Dad of 2, husband to Sarah (Episode 19), school teacher, and now homebirth advocate, Robert shares his experiences with supporting Sarah to have an amazing homebirth. We touch on important questions to ask and consider like “what does that mean” when told ‘your risk has increased’ ? & we discuss frankly about death and how it is treated in society.
Links to people/business/resources for this episode:
CHAPTERS
03:20
First Pregnancy and Birth Experience
06:14
Preparing for Second Pregnancy and Birth
10:00
Considering Home Birth
11:08
Addressing Fears and Concerns
14:45
Ultrasound Drama and Decision-Making
29:31
Preparing for Birth and Labor
35:16
Birth Experience of Quinton
40:54
Advice for Partners and Dads
Dad of 2, husband to Sarah (Episode 19), school teacher, and now homebirth advocate, Robert shares his experiences with supporting Sarah to have an amazing homebirth. We touch on important questions to ask and consider like “what does that mean” when told ‘your risk has increased’ ? & we discuss frankly about death and how it is treated in society.
Links to people/business/resources for this episode:
CHAPTERS
03:20
First Pregnancy and Birth Experience
06:14
Preparing for Second Pregnancy and Birth
10:00
Considering Home Birth
11:08
Addressing Fears and Concerns
14:45
Ultrasound Drama and Decision-Making
29:31
Preparing for Birth and Labor
35:16
Birth Experience of Quinton
40:54
Advice for Partners and Dads
Hi, welcome to Birthing at Home, a podcast. I'm Elsie, your host. I'm a home birth mom of two little boys. I'm a mental health nurse, a home birth advocate broadly, but also more specifically in the state of Victoria, and I'm an ex-student midwife. Before we begin, I would like to acknowledge the Wurundjeri people who are the traditional custodians of the land I'm recording on in Melbourne, Australia. I would also like to acknowledge the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples have been birthing at home. on country for tens of thousands of years prior to the British invasion and acknowledged that sovereignty has never been ceded. This is another part in episode today, Robert, the husband of Sarah from episode 19, shares his perspective on home birth and his experiences supporting birth at home. It was so great to chat with Robert. We talk about home birth, the importance of being a foundational support in birth, the realities of risk and the importance of asking, what does that mean? when told your risk has increased, which is a common phrase within maternity care. And one of my favorite parts is the realization that yes, most expecting parents probably spend more time considering what car they will buy than about what their birthing options are. It's a thought-provoking episode and I know you'll enjoy it. Please do share this episode to get the word out there that these special episodes exist and enjoy. Welcome, Robert, to Birthing at Home, a podcast. Hi, thanks for having me. Thank you for being here in your car studio. I was just telling Robert for the listeners that this isn't the first time that I've had someone record in their car. So thank you so much for being on the podcast with me today. Do you wanna give a bit of background about like who you are, where you're from? Obviously you're Sarah's husband, so that's awesome, but a bit more background information about who you are. Hi, yeah, so. Um, I am a teacher. Uh, I have a bit of background in mental health and, uh, psychology. Um, but, uh, I'm a dad of two now. Um, and I live up in the Hunter Valley in New South Wales. Uh, and we moved out of Sydney, got the hell out of Sydney. Um, at the start of 2023. Um, uh, about a month into a pregnancy. So yeah, big, big changes last year. So it was all the fun. Yeah. Amazing. So you have Addison who's like six. Addison is now six. Yes. Yep. And you have Quinton who almost five months, almost five months. Yep. Baby, baby. Yeah. Amazing. And so, um, Before listeners that might have listened to Sarah's episode, you would know that, well, I mean, hearing just that, that there's quite a big gap in Addison and Quentin, and I guess, you know, also quite a difference in, you know, birth stories as well. So I guess just start off with Robert, like before Addison, so going back, you know, seven or so years, did you have? like any ideas about pregnancy or birth or you know? No, not really. It's not something you really gave too much thought into before starting that journey and one of the things quickly we found out is that the wording in health insurance premiums can be a bit confusing and when you think you're covered for one thing and you're not and it comes out of a separate bucket, that sort of set the tone for the first pregnancy. I think we thought one thing and then there was something else and