Welcome to 2024! & episode 17 of the podcast.
In episode 17 we hear from Claudia, mum of 6, Muslim mum & birth worker located in Sydney.
Claudia has had 3 births at home (#3, #5 & #6). It was super interesting to hear Claudia's diverse experiences with the Australian maternity system. Claudia and I also have some great discussion around birth culture in Australia and how even though birthing at home is an amazing birth place, the approach to homebirth often demands more work by the woman both physically and mentally.
Links to people/business/resources for this episode:
CHAPTERS
00:00
Introduction
01:28
Claudia's Background and Birth Work
05:41
Claudia's First Birth and Second babies born in a birth center
24:22
Claudia's third baby born at home experience
49:00
Claudia's fourth baby born in hospital
01:07:36
Choosing Home Birth after coercian and meddling from the hospital
01:15
Homebirth with fifth baby
01:16
Releasing Fears and Prioritizing Self-Nourishment
01:23
Choosing a Free Birth
01:31
Trusting the Body and Embracing the Unknown
01:37
Preparing for birth
01:42
Unconventional Positioning and Fluid Levels
01:46
Reflecting on the Birth Experiences
Welcome to 2024! & episode 17 of the podcast.
In episode 17 we hear from Claudia, mum of 6, Muslim mum & birth worker located in Sydney.
Claudia has had 3 births at home (#3, #5 & #6). It was super interesting to hear Claudia's diverse experiences with the Australian maternity system. Claudia and I also have some great discussion around birth culture in Australia and how even though birthing at home is an amazing birth place, the approach to homebirth often demands more work by the woman both physically and mentally.
Links to people/business/resources for this episode:
CHAPTERS
00:00
Introduction
01:28
Claudia's Background and Birth Work
05:41
Claudia's First Birth and Second babies born in a birth center
24:22
Claudia's third baby born at home experience
49:00
Claudia's fourth baby born in hospital
01:07:36
Choosing Home Birth after coercian and meddling from the hospital
01:15
Homebirth with fifth baby
01:16
Releasing Fears and Prioritizing Self-Nourishment
01:23
Choosing a Free Birth
01:31
Trusting the Body and Embracing the Unknown
01:37
Preparing for birth
01:42
Unconventional Positioning and Fluid Levels
01:46
Reflecting on the Birth Experiences
Hi, welcome to Birthing at Home, a podcast. I'm Elsie, your host. I'm a home birth mom of two little boys. I'm a mental health nurse, a home birth advocate broadly, but also more specifically in the state of Victoria, and I'm an ex-student midwife. Before we begin, I would like to acknowledge the Wurundjeri people who are the traditional custodians of the land I'm recording on in Melbourne, Australia. I would also like to acknowledge the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples have been birthing at home. on country for tens of thousands of years prior to the British invasion and acknowledged that sovereignty has never been ceded. Welcome to 2024 everyone. Today in episode 17 we have Claudia from Sydney sharing six birth stories which includes two home births and a free birth and in total spans about 16 years. Not only does Claudia share her stories but we have some great conversation around birth and birth culture including how Claudia's first birth experiences were influenced by people pleasing, which is a common experience amongst pregnant women, especially fast forward to 16 years later and her final birth, a free birth, which was arguably anything but people sleep pleasing. It is a longer episode, so please don't be overwhelmed. Pause if you need. Initially, I assumed Claudia's birth at home experiences would be her last three. However, that isn't the case. Enjoy. Welcome Claudia to the Birthing at Home podcast. Hi Elsie. It's so nice to be here. It's awesome to have you here. You're in Sydney, right? Yes, I am. Yeah. Yeah, cool. I'm very excited, but also a little bit nervous because you've got six awesome stories to share and we were just discussing. So three of those stories are. in a home setting and the other three are, I think you said in a birth center or hospital setting. Yeah. So I might just get you to give a little rundown of like who you are, who's in your family, and then we can start talking birth. Awesome. Yeah, so my name's Claudia. I am a 39, oh no, hang on, am I 39? I'm 38 year old, getting ahead of myself. 38 year old woman, mom of six. And living in Sydney. I'm a Muslim woman. Um, yeah. I, and I'm a birth worker. So I work in the space of coaching and mentoring women towards truly autonomous birth, no matter what that looks like. So. I help women to really unpack the way they're making decisions around their pregnancy, birth and postpartum, and then move towards decisions that will take them towards their goals that they're trying to achieve for their birth. Yeah, that's amazing. How did you like choose that path? Was that something that you found, you know, after having experiences of childbirth or? Yeah, so well after I had my fifth baby, I had so much kind of inner enthusiasm to support women in and around birth. I'd always loved birth since I was a kid, since I was a little girl. Yeah. I remember being really fascinated by it and even when I was a teenager, I used to actually make myself a pregnant belly out of like a pillow and the little almond for the out. outy belly button, everything. Yeah, really kind of weird, I get. Um, but that was always what I was into. And so after I had my fifth baby thinking at that time, okay, that's it, no more babies. How can I now start supporting women through their own experiences? And so that's what led me to train as a doler. Um, and at the time, I really, really enjoyed that training. And then as I kind of started to think about how I might like to support women, it became clear that really what interested me more than attending births in the hospital and being with women in birth is really helping them to dive deep into their blocks and their fears that are stopping them. from choosing what they really want and gaining a really deep awareness of the very real trappings of the system that I don't think are spoken about a lot. So yeah, I got a lot of mentoring and coaching from an incredible birth worker who lives up in Darwin, Lisa Masters. Yep. And... from there really got on that path of coaching and mentoring myself, yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's amazing. So when did you have your first baby, what year? So that was back in 2007. I was 22 years old. And it was just kind of by chance that I got on the path towards pursuing a natural birth. It was just a conversation with my auntie where she had mentioned what her intentions had been for her birth. And it got me interested. I was about midway through my pregnancy at that point when I even booked in. I booked into a birth center program that was attached to the hospital. So it was a publicly funded midwifery continuity of care model. And for me at that time, just kind of dipping my toe in the whole world of birth, I found it really positive, you know? And the thing is, you know, and we'll get to this later in this particular story is that, you know, it was an incredibly positive experience for me. And what I realized in hindsight was that I think it was so positive for me because of the the smoothness of my pregnancy and the smoothness of my birth and the fact that I did happen to have midwives who were extremely hands-off and supportive of physiological birth, which I think is an important point to make because, you know, it's not the reality for all women. So there are a lot of women who engage with that program. being told that they can expect that kind of an experience to, you know, for lack of a better term, kind of get booted out for a B or C reason down the line. So, so yeah, I mean, at that time, for me, it was really positive. I, I trapped along, you know, I, I was, I was a real kind of beginner in the whole world. So I had the book, what was it? What to expect? when you're expecting. So I, you know, poured through that book and