In episode 21, Jessie shares with us why after an induction that she didn't know she was allowed to decline, she chose a wild pregnancy and freebirth with her second baby. It was great to listen to Jessie tell her story - true birth story medicine!
Links to people/business/resources for this episode:
CHAPTERS
00:31
Jessie's Hospital Induction Story
03:04
Choosing Home Birth for Frankie
05:25
Discovering Home Birth and Free Birth
06:46
The Impact of Jessie's Birth Experiences
09:36
Jessie's Wild Pregnancy with Frankie
12:02
Preparing for Frankie's Birth
21:52
The Birth of Frankie
34:37
The Birth of the Placenta
36:02
Recovery and Healing
39:39
The Impact of Free Birth
In episode 21, Jessie shares with us why after an induction that she didn't know she was allowed to decline, she chose a wild pregnancy and freebirth with her second baby. It was great to listen to Jessie tell her story - true birth story medicine!
Links to people/business/resources for this episode:
CHAPTERS
00:31
Jessie's Hospital Induction Story
03:04
Choosing Home Birth for Frankie
05:25
Discovering Home Birth and Free Birth
06:46
The Impact of Jessie's Birth Experiences
09:36
Jessie's Wild Pregnancy with Frankie
12:02
Preparing for Frankie's Birth
21:52
The Birth of Frankie
34:37
The Birth of the Placenta
36:02
Recovery and Healing
39:39
The Impact of Free Birth
Hi, welcome to Birthing at Home, a podcast. I'm Elsie, your host. I'm a home birth mom of two little boys. I'm a mental health nurse, a home birth advocate broadly, but also more specifically in the state of Victoria, and I'm an ex -student midwife. Before we begin, I would like to acknowledge the Wurundjeri people who are the traditional custodians of the land I'm recording on in Melbourne, Australia. I would also like to acknowledge the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples who have been birthing at home. on country for tens of thousands of years prior to the British invasion and acknowledged that sovereignty has never been ceded. This is episode 21 from Jessie in Sydney, who shares with us briefly her hospital induction story with her first baby AJ and how that led her on a journey to choosing something completely different with her second baby Frankie, who she had a wild pregnancy with and then free birthed at home with the support of her husband. We also discussed birth story medicine and also how Jessie's tailbone broke during the birth of Frankie. If you are enjoying this podcast, please rate and review it. And if you really love it, supporting it through purchasing a shirt or buying me a coffee would be so appreciated. You can find all the links in episode description or in the Instagram bio. Enjoy. Welcome Jessie to the Birthing at Home, a podcast. Thank you. I'm very excited to be here. Yes, I was just saying to you that I was looking back in our Instagram messages and it's had this planned for a while. So it's awesome to finally get to meet each other. Do you want to start off by just telling the listeners about a little bit about who you are, where you live, who's in your family kind of thing? Yes, I would love to. So my name is Jessie. I live in Sydney in Australia. with my partner Tom and my two children AJ who is three and Frankie who has just turned one. Yeah, nice. Oh, we both. That's right. There's so many Frankies. I also have a Frankie and then Poppy who was on a couple of weeks ago. She also has a Frankie. Yeah. Is your Frankie a girl or a boy? A girl. A girl. Yeah. Poppy's was a girl as well, but I have a boy Frankie. That's so cool. It's becoming much more popular, that name, I think. Yeah. I was told that if a colleague told me the other day that if I've called Frankie, like plainly Frankie, not like short for something. that that means that he's going to be a lot of trouble. So I was like, great. Um, not taking that on for myself. Um, so AJ was born in hospital. Is that right? Yes. Yeah. And then Frankie was a free birth. Yeah. So do you want to give like a, um, brief, I guess, summary overview of, um, I guess your pregnancy with AJ and I guess maybe in the context of, you know, why you chose to then free birth with Frankie. Yeah, I'd love to. Yeah. So when I fell pregnant with AJ, I was 21. And I was the first out of all of my friends to have babies. So I just kind of followed the advice of my doctor and some older family members and yeah, started following. the hospital system, going and getting all of the tests done and yeah, just navigating that. And when it came to the, towards the end of my pregnancy, I started to feel a lot of pressure because I was told that I was starting to go overdue by the midwives. Yeah. And I kind of, like I knew that I didn't want to be induced. Intuitively, I kind of, felt like everything was fine with my baby. There wasn't actually any medical reason for me to be induced and I was feeling very coerced into it and I actually wasn't told that I could refuse an induction. Yeah, okay. So they started saying to me, we're gonna have to book in the induction. I was about 41 weeks at this stage and then they said to me, the latest that we're gonna let you go is 41 plus five. But we actually don't have any spots available that day. So you need to book in two days earlier at 41 plus three. And then I started crying and I said, I don't want to be induced. Like this was not part of my plan. And even still, nobody shared with me that I didn't actually legally have to. Yeah, that you could say no. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I booked in the induction and. Went through that whole process. That was a 48 -hour process. She ended up being born vaginally Everything was okay, but I just was left with such an empty feeling and I knew that something wasn't right With my whole experience so Yeah, you know about free birth or home birth or that kind of stuff before you became pregnant or had AJ? No, I didn't know about home birth until I had actually gone to my first mother's group meetup after she was born. Yeah. Yeah. And then I was, that's when I found out about home birth. And then it was a little while after that, I came across the Free Birth Society podcast on Spotify. And that's when I started learning about free birth. Yeah. Amazing. That's, yeah, quite a common experience that people don't even know that home birth is an option. And that's, Mm -hmm. Yeah kind of my whole thing like just getting it out there that it is an option or birthing at home absolutely and I suppose that that probably you know, I guess that sense of disempowerment Did that like affect your postpartum with AJ do you think? I don't think it actually I was kind of gaslit into believing that my experience was normal. Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I kind of suppressed a lot of that, I think, until a lot later, until I think when I am free birth Frankie, that's when I released a lot of those emotions. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Because yeah, you. Like especially if you haven't discovered, you know, alternate ways, I guess that there is this sense that the normal path for, I think it's like 98 % of women in Australia is to go and have their baby in the hospital and we have this, we have so much trust in the healthcare system that, you know, especially when you talk about consent and everything, that's like a big thing. especially in Australia and like how to improve it. And so you expect that like in the medical system, all of these rules will apply that, you know, you'll be respected, informed consent, that kind of stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So you just, yeah. But then, so you found out about birthing at home from mother's group. And do you remember like what your first thoughts about that were when you know you heard that this was an option or some other women? you know, birth this way. Yeah. My first thought was that I'm doing that next time. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. And so you find out you're pregnant with Frankie and do you want to guide us through that journey? Yeah. I'll take you back a little bit before that. So I actually fell pregnant in between AJ and Frankie. Okay. Yeah. And, I knew that I wanted to have a home birth and I was trying to get into the midwife caseload at the public hospital, my local public hospital, so they would have the midwives come to my home and I could birth at home. So I started going down that route and began having the blood tests and the ultrasound with my doctor and getting in contact with the hospital. And then when I was nine weeks pregnant with that baby, we actually lost them. Okay, yeah. And I felt very strongly that that was a push for me to take a different route. Yeah. Because I was, I knew about free birth and I kind of thought that it was a little bit crazy. But then at the same time, I felt very drawn to it. My partner was not on board at this stage. Yeah, okay, yeah. Um, so yeah, when we lost that baby, that's when I felt like, no, this is the wrong path. Like we're supposed to be doing it a very different way. Um, and that was a really big push for me. So then two months later, that's when we fell pregnant with Frankie. Yeah. Wow. And what, how would you, you know, knowing that you've chosen free birth with Frankie and, um, embarking on I guess that pathway with the with midwifery care like do you have like any words to describe that I guess that initial care that you received like because you know a lot of people want that midwifery continuity of care so I'm just interested like yeah like what did you feel like you connected with the midwife or do you did you feel like maybe that you didn't want? You know, people interfering, I guess sometimes in pregnancy, even having a midwife can be felt as like intervention in a way. Because I was still so early in my pregnancy, I never actually made it to meeting a midwife. Yeah, OK. So I don't