it was a difficult pregnancy and a difficult birth. Not as bad as some, but still, it was still, there was it was part of the reason why there was such a big gap between, um, Alison and Quinton. So, uh, yeah. Um, but yeah, going in, going into that first pregnancy, um, there was a lot of learning that needed to happen very, very quickly. Yeah. And, um, for the listeners that haven't heard or listened to Sarah's story of the birth of Quinton, do you want to give a very brief summary of like, from your perspective? birth experience of Addison or like the birth of Addison? Yeah, so Sarah had some medical issues going into that pregnancy that caused her to be quite sick throughout the pregnancy, didn't work as much as she wanted to and I think really hit our confidence going into that. the end of that pregnancy. And one that I will say one of the shining points out of that pregnancy was the continuity of care. We sort of fell into a midwifery program where we've got a trainee midwife and she saw us at every appointment and knew us and because it wasn't a cookie cutter sort of stock standard pregnancy and we'd it didn't fit the mold for what the hospital wanted or, and I think as a result, yeah, there was some trauma from that birth. It hit us both pretty hard at times, during it and after it, and it took a little while to heal from. Yeah. when you're going on 40 hours of no sleep and trying to keep your wits about you was difficult. So yeah, so that was the first pregnancy. And so, you know, we learned. So then Sarah becomes pregnant with Quentin and like had you put like you yourself like thought about, you know, like how this pregnancy might be or how this birth might be like thinking about like, you're pretty much only exposure to birth at this point is like something that's kind of traumatic, you know? Yeah, so we were kind of determined the second time around to learn what we learned from the first time around. Sarah more so than I. did love the heavy lifting in terms of getting resources and research. Yeah. She had a much clearer idea of how it wanted, she wanted to go, um, in terms of the continuity of care was really important. Like I said, like we liked that. That was the one thing from that first pregnancy that worked. And, um, and it was so important. So we set out at the outset, looking for that. from the get-go, the midwife that continued care, that consistency, that understanding us and what we wanted and our wishes and to be respected that way. And so from that, that outset, that's what we wanted. We didn't necessarily want a home birth at first. All options were on the table at the start, but we knew what we didn't want and we knew that birthing in the system needed to work for us. However, that whatever that was going to look like. And I think the point, so for the second pregnancy, there was a point there where we weren't going to have kids, another kid. And I literally was booked in to have the SNIP. Yeah. And we were out by ourselves one evening and we sort of just decided like, do we really want to do this? Do we want to like go through this so that's completely off the table, no more kids? Yeah. And there was a reluctance there and I think unless you're both 100% in, then it's probably a no. And so we talked it out and we decided, well, are we actually really considering this? So I think by the end of the evening, we had a spreadsheet open with potential baby names. So yeah, that's awesome. So yeah, so after that decision, then the next decision was, well, it can't be a repeat of what happened the first time. So we went into it this time around with a lot more. forethought consideration and a little bit more confidence as well. I think it helped. Yeah. I guess, yeah, when you go into birth, not really having any idea, like there's a thousand possibilities, yeah. But when you know what you don't want, then you can be like, well, I don't want that, I don't want that. And so, you know, it narrows down. all of the possible options, I guess, that exists in the birth and pregnancy world. Do you remember the first time that Sarah mentioned home birth to you? We actually were talking about this the other day and I can't remember that point when it came up because we're looking at all options. We knew what we didn't want and that meant we need to look outside of what was conventional. So it wouldn't have, I do know it wouldn't have seemed farfetched to me. And the fact that I can't remember the exact point in which it... was brought up probably means that it was like, okay, that's on the table. Everything was on the table. It's another option. And I think throughout the whole pregnancy with Quinton, we would examine everything that came up, talk about it, think about it, look at the risks, look at the