just found it so fascinating what my body was doing and all of that. And I learnt as much as I could about, you know, the physiology of birth and, you know, what my body is going to be doing and all of that stuff. You know, so, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's amazing. Um, yeah, like for a first time, um, like first time childbirth experience, that's, um, still pretty cool that you found the birth center because I think, um, like I'm not sure in 2007, but, um, like, like now it's still not really, like some people might know of like continuity of care and, but I don't really think they know what that means sometimes. And especially if you've not. you know, gone through the whole process before. So even to choose, you know, a birth center model of care with midwifery-led care, that's still pretty amazing that you were able to do that. Did you, so you said that you spoke to your aunt, like family members and, you know, friends, had you heard like what their birth experiences had been or? Well, yeah, that's, that's. interesting that you mentioned that because my imprinting of the was really a positive one. You know, my own mum always used to tell us our birth stories quite freely and so she'd always spoken of them really positively. And so I did not have any fears. I didn't have any kind of real tangible or noticeable fears that I was able to identify about birth or about any of it really. And I mean, of course there were fears there. And if I really analyze that now, the reason I was engaging with the birth center or with any aspect of the system was because of fear. You know, it's because of the fear of, you know, all of the what ifs and all of that. So I still had a lot of those stories in my head, very much so. But yeah, I mean, the fact that I chose the birth center, if I'm honest, it was not so much. It was, I was very comforted by the fact that the birth center was part of the hospital. I was very comforted by that, if I'm honest, you know. And I used to kind of validate my choices, my choice to be in the birth center with family and friends by saying, oh no, well, it's, you know, it's right inside the hospital. So if anything happened, I'm right there. It's just through the doors. So yeah, yeah. You know, it's in hindsight, but I can really look back at my previous self and, and the motivations for my decisions. And I'm able to see how fear led a lot of it. people pleasing led a lot of it. However, I was still, I'm really, really lucky that I was still able to have an incredibly positive birth experience within that model of care. So, I mean, I did love that first birth. And then, so you had like that positive experience. And so when did you have baby number two? So baby two, just to give like a quick, you know, summary of my first birth, it was really kind of stock standard, you know. And so it really set me on the path of absolutely loving birth, really thinking what my body was able to do was just incredible. Yeah. You know, I had a water birth. She just kind of eased out. I, I some, I think because I was so left alone by the midwife, uh, I really was able to tap into my zone. I was really able to surrender to the process. Um, so yeah, that just. me on good footing for my subsequent birth. So the next baby came along 21 months after that. So that was my second girl, Alia, and it was the same program. So I went through the same midwife, same birth center program, had very much the same experience. And yeah, I mean, so at this point in my journey, I'm thinking, wow, the birth center is just amazing. It's just like this whimsical, fantastic option. So yeah, me it was at that time. But for many women, that isn't the reality. So I just you know, I just like to add in that there is that real nuance there. Very, I was very, very lucky that it served what I was what I was Yep. And did you say that you had the same midwives? Yes, I did. Yeah. Yeah, that's amazing. I feel like you don't come across that, especially in the medical system. Yeah, I feel like that's not super common. That's awesome. Cause that's like even that's like building onto the whole idea of continuity of care. It's not just in that pregnancy. It's like in subsequent pregnancy as well. Fantastic. It was so cool. And I mean, this is why I keep saying how lucky I was that I do realize how uncommon that is. And, you know, of course, you'd know as well that midwives who are trained within that system, whether they are working in the hospital, whether they are working in the birth center, or even when whether they are practicing, they do have a certain level of intervention that they expect to carry out. that's absolutely wonderful for the women who want that level of intervention. But I was really lucky that I had a midwife who was really kind of very blasé about birth in general, you know. So yeah, I really enjoyed her support. And in fact, she was my midwife when I got the publicly funded home birth for my third birth. So same program, same midwives for baby number three. Yeah, wow. Yeah. That is amazing. So with, did you say her name is Alia? Yeah, Alia's my second, yeah. Yeah, so with her birth, did you also have a water birth? I did, yeah. So, I mean, like what to say really about the births themselves? They were kind of, you know, like we don't necessarily. like to reference textbooks for any of this stuff but honestly if you open up a textbook of how birth goes that's how my birth went you know it was the it was seriously like you know seven hours active labor that kind of thing um but yeah i mean yeah the birth just happened it kind of kicked off it built up um you know i had my good old mum there rubbing my back i mean um my My first three babies were from my first husband who I separated from and later divorced after my third. So my, I mean, obviously he left the picture and then I remarried and had my subsequent babies with my current husband. But my mum's been like a steady, steady participant in every single one of my births. She's just amazing. She's my best friend. So, yeah. So, I mean, Alia, she, I arrived at the birth center, things were really intense, but actually really kind of, I find when I think back about all my births, her birth was the most easy to handle, the actual sensations. Got into the water, around transition, and I remember I was joking around with mum. I was in the water, and Yeah, I we were still joking around between contraction. And we said between one contraction, oh, man, we've still got ages to go because we're still joking. And then it was within about 15 minutes, I felt this almighty drop like her head just smacked against my pelvis. And then within one push, her head popped out. It was just completely unexpected. And I was just freaking out. And yeah, she had, you know, a decent tear, which is like, kind of, I guess, not uncommon if your head, your baby's head just pops out that far. And then she just shot out. And the thing is, we do joke because that she entered how she continued because she is that kind of person. She's always been the wild one. So yeah, she came along. I mean, everything was always just so normal. Placenta, you know, I can't even remember giving birth to the placenta, which, you know, if I unpack the births further than just kind of skimming the surface, there are things, there are definitely aspects of the care and support I really wish that I had been opened up to these other aspects of what my birth could be regarding taking notice of my placenta and any of that. I honestly do not even remember giving birth to them. There was no, there was just no notice taken of that. When I look back on those earliest moments of my postpartum period, I mean like the hours after I'm all dressed up again, babies in a blanket. So there's always teasing out that we can do in reflection of course. So at that time with what I knew they were fantastic experiences, would they serve me and fulfill me now? Absolutely not, which is why I kind of went on and progressed to different like ways of doing it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In those