. So the new midwife's coming. And I was like, okay, I'd really enjoyed the space that we've created. And then the new midwife came in and it was the opposite. I didn't gel with her. She within a couple, like an hour or so she's like, I want to check you. And I was like, okay. So she did a VA and she was like, Oh, I hate to be the bearer of bad news. And I was like, I, dislike you already. Why would you say it like that? She was like, you're only four or five centimeters. You're not seven because the other midwife had said I was like seven. And I said, oh, she said I was seven. She's like, no, I think you've gone behind. Like it's actually wrong. Like you're only like five or four or five. Oh my gosh. And she was like, how about an epidural? And I was like, I don't want an epidural. Like read the notes and the birth plan. And she was like, okay, well, it's just that you seem to be uncomfortable, so it might be easier. Anyway, she was dead against me using the water, and so every time I asked to jump in the shower, she'd be like, oh, they're not charged. And I was like, well, could you find something to charge? And she was like, there's none on the wall, da -da -da -da -da, and kept making excuses up. And this whole time, I mean, it's just like the fight, I don't think. Mums who, you know, are birthing in hospitals understand that it's not just the fight. You're 41 weeks. You're pregnant. You're in labor and also having to fight. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's not just, you know, the system that you're fighting just like that, you know, you're meant to be in this really like safe, like chill, relaxed, oxytocin vibe. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But. Now you're pissed off at the midwife because she's being a troll and won't let you have the cordless CTG. Like, what the heck? I know. And also, like, I think obviously my body wasn't ready either, right? So my body is fighting against something that's unnatural and my body's like, hang on a second. And so everything, like, like you said, like it all culminated into this really uncomfortable, like, I, my body had two choices. I can keep fighting and really seriously like just resent everything that's going on or I can just shut down. And I think it got to the point around like one or two o 'clock in the morning where I was like, I just want this to be over. I just want to leave this room and now go and start my life with my baby. And she kept like, saying like, oh, he's stargazing and da da da da da. And I didn't really know what that meant. But I assume he was like, posterior, his position was like, you know, back, he was, we were back to back sort of thing. Yeah. Or spine to spine or whatever. And so like his position wasn't optimal or whatever. But she basically was like, your only option is an epidural. And I was like, can you help me with some different positions? If he is like, is there something I can do to help? I know that positions are really important. and just try to get some sort of like support from her because my husband was at the point where he didn't really know what else to do. But he knew that it wasn't going well. And I had a friend there and she was also trying and like everyone was trying to just like will this baby out. And it just wasn't working. And I was like looking to her as like this woman who's supposed to be with women. And she was like not interested. She was like on the computer and just looking back and being like, you're right hon, just breathe through them. And I was like, fuck you. You don't know what's going on. Like waiting for the donuts to finish on their, you know, finger. Oh my gosh. So she, yes, I just, like, I just was like, this is not going well. And she just kept doing like VE's and she just kept saying the same thing. You're, you know, this many centimeters, you know, you're not progressing. Maybe an epidural relax to you. Maybe this, maybe that. I kept asking for a shower and she kept saying no. Yeah. And then, um, she was like, do you want to have an epidural? And I was like, yeah, just whatever. Like at this point, whatever, like I don't know. Yeah, I'll just, yeah, like let's just, yeah, let's just get this over with. And then she said to me, you can have a shower now. And I was like, I hate you. What, because I've been a good girl now and now I'm doing what you want. Now I get the reward of a shower and I got in the shower and I just started like boiling my eyes out. I'm saying to my friend like, this is not what I want. This isn't what I want at all. And now I get to have what I wanted. And the only reason I get to have that is because I am doing what she wants me to do, which is quiet and down for her night shift. Like it just, the whole thing felt just so coercive and like she just got me at the right vulnerable time and wore me down. And I knew that this was the end of. what I wanted in my birth because everything had been stripped away from me to the point where it wasn't what I wanted. It didn't look like how I wanted it to look. And now I just had to get through whatever happened. But I knew I was headed for a caesarean. I just knew because I knew that I was on timer. I knew that the epidural was going to get me lying down. I knew that. was no gravity, all the things, I knew all those things and I just had to sort of let it happen. Yeah. Did you do like a birth education stuff during your pregnancy? So I did, but we did the hospital one first and like it was quite positive, but it didn't tell you anything like, it didn't give you any preparation for if you take this pain relief, this is what happens, you know. It was just sort of like, these are your options. Okay, but not like the pro -cron risks. No, and like, this is what happens if you have a cesarean and all, it didn't go into any of that. It just went into, this is your best opportunity to have a natural birth. Here are the things. These are some of the things you could do. And, and it was a lot of like baby care and