evidence behind it, and then make an informed decision based on that. Yeah. So yeah. During the pregnancy with Quinton, whether, and you know, when you decided that you would have a home birth with Quinton, whether I guess in that context, but also more broadly in the context of just having another baby, did you have any fears or particular things that you were like specifically worried about? Yeah. So I know it came up. we'd met with our midwife and at that point and she'd taken us on. And she, if you ever get a chance to meet her, she's the perfect, she's going to hate me for this, the perfect blend of medicine and hippie or art or art and science. If you want to put it that way. For me, she, she was very, very clear at the outset of what she can and can't do. should take everything on board, but as soon as we stepped outside, what would, you know, she could ethically offer, she'd let us know where we approach those boundaries and those sorts of things. Um, so look, after having met her and, and knowing that she was in our corner, I don't think really I had too many fears. I have a note here about, um, oh yeah. So look, at the outset, I, I knew I had all the typical fears about like, what if something bad happens, you know, yeah, you know, emergencies, transfer the hospital and you know, all that cascade of interventions and all those sorts of things that come up and, you know, a sort of drummed into via stories and media and things because, you know, if the heart of a good story is conflict, and if you're it sells, right. So in terms of birth, what's the conflict going to be? It's going to be conflict with the body, conflict with the outcome, blah, blah. So, but as you know, working in mental health field, any sort of field related psychology, four years of psychology behind me and anyone that's done psychology knows it, it's a little bit of theory about what goes on with people in the brain. Most of it is statistics. Yeah. So when you sit down and consider what the actual risks are of these sorts of catastrophic events, they are so infinitesimally small. Yes, they do happen. Yes, they can happen. I had a friend who had a catastrophic event and lost their child with one of the state's best obstetricians in a private hospital. They couldn't transfer them. I bet it didn't make the news. It didn't make the news. And in that situation, they couldn't get them to the Westmead Children's in time. Yeah. Wow. So if it's... sounds really morbid and bad, but if it's going to happen, it's going to happen. And there are certain situations where no matter what setting you're in. Um, you might have a better chance of survival or a better outcome, but when you're hitting that pointy end of the curve, um, the odds are stacked against you anyway. Yeah. So, and I mean, that came up to play like when we get to talk about the actual, the birth of Quinton, like the 38 week scan and the... And doctors not knowing their statistics. So much drama and scams. Oh my gosh. And so working with Ineka, so you felt like she was the main person that was able to help you overcome these fears or I guess all of Sarah's research and education probably helped as well. Yeah. Knowledge is power. Yeah. And to be forewarned is to be forearmed. So, yeah, if you know what the risks are, like people will spend more time choosing a car than their birth options. Oh my gosh, that's so true. They'll spend more time learning about the intricacies of a new vehicle than the options for a birth. Oh my gosh. And all the safety features of the car, but you never like consider. Oh my God. I'd never thought about it like that. Whoa. So like if you're, if you're a partner and you're listening and you're like, you will spend more time considering what your next vehicle choice is. Yeah. Then then the birth of your child usually. Yeah, that's wild. Oh my God. Oh my God. Um, I guess I'm going to use that like, as for everyone that ever questions home births, like how long did it take to decide on what car you bought? I know when I got my car, it took me like weeks to like figure out which car, what price, where you could get it from. Test driver. How does it feel? Yeah. On paper, this car's better, but this one feels more right. Like. Yeah. And like you can return the car at the end of the day, but you can't return a birth experience like. Oh my gosh. And so talking about all of this ultrasound drama, do you want to give like a little overview of your understanding of what happened there? So. Yeah. Um, Sarah was a little bit worried. Why is the wrong word concerned because she hadn't really felt, um, Quinton move as much. Yeah. There was a, there was a change in frequency and amount of, um, movement and like the kid's legs never stopped now. Um, I can only imagine what it was