Welcome to episode 27! In this weeks episode, Nathalie shares her journey to finding homebirth, after having a very negative experience in the hospital system, further complicated by the label of gestational diabetes. Nathalie thought that she could navigate the system with her GDM diagnosis, however over half way through her 2nd pregnancy, her doula suggested finding a homebirth private midwife to support her, and from there she discovered homebirth. We also reflect on how her anxiety was used against her, and how it impacted her pregnancy and birth experiences, and we also discuss post partum.
Links to people/business/resources for this episode:
CHAPTERS
00:53
Natalie's Hospital Birth Journey
06:32
Learning About Home Birth
08:28
Natalie's First Pregnancy and Hospital Birth
09:27
Disjointed Care and Gestational Diabetes Diagnosis
12:14
Exploring Home Birth as an Option
16:30
Navigating the Hospital Pathway
25:35
Reflecting on the Birth Experience
28:26
Pregnancy with Remy and Gestational Diabetes
32:15
Increased Nuchal Translucency and Anxiety
35:41
Considering Home Birth with a Private Midwife
36:47
Finding a Private Midwife
39:10
Mental Health Support during Pregnancy
40:09
Dealing with Gestational Diabetes
42:57
Pregnancy Challenges and Health Anxiety
45:13
Preparing for Birth with Education and Support
48:29
Going into Labor with Remy
52:33
Midwife Delay and Birth Pool
55:50
Birth Experience and Postpartum
01:05:08
Feeling Empowered and Postpartum Challenges
Welcome to episode 27! In this weeks episode, Nathalie shares her journey to finding homebirth, after having a very negative experience in the hospital system, further complicated by the label of gestational diabetes. Nathalie thought that she could navigate the system with her GDM diagnosis, however over half way through her 2nd pregnancy, her doula suggested finding a homebirth private midwife to support her, and from there she discovered homebirth. We also reflect on how her anxiety was used against her, and how it impacted her pregnancy and birth experiences, and we also discuss post partum.
Links to people/business/resources for this episode:
CHAPTERS
00:53
Natalie's Hospital Birth Journey
06:32
Learning About Home Birth
08:28
Natalie's First Pregnancy and Hospital Birth
09:27
Disjointed Care and Gestational Diabetes Diagnosis
12:14
Exploring Home Birth as an Option
16:30
Navigating the Hospital Pathway
25:35
Reflecting on the Birth Experience
28:26
Pregnancy with Remy and Gestational Diabetes
32:15
Increased Nuchal Translucency and Anxiety
35:41
Considering Home Birth with a Private Midwife
36:47
Finding a Private Midwife
39:10
Mental Health Support during Pregnancy
40:09
Dealing with Gestational Diabetes
42:57
Pregnancy Challenges and Health Anxiety
45:13
Preparing for Birth with Education and Support
48:29
Going into Labor with Remy
52:33
Midwife Delay and Birth Pool
55:50
Birth Experience and Postpartum
01:05:08
Feeling Empowered and Postpartum Challenges
Hi, welcome to Birthing at Home, a podcast. I'm Elsie, your host. I'm a home birth mom of two little boys. I'm a mental health nurse, a home birth advocate broadly, but also more specifically in the state of Victoria, and I'm an ex -student midwife. Before we begin, I would like to acknowledge the Wurundjeri people who are the traditional custodians of the land I'm recording on in Melbourne, Australia. I would also like to acknowledge the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples have been birthing at home, on country, for tens of thousands of years prior to the British invasion and acknowledge that sovereignty has never been ceded. Episode 27 is shared by Natalie, mum to two little boys from Newcastle and she's also the founder of the Home Birth Newcastle group. Natalie shares her hospital birth journey with Isaac in 2020, which she assumed would be a positive experience. However, after being given a gestational diabetes diagnosis, she ended up being kicked out of the midwifery group practice and into disjointed care. At around 25 weeks into Natalie's second pregnancy with Remy, with the support of her doula, she chose to seek out a private midwife and plan a home birth with individualist and woman -centered care that could better support her with her anxiety and any concerns about gestational diabetes. This story exemplifies how different the birth culture in Australia could be if the maternity system that almost 99 % of women enter was able to provide truly woman-centered care and individualized care. And finally, you enjoyed this episode please rate or review it on Spotify or Apple podcast it really really helps people to find Because that's the whole point of these stories is so that they can be shared and other women can learn and be inspired to enjoy. Welcome Natalie to Birthing at Home, a podcast. Thanks for having me. Of course. We were just catching up about how you have two little boys and I have two little boys as well. Yeah. Yeah. I've got Isaac who's three and Remy who just turned 14 months. Yeah, amazing. And you're in Newcastle? Yes, I live in Newcastle with my husband and yeah, I had Isaac, my firstborn in hospital in 2020 and then I had Remy at home at the end of 2022. Yeah, okay. And I guess. We're also just catching up about how you started Home Birth Newcastle. Is that what you guys call it? A Home Birth Newcastle? Yes. Yeah. I just sort of had all these, it felt like serendipitous meetings with people just out and about who just happened to have had home births. And then I just thought, oh, wouldn't it be great if there was a way to bring them all together? And I realized there was no group locally. And I thought, oh, maybe I'll just have to start it myself. And yeah, so I did that in June and started it. And that was really nice because there's only a handful of private midwives in our area. Like it's not like you had to have a private midwife or anything, but it means that yeah, a lot of us did have the same midwife. And so that's nice, bonding over that and yeah, lots of shared experiences and so I've just got like a place. Yeah. Did you start it in June, 2023? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. It was really weird. I had this, um, I was sitting at my local coffee shop and this guy saw me with my baby and started asking how old he was and then saying that he had a baby at a similar age. And I don't know why I did, but I just said, I asked where his baby was born and he said, Oh, actually at home. And then he started telling like this whole story. And we found out that. We both had, um, like his wife had the same midwife as me. What? Yeah. And then, so like, I just connected with her and, and I just said, I really need to get all of us together. And that's the day I decided to do it. Yeah. Actually, um, I went to the, cause I have made some home birth, um, shirts to try and like support the podcast. Like the shirts say home birth mama and then once you say born at home, but. I went to the printing place yesterday because I had to ask them some questions and one of the product guys came out and he was like helping me and he was like, Oh, actually my wife had an accidental home birth. And I was like, that's crazy. And of course his, you know, he was like, Oh, thank God that the ambulance came because like who would have delivered it? And inside I was thinking your wife. It would have been okay. But I just thought, yeah, I wonder how many people actually, you know, we see it in the stats that like, it's less than 1 % or something. I find that so hard to believe now because I have so much made so many connections online and in person with all these people have had home births. Now when I hear someone had a birth in hospital, I'm like, oh, really? Like, it feels like, like, that's the weird thing now because I'm just so, yeah, it's just who you talk. isn't it? Yeah, yeah. But I guess we are the minority. Yeah, exactly. Hopefully that'll change, though. Hopefully, hopefully. I think, yeah, like I feel maybe I've mentioned this before, but Victoria is getting another three publicly funded home birth programs. There's already two that there's like was already one and now a two another two have started like this month. So yeah, like that should like increase the rate. Absolutely. I'm not sure if you can hear, I hope not, but my children are screaming in the background. No, I can't hear anything. I'm lucky mine are outside at the