stuff. So I did like my own research and I knew about the cascade of intervention. I knew about the risks of epidural and all of those sorts of things, but. when I was in it right then and there because I had been mentally grained down and like just everything had been stripped. I wasn't thinking like, oh, weighing up the risks and the pros of it, you know? I didn't have the capacity to do that at that time. And so then when they asked me to sign that thing, I was like, I can't even see my own eyes. I was so doped up and I was in so much pain. And I actually remember saying to my husband, like, I don't think that's my signature. And he was like, I don't think they really give a shit. Like, They just want someone to sign it sort of thing. So I gave them that and then they did the epidural and they said, oh, we'll do an epidural and we'll see what happens. And then like a couple of hours later they came in and checked and they're like, oh, you're still five centimeters. And I was like, well, there's nothing happening. I can feel everything on this side. I'm lying on my back and I'm like, there's a lot of pain because they pushed up the oxytocin drip and stuff. And once I felt like it was going to explode and I kept saying that to the midwife and she was like, you're not in that much pain, I'm like, just calm down. And I was like, I am, like it's, I'm in so much pain. I was like, I honestly feel like my vagina is going to explode and my insides. Did she actually say that? That she weren't in that much pain? She did. Oh my God. And after I said that to her, she like got right close to my face and she was like, I don't know what you want me to do for you, Adele. I'm trying hard. and you're just being ridiculous. And I was like, at that point I lost her. I started hysterically screaming. And then she was like, do you want something to calm your anxiety? So they brought the anxiety thing up again, because it was all through my notes. And then I started screaming and I was like, get away from me. And I woke my husband up because he's having a little nap. And I said to him, they're not listening to me. I'm in so much pain. And he was like, if she's in pain, why are you not doing anything? And she was like, well, she says she's in pain, but like, I don't think she really understands. Like the epidural doesn't always work properly. Ash was like, my husband was like, I don't care. You get the anesthetist back in. If she's in pain, you told her to have an epidural. And now she's not relaxed. So you fix it. So then she came in and did like this ice test and she was like, oh yeah, it's not working on all the whole right side. So then they got him the anesthetist to come back in and then he. But that's so silly because the ice test basically like is checking like the level to which, you know, the epidural is working too. But you've already said, I can feel it. So like you could have said anything on the ice test, but you basically said it. Why did she need to go get a bloody block of ice? I don't know, but she did. And then my husband was like, well if you're happy now could you get someone to fix it? So they did and then they doped me out so much that I couldn't feel like anything from like neck down. And so yeah I think my body just sort of shut down and I didn't feel safe. My body was like it doesn't matter how much drugs you're pumping at She's not doing anything like nothing is happening. So about like four o 'clock in the morning or something and the OB came in who was on rotation or whatever and she checked again. I was like, oh yes, you're still four or five centimeters. I think it's best we go for a caesarean. And I was like, yeah, whatever. Let's do it now. I just want to go home. And they were like, okay, cool. You're gonna meet your baby. And I was like, I'm not excited. I just want you to cut me open and take my baby out and give him to me so I can go home. Like that is all that was in my head. There was nothing like exciting about it. There was no, like I thought I was going to die. when I got on the table, but there was no like, like a relief of like, oh, you're gonna have your baby. It was just purely that I could leave. Like, do you know what I mean? Even if it was in a couple of days, it was just get me out of this room with these people that I don't feel safe with. So that's what we did. And we had the caesarean and the midwife that was in there with me was beautiful. She was like rubbing my head and she told my husband that I was scared that I was gonna die. And she was like, you're not gonna die with me and Asha here. And they were both so gentle. And that was. Again, one of the only other times that I felt safe with someone and I didn't even know her. There was no relationship, but she just gave that little bit of like, I've got you, you're okay. We're not going to let anything happen. And so that was great. And we, I, they, they showed me Samson, they dropped the sheet and I was like, Hey, I feel nothing. Like I just, I just want him now so you can leave me alone. And then we did, and we had skin to skin and whatever. And the. hospital stay was horrible because I just wanted to go home. Yeah, so yeah, it was it was not anything I pictured. It was the opposite. Yeah, but I mean, yeah, that's just how it is. Oh my goodness. And so because you said how old's Atticus? So Atticus is 18 months. 