like in utero as well. Yeah. And so she was, we felt him keep really early and yeah, if you've met him, if you've met him, wouldn't be surprised. There's a little jalapeno baby just kicks around the whole time. And so, you know, when there was that decrease in movement, it's a little bit concerned. So Inek is like, well, what are your concerns? Would it make you feel better if you went for a scan? Let's, let's, let's err on the side of the caution. We're at 38 weeks. Let's make sure everything's all good. Yeah. And so Sarah's like, I can go in and have a full scan or just a little scan. Cause at 38 weeks, you can't really get the whole package in like the poll. It's really hard to get a full picture of the baby as you know, and, and the notoriously inaccurate with certain measurements and things like that. So I went look and I kicked myself for it now. I'm like, I'll err on the side of the cautionary. Let's just go for the whole hog. We're paying for it. Why not? Like, so that turned out to be a bit of a mistake. So we get this, I was on the road that day. I distinctly remember I was heading back into Newcastle across the bridge coming up from Nelson's Bay. Okay. And I got a call from Sarah. telling me about this skin. I'm like, I have things as a baby, you know, still got a baby. And she's like, yeah, but like, and then she tells me like, it's like really small. Um, and they couldn't find the kidney and all this stuff. I'm like, that's weird because the 20 week morphology, everything was on track, right? Yeah. Okay. So, and then that starts the ball rolling. So now we get flagged in the system. So there's suspected interuterine growth restriction. So then hospital policy and procedure and state government policy and procedure starts to kick in. And so we start getting pressured into, well, we're gonna book you in for an induction. Like, the baby's not thriving, the baby could die, blah, blah. Yeah. So we go look. We'll get a confirmation scan first, please. Yeah, just hold up. Hold up. So we get the second scan and it's the other end of the curve. So we've got a big baby now, not a small baby. Still problem with the kidney. Still not sure, couldn't really see that, but it's on a particular side, what was really difficult to see even when they're out anyway. So. Yeah. So then we get sent along for a third one, eventually, after we kick up a bit of a stink, because we've got two conflicting results. What do you do? So you go for a third. And it fell sort of in between. So three completely different results, two from the same sonographer. So. One of the things I remember meeting with an obstetrician at the hospital, the closest hospital that we're booked into, and listening to them. And I was a little concerned and I was thinking about, okay, so we'll set a time limit. In the back of my mind, I'm thinking, okay, so I don't want to book in for an induction this Friday. That's ridiculous. Yeah. Like, we have incomplete information. Let's see how things go. Give some space and time to think. Yeah. They kept pushing. Yeah, well. And I was not gonna relent, but. I was prepared to go home and have a really good long think about it and if necessary, try and talk Sarah around to it because until they mucked up their stats. In the interim between the scans, our midwife had sent me a whole bunch of peer-reviewed data, meta-analysis from Cochrane and a few other, and federal government data on the risks associated. She wouldn't make, you know, Sarah's like, can you just make the call for us? And she's like, I can't, you have to make the call. And Sarah. wasn't able to decipher some of the statistics. So of course, I hope no one from work hears me. Instead of working, I spent two days of work time reading peer-refued medical journals and spending a bunch of time looking at their methodology and their statistics. So one of the key things you need to know is In general population, you have 2.7 deaths per thousand perinatal deaths. So anywhere from between 20 weeks and 44 weeks after they're out. Right. Perinatal is about 2.7, I think, from memory. This is a while ago, so don't quote me on these stats. So, you know, to put it into perspective, out of every 10,000 pregnancies that get to 20 weeks, 27 of those kids will die. Yeah. All right. adding the risks that we had, the risk factors we had, it bumps it up to 3.2 or 32 kids in 10,000. Not a huge increase from where we're seeing. No, yeah. I mean, like you've said before, it's like pretty morbid to be talking about like. But this is what we're faced with. But that's what they, yeah. And that's what they scare you with. They say, oh, like your risk increases or your risk doubles or your risk is higher or whatever. But actually, what does that mean? What does that mean? Yeah. So