think the hospital doesn't take on care until you're about 18 weeks pregnant. Oh, wow. That's when they take over from the GP here. Yeah. Yeah. And so was your GP like when you thought that you would go down the group practice route? Did you go to the GP first? Yes. Yeah. And do you remember, like, did they suggest the MGP to you? Because that's also another issue is that. GPs in particular seem to not be giving women all of the options. I actually went to them saying that that's specifically what I wanted. Yeah, cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because I had heard about it through my mother's group and they told me that I needed to get in early as well because there were so many, it was very limited spots. Yeah. So yeah, as soon as I walked in that door with my GP, I was like, I want that referral letter. Yeah. Yeah. Put right this down. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. And. So I guess between AJ and having that pregnancy and losing that baby, what kind of, I want to say like education were you kind of absorbing during that period that might have like prepped you for, you know, feeling confident enough to free birth? A lot of podcasts. Amazing. And then basically I was just following my intuition. Like I really didn't dive much into the education part of things until I was pregnant with Frankie. Yeah. And so then I guess with Frank, Frankie's pregnancy, did you have a wild pregnancy with Frankie? Yes. Yeah. Cool. Do you want to explain your experience of that a little bit? Yes, I would love to. So my experience with Frankie, I felt so connected to her and my body and my intuition. And I just felt like I was really in charge of myself and my baby. And, um, Yeah, the way that my whole experience was going and it was it was very empowering, but it was also like a very lonely time for me because I didn't really have a like minded community in that way. Like my friends and family, we decided that we were going to keep our choices from them just to kind of protect our energy and like to avoid. pressure from them. Yeah. So it was isolating but empowering at the same time. Yeah, yeah. And like, I guess, where does, how does Tom's journey, I guess, fit into this, you know, because you said that Tom wasn't on board initially. What did he kind of think about it initially? He was very shocked. He thought that I was absolutely crazy. Yeah. And yeah, it took him a little, it took us a lot of conversations to kind of get to a point of compromise. Yeah. He, I actually asked him before I came on today to talk to you. Yeah. He said that he knew that because I had set my mind to it, I wasn't going to budge. Yeah. I was very, very determined to do it this way. Yeah. So yeah, after many, many conversations, we came to the compromise that we would hire a doula. Okay, yeah. Who would be at the birth and postpartum. So yeah, that's what I did. I hired a beautiful doula to come and help us, but I always had an inner knowing that I didn't actually need her. Yeah. But I think it was just peace of mind for him to have. her not only to support me but to support him because I think he felt nervous about being my one point of support and then we would have my two -year -old there as well. Yeah absolutely. With your pregnancy with AJ you said that you just kind of like followed whatever tests. So with Frankie, I guess you felt pretty then determined to avoid everything like that. Yeah. Yeah. And did you do what kind of, I guess, did you do any work around, you know, I guess that intuition stuff like trusting your body because having those tests can be whether you, whether you like it or not, like handing that over to, you know, a blood test or an ultrasound or something that can also be a little bit disempowering. You know, you're putting that in somebody else's hands. So to work, to trust your body and trust that everything was okay. Did you do any work, particular work around that? I did. I did. I did a lot of work actually. Yeah. I basically, I listened to Like when I say I listen to a lot of podcasts I say like I mean it I was listening to them all day every day Just learning other people's stories I also did like I was very big into meditation and Taking the time to really sit with myself and my baby and just be and feel into Yeah, my what my intuition was telling me I? how I was feeling, if I was feeling safe or not. And then I did the Free Birth Society Complete Guide to Free Birth. I did that as well, which I think made me feel much more confident in my body's ability. Just kind of having the knowledge of like, yeah, the hormonal blueprint and yeah, it just, it... Yeah, I feel like it gave me everything that I needed to know. And did Tom listen to any of these many, many podcasts? He did not. He did not. That's pretty incredible. He did not. He just he's very trusting towards me. He knows that, yeah, I'll learn whatever I need to know and then kind of just relay the points on to him, like the most important points. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like we spoke about what would happen in a situation where things weren't going ideally how we would want them to go. And then we spoke about things like how he may be able to support me, but that's really it. Like he was just winging it. Yeah, that's pretty incredible. You yourself, did you have any particular challenges or fears that you? had to specifically work on to overcome because, you know, having gone through a vaginal childbirth before, you know, I guess there's, there's quite a few bits to it. And so like for some people, like myself, for example, I was quite occupied about the birth of the placenta, not even just the, not the birth, the birth of the placenta, because you know, in my first, birth experience at home, I had to have the, I was made to feel like I had to have the, um, sin, toast and an injection. And so then I had like this, Oh, well, what if it doesn't happen? Like, what are my boundaries? Did you have any particular challenges or fears? Yeah, I did. Um, I had quite a few, but they were quite brief. Like, I feel like I was able to move through them very quickly. And they were more towards the end as well, like just things like being fearful of the pain and what if my baby didn't survive? What if I didn't survive? Just all of these things that I guess every birthing woman would kind of think about at some stage. But nothing that was so huge that ever made me feel like, Oh my God, I can't do this. Like, I need to go and get help. Yeah. Yeah. And so in the lead up to the labor with Frankie, were you doing any thing particular? Like obviously you listened to your podcast. Were you doing any other regular things? No, not really. I was just, kind of nesting around the house and making some freezer meals and yeah, I really felt like I needed to just kind of cocoon myself in my house. Yeah. Yeah. So I didn't socialize for a while and yeah, it was a really beautiful time because my daughter and I, we got to spend so much time together. Yeah. Just the two of us. Yeah. So yeah, I I wasn't really doing anything in particular to prepare for the birth. Yeah. Did you do anything in particular with or for AJ to prepare her for, you know, being in the birth space? Yes, actually we did quite a fair bit. So she would, we would watch some birth videos on YouTube and we would practice like, the sounds that she may hear me making. So like I would make the sound and then she would do it as well. I just talked to her a lot about things that she might see and yeah, I spoke to her a lot about how my doula would also be in the space and yeah, but none of it mattered because she slept through the whole thing. Still, still. How many times did you meet with the doula whilst you were pregnant? Yeah, we had our meet and greet and then two official catch -ups at my house. Yeah, amazing. Do you want to then walk us through the story of the birth of Frankie then? I'm very excited. I don't get to relay this as often as I would like. All right, so my birth, it was long. So I was in early labor for 48 hours. I was having contractions, sensations 20 minutes apart for the whole 48 hours, but they would settle when I would go to sleep. So I was still able to sleep, which was amazing. So I went through the first day. Tom went to work. Um, I was just moving through them all day. I had an urge that I needed to deep clean the house. So I did that. Um, I cooked a bulk lot of food and then, um, the Friday night I had an acupuncture therapist come over. Oh cool. Yeah. Um, just because like my mother -in -law, she worked with this woman and, Um, yeah, I just felt like I needed to relax a little bit. Yeah. So I invited her to come over and she did all of her beautiful things and, um, it was, it was just so nice to have that body work. Um, right before, yeah, things started moving faster. So that was Friday night. She came over and then Friday I slept Friday night. I slept Saturday morning. I woke up. and my sensations were still 20 minutes apart. They weren't getting any stronger. And I said to my partner, all right, I think you should stay home from work today. Like, I feel like things are going to start to pick up. So he stayed home from work and we spent the day, just the three of us. It was very, very beautiful. We would go for walks to the park and sit at home like, and I would bounce on my ball, just listening to music and. It was a really special day for the three of us to spend that time together. And then yeah, it got to 8pm that night and my sensations were still 20 minutes apart. Not any closer together. So I decided that I was going to go to bed. And then two hours later at 10pm, my partner came to bed and he woke me up. And he went to sleep and I was kind of tossing and turning because my sensations were getting to a point where I couldn't sleep. And then after a little while I couldn't lay in