first two experiences, did you do any like particular education or like with Nadeema, you said you read what to expect when you're expecting or whatever the book is? Did you like, do you remember any other resources that you found? Yes. I mean, they were basically just books. I was pretty adamant and my mum actually said to me, Oh, you know, I really recommend that you do a one of the hospital birth classes. You know, they're, they really help you to get an idea of how it all goes and everything. And I kind of intuitively knew that I didn't want or need that. Um, and I mean, now looking back, of course, I see those classes pretty much as just lessons in being groomed in hospital. protocol. But yeah, no, I decided that I wasn't interested in any of those things. And I, alongside that good old what to expect when you're expecting, I also read a book which I've got so much just really fond memories of and a lot of nostalgia. And it's called Adventures in Natural Childbirth. And I read that book cover to cover. It's one I've never heard of since ever, ever being talked about or shared. And I mean, I love this book because what it was, was just a book full of different women's stories of natural childbirth. And I mean, of course, like you can always dig in what is natural childbirth and all of that. But at the time I really appreciated hearing the stories of women and... So that's been something that has always resonated with me way above and beyond statistics and this and that and what this body of research says. I actually care quite little about that. What really lights me up and always has and continues to do so is hearing the stories of women. Like for me, that is the strongest evidence, you know? And so this was a book that I just poured over the pages of and I, yeah, I absolutely love that book. So I read that cover to cover many times. Um, yeah, yeah. And yeah, like, I mean, I, I had a few others that I can't even remember, but I was just, I mean, I borrowed books from the birth center library, you know, um, active birth by Janet Velasquez. Um, a few of those big titles. Um, yeah, yeah. That was pretty much it. Just kind of did some reading and I thought, oh, this is just going to be all right. I'll just see how it goes on the day. But I, I really had confidence that I'd be able to do it. Yeah. That's amazing. Would you have described yourself as like a confident woman, you know, at 22, 23, you know, having these experiences? Uh, well, that's a really interesting question because actually I was absolutely not a confident woman. And that, that is what, and I can, I can speak a little bit about this as we go on to further birth stories, but that is what has been the source of a lot of sabotage of my previous births is my inability to stand up for what I wanted. My inability to have difficult conversations with family members, I'm really steeped in people pleasing. So I, I definitely have. not been a confident woman up until probably quite recently in my early 30s when I started kind of unpacking everything around my births and why I made decisions that I made and how that affected my experience and all of that and I really credit as I mentioned her name at the start of this episode I really credit my coach Lisa Masters who helped me to unpack all of my stories and see how those themes apply to all areas of my life. And I mean, that's what I've then gone on to do with women, the women I now work with. So yeah, I was not a confident woman. But I just kind of in the realm of like handling the process of birth, I really think I did have a lot of confidence. So, yeah, kind of a two pronged thing, really. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's quite complex because I would kind of say a similar thing about me and I know that there's more discussions amongst women and on other podcasts about people pleasing and especially, you know, as women, we're kind of, I guess, in society brought up to people, please. It's like part of like the culture, I guess. And then how, yeah, that, how that goes on to potentially sabotage us when we have these really meant to be really empowering experiences. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And so, yeah. And so after you had Alia, you chose not to go back to the birth center? So yeah, I fell pregnant. fairly quickly after I had Alia. So she was just five months old or six months old when I fell pregnant with my next one, my first boy, Noah. So that, at that time, my marriage was like really kind of just unstable, quite toxic. And then I find myself pregnant again. So, you know, whoops. Of course, like they're just always the biggest blessings. So. Yeah. So with that kind of backdrop of where I was, I was feeling, I was a very kind of jittery, nervous, scared woman in my mid 20s. And, and so I went, I went back to that same birth center. And then they said to me, look, Claudia, you just you just plopping out these babies, no issue. Come on, have that home birth. because it was publicly funded. So they said, look, we'll just come to your house. Let's do this. You can plop out your baby at home. Yes, exactly. Yeah, so much more convenient. So they had actually said that to me with my second, even with my first, I believe. But By the time I'd had my second baby, by the time I was pregnant with my second baby, I think if I had done the digging and really questioned why I was not going forward with a home birth, I would have to admit that it was probably because I thought to myself, there's no way I can have that conversation with my husband at the time. Like there's no way I can bring that up to have a home birth, you know? So, so then- Was he- I guess very briefly, was that in a sort of controlling sense or was that in a, no, it's not safe. You should be birthing in hospital. That's what women should do, go and birth in the hospital. Yeah, it was definitely not in a controlling sense. I think that he was more on the spectrum of apathy towards me rather than control. It was sort of the opposite end. So I definitely think it was more just I didn't want to have, I didn't want to voice an opinion or have a conversation around my denial of the status quo. You know, I can't even really say that I feel sure he would have disagreed with it, but I just didn't even want to bring it up. Yep. So, yeah. Yeah. And so I thought, oh no, just keep your head in and just, you know, plot along and do the same thing you've done. But then by the time I was pregnant with my third, I thought, oh yeah, let's just do it. Let's just see if we can do this. So I, you know, I spoke to him and in the same way that I used to tell that I was telling family and friends, Oh, okay, birth centers, save, because it's attached to the hospital, the way I framed it to him was. Oh, well, you know, home birth is safe because like they bring everything, they bring the oxygen tank and they bring this and that and all the trappings of the system. They'll just take it to your home. So it's OK. So he agreed with that. And and off we went. The thing is, like people pleasing did play such a massive role in this particular journey because, you know, I did not actually even tell my mother-in-law who, like there's been so many elements to this, because my mother-in-law was coming to my birth and I was more than happy to have her there, luckily, but I did not tell her once during my entire pregnancy that I was having a home birth because I was too scared. I was too scared. Oh my goodness. Yeah. I mean, these are the depths that I kind of came from of people pleasing. Yeah. Quite, quite full on. Yeah. So when you mention it to your mum, who's, you know, been such a strong support with Nadeema and Alia, you know, that, you know, I'm actually going to have this baby at home, was she on board with it? Oh yeah, absolutely she was because she she's also got quite a blase attitude about birth and her imprint of birth was very much influenced by my father who I mean he he's not in our life and hasn't been since I was little but what he said to her when she was pregnant with me was oh birth's easy