I think one of, I can't remember. Otherwise I put in the formal complaint, but one of the OBs or it was either OB or one of them, there was two, there was two, there was two lady doctors we were talking to. And I shouldn't say lady doctors, two doctors we were talking to and, and one of them said like, you've got a 3% chance of death. I'm like, Thank you for your time. Yeah. We'll take it under advice. Yeah. And so I knew where she was coming from, but she had no idea of what the stats meant. Yeah. Which kind of helped me make up my mind. Yeah. And I think at that point, we'll just wait. Movements are back. There's no other. We've got data that's inconclusive. Yeah. I'm conflicting. And look, don't get me wrong. Like when things go wrong, I want an obstetrician in my corner. Like that's, that's what they're trained for. Absolutely. Yeah. They are trained to deal with that pointy end that of the curve where when things go wrong, you want them there. That's what they're trained for. But I think after having worked in education for so long and seeing how it changes people and, and having relatives and people in, in medical system and seeing how it sort of changes you. Then they will see that they live through trauma every day. So you can't do that without it affecting your view. So. They just want to avoid it as much as possible and they will rely on these policies and procedures. Yeah. Some of which aren't up to date with the best science that's out there at the moment. Yeah. And some of them, because that's what they need to fall back on. And then the other thing that kicked around in the back of my mind was there was an article written in New York Times in 2013. It's called How Doctors Die. Okay. And again, this is really hugely morbid to be talking about. If you're listening to this, then you're trying to, yeah, because that's what the risk they're trying to avoid at all costs, like the death of a child. But one of the things that stuck with me when I read that was they don't use the system. They die completely differently to the general population. They know what the limits of the medical science are. Yep. And they know what's important. They know, they know when to call quits, yeah, refuse treatment, and then just spend the rest of their time that they've got the best way possible. Yeah. Instead of using the system the way the rest of us do. So there's that inherent distrust again, I guess, about from the medical profession when it comes to risk of death. Yeah, absolutely. Like, I think like. Like I work in mental health and I'm a nurse and I've seen so many things where I'm like, oh God, like, you know, even talking to a paramedic friend the other day, I was like, oh my God, I cannot believe we're like living in such like. You sold one idea, but it's like actually completely different. And there's so many situations like, you know, I, I want to be healthy and well because being faced with the reality of like getting stuck in like the hospital system or getting stuck in emergency things and like things are missed all the time, like in such a big system, that means there's bigger potential for things to go wrong. And I think the thing to remember, it's a system and it works from a systemic point of view. Yeah. So what that means is it works well for a population, but not particularly for individual cases. Individuals. Yep. And I think for us, getting back to the start, that continuity of care, having that one provider, whether it be a private midwife, whether it be an obstetrician, whether it be even like God bless Daisy if you're listening to this, like you were the one bright light in the first pregnancy. So like having that one person that can help you navigate the system and make it work for you, I think is the biggest thing, biggest takeaway we had. So I think we identified that early on. Yeah. So you have all of the, this scan drama, um, at 30, eight ish weeks. Um, how are you feeling like in the lead up to, you know, preparing for a new, a new baby to be in the house and like also preparing Addison, like, did you have any like worries or concerns about any of that? Oddly calm for someone who is, um, has a tendency to be a little bit anxious and worrisome, um, and get lost in their own head. uh, oddly, oddly calm about it all. Um, we'd been prepping Addison, um, to help out in the birth if necessary. Um, kind of glad she wasn't there for it. Lots of screaming. Um, but, uh, yeah, in the lead up, my, I was working with my team and they knew it was happening soon. So things were like taking care of ease of the mental load there. And at home, like I think Sarah was getting antsy about like, it's never going to come, it's going to be so late and if it goes too long then I'm going to have to transfer anyway and