moment. We do have the publicly funded one here in Newcastle, but I'm not eligible for it. I can't talk about, so. Yeah. Yeah. Do you want to, I guess, like going way back there before Isaac even, like when did you like learn about birthing your babies that you could birth your babies at home? Was that after Isaac or? Yeah, like when I was pregnant with Isaac, a friend was pregnant at the same time having her third and she was having a, she decided late on to have a home birth because her baby's come quite quickly. And she'd been with Belmont, like that's our publicly funded one for all three births, but they can do home or birthing center. And she had decided to have the third one at home. And I just remember thinking, oh, okay. Well, I don't think I'd be brave enough to do that. Like that's the only thought I had. Like I thought it was cool, but I just, I didn't know much about home birth when I was pregnant with Isaac. It's not something I would have considered when I was pregnant with Isaac. Yep. Because I assumed it would be a positive experience in the hospital, but it wasn't. Wow. So yeah, that's what got me interested in it, I suppose. I think it like, I always had this vision of birthing, like having physiological births and because my mum had all three of us relatively easily. I think the first that my eldest brother, she did have an epidural and had a long labor for him but then the next two she said, yeah, very quick. Like she wasn't like super positive about birth but she's quite a natural sort of person and she had relatively good experiences with birth but she still, she doesn't love birth like the way I do. But I think I just had a vision, yeah, I'll probably have similar births to her. Yeah, why not? Yeah, so I was with the... group practice, not the home birth one, but our local hospital, the John Hunter has a group, yeah, midwifery group practice where you birth at the birth center at John Hunter. Yeah. And that's supposed to be the, you know, lower intervention sort of thing. Like, as you know, about group practice. So that's what I was signed up for with Isaac. Yeah. But I think due to COVID possibly, I don't know. I just, yeah, I really hadn't met anybody. I just was seeing my GP a bit and I think I did a little bit of shared care with her and while I was waiting to get in, see if I got into this home birthing, sorry not home birthing, group practice. I got a call to say, yeah, you got in. But then I just didn't hear from anyone for ages and then I finally heard from this midwife. I must have been, I don't know, I think I must have been getting up close to, like 25 weeks or something like that. I had seen some midwives like at our local center, there's like different, you know, centers where you can see the midwives so you don't have to go into the hospital. So I had seen a couple of random midwives there. I hadn't found it very good. I didn't really click with them very well. And yeah, so I heard I got into this program, thought, great, that's when it's all gonna go right. And I'm gonna get proper care and all that. And I met... this midwife once, she seemed great. And then I had my glucose tolerance test. And I never thought I would have gestational diabetes. I had no risk factors for it. And then, yeah, I had it. Basically my fasting was 5 .1, which is literally... the lowest you can be diagnosed. And then like with the drink, I was 6 .0 for both with the drinks, so that's way below. So I was sort of like, oh, that doesn't seem very serious. But straight away I was told, yeah, no more grip practice. And then I just had very disjointed care through the John Hunter. And you see like an obstetric registrar, but it's never the same one. And you sit there waiting for like, two hours for your appointment, three or five minute appointment. And then also I like kept dropping off their list and then there was like no appointment made for me. And I went for weeks where I no appointment was coming up and then I called them and they'd like have no record of me and stuff. So, yeah. And I don't know that they might've said, Oh, COVID or something. I don't know what, but basically. When I was seeing them it was all, you're high risk because of this, even though it was only ever my fasting that was just above and no matter what I ate I never went over. I was eating really healthy but then I'd experiment sometimes, have something that should send me over and it didn't. So it showed it was not a problem with my eating. I wasn't being affected by what I ate. It was just... I don't know. That's actually what my fasting is. So whether I'm pregnant or not, my fasting always sits about 5 .1. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know why. Yeah. I don't think it's gestational diabetes. I think it's just me. Yeah. Yeah. Just my body doing what it's meant And when you're not pregnant, they're not worried about that number when you are pregnant. Yeah. Yeah. They are. Yeah. So inconsistent. And yeah, I've been wanting to do this, but I'm so curious. Like, You know, you said that the the cutoff was, um, you know, 5 .1, but you, you know, I've also shared stories and listened to stories where, like, you know, you go to a different hospital or you go to a different part of like the state or the city or whatever. And it's like a different, yeah, sometimes it's 5 .5. So in that case, I would have still been with a group practice. Yeah, that's crazy. That's absolutely crazy. Um, and like, what was your like partner's experience like through this? Like, what, I guess you don't really know what you don't know, I guess. Hey. Yeah. Um, like my, is he my husband? Yeah. Yeah. I think he was just like, he thought it was pretty silly. Um, and he didn't want me to go on the insulin, but because I didn't know a lot. Like I was pretty, like I looked up Lily Nicholls who is a great forward thinking dietician who specialises in gestational diabetes and eating a moderately low carb diet rather than just doing this high carb like the hospital suggests and using insulin or yeah, she basically said it's very outdated what they're doing. and that she does more modern stuff. And there's people who are more forward thinking. Cocoon by Naomi, if you know her, she's a postpartum doler and she has launched a course as well on that. So she didn't have a course at the time, but I was following her and I was learning from her resources that she was posting as well and realizing. So I was aware, but I just, I wasn't on that front foot where, I don't know, I guess I was still a little bit influenced like, oh, you know, I don't want to do the wrong thing for my baby. So I was listening to them as well. But then I was doing my own research as well and trying to just, yeah, it was just, and it was COVID and it was locked down and it was just very overwhelming. In the end, I did agree to go on insulin just for the fasting, just like the minimum dose for fasting towards the end of the pregnancy. And yeah, they really pressured me into that I felt. And then, to find out how to actually inject it, they just sent me a YouTube video. And that was it. Oh my gosh, that's terrible. Yeah. And I was just so overwhelmed and scared and confused. And in the end I got, like if your fasting is still over 5 .1 after you do the minimum dose, they tell you to put it up by two and. They don't know anything else about you. This is all just over the phone. And I did that and then I ended up getting like a hypo and like, like shaking and getting like cold sweat in the night and all this because I shouldn't have been on it really. I don't think. Oh my God. That's atrocious. And so by being on, you know, having this label now of gestational diabetes and then also being like an insulin controlled. Yeah, they called me an insulin dependent. Oh my god. Diabetic. Oh my god. And I was like, I don't think I am diabetic. Like it's just not acting in that way. And then in the end I said, this is dangerous. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to get a private endocrinologist. And she did go along the same lines, but at least she would. listen to me a bit more and she was a bit more like, yeah, you probably don't need to put it up if it's 5 .1, but if it's going above that and it's for a few days in a row, then we might think about putting it up. And in the end, I just stayed on the minimum dose just to keep it around five. Yeah. Did all of this then influence like the pressure or the recommendations to have scans and induction and that classic? So I had all that. He was measuring 50th percentile for everything. So there's nothing they could say. They couldn't say he's too small or he's too big. Yeah, everything was just looking perfect to them and all my numbers were good. But because of that, you know, insulin dependent diabetic label, even though I was having a very healthy pregnancy, yeah, they wanted me to be induced at 38 weeks. But I knew that wasn't right. So I just, yeah, it was very stressful every time I went in, like you felt like you're having to put up a fight for every appointment. Every appointment, there was no point, like they weren't really looking after me. All they were doing was saying, okay, when can we book you in basically? And then I'd have to say, look at my scans, look at my numbers. Like I don't. And they said it's a blanket rule. That's the term they used. So I was very angry. I felt so angry at the whole system. I felt like no one, I was just in a number that I was being treated. Yeah. Like, like the most severe case when I was the most mild case, if I even had this thing. Yeah. So they see it in black and white and they don't see like, you know, all of the shades in between the black and white. It's not like individualized in that way. That's. That's like scary that they have. It was and I felt, yeah, I just felt like I needed to fight and I needed to do something differently. So I knew like, but it just, it was COVID and everything. Like I had no other care. I didn't know really about private midwives. I just felt like I had no options. Yeah. So how did you find out about this hospital pathway? Was it that you went to the GP and the GP said, left, right, private, public, or did you just have this idea? Yeah, and she even crossed out Belmont, the midwifery group practice. Huh. And she had always been a good GP to me. I think she's good, but then when it comes to birth, she's just so conservative. So yeah, she put a big X through that and she goes, oh, you won't want to do that one. And I didn't even question it at the time because I didn't know anything about it. I just was like, oh, okay, well I'll do the John Hunter one. Terrible. Yeah, but that's how many GPs are. Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's just yeah, I wrote an email quite a few weeks ago to the. Whatever college of GPs and I didn't expect a reply and I still haven't received a reply, but like I don't I just don't like the GPs are like they're the gatekeepers for so many women's, you know, health care choices. And if you're automatically crossing things off women's list, the women. don't even know what's on the list. Exactly. And my doctor, this doctor, I went to her at six weeks. Um, and she, I didn't really care for a checkup for myself. It was only for my son, but, um, they sort of like, Oh no, we booked both of you in. And then she just spent my appointment marvelling at the fact that, Oh, you had it, had him at home. And then she's like, in a pool. I've never heard of. Cool, what did it look like? Can you show me a picture? And like, yeah, she had never, never didn't know anything about it. And she does shed care. Oh no. And I like her for all the medical, you know, actual medical problems when it comes to birth, like, it's heartbreaking. It's just, that's just standard. Wow. And so with Isaac then, Did you eventually succumb to having an induction? No, well sort of. So we agreed, I agreed with, there was one, because I saw a different person every time and one of the obstetricians, she was actually quite nice and she said, okay, like I'm taking into account what you're saying and I think 39 and five would be appropriate. And we settled on that. Looking back, it's like, Of course I didn't need to do that. But the good thing is my water's broke at 39 and 3. Yeah, nice. So yeah, water's broke and then, but looking back, you know, I did everything how I definitely shouldn't have. Even though I thought I knew so much and I thought I was so ahead of all the things they were trying to do to me. I still called the hospital straight away like, oh, my water's broken. And they're like, Oh, you should come in like as soon as you can. And like, there's no reason to like it was clear. It was more of a trickle really. And yeah, I felt fine. And after about half an hour I was getting really mild contractions and they're like, Oh, come in. So I went in and then actually I said to them on the phone, I'll only come in if you promise that if everything's fine, I can go home to labor. Cause that's what I wanted to do. Yeah. And I went and they said, yeah, of course, why if everything's fine, of course you can go home. I went in, everything was great, no issues. And then they went, oh, you got gestational diabetes. You have to get the obstetrician to sign off. And then like, I heard someone in the corridor go, who let her go this long? And I was just like, actually it was. an obstetrician that I'd saw like just last week and also that's ridiculous but. Oh my god. Yeah and I actually I was sat in the room for ages and I think this is already setting me up for a bad labor. Yeah. And I yeah I was in the room for ages and um I just said to them I said to the midwife because I'd heard on Australian birth stories that you can sign a waiver to leave. Yeah. I mean it could have just walked out really but I didn't know that. But I said, can I sign something so I can go and labor at home now because I, you know, I just don't feel that's a reason for me to be here. And they said, yeah, that's fine. We think that's fine. So just sign it. And the midwives agreed that I would be totally fine to go home. So I did stay at home for a bit. But the whole time I was at home, I think I felt like naughty. Yeah, like you're in trouble. Yeah. Yeah. Or I was putting my baby at risk or I was reckless or, you know, that kind of thing. And, um, then I was finding the labor quite painful. A lot of it was in my back and I was starting to think, oh, maybe the baby's coming and you know, I'll, I really should get to the hospital. So I only labored at home for a few hours. And yeah, I was nowhere near like I ended up from water's breaking to having him. It was 30 hours. So yeah, I mean, like, obviously we don't need to go through the whole birth, but it was every, it was, yeah, I was very, I didn't cope well with it at all and I had morphine, I think, or if that's what they call it, where they inject it like locally in the leg. And that actually brought on like a panic attack for me and took me back to a time that I was in hospital with heart things, because it made me feel like my heart was stopping and I'd had a heart attack before. And yeah, so I was having all this anxiety and I felt like I was dying and then I had... Awesome. So really great for birthing babies. Yeah. So, and the midwives, some were nice, but some weren't so nice. And so it was a mixed bag and I met a lot of midwives over the time. And then I had, they eventually augmented it because of the broken waters. Um, and then they, I had an epidural, but it only worked on one side. So then I was like stuck on the bed with one side in agony and then one side. I couldn't feel so I couldn't move around. So I felt it felt like torture. And then I pushed for two and a half hours and they wouldn't let me take a break. Even though I said, can I just have one break? They wouldn't let me. I don't really know why. And then I ended up having an episiotomy and four steps delivery. So. Wow. That's sort of just like intense. Yeah. And then I apparently got postpartum preeclampsia as well. I just like... There's so many problems in this story, but like I, I'm always, I always, I really hate gestational diabetes. Yeah. Like so much. But without it, I don't think I would have had a home birth second time around. So. Yeah. I mean, that's true. That's, you know, yeah, that, that is true. Like that is just how life works. and you know, you can use them as like lessons, I guess. But how terrible because like what I find sad about these stories that I hear that are often, you know, before somebody learns about home birth is that there are so many women out there who have no idea that home birth exists and just think that this is just how it is and just block it out. because it was traumatic block it out. That's just how it is. There's no