you know I've grown up on a farm and I've seen um you know Sheep give birth all the time. It's simple. Yeah. And so he literally just equated it. Sheep gives birth, boom, plop out. Yeah. That's how humans do it. And so she was like, oh, okay. Cool. Easy. So she's taken that attitude, um, right through her own births and then, and then my birth and so she was like, yeah, cool. Easy. Do it. Yeah. Uh, so yeah, like. I mean, I remember her telling me at one point when I was saying, hey, mom, I'm so scared to tell my mother-in-law that I'm birthing at home. She was trying to shake me out of it. What do you have? Like she had her choice, her choice when she was giving birth to her babies. This is your life, your turn, your birth. Like, you know, but it takes so much, it takes so much more deep diving to really uproot these of standing up for yourself. Yeah. So I, you know, end of my pregnancy, still haven't told her that I'm going to have birth at home. And marriage was extremely on the rocks. Like there was so much toxicity coming from my ex-husband. Like I can't even really do due diligence to this story without mentioning. um, how kind of downtrodden I felt at that time, uh, within, within my marriage dynamic, you know, I like, so I went into early labor, um, and I mean, he had just to be, just to kind of put things in, into context. He did have a, like a, a drug issue that was kind of really rearing its ugly head at that time. It had been an issue that definitely impacted my first birth. What I mean by that is his behavior was really kind of erratic. There was some bullying. how that framed my birth. You know, I was going into early labor and, and I, you know, you kind of get really nasty. Yeah. As you'd know, of course, as we'd all know. And I, I was in quite strong labor. And I remember saying to him, look, can you, can you vacuum please? Cause I can't stand all these crumbs and bits on the floor. Yeah. And so, yeah. And so there was just he kind of just flew off the handle and so I remember just breaking down and I had a huge contraction. It was really ramping up. I had a huge contraction and I was just on the floor and I remember sort of breaking down and crying to Mum, Mum if he's not gonna, if he's gonna just keep being mean to me you need to tell him he has to just go, he can't be here. It was just... so much drama and, and you know, like, it all comes down to the fact that I was not able to advocate for myself. I was, I was really not in a place back then to be able to even see how much I was allowing my, my whole life to really be sabotaged, you know? Yeah. But yeah, that's just a really important element of what played out. Yeah, absolutely. I guess it really comes into the whole idea that, you know, people give like, like home birth is meant to kind of equate with safe. And if you don't feel safe in, you know, your space, like that's meant to be your home, then you had yeah, you really do need to be able to advocate to make it a safe place. Was your mom you know, able to help you manage that situation? Uh, yeah, she really did. She did her very best to kind of create a bit of a safety bubble around me and help to block out the negativity coming from that angle. It did definitely. hinder my ability to go into the zone, you know, as I had been so easily able to do with my first two. So as a result of that, getting in the bathtub because the birth pool had a leak in it, my labor pretty much stalled for hours and hours. And it's only through kind of unpacking things through hindsight that I was able to say, oh, wow, my adrenaline was absolutely peaking. So it cut right out, cut right through the ability of my oxytocin and my endorphins to do their job. And so I was feeling so much pain, so much. I felt like I was almost being tortured in those contractions. I was mentally feeling so scared and so freaked out. And I can see now that it was the entire environment. It was, yeah, every, all of those external factors that were, that were at play, that kept me completely in my fight or flight rather than being able to go into my primal brain. Wow. So, you know, I mean, putting that aside, like my labor stalled in the, in the bath there. I was, I was literally having contractions every minute or so, really like heading into transition, got in the bath. it was max stress and then my labor just pretty much petered out for hours. And I was having a contraction about every 10 minutes for several hours. But I mean, the birth process is extremely robust and strong. So my body just kept plodding along, got through it. Man, I was happy to get to the end where I was pushing. Once I reached pushing with him, I was, I was like, oh, that's it. It's it's happening. I it's nearly over. And I. I loved it. Loved pushing, pushed him out in the bath, and I've never. felt relief like that in my entire life. Wow. And yeah, it was just extremely, just the mental load of trying to labor with all of that stuff going on took a huge toll, which is why it's so important for women to have that support in their pregnancy to be able to have a light shone on those influences in pregnancy so that they can. just be supported to examine the ways that these, any negativity and any of these influences can have a huge impact on how their birth plays out. Yeah. So yeah, yeah. I mean, like that kind of support almost didn't really exist back then. It's so, it's becoming really widespread now, which is fantastic, but yeah. I think- That was the journey with that one. Yeah, I think what you... Yeah, like, I feel that there's, you know, I'm on lots of like, mom group, like Facebook groups, and, you know, I see, you know, about co-sleeping and, like, other birth groups and, you know, often it's like, you know, my partner says this, my partner says that, my partner doesn't agree with this. um my partner and um his family are saying this and that and this and that and I guess like you don't I guess society's understanding of birth isn't so much that it's so hormonal and it is like it is this primal experience and if you don't have um if you don't feel safe and listen to and heard in those you know regular conversations then you really need to think about how you're going to be able to feel safe and heard in the birth space because as soon as you're not, like you're quite right, the adrenaline kicks in, the oxytocin is what's meant to be, you know, driving the, the labor. Um, but also something interesting that I listened to from the midwives cauldron the other day is about, um, I actually can't remember the correct term that they called it, but I'm going to say, um, physiological plateaus, uh, during labor and how, um, we, I guess like we imagine, uh, labor to be, you know, this Well, I mean, in a hospital setting, they're like, okay, like after this many hours, this should happen. And after this many hours, this should happen. And you should be this many centimeters dilated. And if we don't have a baby before then, you know, it's like a straight line. But, um, in this episode about, um, physiological plateaus, it really does describe that, um, your body is very clever and, um, you know, even with adrenaline playing its part and whatever. Um, there is. Um, in many cases, um, you know, reason for labor to slow down and, um, you know, if it's not like acutely indicated that something actually is the, is wrong, I guess, you know, you wrong, then it's okay to just like relax. Everybody relax. The baby is coming. It's a big process. Um, so I'm really, I guess, um, Impressed it maybe is the term that Your midwives were able to also let hold that space that it's okay Like your labor has slowed down, but there's no need to you know panic and transfer and all of these other things. That's Yeah, quite amazing. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, I again I was really Really lucky there was Absolutely, no There was no talk at all that I remember whatsoever about, oh, okay, do you wanna, you know, do you wanna, I don't know, do some kind of crazy intervention, like breaking your waters or anything heinous like that. You know, I mean, actually, I do remember at one point, the midwife, because I was in the bathtub, she's sitting on the toilet saying to me, you know, if you wanted, you could, you could get out of the bath and that would probably help things to, to speed back up again. Or you can just chill out here, like your call. So there was a, there was, that was thrown out there as a suggestion, but there was absolutely no hint of coercion in that of like, how about we do this? She said, you could do that. That would. probably happen, might happen, or you could do this and that might happen and whatever. We really don't care whichever. So, you know, like I was just very, very lucky, you know, really lucky. A lot of women in that situation would have a midwife who would be saying, okay, look, how about we do this? How about we do that? You know, we know that is really common. So I'm really grateful for that. I was very, very happy with the support that they gave me. But yeah, like, of course, the other thing, just to go off what you mentioned there about the physiological plateaus, of course, absolutely, you know, a woman could have zero stress and all the support in the world and she's rocking it, she's having an amazing experience, hits transition and then something kind of happens and then there's a plateau and of course, like we know that. know, as there's that hormonal shift and the body sort of rests before pushing, a bit of a plateau is totally normal at that time as well. So, you know, there's no need for any kind of pigeonholing really of any different things that happen in birth, but in my experience, just speaking about fright I was feeling. I have kind of put my own massive slowdown of labour down to those elements. But yeah, like as you said, the body is really wise, it is really smart and it got the job done. And yeah, that was my first experience. Who did you have supporting you had your mom? Did your mother-in-law attend the birth? Yes, that's right. Yeah, I didn't end that part of the story. So I mean, that was another aspect to the huge level of stress that I was feeling because I was literally about to get in that bathtub, you know, really in transition almost. And I remember calling my mother-in-law. And I mean, thinking back on it, it's just so crazy that I was the one calling her as well, rather than my husband at the time. I mean, the whole thing is just so bizarre, isn't it? And I'll just do that job. Don't worry. Yeah, I'm about to push out the baby, but let me just call my mother-in-law first. Yeah. So I, I remember speaking to her. And she said to me, okay, cool, you're in labor. So when, what time do I meet you at the hospital? And it's at that moment that I said to her, actually, I'm not going to the hospital, I'm having a home birth. And I mean, yeah, freaked me out. So I had every completely like dripping with adrenaline. But yeah, yeah. So that was that, that was that story. I mean, and then she did, she, She was really cool about it. I mean, that's the thing. These were all my own stories. It was like I was keeping myself prisoner. Yeah. And so, yeah, yeah. That's how it was. She turned up, she was cool, she was supportive. There were actually no issues. It was all just of my own making. Yeah. But yeah, yeah. It really had a huge impact on my birth. Yeah. And was Nadeema or Alia like present when Noah was born or? Yeah, yeah they were. They were, so Deema was, she had just turned three. Yep. And so she, and then I had a 16 month old and then I was giving birth. So it was all go at home and she was hanging around in her undies, eating icy poles up till like, you know, 12 midnight. Yeah. Pouring little things of water on my back and just having a huge party. My 16 month old had fallen asleep. And yeah, that's kind of they were sort of just around, around. Actually, I think my husband was in with her for a while putting her to sleep. Look, I can't even remember it was. So long ago, but yeah, they were around. They were definitely in the picture. Yeah. Um, so do you remember, um, the placenta with Noah? I do actually, that was the only one that I do really remember that one because I, I remember after I gave birth, I was in the bathtub for a little while, just like drinking up the cuteness of this like sweet little thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. First boy, I was absolutely obsessed from the first second. Yeah. And, and yeah, then it was, they, like after a while, I clamped a cup of cord, whatever, got out, and then stood over the toilet. And I remember it just plopped. right out into the bowl that they had underneath the toilet. But yeah, that's how that was that was cool. Like I, I always found birthing the placenta just a really cool thing, you know. Yeah, no fears at all around, you know, the, the what supposedly can happen and the, you know, this is your biggest time where you might have a hemorrhage and all of those kinds of things that so many women are, are kind of taught to fear. Yeah. And again, like I think that's another element where I was lucky because these midwives never meant that like, there were things that I was never told about, like skin to skin and like different tidbits of the amazingness of things I might like to consider to, to really enhance the basic physiology of the experience. But on the flip side also, there was zero fear mongering. Yeah. You know, I remember even my babies, I've always carried them in a, uh, posterior position. They've all, I don't know what it is in my, my pelvis, my body, whatever. They're always sort of that way leaning. Yeah. And I remember like having my belly palpated sort of right at the end. And she's like, yeah, you're posterior. I mean, she goes, look, like sometimes it can mean labor's a bit longer. You know, sometimes it can mean you got some stuff happening in your back, but like just as often you'll not even notice anything. Baby turns before it comes up. There was there was very relaxed language around everything. So, again, I was really, really lucky. Yeah. That's amazing. Actually, I'm just like, because that was like a touch to the hospital, because I think the. requirement for two midwives to attend the birth. I think that only came in like 2010 or something whether I think I don't quote me on that. Do you know? I don't actually know. What I do know I'm thinking it may and of course don't quote me I'm terrible with dates. It may have been before that because I definitely did have two midwives. Yeah. So I had my midwife who attended all three births and then I did have a backer as well who also came. So yeah, yeah. Yeah, cool. And so Noah's born at home. And then when was baby number four born? So baby number four, I got divorced when baby number three Noah was a year old. Yep. And then a few years later, so back in 2000, end of 2017, I got remarried to my current husband and fell pregnant fairly quickly. So I had my fourth baby in 2018. Yep. So with that journey, now it was, you know, some years on and also I'd moved areas as well. So I was not... within the catchment area of that initial hospital. And so I was actually living almost next door to my local hospital. Oh, wow. And so, yeah, yeah. And so because I had found my third birth almost traumatic in how... stressful and painful and how much I felt trapped in a body that was being tortured. Um, I had developed quite a fear of birth. Yeah, it's really weird. So it's so weird to reflect that it's like my first birth is what caused me to have a lot of fear of the pain of birth. Yeah, yeah. Um and so when I found out I was pregnant, I remember I took a pregnancy test. And the very first thought that entered my head as soon as I saw those two lines was, Oh crap, I put this back again. Oh no. Yeah. Oh, that must've been such a horrible feeling. It was really kind of sobering. You know, I just thought it was like reality kind of smacked me in the face. And so I thought, no, come on, you can do this and you're going to do this. So I just really went deep. as deep as I knew how to go at that time. So I mean now I do a whole different level of deep