like all those sorts of things. So we did what we did for the first pregnancy, which was made plans. And of course, as soon as you make plans and get about doing stuff that you wanted to do and ignore the pregnancy, Yeah. Like the kid comes in and I think on the Monday, I was working from home and so I was like, my water's just broke. I'm like, okay, cool. Do we need to do anything? Is there anything accompanying with that? And she's like, no, I'm like, okay, cool. I went back to work. I just let my team know, hey. uh, my sports just broke and they're like, oh my God, do you need to go to hospital? Like, no, there's no contractions. Labor hasn't properly started yet. Like this could be like, this could be, I'll work from home for the next three days. I'll put in a request for that. But, uh, other than that, like we'll just sit and wait. So nothing happened that first day, the second day, um, early in the morning, I had the class and then, um, so I was online with them and I just finished up like, minutes and I was typing up some notes and I get a call and Sarah decided when I was in the class to take herself for a walk. Yeah. And of course that's when labor started with a vengeance. Yeah. And she tells it better, but she goes, I need you to pick me up. So I run out, I get in the car and I drive away. We always go for the walk. Every single time we have ever gone for a walk, we went one particular way. Of course, this time she decides she would go in a different way. Just change it up a little bit. Just change it up. Oh no. So I'm racing around this day. I go around up the street. She's not here. Maybe she went down that way. So I do a U-E, went back down the other possible way. We went one time. No, not there. And then, yeah, so I raced back all the way around the outside and ended up. find her. Yeah, she went in the complete opposite direction we've always gone. So yeah, I'm sitting on the side of the road there with a concerned neighbor poking your head out the window. So I got her in. Yeah, and then active labor started. The midwife, of course, decided to take their kid out that day. So she was in Newcastle, 40 minutes away. at 40 minutes if there's no traffic. Traffic. So she was speeding along the motorway after she got the call. The second midwife, the backup midwife was speeding along her way. They got here roughly at the same time. But in that time, Sarah had started labor. and was begging me to call her an ambulance and take her to the hospital. Yeah, really? Wow. And I was like, it's too late. Like, because we're regional. Yeah. What? By the time the ambulance gets here and they assess you and they load you up, you're giving birth on the side of the road. Yeah. Do you want to give birth in the ambulance on the side of the road? She's like, no. I'm like, right. So we've got to fill up the pool. And she goes, no, no. Don't start yet. And I'm like, you are clearly in labor. She goes, but I still might go to hospital. I'm like, no, you're clearly in labor. We need to get this. I need to get this pool started so that I can focus on you when you're really, really in labor. Like, yeah, yeah. Um, all the, all over 70 bucks. Because as soon as you. open the liner. You've heard this story. I was the same. As soon as you open the liner, that's used. It's gone. Yeah. But if we don't use the liner, we get 70 bucks refunded. Wait, we've just blown how many thousands of dollars in the midwife. I am not against me opening the liner and I just opened it in the bathroom. She's, oh, you've opened it. I'm like, yep. Too late now. I'm not sure if she remembers it that way, but yeah, that's, that's how. So I finished pumping it up, getting the water in. She was transitioning on the bed. Midwife came, coaxed it into the pool. If you're planning a home birth, have a bath, like a pool there. Like the way she tells it, it's night and day. Like it helps fight gravity. So everything becomes lighter, easier. And she went from having horrific pain to going into this. It was the coolest thing to watch this trance like. almost meditative state between contractions, gathering her focus, gathering her energy and then working through. And then, yeah, within two hours, yeah, Quinton was born. So we were holding him and he was real, I think, and a person sitting there. And it was amazing. It was a completely different birth experience. Yeah. And it happened so quick, I guess. What was your... Um, like what was going through your head when it was like actually happening, were you thinking like, oh my gosh, it's not been enough time or like, did you have any thoughts about that? Or you're just like, this is how it's happening. Yeah. So there's a couple of things. So, um, one of the, a really good resource, uh, that I used in, in the lead up