18 months. Okay. And so after you had Samson, like, you know, because when you said that you went in and you kind of thought that the system, you weren't like fully, I guess, committed to the idea that the system was working against you, I guess. For most people, you know, we are brought up to believe that the system is there to help us. So like getting rid of that belief, you know, it takes a bit of time. Like, what was that reflection process like after Samson like, you know, Um, obviously there's a, a smallish gap between, um, yes, there is Samson. Um, you know, did you, cause I've interviewed other moms where, you know, they've said like, as soon as they were wheeling me out of the C -section, I was like, I am not doing that again. Like that's not how I'm going to be next time. I'm never coming back again. Yeah. Okay. So that was, that was me. Yeah. That was me. I literally, yeah. Yeah. It was, uh, immediately it was like this. I will never step foot in this hospital again and I won't step foot in any hospital again. I think that's what it was for me. And maybe like a couple of months after I started researching VBAC and private midwives in our area and all of that sort of stuff, home birth, that was the only option if I was ever going to have a baby again. And I did want to have another baby, but I knew that I had to work on myself because I had so much birth trauma from... the whole experience and I was over stimulated constantly. I was having nightmares, I was having flashbacks. I didn't want to be left alone with Samson. I didn't want my husband to leave the house. I didn't want to be by myself but I didn't want other people around. There was just so much emotion and feelings that were coming up and so I had to engage with a birth trauma and perinatal specialist counselor here in Perth. And I did and her name is Fiona Rogerson and she's incredible. She works with lots of women here and it was the best thing I did because I was able to clear so much of the heavy dark cloud that was overhanging from this birth and really be able to focus in on like loving my body again and being confident in my body again and reclaiming all the power that was taken from me. So yeah, I did that with her and I still see her now because she's just bloody incredible. Um, but yes, I got to, when I fell pregnant with Atticus or when we decided to try it, it was a close gap. There was like, I think Samson was nine months or something, but I was so determined that I wanted to do it differently this time. And I had already started feeling so much better and we wanted a close gap. So I just thought like, why the heck not? Why would we not do that? What also frustrates me is that, you know, when they say like, Oh, um, you know, it's. 4am you should go have a c -section. They're not also there being like, and these are the lists of risks of future pregnancies, of your future health, you know? They don't tell you those things. They don't. They don't. They say nothing. They say nothing. And I got my birth notes before I had Atticus. And not because my midwife needed them, my private midwife didn't need them, but she was like, it's a really good thing. for you to have. She was like, just because they are your notes, but also she was like, a lot of women really get like a little bit of extra like, almost like F you when they read them for empowering themselves. And like, she was like, I think that you're at the point where that's okay for you to do. It's obviously can be really traumatic for some women, but I read it and like, I didn't realize that they could take your... uterus out and you've signed that away like if you need a hysterectomy and I know when explain that to me and obviously I didn't thankfully but like what if I had like yeah you just taking that the opportunity for me to have another child away and I didn't even realize because I was so doped up like the level of consent in a hospital is like it's it's not existed you know so yeah absolutely crazy And so did you have any, so obviously, because in Perth there is a publicly funded home birth program. Yes, but you're disqualified if you have a VBAC. Yeah. Also, they wouldn't tell you that either, I bet. No, they don't. Family birth center as well. So family birth center, you're not allowed to see your class is high risk in Perth if you've had a VBAC. And there's no way of getting out of high risk in that way. So yeah, you can go, they had an in -back clinic, I think, at the tertiary hospital here and some of the other clinics they do like promote VBAC but yeah there's only like a couple of hospitals that have like good -ish results for VBACs but I wasn't interested in even like entertaining that I did say to my husband like I'm about to take a pregnancy test but I just need your 100 % support on a home birth and he was like oh okay and I was like just before I pee on the stick I mean We are, or we aren't anyway. And I need your verbal confirmation on that, you know, like a gentleman's agreement. And he was like, okay. And I came out and I was like, we're having a home birth. And he was like, oh yay. Also, holy shit, we're about to have two kids. And I was like, yeah. And obviously I acknowledge that not every woman is able to afford a private midwife. Like it costs seven grand and Medicare maybe gives you that. between $1 ,700 to $2 ,000 and still you've got to take it out of pocket first. But we had a payment plan with our midwife and we're not like, I wouldn't say that we were a high income family at all, but I made it a priority. So I went through my whole budget and we completely obliterated things that I didn't think were important for me right now being pregnant. And we put the money towards that. And then we used a bulk of our tax, both of our tax to pay off the rest. And so. I understand that there is a level of privilege there, but I also think I worked bloody hard to make sure that that happened for us. And I think, you know, you spend more than seven grand on a car, but like people are like, oh, it's like, that's just so expensive. I'm like, yeah, but we are where we are, right? You pay for it or you don't. And if you can't get into the community midwifery program for home birth, then that is really your only option. So we made it happen. And I'm really proud that we did because I would never birth any other way. Yeah. And so did you like have trouble finding a private midwife that said that they would support you? It was pretty easy. No, it was really easy. I did think that I would have an issue. I don't know why. I guess I did. There's not really much like research or like information out there about, you