work with women but at that time for me what that work meant was okay I'm gonna learn everything I can about like releasing my fears and about um surrendering to the process and I started listening to all the different free birth podcasts and all the different uh Childbirth without like fear free childbirth podcasts and all of that. And I just went deep, deep into that. Yep. And I did a hypnobirthing course and listened to all those tracks to, I was basically, my mindset was I need to not be scared of birth anymore. Yep. So I really went all in on that. However, at the same time, I was I guess struggling with the choices that I was making around birth itself, the system that I was using. So I booked into the hospital and I thought to myself, my plan was I was listening to these free birth podcasts and so I knew that was a thing, but I was Way too scared to again bring that up with my husband And I was also still in the mindset of okay, but what if something bad happened to me? What if what if? Yeah and I also just thought look What I'm gonna do is I'm going to just see how I go With basically heading into the hospital when I'm about to push that was my plan of action and that is it you know, what I ended up doing. So, yeah, the I this when I entered that system of just standard hospital care, I was actually really shocked. It was like a huge smack in the face because I had been so it was so different from what I experienced with the birth center. And again, you know, I was very, very lucky with the way things went in the birth center. However, even though the birth center was in a hospital, you walk in the big building, you go up the lift and then you walk into a little birth center, but it was kind of like this sweet little cutoff nook from the rest of the hospital. And within it, you had all these beautiful pictures of these like, you know, oil paintings with big pregnant bellies and pictures of women breastfeeding and just huge wall of books and natural parenting magazine and bean bags and stuff. So it, for me at that time, felt like a whole different holistic, sweet little world. So then when I went into the antenatal clinic and I'd sit like literally almost in the emergency department kind of to wait for your appointment and you're waiting around for ages with all these other random sick people. And then you get called in different midwife every time explaining the same stuff every time to the different person. They hardly look at you. So that was really quite jarring. Yeah. It's, I can't believe, yeah, I think you've, like, given features of both models like so well, like it's, it's like, how does the hospital get away with providing such a low level of care? And so many women still choose this path. way when it could be so different. I mean, obviously accessibility come like plays a big part. Like for example, in Victoria, in the entire state of Victoria, there is only one hospital in Melbourne that does like publicly funded home births through the like the midwifery group practice. There's no actual like birth centers in Victoria anymore. The only way you can access publicly funded home birth is through one very specific hospital. And I mean, Melbourne, like Sydney is a very big place. And so if you're out of that catchment, um, too bad, how sad you'll have to just go to the hospital. Like if that's what, if you want to give birth in a hospital, that's where you'll be going and, um, yeah, such, such different experiences. Hey everyone, it's almost two months ago now since I recorded this episode with Claudia. And I just wanted to say now in January, 2024, there are three publicly funded Home Birth programs in Victoria and a fourth hopefully opening later this year. If you wanted to keep up to date, you can join the Home Birth Victoria group on Facebook. Well, yeah, to speak to that a little bit, I think that the reason women do just turn up is because... It's so many reasons. It's like we are so conditioned collectively to think that is just what is done. Yeah, I mean, all of our media, all of our, you know, as you know, everything is gearing us towards a fear of childbirth, an exaltation of the medical system. And yeah, so like it's no surprise that the status quo, unfortunately. But yeah, and as you said, without accessibility to other options that many more women would find really aligned with what they're seeking, it becomes a huge jump for women to say, okay, I don't want the hospital and I want a home there. without affordable access to having a midwife in my home, the only other option being to go it alone, it becomes a huge jump. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And so, yeah, I mean, it's growing though, it's growing. As more and more women decide to kind of work on reclaiming their autonomy more and more, making the shifts to, to just kind of stay home and let the physiological process unfold, which is really cool. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, what is baby number four's name? That's Youssef. Yep. Youssef is number four. And so, um, the birth, the birth experience in the hospital, what was that like? That one was really interesting because after having done all of that deep diving into, um, you know, physiological birth and releasing my fears and all of that, and really thinking that I had so much experience in, um, having a simple, straightforward birth, um, thinking that I really understood the system and what it tries to do to women and all of that. Um, it was really interesting to me that I was. still bullied by the system and they were still, even though I literally turned up as I was in transition and about to push, they were still able to meddle with my process. And so that was interesting to me that it's, even for women who go in there really savvy, it's amazing the different ways in which. It's like by hook or by crook, they will try to meddle. So I remember, I mean, I had, I gave birth to him at nearly 42 weeks. And by the time I was 39 weeks, they were really putting the pressure on to talk about induction, to, you know, do all of that stuff. Yeah, so that was really full on. I managed to dodge the induction by the skin of my teeth because I was so much of a people pleaser still at that time. I don't know what would have happened if I'd been pregnant another week. I really don't and I don't like to think of what I might have decided to do. But yeah, so when I turned up for that birth, I had, I mean, I jotted down in the chart my file throughout the whole thing, want to have a water birth. I turn up on the day and I remember a midwife in full on scrubs, operating theatre scrubs, coming in and saying to me, I don't do water birth, no. And so, I mean, it's just like it's kind of, it's that run of the mill dismissal of the woman's experience. Like it's, you know, I can see it now as no surprise. And of course it's not. nice when it's happening in the moment. But yeah, like, so it was just these different kinds of things. I remember being really strongly coerced to have a scan as soon as I got there, because the midwife who came in and palpated my belly, I mean, all of these things now I just see as the grossest interventions. And that's the thing that is just what the system does. I mean, the idea that a woman who's quite obviously about to give birth would have to lie on her back and have her belly palpated, it's just completely nonsensical to me. It disrupts that whole process. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, what's it going to tell you at that point? I'm about to give birth. Okay, cool. It's recording again now. Yeah, so we were talking about the... midwife was saying that you can't have the, she doesn't do water births and just how different that experience was to your other births. Yeah, yes, yeah. So I think just there was a stark contrast between the attitudes of the midwives that I was blessed to have in my first three births. Um, there was, there was no kind of uplifting of, of me as the birthing woman. Um, there was a lot of, kind of everything about it was quite fear mongery. So, you know, she palpated my belly after I got there, although I did not want that. Yeah. Um, but I said yes to it because this is, this is what happens. Um, and, and then she said, oh, The baby is not, it's really high. This baby is not engaged. And I was thinking to myself in my head, I don't care about that. Like I, I know I'm about to give birth. Yeah. Like whether the baby is engaged on up means zilch to me. Yeah. So it's, it's just, it's interesting that women, when they're birthing, they, you know, what's happening with their body. And so external influence is really. undermining of that and also almost like this often an attempt to instill doubt in the woman's mind so that the woman does look to the care provider for all of the answers. Yeah. So what happened then? Then, you know, because the baby wasn't engaged, they wanted to do a scan on Like I was, I was in full on labor. Um, and then from there, they said, all these babies are direct, um, posterior. And again, I was thinking, don't care because I know I'm about to give birth. So, so yeah, really interesting. Um, um, and sorry then, yeah, I can't believe that you're in labor. And then they're basically trying to say, you're not, you're not in labor enough or you're not in labor or your body's not doing its thing. And like, that's just, I guess that's mind blowing. I mean, I know it happens. I know it happens, but it's just mind blowing. Yeah, yeah, it is. And it's, but like you said, it happens. And this is just the way the system does its thing, you know? So, yeah, I just do feel like there's this very strong underlying sentiment of not wanting to leave a woman. thinking that her body is enough. Yeah. Because their whole system is hinged on the idea that her body isn't enough and her body does need them. So that you can see that in all of their language. And so having been having had midwives who were not like that previously, it was really quite stark. Yeah. But I mean, so then, you know, that birth I got in the bathtub. It was a good birth, that one. It was really good. And the thing that I, the thing that I loved about that birth was that I had a mission when I first became pregnant, which was to release my fears around giving birth again, because I had gone into that idea terrified. And by the time I went into labor, I, I had got rid of my fears. I wasn't scared at all. I welcomed it. I had a great experience. The interactions with the system weren't great, but my birth itself was really cool. I liked that birth. Yeah. Got in the water again. So that was my fourth water birth. Yeah. And Yeah, I mean, there was there were I don't want to go too much into it, but there was a lot more meddling of the system that put a really bad taste in my mouth. Um, but yeah. And so did that influence the model of care that you chose for your fifth baby? Uh, well, yes, it did. But I, I had already with baby number four not wanted to go to the hospital. Um, so the fact that then when I was pregnant with number five, the fact that I did just get a private midwife, um, yeah, it was, it was kind of always going to be that way, even if I'd had a good experience in the hospital, I think. Um, yeah, it just, I guess, solidified your decision that, oh, I'm like, I don't need to go to hospital, I can just, I should just be doing this at home. Yeah, I mean, after I'd had that home birth, I did not want to leave my home again to give birth. So when I was pregnant with my fifth, we didn't have, we really had, you know, money issues. And so there was just a conversation around, oh gosh, well, how are we going to make this home birth happen? And at that time, I, again, still hadn't done the work around what would it look like to just stay home and give birth just with my family. So we borrowed the money from my beautiful mum and we got a home birth midwife. And again at that time I really loved that experience and I really loved the support that she gave me. Now, after having had a six baby and if I had another baby, which hopefully it's not going to be happening, but that kind of support is not what I would choose now. But at the time, it served what I was seeking. But again, when I tell this story, add in the nuance that had my birth or my pregnancy progress down a different path, I do have to admit that I would have probably been transferred if any number of different things had happened. And so that's just that one piece that I like to share with women, is that to have those conversations, if you know that you'd like a home birth and you know that you would like a midwife to support you, Um, having, laying it all out on the table with your midwife is really crucial because so many women do think they are getting something. And then, and I mean, I know women personally, and I'm sure you do, and we all do know women personally who have hired a midwife, um, thinking that they're having something and not having had those conversations of if your baby's breach, you, you have to, you know, I can't support you at home. And if such and such happens, I can't put your home. If this happens in your labor, we will have to transfer in. So it's, and there's nothing wrong with women choosing that. If that's, if they'd like that kind of support and they would like to transfer in if A, B or C happen, but it's just about, you know, being really honest about that. So, I mean, in my experience, I was really blessed that those conversations didn't turn out to have been necessary. My birth and my pregnancy just, you know, trucked along. Completely uneventful. Yeah, I mean, there was one thing actually that in hindsight, I can say did not align with what I wanted. And that was, I did express to my midwife that I did not want to have any scans in that pregnancy. But I was told by her that she would not be able to support me if I didn't have at least one short. morphology scan because of just the guidelines really. And so this is where it does get complicated. Like just the question of how much can a midwife as well-intending and loving and supportive as they truly want to be, how much can they truly stand with women? unequivocally if they also do have to take care of maintaining your license. And that's just the unfortunate dynamic that is at play. So in that situation, yeah, I was, I chose to forfeit what I wanted to be able to keep her support. So yeah, that's kind of how that played out. But then... I think that's like a very important thing to, um, touch on as well as like these questions because that's what's caught me out both times, home birth, both private midwives. Um, I've, yeah, I guess I am still working on people policing and, um, you know, coming back, um, we came back from overseas at the start of this year and we didn't have enough, like a lot of money. We had to borrow money, similar situation to, you know, be able to. pay for the midwife to have this home birth. And I was kind of just like, oh, I'm so lucky that I even get a private midwife. Like I don't want to complain. I don't want to be too fussy because I'm so lucky that I've been able to have this model of care that I wanted. And you know, I didn't ask. I didn't even like, I guess, reflect on what had you know, happened in my first home birth that I would like to be different for this home birth. I was just like, oh, I'm so lucky. And I didn't ask those questions. So when things came up, then it was, I was like, yeah, I was like, well, why is this happening? Like I've, I thought that this is what I was getting. And actually it's a little bit different to what I expected. And it was very stressful because when you've paid thousands and thousands of dollars. to have this experience, you're kind of, you know, and there's not like there's another private midwife next door that I can just be like, Oh, sorry, like that doesn't suit I'm going to like jump ship. Like it's just that's just not how it is. Like once you've got a midwife, it's very difficult to change. In some situations, I'm sure there's women out there that decide to, you know, say good buy I guess to the midwife and choose to free birth instead because that's