bed anymore. So that's when I got up. I moved into our little tiny ensuite and there was a toilet, a basin and the shower and the toilet and the shower were like one step away from each other. It was like the tiniest space ever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I did not leave this bathroom the entire time. That's perfect. That's a perfect little setup. Yeah, it was good. So yeah, I started, I took a towel in and I placed it on the back of the toilet so I could sit backwards on the toilet and rest my head. Oh yeah. Yeah. And I was kind of sitting there for a while and then I had lost my mucus plug. Yeah. And I became very excited. I was like, oh my gosh, I can get in the shower. And I knew that I had to be very mindful because we have limited hot water. So yeah, I was very mindful of how long I was spending in the shower because I wanted to save the hot water for when I felt like I really needed it. So I spent quite a while like shifting from the shower to the toilet to the shower to the toilet to try and conserve that. hot water. And yeah, so when I was in the shower, I was like laying down on the ground in a child's pose position. And I would have the hot water just falling onto my lower back. And then when a sensation came, I would kind of move my body intuitively, like getting into a very deep squat or like just moving from side to side. Um, and it was, I was very quiet. Like I, I didn't wake my partner up. I didn't wake my daughter up. Um, and that was shocking because that was completely different to my first induced hospital birth. Um, cause I was like a whale there. So that shocked me a lot. Um, and yeah, after a while of doing that kind of shifting between the toilet and the shower, um, I became, I was very thirsty. Yeah. And I was like, I can't get out. I can't leave this bathroom. I'm going to have to wake my partner up. So I woke him up. And I was like, all I need you to do right now is just get me a drink. And he checked the time. It was 2 a .m. by that stage. So I'd been four hours kind of doing it solo. He brought in my coconut water. And yeah, from there, I started to get a little bit noisier. Yeah. And I could feel that I was kind of moving into transition. Yeah. But I don't know, I think because I had prepared myself for such a long birth experience, like two or three days. Yeah. I wasn't accepting the fact that I was so close to birthing her. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she, ah, let me collect my thoughts here. That's okay. So my partner, he was just kind of sitting on the toilet and he would hand me my coconut water every now and then it's just saying like, have a sip, have a sip. Yeah. And then I moved onto the toilet again and he tried to give me a back massage. Yeah. And I remember I snapped at him. I was like, don't fucking touch me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then he's like, oh. crap, all right. She's got this, she's on her own. And then, yeah, he kept saying to me, should I call the doula, should I call her? And yeah, because I thought that I still had hours and hours left, I kept saying, no, no, like, don't worry. I'm not even close. Not in that many words, obviously, I was like, no, not yet. And then, I was back in the shower again and I started feeling the fetal ejection reflex. Oh wow. And once I started to feel that I said, okay, call her. Yeah. And I was feeling that for quite a while. Like we weren't timing anything. So I'm not, I don't know how long everything was going for. Yeah. Time is often, well, pretty much always, I think, like a bit of a blur. Yeah, unless unless someone else is really keeping track of all of it. It's just it's non -existent. You're in like this weird space. Yeah. Yeah. So then, yeah, I felt the fetal ejection reflex for quite a while and then I stood up. No, I didn't stand up. I was sitting in a very deep squat. Yeah. And I felt a really big pop. Okay. Yeah. In my bottom area. Yeah. Nothing came out and I kind of knew that it wasn't my water's breaking and I didn't know what it was. But I didn't really have very much to think very much time to think about it because I just moved straight into the next sensation. But yeah. Hurt or anything or you just literally know? Yeah, I just felt a pop. I didn't feel any pain. Um, which was, yeah, pretty crazy now, now that I know what it was. I guess, um, I also know what it is. Um, I guess that's the power of physiology. Like if you let, yeah, your body, um, provide you with the, um, you know, endorphins and whatever else to, you know, manage to get on board, to help out with pain and stuff. Then, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's beautiful. So yeah, once I felt that pop, things began to move quite quickly. I remember reaching inside of my vagina and feeling the very top of Frankie's head. And I was like, oh my god, she's right there. But then, yeah, I had kind of thought, okay, I've got a few more