know, who take on feedbacks and who don't. But I did email like. couple of people from the list that I'd been researching for a couple of months. And I did ask in my email, like, do you support VBAC and how what what are the sort of like, if I go over term and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, all the things about supporting my VBAC. And a couple of them got back to me with like really generic things. And the midwife that I picked email me back and she was like, Adele, I will 100 % take on anyone. She was like, I'm free in 10 minutes. I'm going to give you a call and let's talk through it. Wow. And I like immediately clicked with her because I was like, Yes, this is my midwife. She listened to my birth story and she explained some of the things and really just sat with me in it for her 10 minutes between clients. I was like, this is my midwife. There was never any question about the VBAC. There was no, these are the risks of your uterine rupture. She emailed me some information about it and she was like, you do your own research. I'm happy to answer any questions you want, but ultimately it's not a discussion. It's not really up for discussion. We don't need to. So, um, yeah, I didn't have any issues with it at all. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. And so it took like no real convincing to get your husband on board. He was just like, okay, he was like, he was like, you do what you want to do. I'll support you. Um, obviously he was like a smidge apprehensive just because I guess it's not. the norm for most people. But he one knew how traumatizing the hospital birth was with my son. He knew how much I desired to have a vaginal birth. And we watched Birth Time together. He met my midwife with me for that first coffee catch up. And after that, he was like, just just that pure experience. I always say to people like go and just have that coffee with the midwife because they come to your house and they play with your toddler or if you don't have a kid, you know what I mean? And you realize like your husband, my husband was just like, ah, like I'm in the comfort of my own home and we're talking about birthing in this room potentially. And I don't know, just everything that he had worried, just, and it wasn't too much, but any worry he had was like alleviated with the conversations that we had. And she spent a couple of hours with us and we had cups of tea and everyone was laughing and. And I think that made him realize like, that's what you want. You want someone to walk through the pregnancy with you, right? You don't want to sit in a room for four hours for 10 minutes with someone and some obstetrician not even look up at you and be like, cool, no worries, bye. Which is what our experience was. And minutes time they won't even remember your name. Yeah, yeah. That's what our experience was together at the hospital. So he was like, holy crap, yeah, well, of course we're doing this. Yeah, yeah, amazing. And did you do the... decline any particular tests? So I do anything different in this? Yeah, so this pregnancy I didn't do the GBH, GBT, glucose, blood glucose test because I did it last time. There was no issues and also it's horrible test. And I'd done research on like other countries that don't even do it mandatory and all of that sort of stuff. And I felt comfortable doing that. We, we monitored my blood sugar and there was a bit. couple of spikes, we investigated it, deep dived it and realized that it was the gluten free substitutes that I had in my diet. So yeah, and there's so much sugar in that stuff. So we eliminated that from my diet and then we monitored for a couple of weeks and my midwife was really happy with it. So, and that was my decision. She offered it. She said that's another option. And I went with it because I thought like, okay, it would be interesting to see. And it actually benefited me greatly because I was way less tired. Yeah. Um, And then I didn't take the anti D because I have racist negative blood. Took it the first time with Samson and Samson has racist D negative blood. So we were like, no, we're good for that. I didn't do that. And we only did a 12 week scan and the 24 week scan. Didn't do any other scans. And I had been offered. She did say if I was worried about my scar, anytime we can like check. But she did also say to me like that's not something that she does routinely. It was that I'd had a dream about my scar bursting. But she did put me in touch with a scar healer here in Perth, which her name's Gigi and she was like, she's amazing too. So yeah, there was lots of alternative options rather than just like the normal tests. But I didn't, I don't think there was anything else. Oh, I didn't do the swab. Yeah. The strip. Yeah. For GBS. I didn't do that. because I didn't feel that I needed to either. So yeah, we just rejected those sorts of things and we obviously, I didn't do the antibiotics. They gave me antibiotics when I was in the hospital with Samson. I don't know why, but they did. I reckon they would have maybe argued that they didn't know when your waters had broken. Yes, that's right. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So that's what, cause I remember arguing with them about it. I said, I didn't want it. And they said to me, it was happening, whether I wanted it or not. So I was very like in my, so yeah, horrible people. I know. So yeah, there were the, there were the things that we, um, yeah, declined in that. Yeah. Cool. And did you do any, um, like different edge, obviously you didn't go to the hospital education again, but did you do any other formal education? Yeah. Yes, I did. So I did the naked Dula course. She's from the UK. She was the really cool infographics and stuff. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I did her course and she has an app and everything. It's really amazing. And it wasn't so much for like, I knew all of most of the stuff that she was talking about in terms of education. But it was also about, she does a huge part of hers is like mindset and over like think mine, I guess like hypnobirthing, but also mindset with like pain and how you can really restructure that in your brain using, you know, sense and sound and all of those sorts of things. So I guess like hypnobirthing, but she just does it in a really cool like down to earth way. And I really, really liked it. And my husband did it with me. And I think that also helped him. And she does like a lot of fear release and stuff, which really, was good for us as well. And just like body empowerment and like loving your body and like feeling yourself, which I think I needed because I guess I had had this story of your body failed, your body failed, we helped you so much and you still failed. In my head, I had to really like work through that as well. So I did that. And I also saw my counselor all the time and we did a sensitive birth plan together, which helped me really get down if I did need a hospital transfer or. for any reason something had veered from the normal that I could be protected still with my private midwife. I saw an acupuncturist and she's a Chinese medicine practitioner and she's also a midwife. I did lots of stuff with her about pressure points and I guess just like more fear release and meditation stuff. Um, which isn't so much like formal education, but I was seeing her and so yeah, we did lots and lots of stuff and she really like changed the game for me, like mentally and stuff, which was awesome. So yeah, I did lots and lots of body work this time. Um, and I think it really played a big part in how prepared I was mentally for the game that birth is. Yeah. Um, did you have any like, or was it ever placed the fear placed on you about, you know, that shorter? I guess in some respects duration between Samson and Atticus. No, that was never ever discussed. Not by any of my birth team. People around me, sure. Yeah, because everybody thinks they know better than you, right? Yeah, yeah. There was obviously a lot. Was send the baby back? Yeah, yeah. It's done now. Yeah. Yeah, there was lots of that. But I think for me, I think I've done so much work. I just knew that that was like their own fears just bouncing off of them. So yeah, my birth team never, never ever discussed. Is there, I've had a couple of people on from Perth, but I don't think I've ever asked this. Like, is there much of a home birth community in Perth? Like, did you connect with other home birth moms during this time? Yes. So we have a home birth Facebook page here. and it's run by a doula and a birth photographer. And she does birth circles here in Perth. And there is a really big, I think, community of women that are turning to home birth. First time moms and then lots of VBAC moms. And so there was lots of women that I reached out to and Ashley Winning's VBAC home birth group, I joined there as well. And that was a great resource as well to have, because you just get to share with other women and like people. you ask questions and it just feels like a really safe community. So I think I would say that there's quite a big home birth community here. And I think a couple of things play into that. I think lockdowns here where I'm sure they were everywhere else, but here we had obviously people were birthing by themselves without their partners. And I'm sure that happened to everywhere in Australia, but it seems like a lot more people that weren't probably interested in home birth before started looking at that as a serious option. And, So yeah, I think it's quite a big movement of women, especially now. So yeah. It's quite similar, I think, in Melbourne as well, especially with COVID and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Hospital was not the place you wanted to be, of course. No, absolutely not. Well, I feel like lots of people didn't. I can't understand the logic of wanting to be birthing like normally. physiologically in a place where it's all of the sick people. Yes. I don't understand that. Yeah, I know. But yeah, it's amazing for promoting women's choice because yeah, like I think about this so much, like home birth isn't for everyone. That's not what anyone's saying. But everyone should know that, you know, it's a totally legitimate option. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I think so. Right now it's, yeah, in some circles, in lots of circles still it's still like this hippie like weird alternative really risky. Yes. Yeah I definitely experienced that when I told everyone like I apart from my grandma she was a hundred percent on board which is so funny because she's in her eighties and she's like girl you get it like this is the best. She had my uncle in hospital first one and then she had my dad and my other uncle at home so she knows the difference and she was like It was incredible for her physiologically as well. So she was so on board, but obviously like a lot of other people were like, oh my God, my cousin said this really interesting thing to me. And she said to me, why would you want a birth at home and have the most traumatic experience in a place that you feel safe? And I said to her, like, I think you're going to get mixed up. My experience is the most traumatic place is the hospital where I don't feel safe. Yeah. I'm not going to have any traumatic experience at home because I feel safe there." And she was like, huh? It was like this whole thing. It was just so interesting that she said that to me. And it was like, birth is always traumatic. And I was like, I don't know if there's women, not everyone agrees with you there. You know what I mean? It was just so interesting that she said that. And so she assumed that you would bring that trauma into your house. And I was like, yeah, that's not going to work that way for me. So tell us about like the lead up to having Atticus then. Yeah, so we we prepared our birth space. We moved our couch out. I wanted to birth in the pool. So we set up like our theater room, I guess with like