to birth was, um, uh, what is it? Hang on the name of the podcast. Uh, the great. uh, birthing revolution, birth rebellion. Yep. That's the one. Yeah. I should know it off by heart by now. Um, cause I listened to a whole bunch of, I listened to a few of their episodes, particularly around the things like, um, uh, vitamin K, um, GBS, um, and a few other things, like other decisions we had to make along the way. Yeah. Um, but for partners, if there's apart from your podcast, If there's one podcast one must listen to as a support person, it is episode 28. Um, and it's episode 28, um, and it's how to be a support for a person in labor. It has lots and lots of practical, um, of lots of practical things in there. Um, and, and one of the things that stuck with me from it. was apart from being cheerleader, you have to have faith in your partner and that they can do this. Yeah. Even when they don't, you have to provide the faith for them. Yeah. And so that sort of stuck with me. So the, when she had doubts, I had none. Yeah. It's teamwork. Yeah. So I like, from the outset, I had complete... blind faith that that's what she was going to have. And because so much of birthing is psychological, you can't let that negativity, that doubt work your way in. You've got to be, and again, from a psychological point of view, a lot of people get caught up on plans and hopes and dreams and what they want and aspirations. rather than focusing on what is in front of them at the moment. Yeah. And focusing on the now and being present then and there and now. And one of the things, um, that I've learned and one of the things I like to do is, and so I'm not so flustered is focus on what is not what you want to be. Not what you think can be what is, what are we faced with now? So the reality of the situation at that time was, yes, you're in the way it was supposed to, it hurts. But unlike the first birth, where, because she was induced, there was no respite between the contractions. There was wave on wave on wave crashing into her. Yep. She had no breathing space. So then of course that necessitated an epidural. Yep. Um, and then, you know, there was other complications in like, you know, so the fact that she had it, um, interference led to another insurance, which led to another one later. Yeah. So cascade. So this time it was like, no, everything is going as should be. Yeah. You get into that water. I guarantee you, you'll feel better. That's why we got it. That's like, you know, um, And that's why we've got the big one. So I could jump in there with her as well, which I ended up doing in the end. Yeah. But yeah, so for anyone who's a birth partner, that episode 28 for the great birth rebellion Indeed, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is the one, if you're gonna listen to one, listen to that. Yeah, amazing. Yeah, after this one. Yeah, I'll make sure to link that specific episode in the show. And my episode description. Yeah. Do you have any final words for partners and dads out there that, you know, something that you wish you could have heard or anything like that? So another podcast that I like to listen to on the trip to work is how other dads dad. Oh, OK. Is that with Hamish Blake? It's surprisingly like down to earth, easy to listen to, very funny. Um, you get lots of perspectives from, from a whole range of different dads in different circumstances, and they will touch on, on their birth stories, um, in and out. Um, and, uh, one of the things that came up, uh, they talk about is holding the space and it comes up, staying around episode, perhaps I can't remember. Um, but yeah, that, that. phrase, holding the space. So you need to advocate, you need to be the cheerleader. You need to be that foundational solid rock to cling to when like, you know, you get, you're getting assailed by pain and doubt and drama. And don't be afraid to advocate and say, no, We need some space, we need some time. Can everyone leave? Set boundaries, enforce those boundaries. Know what you want and know what you don't want. And you don't know what you don't know. Yeah. And don't be afraid to ask and reach out. But advocate for your family and back yourself and your partner. That's the biggest one. Yeah. being able to advocate and back yourself and your partner. Yeah. Because no one else will, they'll do what's convenient for them. Yeah, for the system. Absolutely. That's amazing. So many good points. And yeah, I feel like I need to write it down about the car. Like you spend more time thinking about what car you're gonna buy. That's so true. Thank you so, so much, Robert, for your time today. and I really hope this helps somebody out there listening. Me too, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thanks for your time. Thank you.