other option. I would have died. My baby would have died. Everybody would have died. Um, I never thought any of that though. Just sorry. I didn't, I think straight. Oh, I haven't told you the worst bit straight after he was born. A lady that was sort of, she was a very young woman and I would say like early twenties. I feel that maybe she was doing some sort of. training and she was trying to put a cannula in my arm at some point so I have no idea she couldn't get it in and I have no idea who she was but she was in and out a few times of no relevance to me really but at the end when he was born and he was on my chest she came in and goes oh so she finally got her shit together and no yeah and actually I hear that phrase in my head like That phrase is just stuck in my head so badly. But actually now I'm saying it, I've realised that I hadn't thought about it for a long time. So I think - Oh, I'm so sorry. Oh no, that's okay. No, I think I'm just sharing though, like- think since, oh, I've, yeah, I've written about it on Instagram and I've sent for the birth trauma inquiry. Even though I, you know, I don't think I had the worst birth in the world compared to a lot. I specifically mentioned that as something that really shouldn't have happened. Like I did have good care, some of it. I did have some midwives that I thought, why did you say that? Like, you know, counterproductive old school midwives. So I didn't want to say that my care wasn't good because some was, some wasn't, but the system sucks basically. But this lady sucked, whoever she was. I wish I knew who she was so I could like put in a complaint, but I didn't at the time. And now I just, I wouldn't have any way to identify her. Yeah. Wow. Um, so it's like literally yet no surprise. Well, I mean, it is a bit of a surprise, but I can like, understand a hundred percent why you would choose a home birth. Yeah, but I didn't, I didn't have home birth in my mind already. As soon as I'd given birth to Isaac, the first thing I thought, or like when I was still in hospital with him, I thought next birth, everything's going to be different. I just had that thought. But I never considered home birth. My plan was I'm going to figure out a way to have my fasting five on the day of the gestational diabetes test because I know that sometimes my fasting is five. I'll prick my finger before I go and make sure it's a good day or whatever for the test and I'll go with the group practice. That was my plan. So when I got pregnant with Remy, I It was like nearly, well, there's like, yeah, nearly two and a half years age gap between them. But yeah, when I got pregnant with Remy, the first thing I thought was, I'm going to get in early to the endocrinologist, get on the front foot and tell her, you know, I'm pregnant. I want to figure out a way to like figure out what is going on with these blood sugars. So I wore a CGM, like the continuous glucose monitor. Yep. And just to look and what I found was I was having a lot of lows Like there's a lot of times where I was in the threes with my blood sugar. Yeah, but upon waking I'll spike to that sort of 5 .1 Yeah, but I had like healthy low to sometimes I was thinking is it too low blood sugar throughout the day? Yeah, and I showed her the graphs and everything and all she said was How did you get one of those? And I was like, oh no, here we go again. It's this whole like gatekeeping sort of, I know better than you. And maybe, yeah, you know better about some things, but when it comes to this and my body and my blood sugar, I know better than you because I'm tracking it. I know what's going on. And she said, oh, well we can see that your fasting's around that same number as last time. So I can diagnose you now if you want. And I'm like, no. I'm coming in here to show you that I don't have high blood sugar, that it's just this one peak in the morning and then it goes down again. And I'm coming here to say, is there a way we can get around this gestational diabetes thing? And that I can just go with the group practice. She was all like, oh, I think you should have a fasting blood test and I can diagnose you early and then you can start getting. subsidies on the diabetes stuff early and I was like, oh, I was just so depressed. Just left that appointment in tears thinking I'm trapped in the system again. But the main difference this time was that I had a Dua. Oh, amazing. Yeah. So Eleanor Lambert, I actually knew her growing up and stuff. So I already had a bit of a relationship with her and I loved her style of, like she likes science, but she also likes physiological birth and she's a women's health physio as well. So she's, she's just got a really good balance of being logical, but also listening to the woman and her, you know, cause she knows herself best. Yeah. Yeah. So I had her, so the good thing was I'd already engaged her so I could talk through things with her. Like say, I went, I went to this appointment, I'm devastated and you know, she would help talk it through with me and. say, okay, you know, it's just one appointment. You know, you're not going to get, go through the same thing as last time. We're going to make sure it's different. Um, and so I whole time you still like home birth is not on, on your mind. No, not on my radar. Really? It's just not something I just thought, oh, well, I never really thought about getting a private midwife and I just wasn't on my radar. I would say, but I still wanted a physiological birds with the midwifery group and Eleanor is my daughter. That was my plan. Yeah. And then 12 weeks scan, my baby had increased nuclear translucency. Okay. Which means it was high risk for Down syndrome and all the chromosomal things, genetic conditions, all that. But yeah, like we were given a one in 60 chance of Down syndrome. Yeah. And I did the NIPT and that showed low risk for everything. Okay. So I guess then I'm thinking, oh, another complication to this pregnancy. But the John Hunter did a really thorough 16 week scan, said we can't find anything else amiss. Your NIPT is low risk, so we're just gonna put you back into low risk care now. But meanwhile, I'm a nervous wreck thinking, is there something going on with my baby's health that I don't know about? What does this mean? Like it still stresses me, but why was that? You know? Well, it builds up this like, you know, this self -talk that's like something's wrong, something's happening. I can't trust my body. You know, and like you said, with the Isaacs, like the pregnancy with Isaac, you know, they weren't saying, oh, you know, you know, you were able to push back a little bit, but that constant, you know, pressure, I guess. that's put upon you each time. It makes you question yourself. I think most of us don't like that. Hi Isaac. Hello, you can't see me. I'm just like a voice. Yes, I think like, yeah. Mommy's just talking. That's alright. I don't see you. He says I don't see you. Should I turn my camera on quickly? Look, can you see me now? A little bit blurry. A little bit blurry, yeah. Yeah. So with, what's the accuracy of the NIPT, do know? 99 % I think for, but this increased nuclear translucency, it can mean, I might just move out of there. Yeah, no, that's okay. It can mean lots of things. So I guess I was still scared that it was, know, could be something more, but they said as far as they were concerned, not to worry about it. Okay. Yeah. So I just like, I had that thorough scan at 16 weeks at the John Hunter. And after that, like in the maternal fetal medicine unit, and after that, I said to my husband, I'm never coming back to the John Hunter for the rest of my pregnancy. Yeah. Cause I just, I felt so traumatized by the place. Yeah. And I just, when I went there, all I could think about was like all the horrible things that had happened there. Yeah. So I said, I'm never coming back here. So I still had that plan to go with the, that the Hunter middle three grip practice. Um, but then, and I started, I met one of the midwives and I started seeing her. Um, and then I saw her a few times. She came to my house for appointments, which is great. Um, And I thought, yeah, this should be alright. Like, I liked her. I didn't, like, love her, but I thought, yeah, she's same, she's younger and, um... I don't know, I hadn't formed a relationship with her yet, but she started saying, you need to do the early tests to stay on this program. Okay. For