lights and my husband's strong all these like twinkle lights everywhere for us and we moved everything out and we had like the birth ball and I had like affirmations up. had pictures up of all of our family, my husband's mom and dad came from the UK and they came to stay with us and they were going to take Samson on a staycation while we had the baby. We were just really excited, started having that prodromal labor and I was getting really excited and it would fizzle and we started and it would fizzle. We just kept trying to watch as many oxytocin filled movies as possible. I was eating dates because I was like, yep, let's go. I know that none of that stuff actually like really potentially could work, but I was like, I just enjoyed the date boats, you know? I loved the peanut butter with the dates and they were frozen and it was really hot. So I was like, yep, let's go. We were just doing as much fun stuff as we could and not putting any pressure on it. And I had an acupuncture appointment on his guest -mated date. And I... went and she was like, we're just going to make you feel like a goddess today because this is your like goddess starting day. And I was like, yeah, I am a goddess because that was like my mantra. Every time we did like meditation and release after my acupuncture, it would be like, you're a birthing goddess. So she was like, yep, you're a goddess. Like, we're opening the chapter of goddess phase right now. So I had this like incredible hour and a half at her house and I could feel like something niggling and I was like, just ignore it, like go home. We had a fun day planned with Samson. We were like, this is, you know, our last family day maybe as, as three. So we just soaked it all up. And then the Padroma labor kept happening. Like it would ramp up towards like 10 o'clock and then I'd wake up the next day and be like, nothing. And then that went on to like maybe Wednesday and how many weeks might have you been? I think I was. 41 and no 40 and two or something like it was there was no it wasn't serious like no one should have been getting excited and I was like trying to chill but also I was like and my midwife is like look my suggestion would be ask your parents -in-law to take Samson on the staycation now she's like worst case scenario you and Ash have a couple of days together just the two of you which is really lovely best case scenario you feel safe enough that you're in the cave and baby is also in the cave being looked after and you can fully move in to your space that you need to get into. And I was like, okay, because that was like, I kept having like worry about him waking up in the middle of the night and crying and not knowing where I was and all that stuff. So we did the plan. I packed his bag. We said goodbye to him. He was so excited. He got to stay at Crown and like they look fully just doted on him. Yeah, he was like He got a real serious five -star Resort sort of staycation from his grandparents. So bless him. He was having the time of his life. I had to Ball my eyes out in the shower because that's the first time he's left me And that's okay. I needed to do that. And then we went to the shops. We stopped up on everything. I I could feel more intense surges coming. And I had to stop a couple of times and breathe through them at the shops. And I was like, okay, this might be happening, but try and ignore it Adele, ignore it till you can't anymore. And we got home, put on Brooklyn Nine-Nine and I was like, right, it's go time, bouncing on the ball, just trying to sway or keep moving. And then my husband was probably about nine, he like, let's jump into bed. getting like a nice sleep. Yeah. Samson's not here and we co -sleep. So, you know, with the first time that he could sleep. I was going to say spread out, but like 40 weeks pregnant, there's probably not like a lot of spreading out. No, there wasn't, but that's okay. So we, um, I got into bed and then probably around two, I probably couldn't ignore them anymore. The serges were kind of quite intensely. So I jumped out, got in the shower, um, let Ash sleep. So I was like, It's kind of nice. My midwife is like, it's really nice to go in inward and give yourself that space before anyone else gets there. So that's what I did. And I was in the shower for a couple of hours and then I was like, Oh, I don't know if I can do this by myself anymore. So I woke Ash up and I was like, I need some help. So he put some hot packs together. We made like big wheat bags made out of pillows and so that they could go across the whole front and the whole back. So I was having like back labor and front. So he did that and he's like, do you want me to ring the midwife? And I was like, Absolutely not. I don't think this is serious yet. She's just gonna go home and I will not send her home. He was like, he was like, are you sure? I was like, nope, I'll get back in the shower. So I go back in the shower and then came out the shower and had the heat packs again. And I was like, just trying to find a comfortable position. I was like swaying and using like just anything I can grasp onto. And he was like, oh, you're like making different kinds of noises. And I was like, no, I'm not. He was like, I'm gonna call her. And I was like, don't you dare call her. And he was like, just going to call and I'm just going to let her know anyway. He rang her and she's like, is it a adult article for me? He's like, no, she's not. He's like, but I think you need to come. And I guess, and that moment I had to trust that he knew what was happening more than I knew what was happening. And that's what his role was to do. So I did have to trust him in that. And she got here about maybe 45 minutes later and I could talk through like in between the surges. So I thought like, or I must not be like serious. Maybe I just can't tolerate the pain because I couldn't in the hospital. And it was a different kind of pain. It was nowhere near as horrible as the craziness that the centosyn drip was, but