hours now, like, I'm gonna have to spend so long pushing and... kind of setting myself up for mentally for a lot longer for an experience. So yeah, I decided, okay, I'm going to turn the hot water off now. I'll save it for when I really need it. And I stepped over to the toilet. I sat down, I had a sensation and I had my hand over my vagina. And with that sensation, her head just popped out. Wow. And I stood up and I was holding her head and I stepped back and I looked at her and she was facing me. So she, she had been posterior this whole time. And with that step back, she just kind of slid out and I caught her and pulled her up and looked at her and all her glory. And I said, um, my partner was in the background and he said, holy shit. And I was like, oh my god i did it! awesome! yeah i can only just like imagine like yeah like one minute Yeah, just like the change is so quick like, it's just like one minute Frankie is not there and then the next... Boom! Boom! She is! I agree, holy shit! Yep! Wow! And um... So the doula didn't get to arrive. So my doula, I actually didn't know that she had arrived. Okay, yep. She told me 10 minutes before Frankie was actually born, she arrived and she popped her head in. Okay, yeah. And she's like, oh yeah, she's fine. And then she went and started doing the dishes, God bless her. Amazing. Yeah, so she was downstairs, which was nice. And then when she heard the cries, Frankie's crying, she came upstairs and that's when she kind of... set the bed up with all the towels and it was really lovely to have her there to help with the aftercare. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess also like that's the power of learning to sit on your hands. I think they like refer to it like just because yeah, I guess people often think that dolers are there to like support during the labor and whatnot and be like physically present in the birth space. But yeah, like that's awesome that she just had a little look and was like, nah, she's got this. I'm going to go wash the dishes. That's amazing. She was incredible. She was everything I needed. And I think what made it so special was she was about 35 weeks pregnant and having a wild pregnancy and free birth herself. Wow. Did you, did you like, did she, had she planned that? Like that's amazing. Because then you're kind of like on the same journey together almost. Yes. Well, I think we were expecting Frankie to arrive much earlier. Because I was sometime between 42 and 44 weeks. I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, we were expecting Frankie much earlier. And I just kind of. Yeah, kept going and going and going. Yeah, still cooking, that's all right. Yeah. Yeah, amazing. And so what was the birth of the placenta like? So that was, so we ended up, we moved to the bed. Yeah. We waited until I felt ready. So I think it was about 45 minutes to an hour. Yeah. Until I felt, okay, I'm ready for placenta to like to go on birth my placenta. Yeah. So yeah, I took Frankie into the bathroom with me, squatted over my container and like my placenta just slipped out. Yeah, wow. So it was so easy. And then we moved back to the bed and by then my two year old had woken up and had come in and met her little sister and we kind of looked at the placenta together. Yeah. My partner and my two year old. cut the cord together, which was a very beautiful moment. Yeah. And then, yeah, my placenta went into the freezer. I was planning on burying it much, much earlier, but I actually only did that last week. Oh, wow. Yeah. To commemorate my daughter's first birthday. Yeah. Amazing. What did you plant above it? I actually just buried it in the ground because yeah, we're leaving to travel Australia next year. Oh, yeah. So I knew that I needed to put it somewhere and I felt the most special place for me to put it was in the yard of the home that she was born in. Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah. Wow. And what was your, you know, postpartum, like I imagine physically, quite different to the postpartum with AJ. Yeah. So I haven't mentioned yet, but once I started to kind of land from the birth, I began to feel quite a bit of discomfort in like my, my bottom area, my lower back. Yeah. And I ended up realizing that that big pop that I had felt was in fact my tailbone breaking. Wow. Wow. I remember actually when you shared your story in like Instagram post form and I was just like, what the heck? Oh my gosh, I've never heard of that before. Do you know how common slash uncommon that is? I had never heard of it. before until I shared my story and then all of these stories started popping up. People were like, oh my gosh, me too. Wow. So I think it is much more common than we think. Yeah. But yeah, it's not like, it's not something that you come across every day. No, that's incredible. And so yeah, the pain started to kick in with that. Yeah. Yeah. Probably like within a few hours once all of my hormones had kind of settled down. Yeah. That's when I began to feel the pain and that was quite honestly like excruciating. Yeah, yeah, well that's yeah. Yeah, absolutely. But I wouldn't change it. I would do it all again the exact same way. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think. Yeah, like I'm not sure like is that like I'm not really sure like where you would begin if you said oh I if you could let rewind and like play again Like what you would change because really that in my mind that could happen anywhere in any setting and exactly like Yeah, wow. And so what was the recovery like how long does it take for your tailbone to heal? It took about four months to heal completely. Yeah. But it was probably the first two or three weeks I was in pain. Like I couldn't sit. Yeah. At all. Yeah. After that I bought one of those donut cushions. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. And I could sit. It was a tricky time as well because she was born in November and then we had Christmas and New Year's. So we had all of these things that we were doing. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I think I kind of forced myself out of my postpartum healing bubble a little bit too early. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which I think inhibited my healing with my tailbone. Yeah. Um, but yeah, it was about four months all up until I could sit 100 % comfortably. Yeah. Um, but even still, like if it's, if it gets a little bit cold or I sit on like concrete for too long, then it gets a little bit achy. Yeah. But yeah, nothing too bad. Wow, that's incredible. The body is amazing. Yeah. And, you know, reflecting on, you know, the birth of AJ and Frankie, like, how would you say, you know, that for like, because hospital and free birth are worlds apart, really. How would you, you know, describe the impact of having that free birth? has had on you as a mom, a woman, a person. Yeah. My experience with having my free birth completely changed who I am. Yeah. It... It has given me, I feel the courage to trust myself. Yeah. And recognise that we don't need to live our lives and raise our children in a way that we are made to believe that we have to. Yeah. So yeah, since then, like I'm a total rebel now. I just do everything the way that I want to do it. Yeah. I don't. don't really care what anyone else thinks. And yeah, I think without that experience, I wouldn't have the self -trust and the courage to kind of step out of those norms. Yeah, when it comes to mothering and just life in general, I think. Yeah, yeah. I've heard some moms talk about, you know, that especially thinking about the hospital system, but also in some home birth situations with a midwife present that there's this element of people pleasing that happens. And I can empathize with that with my first pregnancy as well, that, you know, in society, like that's how we're raised. You know, stick to the status quo. Yeah, don't be a rebel. And if you're a rebel, you're being naughty and you will be reprimanded. And so, yeah, it's just like people pleasing following what everybody else says. And yet having their free birth, um, get really changed that for them. So I think that's like so, so powerful and probably, um, also contributes to, I believe there's a bit of a rise of free births in Australia, which is, um, Yeah, very empowering to hear, I think. Yeah, that 100 % is a rise. Yeah. Yeah. And it's so beautiful to witness. Yeah. And did you attend any mothers groups or things like that? I guess Christmas, having a baby around Christmas is so tricky, but did you, have you been able to share your experiences and knowledges about free birth in like mother type settings? So I never, I never sought out a mainstream mothers group because I felt like I needed to find my own community. Yeah, fair. And I ended up, like I did find my community at the beginning of this year. Yeah. And yeah, a lot of them are, like a lot of the women in the community are home births. So I have been able to share my story with them. Yeah. I'm also very open about my story when I just meet random mothers at the park or at the shops. So I'm very open about it. And then, yeah, just on online and on social media, I think that's where a lot of my impact around free birth is at the moment. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Thank you so much for sharing your stories with me. Thank you. Thank you for having me and giving me this space to share them. Of course. There's such medicine in sharing our stories. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, birth story medicine. Yeah, society, our birth culture really needs birth story medicine and your, yeah, I like you and so many, so many women really. become empowered by listening to the birth stories of others and the experiences of others and yeah I'm so grateful that you've contributed to being a part of this change. Thank you for having me. Thanks Jessi.