gestational diabetes. Yeah. That wasn't, yeah, it was like around, I guess, towards 20 weeks that she kept and she was texting me saying, have you done the test yet? Like, I just needed to do this test. And I just went through this period of like, just like avoiding it. Yeah. And I didn't, I wanted to have this big chat and say, like, try and explain my point of view, but I thought, oh, it just all felt too much like everything's a fight. So my doula said, what about home birth? Have you considered that with a private midwife? And that's when I went, oh, that would be like super cool, but there's just so many questions. I wasn't concerned about the safety because I knew a bit about home birth and private midwives and how good. the stats were around the outcomes and things. It was just that I thought, I just didn't know how to make it happen and I thought it was too late in my pregnancy to make it happen. But this midwife, Hayley from Nurturing Birth Hunter, she'd just gone out on her own, like starting her own business that year. So she still had some spots. Well, she had actually one month left and it was my month. So she connected. Yeah, Eleanor, um, who also went on to birth through Haley. She connected me with Haley and we spoke on the phone for like two hours and really connected. And yeah, even despite, um, the cost, which really is not that bad if you consider like all that they do. Um, I just knew I had to do it. And surprisingly, my husband came on board pretty quickly. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, it's a big. I feel like it's a big ask, like, you know, all that money and then also trusting that that's the right thing for the family and everything. But he saw what I went through in the first birth and he was traumatized from my first birth. He didn't know what to do. I think he was terrified. Like I was so out of control and thinking I was going to die and it was awful. And I think he was just like, never wanted to see that happen again. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I guess. You kind of probably develop a mindset of like, um, anything would be better than what just happened. Like how could it, how could it have been worse in a way? Yeah. Um, I think he did think, Oh, we should be able to cope with the pain because he saw how. Yeah. I couldn't cope, but I was explaining to him. I couldn't cope because I was scared of my environment. Yeah. And I was saying like, if you feel safe, it, it won't be. like I won't be so if you're in the right frame of mind, yeah, it can cope with the pain a lot better. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100. Which turned out to be the case. Yeah. And so, um, you what, so how many weeks roughly were, did you link in with the private midwife? I think it was, um, I have feelings about 25 weeks again, like something like that. So it was quite late. Yeah. Yeah. So. And she would come to my house for appointments and it was lovely because I had my toddler there so it was really good. She got him involved and let him listen to the heartbeat and stuff like that. It was more like a mental health because I have a lot of health anxiety so it was really nice just to do. We did like meditations and it was more just a wholesome. looking after your mother's mental health rather than just like, you know, a couple of quick measurements and. Yeah. Wait here for two hours and then let's do your 20 minute appointment and then. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. We would just chat like old friends and then just, yeah, it was exactly what I needed. Yeah. And what was her, I guess, I want to say treatment, but like, how did she treat this whole idea of like gestational diabetes? Oh, she thought it was stupid. Yeah. She was just like, Oh, I don't, you know, I don't think you actually have gestational diabetes and all that. But in the end, right towards the end, I did notice my fasting was just going into the mid fives, which is still not that high. But I said, I do want to just check in with the endocrinologist, just make sure I think just because I had a lot of anxiety around Remy's health and he was measuring smaller actually, he was measuring 30th percentile of the whole pregnancy. Okay. And I was sort of like, I don't know, I just, I think I was still just a bit scared. And I went and saw the endocrinologist and I said, like, she just thought the whole thing was insane. She couldn't believe I was having a home birth. She was saying that's not the right thing for me to do, you know, all that. And even the doctor that I went to get like the referral to Haley, she was like, I don't think you need a referral for a private midwife. And then I was like explaining. about the rebate and stuff. And then she's like, well, I really don't recommend it. I only recommend it for your like antenatal care because I think you're too much of a vulnerable person to have a home birth. The tonology that comes out like, are you kidding me? Because I do have an anxiety disorder and I do have a lot of anxiety around health. But when it came to birth, I just... Yeah. So you're vulnerable to things that make you anxious like trauma. Yeah. Yeah. But she would, she did the referral because I said, look, I'm only getting rebates for the care. So that's what we need to refer for. So she just put that in her referral. Yeah. But in the end, I think that it is kind of strange now looking back that I did engage the endocrinologist towards the end. But I just felt. Haley was sort of like, oh, I don't know that you need to, but I felt that it was like the right thing. And she had to put, she has to write like a management plan for the John Hunter. So she was like, oh, I guess it's good. I can put that in there that, you know, you're touching base with the endocrinologist. And yeah, she did want me to go on insulin. And because I'd done it before, I thought, oh, I can go on that minimum dose again and get it to five. But I only did it for a really short time. And then I forgot. to do it one night, but my fasting was five anyway. And then I was like, nah, I'm not doing this anymore. So I just actually gave up on the whole thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I did, yeah, sort of go back there, but then just decide no. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And like how, like in the context of, you know, all of this, kind of unnecessary stress around gestational diabetes and whatnot. How was like your pregnancy otherwise, like especially having had such a traumatic experience with Isaac? Well, it started my pregnancy. Actually, we didn't plan Remy. I actually will probably going to wait another six months before trying. Yeah. So. I, my pregnancy began with having COVID and finding out I was pregnant all in the same week. And I got COVID again at like 20 weeks. So yeah, there was a bit like, yeah, I think there was a fair bit of sickness going around when I was pregnant. So I remember getting sick a bit and also my blood pressure tends to go up when I'm pregnant. Just around that sort of cutoff point. just below that 140 on 90, it was sort of like, I don't know, high 130s on 80s or something. So I was a bit stressed about my blood pressure because I had really high blood pressure after the birth of Isaac. Yeah. That stuck around for a bit. So I was a little bit nervous about blood pressure. But again, Hayley wasn't worried about that. And that's why we did the meditations and stuff. And she did find that helped. Yeah. But again, like, especially with things like blood pressure, If you're going to an appointment and the doctor or the nurse is stressed about blood pressure, then you're going to get stressed about blood pressure. And then like, what do you expect? Yeah, it does make it higher. I do know I'm prone to it going up a bit when I'm pregnant, but I think, yeah, I, when I get worked up about it, of course it goes up more. Yeah, but that's amazing. It sounds like you had a very, um, a very good midwife, but also a midwife like many, many, many private midwives that treat you as an individual and look at your individual circumstances. And the fact that she was doing meditation with you, that's amazing. That was the best thing. Yeah. She'd like talk. She, she'd talk it like it's one, a written one that she'd talk through and her voice was so calming and yeah. Yeah. So she was yeah. A godsent really, because