it was like quite intense. And then I heard her pull up and her car door closed and I heard her come inside and my whole body just like shifted. And I just felt like this really relaxed, but also like, I can do this." It was so weird. She put her hand on my back and I was like, yep, we're going. This is serious. It was so good. It was so good. It was so nice because it was a beautiful juxtaposition to the first birth that I'd had. I didn't have anyone that I trusted and loved and that I deeply felt connected to. She got here and I was like, I feel almost so held. My husband's doing a great job, but there's nothing like being held by another woman, I feel. in that moment and it was just so lovely and I knew that this was like this was happening now and then maybe I don't know how long after but she was like Ash is filling up the birth pool and we're gonna move into it and I was like oh my god I'm gonna have this baby in a birth pool you know I'd been like dreaming and manifesting this in my mind for like nine months and I was like just the pure fact I get to go into the water when I want yeah when I've been dreaming of this I was like this is an achievement in itself. Yeah. So we got in the pool and I just loved being in the pool because like I just, it was a, it was an element of weightlessness, but also like my body felt like again, it took another level of like, okay, like this is really gonna happen now. And I just really felt in tune with myself. I felt so much in control of my body and no one was touching me and no one was telling me what to do. And no one was like, telling me that I should have to get on the bed and now we have to check you or you can't do this. No one did anything, no one touched me unless I asked them to or they said, can I touch you? You know what I mean? It was all full, it was my whole autonomy in my own body. It was so different and so amazing. And then a couple of hours later, he crowned and he was out and I was like, oh my God, I did it. I did it, I did it. Because I didn't have that experience before. I didn't get to go through all of that. And to birth your baby, I think is such an amazing rite of passage. And I really, really desired it in the way I wanted it to go. And for me, that was. Yeah. Did you have like a crisis of confidence at some point? I think I did. So he was sort of doing that rocking it up and down. on my pelvic bone, or my pubic bone, sorry. And he would come down and then I could feel him go up a little bit. And he would like come down and sort of stretch my perineum and then sort of go back up again. And I said to my midwife, like, why isn't he coming down? And she was like, Adele, he is doing exactly what he needs to do. She was like, that stretch is exactly what you need to happen. It's like your body and that baby are communicating perfectly and don't think that that's not what's supposed to happen. She was like, this is absolutely physiologically appropriate for your body. Yeah. And I was like, okay, okay, okay. But I was, I did kind of feel that cause I was like, why can't I do not do this? And it was that like panic of like, I don't know if I can push this baby out. Obviously it's not happening. And she was like, just go with it. And he did obviously come out, but yeah, it was like a tiny bit of like, Oh, I don't know if I can. Yeah. When he was like coming out, did you do your own like check or like, do you remember like when you first like, touch his hair. Yeah, so I had felt him all the way as I could feel him coming down when I did have that crisis of faith sort of thing. She was like, if you feel comfortable, like go on and have a feel and check where he is. So I put my finger in and I could feel hair and I was like, oh my God. And so I sort of kept my hands there the whole time because it would like sort of sped me on every time I was a bit worried. I just sort of check, make sure he's there and I could feel like more and more head. And I was like, oh. I don't know, it's such a weird, cool feeling, isn't it? You're like, oh my God. Yeah, I loved being able to feel in control of my own body, even in that sense, you know? So yeah, it was the most incredible experience I've ever had, I think. And so then he was born into the water and you like picked him up. Yeah, I picked him up and scooped him onto my chest and my midwife helped me like just keep him there, because I think I was a little bit like, oh. with all the emotion, my husband was there and he like had, they had their hands on my hand. No one ever like touched the baby. Cause that was a really important thing for me as well. Um, and so we all just sort of sat there together, the three of us and they had their hand on my hand and on my, on my shoulders and they were both like, you did it. I was like, I really did do it. I can't believe it. Yeah. And so Samson's still on his staycation, right? Yes. Yeah. Loving his life. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And so, um, So there's the two midwives, your husband and yourself. Yeah. Anybody else? No, just us. Yeah. Wow. And so after he's born, did you stay in the pool for long or? Yeah, so I did. I stayed in the pool for, I think it was probably about an hour maybe. So initially like I could, I had like the contractions of the Fulmipel Center and I guess I I think I knew instinctively that I had torn and I was feeling quite sore and I didn't really want to like give it a little bit of a push. And so I sort of just like stayed there in it for a bit. And my midwife was like, look, you totally fine to stay in the pool. She's like, but if you would like to, we can like sort of jump out and see if that helps with gravity. And so I stood up and I was like, I feel lightheaded. And she put me straight back down. She was like, okay, let's just chill for a bit. So they took some water out, put more hot water, warm water in for me and I'm at a kiss. And we just stayed in there for like two hours and then eventually she was like, whenever you're ready, like just give it a push that you don't have to, you can take your time. And so about two hours after he was born, I birthed a placenta. Yeah. And then that just sort of like sat in the bowl with us for a while. And then we slowly like tied the, cut the cord and tied the knot and stuff. But yeah, it was like a really relaxing time that was not stressful in any way. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And just like such a contrast to your first experience and like even, you know, even being like not pressured to like birth the placenta like two hours. Yeah. Oh my goodness. I don't even, I don't know. There's, there wouldn't be a lot of women in Australia that have been allowed to, you know, have that time, you know, especially. Um, like in a host, mostly in a hospital setting because like they're on such a rigid schedule. Um, wow. And yeah. Oh my gosh. Like I just like such a contrast, such a contrast. Yeah. It really is. Very magical. And, um, did that sort of like heal things that had come up with like Samson's birth then? I don't think it healed it. I think I had done a lot of healing myself. I think what it did do is it helped me reclaim the power that I had taken off of me in a sense. And I guess that maybe is a healing, but I never wanted to put that much pressure on that birth to heal like the first birth, because that's so much pressure. But I do think it was redemptive in so many ways. And I think it did heal the part of me that thought the narrative that I am broken and I needed help. And your body couldn't do it. Yeah, my body couldn't do it. So in a way, I guess there is a sense of healing. But it was it was really redemptive and it was a real like I will reclaim my body and my autonomy and my birth and my baby and also my vagina because no one did anything except me to my vagina. And that's a start. like a vast contrast as well because every two hours someone was sticking their fingers inside me and also then the student midwife too. So it was like, I had so much almost like trauma from that, you know, so that was a big thing for me. So yeah, there was so much that I was able to reclaim back that was stripped from me the first time. And I don't think that personally I have found on this journey working with my counselor, I don't think I will ever fully heal. from that birth, there will still be things that come up. But that birth did heal and did give me a lot that I had taken from me, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I, well, I guess, can you speak to like how your postpartum has sort of been with Atticus in comparison to with Samson? Yeah, I, it's like a vast difference. Exactly the same as. birth, I think that it was the polar opposite. It was such a gentle, soft landing into postpartum. It was like, you know, I had got out the pool and I got into bed and my midwife just sat with us and she was there for five or six hours after the birth. And you know, it was just even those couple of like, just having the baby on me the whole time. Like that was a huge thing too, because at the hospital they just put Sanson into a cot, like next to me and you just... some reason I didn't think like just pick him up. We had my parents -in -law here so there was like people, my mother -in -law is Hindu and she cooks the most beautiful like khichri and she cooked all these warming soups and hot meals and we had her and my father -in -law. cleaning the house and looking after Samson and my brother -in -law came too and he was running around with Samson and so Ash and I could just sit in this bubble with this new baby. So this postpartum was the best postpartum I think I could have ever imagined for, you know? It was so, so exactly how I'm sure it's supposed to be intended and what I needed because that first postpartum was horrendous. And I didn't feel like scared or worried or anything. It was almost like I was like, no, do leave me alone because I can do this. And everyone's like, we're not leaving you alone. We're, we're creating this safe bubble around you. And I was like, yeah, but if I wanted you to, I could do it by myself. You know, it was always like that. You know, like I had so much more power and like confidence in myself. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's your house and yeah, your space. Yeah. Have you had a chance to talk to your cousin about it? Yeah, I have. And she actually said to me, she's not going to have another baby. But if she did, she would consider having a home birth. Wow. So I thought. You've got the cogs turning and that's a win. Yeah. And so, yeah. And actually, one of my other cousins had a VBAC about two months before I did with Atticus. And she has said that her next birth will be at home. Wow. Yeah. So I'm like. starting to spread the glitter. Yeah. That's amazing. Thank you so much for sharing those stories. Do you have anything else that we haven't talked about or anything you'd like to say? I don't know. I think probably the biggest thing that I wanted to say was I don't think that our home birth is for everyone, but I do think that you should remember that. the safest place for you to give birth is the place that you feel safest. And I don't think that there is any, there is correlation between that and women have been given birth at home for thousands and thousands of years before us. And I think that that's something that we should pay attention to. That's what I want to say. Thank you so so much. That's all right. Thank you for having me and thank you for this um this podcast I honestly I love it I love listening to all of the women that you interview and it just it's such a great space to take that taboo of of Home birth and you know the scariest thing out of it because it really isn't it's the most beautiful pure thing you'd ever experience I think yeah, and we're just normal people. We're not like yeah, I mean I would love to be a hippie, but I'm not a hippie. Yeah, you know yeah We're just everyday people. Thank you so much. Thank you.