I, There was some part of Isaac's head, because I was still doing the scans and I don't think I would have engaged in any growth scans if I hadn't, if he hadn't had that nuclear translucency thing. I think I was still wanting to see him to kind of go like, is there something, because if he did have some sort of chromosomal or genetic thing, like that, it might be a case of he's not well at birth, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I did. I sort of. I wanted the scan but at the same time scans made me just feel like I was going to die. I was so worried. So there was a part of his head that was measuring smaller but it's a part that didn't really matter because it's not the circumference, it's the other bit. But I would always question why is that so small? And they're like, oh, that's fine. Don't worry about that. That can be discounted at this stage. That's just the shape of his head kind of thing. So I was quite worked up about that stuff and it was good to talk to Hayley and Eleanor and they talked me down off that sort of thing saying, he's fine, they're telling you he's fine. Like, you know. So there was a lot of mental challenges. And towards the end, I actually did a lot of kinesiology. And that actually helped. I think that really helped me achieve the home birth. Because I think deep down, I believe that. it was never really going to happen. Yeah. Yeah. And she got me to actually, I don't truly understand how kinesiology works, but it made me feel different. And she also got me to picture actually having the birth and then holding Remy and that kind of thing. Cause I'd never actually, I think I had a mental block that I want this to happen, but it probably won't happen. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, and I guess that's part of the problem as well within the maternity care system is that we discount like what's actually happening in your head. It's like, you know, just a physical thing. Oh, you're just going to go in and like pop a baby out, but it's, it's a hormone game. It's a mind game. It's so important. Um, did you, uh, or your husband do any like extra education or like things like that? Um, not overly because just Eleanor and, um, Haley was so knowledgeable. So Eleanor, um, being a women's health physio, that was great. And she also does a bit of birth education as well. So she, we did a lot of stuff like that together talking about, you know, positioning and, um, also Haley did a lot of that. Um, I think it's called optimal maternal positioning and, and some sideline things and, um, going upside down on the lounge and stuff like that that we, I did that throughout the pregnancy. So I felt that, yeah, I just was surrounded by such a good team that that I was just learning stuff all the time. Yeah. Amazing. And when did you go into labor with Remy then? So it was 39 weeks on the dot. If that was right by the dates. Yeah, so yeah, around the same time as with Isaac, so that must just be what my body does. But Haley was very chill about this birth pool coming because I really wanted a water birth and she's like, oh yeah, yeah, like, I'll bring it around next time. And then she's like, oh, I don't have it this time. But and I was like really on her like, because she's so chill, but I was like, no, I just I need it. I need it at my house. Like, so it was really lucky she dropped it on the Sunday and then that was the Tuesday night. that I went into labor, so I'm so glad I got that pull. But yeah, so I just, I went to the toilet around bedtime and there was just a little bit of blood there, which didn't happen like totally different to my last labor, how it started. So I looked up, I Googled, you know, what it means. And it said that you probably go into labor in the next 24 hours. It's strange that that's what I did rather than like. texting a little bit, but then it just basically started straight away. Yeah. Okay. And it was so intense straight away. Like it wasn't like my early labor last time. And I was like, Whoa, but I was like, no, no, it could be long. I'm just gonna stay in bed and, and tell Ben to get sleep and I'll try and get sleep. And no, like it was just so intense. And so I said to Ben, I won't be able to stay in bed. Um, Luckily Isaac was asleep, but I said, I won't be able to stay in bed. I'm going to just get up and go on the ball, birth ball and stuff. And I said, you should sleep though. But so lucky he said, Oh no, no, I'm not going to sleep. I'll come out because it was only a four and a half hour labor. Whoa. Oh my gosh. So Ben said, Oh, I'll start setting up the birth pool. Yeah. So he started doing that. Thank goodness. Yeah. That was his job. So he was on that and I was just, um, I was getting a lot of back labor again, as I did with Isaac. So I was like, Oh, I don't know. Does that mean the baby's in the wrong position? Or I wasn't sure, but I was just, because I thought I'd go longer. I was being really casual with everything, even though it felt intense. I was like, Oh, I'll just let Haley and Eleanor know, but tell them not to worry. And then I was sort of talking to Eleanor cause she lived a lot closer than Haley. So I was saying, Oh, maybe you could come now. And she's like, Oh, I just have a shower. And I think. Yeah, we'll all been quite calm about it. Yeah. But yet we didn't know there was not not long to go. Yeah. So it started to get like feel a lot like Isaac's labor. Yeah. And so I, Ben and I had read about like I did do some reading in terms of I read Birth is a Right passage. Yeah. And I read another one, Birth Skills by Juju Sundan. So in that I had read it said, to make really low noises rather than screaming. So yeah, Ben's like low noise, low noise. So I was practicing going like, moo, like that. And like doing banging as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's what I was doing. And I also use the birth comb. Yep. And I also went upside down on the lounge and I felt him move. Wow. So that was really cool. I just think, oh, if I'd used these skills in Isaac's labor, I probably could have changed things a lot. But yeah, I obviously knew a lot more this time. So I felt him move. Didn't change really that back. I still had that back labor for both labors. And yeah, so Haley, I think eventually Haley said, yeah, I'm on the way. And she just sort of never came. And I remember I was in... the back room of our house, it was November, so it was hot. I was by the back door and I was just like letting the breeze come in and I was in like full on intense labor. And I remember saying to my husband like, where is she? Where? She's not coming. She's not coming. Um, eventually she did ring my husband or my phone. I don't know. Husband must have answered it. And she had a flat tire out in the country. Yeah. And she only called when she'd actually she fixed the tie herself. And that's when, yeah, so she's amazing. Like, but yeah, just really bad luck. So she fixed the tie herself and said to Ben, I'm going to be another hour. And I was just like, I was so deep in labor. I just didn't really respond. I was just like, Oh well, like it's happening kind of thing. And my, the feeling of the birth pool had woken, um, Isaac. Yeah. So I ended up, we decided my parents would get Isaac because I wasn't sure whether it would be the right thing to have him there. In the end, I think it would have worked out fine to have him, but at the time we thought that was the right thing. So my parents came and got Isaac and my mum, who wasn't sure about this whole home birth thing, saw me in immense pain kneeling by the back door and she's like, oh dear. And I said, yeah, it's all in my back again. And she could see that I was having a hard time. And then I wanted to prove that it was the right thing. So I was being really strong in front of her. And then after she left, I just, it just didn't feel that painful anymore. It was really weird. It was like, it just sort of went, I must've really got in the zone or something. I don't understand it, but the intensity just backed right off. And I didn't want anyone near me. So my husband was coming in and he's like, Oh, has it stopped? And I'm like, I don't think so, but I don't want to be rude, but you can go, you can just leave me. And he's like, he was just really confused. Cause last time I was like grabbing him and you know, he, he couldn't leave my side. Whereas I was like, just go and do your thing and like set up the space. Cause I'm sure I wasn't speaking quite this rational, but I was like, no, I just want to be alone. You sound very diplomatic. Yeah. I swear. still was being diplomatic. I just am like that. But I also sure it was a lot, you know, I was in the throes of labor. So it wasn't quite that polite. But I said, I'm not like it's nothing about you just go and do the best space I need. I just want to be on my own. So the only thing he was doing was giving me some water. Yes, I wanted sips of water. And then like, yeah, I got that feeling like the bowling ball in your bum feeling. But that really had, it was all in the butt. I could just feel this, like my butt was splitting open. And I thought, yep, he's, like I'm about to give birth. Wow. And my husband so the midwives are not there? No one's there. And the doula, no one, it's just your husband who sent Isaac away? Yeah. So I had gotten Ben to tell Eleanor to come, because I think I was too... I think I said call Eleanor but then like I couldn't say anything. Okay. And he's like, what do want me to say? And I'm like, tell her to come. So like, Eleanor was on her way. Haley was, I guess, somewhere on her way. Yeah. And I could feel like my butt splitting open. And I wanted to be in the water. That's all I wanted. So I was like, I could barely walk but I was like gripping my way through the house to get to the birth pool. It was at the front of the house. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And Yeah, like after the birth, there was like blood on the walls from me gripping. It's like a horror movie. I told Ben I couldn't move, but when it came to getting in that pool, I didn't care. I was going to make it. So I got in the pool and just before I got in the pool, there was a huge gush and water's completely broke, like big time broke as opposed to like a triple. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah, he was right there. I knew I was just about to give birth. So I'm like, I'm getting in the pool, got in the pool and yeah, I'm pretty sure his head. either came out when I was standing or in the pool. I said to Ben, yeah, he's heads out. I just don't think he believed me. I think he was just completely overwhelmed. No one was there. My other birth took 30 hours. And he's just like, are you sure? Are you sure? And then Eleanor arrived at that point and I said, he's heads out. And I think she wasn't convinced on that either, but she... had a look because it was all dark in the room just with fairy lights and she had a look with the light I think and she's like oh yeah yeah there's a head so she started filming so that's great so I have it on film from like a video from then yeah and then Haley arrived I was saying to Eleanor are you sure this is okay that's when I started to get anxious because the head had been out for like five minutes but nothing was happening yeah yeah and for some reason it didn't hurt when he his head came out like I just don't understand what was going on there because I went from being in quite intense pain to all the pain just disappearing. Yeah. I don't know. Is it like a natural pain relief? I just don't know. The is like pretty incredible. Yeah. So the head's just sitting there and on the video I'm saying to Eleanor, you know, are you sure this is okay? Like, um, and um, she's like, yep, just wait, just wait for your body. And then Haley arrived. And on the video you hear her say, Haley, we have a head. And then not long after Haley got there, I had a big contraction and yeah, he was born. He was born. Wow. The disappointing thing is I was just frozen when he was born. Okay. I didn't, she's like, Natalie, collect your baby. Like your baby's here. You can lift him up. And she was, and I just wasn't, it's like I could hear nothing, could do nothing. I was just hunched over the pool. Wow. So there's a foot. Um, so yeah, I, I wish I picked him up myself, but I, I was frozen. I don't know what it was. And I've heard apparently that can happen sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. After your birth. But I don't know. I had to, I wanted Haley and then Ben said just the other day, or maybe it's because in hospital they were telling you everything to do. Maybe you were waiting for someone to, because Isaac, I don't really remember him being born. Yeah. And I don't really - so many things. It kind of does sound like perhaps, you know, maybe a trauma or a like that, you know, yeah, obviously this is not a trauma. It's hard to know. I'm so sorry to open up these can of worms. Oh no, it's fine. I've worked through all of it. So it's yeah, I'm fine to talk about all of it. Yeah. So I just, she ended up bringing him to my chest and yeah, he was just so like, I just remember him looking like kind of like a blue colour, but it wasn't in a way that like, you know, he... wasn't breathing or anything. He just didn't look the same color as Isaac looked. Hello. And he was very quiet. Oh sorry, I might have to get my husband to He was very quiet and very small. And I just convinced that he was like not alive or not okay. So it's funny, like I had this good labor, but then once he was here, I think all I was saying on the video was, Is he okay? Are you sure? Is he okay? You sure? I just kept saying that and then finally he let out a bit of a cry and that's when I think I was convinced. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. And did you stay in the pool or? I would have loved to, but unfortunately the water, Hailey was quite concerned it was not at all warm enough for the baby. No! It like, I'll get you guys to hop out pretty quickly actually. It's not... Not a good temperature Wow. Yep. Yeah, cuz we just kind of filled it. Hello I'm nearly finished almost done Yeah, so we went to the toilet to birth the placenta. Yep, which isn't the nicest spot, but it worked and it works Yeah, we're with our I think of the birth and it was fine. Yeah It just seemed like no big deal because I remember with Isaac's birth. They just stuck the needle in my leg, like they didn't even ask me. Yeah. yeah. So I, now I look back like, Oh, why was it such a big deal to like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I guess like the, the reality is, is that like birthing your placenta requires like oxytocin as well. And I think, um, you know, in such situations in hospitals, especially when you've had that is really intense experience. Actually, yeah, there is potential for the plus second have trouble because you've just messed up the physiology. Yeah. Um, so I mean, yeah, they'd probably want to be jabbing that real quick because like, yeah, but in a, in a physiological process, yeah, just. Let it be like, it'll happen. Yeah, it just seemed like no big deal. Like it was just quite easy and everyone think well, like I know for it, that's not the case for everyone, but yeah, that all went to plan. Yeah. then, um, yeah, then I had a shower and that was really lovely. And then, yeah, just like, I think before, I don't know if it's before the placenta was born or it probably was after. But it's hard to say. I just remember lying on the lounge and cuddling. Maybe it was a little bit, maybe she gave me a little bit of a chance to do that before and then we did it again after. So no, I don't think so. So lying, yeah, lying on the lounge and cuddling him and I think Eleanor made like a cup of tea and the sun was just coming up. Yeah. Wow. And I forgot to mention it was the blood moon of November. Oh, wow. So I always call him my full moon baby. Yeah. So it was that the 10th moon. Do you reckon that would have been the 10th moon of the pregnancy? Yeah. I guess so. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I was 39 weeks. Yeah. But yeah, it was, um, a lot of people were saying, well, babies might come on this full moon and Jane Hardwick Collins did like a video saying, Oh, I'm thinking of all you women who will go into labor on the full moon. And she said, lean into the pain. And, um, I, I did that. Yeah. video really helped me. Yeah. Yeah. And I was, yeah, I went, it was the full blood moon, amazing moon. Yeah. Um, and mom said that when they were driving Isaac over to their house, he said that the moon was chasing them because it was this giant red moon, you know, so it was a pretty like auspicious night to give birth. Yeah, Yeah. That's a good term. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, yeah, like I was, the, the sun was coming up and then the second midwife arrived, I think around the placenta birthing time. Cause yeah, Yeah. Can you imagine the stress that you're on the way to somebody having a baby and you get a flat tire and then you're like, the quickest way is going to be for me to change it. And then like the amount of calm I imagine you have to have fiddling around with all the things of a tire. In the dead of night in the country. Oh my gosh, it's a miracle she got there at all. I know the timing all worked out perfectly. Yeah. Like it sounds like an unfortunate event, but in the end everything happened perfectly. Yeah. So, yeah. And I am so glad they both arrived when they did because I, I hadn't, I didn't know, I never learned what to do when the baby's born. Yep. So I don't think I'll have a third, but if I did, I would be wanting to. learn what to do. And I never thought about that. I just thought about being alone in early labor and stuff, but I never thought about bringing them up. Like, what if he wasn't breathing or, you all these things, but, um, yeah, he would, it all would have been fine. But I just, um, am glad that they did come at that point. That's amazing. Like, yeah, like chills then as well. Yeah, it was all pretty eventful and exciting and yeah. And. Yeah, definitely even more than I'd hoped for, I suppose. Yeah. And like comparing the two, especially like in the context of how different the birth experience was with Remy, do you have like, like, can you give a little description, I guess, or explanation on like how that made you feel or like how you, you like, I guess. your postpartum in relate like also in comparison to Issa. birth itself, yeah, it made me feel super, super empowered. And yeah, like, I mean, there's always an element of, ah, I've shown them, like, all these people that tried to hold me back and hold me down and tell me I was vulnerable and tell me I had diabetes and tell me it wasn't safe. And, you know, you just feel like, I knew all along I could do this. And, and look. I'd done it and I didn't need and it made it made me think. You had a dream too. I had a dream about long grass and snakes. She says I had a dream about long grass and snakes. Wow that sounds a bit freaky. That was mummy's dream remember? Yeah. That's hilarious. Yeah so I felt um I did feel like yeah really proud of myself and proud of my husband and proud of um Yeah, the team around me and yeah, I just, it felt like, oh, I knew that I could have had this all along. I probably could have had this with Isaac if I'd had the right people around me. Yeah. Yeah. So I felt really proud and empowered, but it didn't make my postpartum easier. Okay. Because with Isaac, I was in hospital for five days. Yeah. And the postpartum care there was good. It was really good. I had quite high blood pressure, like even higher than when I was pregnant. And they believed I had postpartum preeclampsia, which is a really rare thing. Cause most people believe that preeclampsia goes when the placenta is gone. So that's why I'm like, what the heck? But yeah, if you Google it, which I luckily didn't look up too much about it when they thought I had it. I mean, that's what they said I had. My midwife, private midwives a little bit unsure. She's like, oh, maybe it's like due to some of the things that happened to you. But anyway, my blood pressure was high, like 150 on a hundred. And I had some unusual bloods with kidney and liver markers and stuff. And they said, that's what I have. And so I was cared for really, really well. And I learned to breastfeed in hospital. And yeah, I just felt well supported by the time I came home, I felt ready. to be at home and that sort of thing. And this time around, it was fantastic that, you know, I'm already in my bed and I didn't have to be in hospital. And I loved that aspect. But the unfortunate thing is that like my son just really found, and this is natural now, I look back and I just didn't realize that he found it really hard adjustment. And he was being quite hypo at the grandparents house. And yeah. Mum said, oh, maybe it's best like we bring him back because maybe he's feeling like left out and he wants to know what's going on, that kind of thing. So he came back that afternoon. And yeah, ever since Remy was born, he just really was struggling with the adjustment and having a brother. And so some different behaviors were coming out with him that we hadn't seen before. And yeah, in the end, like my husband was doing a lot with the toddler. Um, and then I was sort of doing everything with Remy and we had a bit of feeding struggles. He had, um, tongue tie and he, um, was spilling milk everywhere and not latching at all. Like, um, my eldest latched. Um, yes, I was having feeding troubles and then like, yeah, dealing with all the toddlers, big emotions and yeah. Um, yeah, I was like, oh, this is, and then you're at home. So I guess I didn't feel very looked after because my husband was. trying to look after the toddler who was acting all out of character. So I was, yeah, I found it quite challenging. Like there were some, I didn't have a meal train, but there were some lovely people that I'd met through like home birth connections. I think Mel like does something with meal trains. She does do that now in Newcastle. I don't think that was around then when I had given birth, but yeah, it was really nice that I did get some meals. So that helped a lot. But yeah, I think I felt like a lot more stress this time around just due to those things. And also I was kind of convinced that maybe something was wrong with Remy and I didn't know about it kind of thing. Just due to that scan. Yeah. So I was, he struck, it's interesting. He didn't really open his eyes for like 10 days after he was born. Like I might've seen them open very briefly. at one point in the day each day kind of thing, but he always had his eyes shut. So I was like convinced that meant he had something wrong with him. Whereas my midwife was like, okay, it's all right, he's just waking up. Like we're not worried about that. Like, yeah. I guess like. Number one, postpartum is hard. And when you only have a second child, that's also pretty hard. I think that's what was the big difference. Yeah. I like think when I think about like, you know, how like things like postpartum could be experience improved or like. felt, you know, to feel more supported. It is the things like that, like that community, it's like the meal trains, it's like relieving a bit of pressure because otherwise you like, um, yeah, like I work in mental health and we call it the stress bucket. And like, if your stress like keeps like filling up in the bucket, like the bucket overflows and that's like, you don't want to be postpartum with your bucket overflowing. Yeah. Full on. And I think there's. I've seen recently on like social media, like people choosing C -sections because they have health anxieties or whatever. And like anybody that you can choose whatever path you want to choose. But I think especially for people that have anxiety or, you know, other mental health struggles, having individualized woman centered care is the kind of care that you need to give absolutely chance at having. the ability to relieve some of that, you know, water overflowing from your bucket, you know, how amazing that like the midwives were able to say, Natalie, it's okay. Don't stress. Like, yeah, maybe it's okay. Um, because yeah, if you're birth in the hospital, I presume you don't have a midwife's number that you can just text at 2am and be like, Hey, worried that my baby is doing X, Y, Z, you know? Yeah. Well, I was, yeah, tech like a Of course, Hailey and Eleanor, I still had their support postpartum, so that was really good. I remember texting Hailey a lot, like, know, hasn't opened his eyes. There was a day they meant to do certain poos on certain days. didn't poo for a couple of days or something. So there was a lot of texts back and forth about this poo and then the poo finally came, you know, all that kind of stuff. So yeah, yeah. Well that like, there was a lot of chat with Hayley and yeah. Yeah. So it was good to have them. Thank you so much, Natalie, for sharing your stories of Isaac and Remy. I really appreciate you being so honest and open. And thank you so much. Thank you. It was a pleasure talking with you.