what aligns better but also because there's not very many other accessibility options. Yeah, yes, yeah. Accessibility can definitely factor into the way women do make those decisions. Yeah. And I think, yeah, it is, it's, it's a hugely stressful thing. And it's something that is almost kind of not really talked about. We talk so much about having a private midwife as being just this unicorn gold standard of care. When for some women, for many women even, it can be, but it's very much dependent on how the end of your pregnancy and how your birth goes. So that's the piece that I think needs to just be openly disclosed by midwives in conversations with the women they're working with so that women can then make those decisions from a real place of understanding, okay, am I happy to make this investment and go down this path knowing that if ABC or D happens, I'm going to be advised to go to the hospital. So yeah, I mean, it's not about right or wrong. It's about really just understanding the kind of care that we are engaging with. So, yeah, like, yeah, it's full on. But I mean, for me, again, I was really lucky. I was really lucky. So pregnancy just continued on really uneventfully. I'd say the thing that stood out about that pregnancy was, and again, this is kind of down to me not putting myself first. I was not nourishing myself at all. I was actually completely depleted. And so that's played into my journey of birth in a huge way. So, I mean, yeah, I can get into his birth story now quickly if you'd like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so. how pregnant was I, I was nearly 41 weeks pregnant. And I was really excited to meet him and all of that labor started and, and it started with my waters just bursting and breaking open. That was the first time that had ever happened to me. Like the huge kind of theatrical like gushing of water. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's only in hindsight that I realized that that is quite associated with a lack of nutrients, some nutrient deficiency or depletion in a weakness in the amniotic sac. Yeah. And yeah, and that's completely what was my issue. I'm definitely not saying that that's across the board, but you know, it's thought to be in many cases. And so... I because of that, labor started really hard and fast. There was no cushioning. His head was right there. I was in a bad mood from the get go. It was kind of like a train, just like a train. The locomotive just pummeling through me and called the midwife, called my mom. Um, and. Yeah, I mean, what to say about it really. I just kind of labored and then I made my way downstairs. It was really, really full on. It was kind of like hard and fast labor. It was like three hours. And got downstairs, got into the tub, like the birth pool. And... And yeah, I mean, I was in there for a little while, hanging on for dear life. Like it was kind of, it was really raw and messy. I had this image in my mind of how I'd be when I'd be birthing. Like I had a dress picked out and I had, you know, like how am I gonna do my hair and all of that stuff. Yeah, yeah. And I ended up just wearing my, sorry about that noise. No, no, that's fine. I ended up just... wear my husband's track pants and like an eye mask and his dressing gown and I you know it was just it was messy it was really messy and I was in the tub pushed for a few minutes and yeah and then he He came out. Um, yeah, yeah. That's the thing, you know, birth, actual birth is kind of just so almost ordinary, isn't it? So yeah, it's hard to, to give a, um, a really detailed recount of it because yeah, I mean, I, I did get care, like I have torn all of my babies. Uh, after my first one. Yeah. And I do believe that's just because my tissue had always been had a lasting weakness in my perineum and that's just always what's happened since that first like bowling ball shot out on my second birth. But yeah, I mean, again, like there was no issue with that. I didn't get stitched up. I chose to have that just... close up naturally. But what happened after I gave birth to him was this is where it all kind of took a turn and ended up being really difficult. So after I gave birth, that was all cool. And then I started to feel my legs cramp up. And when I say my legs cramp up, everything from the hips down, like so my hips, my glutes. my quads, hamstrings and my calves. Everything was cramped. Wow. Cramped so painfully that I couldn't, I was in agony because I was not able to get my cramps stretched out because if people, if I was having one muscle stretched, it would contract the other one, you know? It was just agonizing and- Yes. And I ended up fainting. And it was just pure depletion. I was just so depleted. Yeah, yeah. And so what ended up happening was I ended up basically having to lie down in the place where I had given birth. I ended up lying down there for the first 48 hours after I gave birth because I just couldn't, couldn't move. I was so weak. Um, and my, our bed was upstairs. And so my husband having a bad back, there was no way he was going to be able to like, carry me upstairs. I just lay there on a on a mattress downstairs for like the first 24 48 hours without moving. Wow. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I even got a catheter put in. Oh my gosh. So that I did not have to get up to go to the toilet. Wow. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, again, like, that's, that's purely just me not prioritizing myself. That's all that was. But it taught me a huge lesson in, you know, your body is so wise, your body is so strong, but it needs fuel, it needs support to be able to do its job. It can't run on empty. And then, and then I really took that Yeah. Um, and so your sixth birth, you, I guess it's kind of, um, like full circle, I guess, because you chose to have a free birth with your sixth baby. Yeah. I, I had like a DIY experience is kind of how I, um, like to think of it. Okay. I, yeah, I basically. I don't know. I think I think I just realized it just made the most logical sense. I knew I knew there was no way I was going to go to the hospital. Um, we still living like right next to the hospital. No, no. So we'd moved twice since then. Uh, so we were, we were kind of, yeah, close-ish to a couple of hospitals. But I just knew I was not going to engage with that system. And so I just started to think about the way I wanted to make a home birth happen. I didn't want a midwife because I just kind of felt like I didn't really need it. I didn't feel called to that. We also did not have the money and even if we had I felt like wow, that's a lot of money to For me personally, that's how I felt And so yeah, look I just going through all of the different Ways I could make decisions. That's what I arrived at. Okay, I'm just gonna plot along and I'm going to just birth this baby I, but the one thing I took really seriously was my nutrition. Literally from the moment I didn't actually get a pregnancy test, but from the moment I did realize I was pregnant, which it's so funny because I realized I was, I had conceived a week before I even missed my period. I realized I could feel my womb doing stuff. Um, And it's so funny, I remember hearing on a podcast once that a woman saying she could feel when she had conceived because she felt her womb twitching. And I just thought, gosh, like what do you mean? I, you know, of course, believing that story from that woman but just thinking, gosh, how, how could, you know, how could that sense be that strong? And I honestly felt the same thing. So about a week before I had missed my period, I felt no room twitching and then started to ache over the next day and I thought, oh, that's weird because that never happens a week before my period. So I kind of thought, oh, that I probably can see. And lo and behold, period never turned up. So I was like, there we go. And so from that moment, the reason I mentioned that part of the story is because it was at that initial point that I realized. I can really listen to and trust my body here. So all of the information that I'm going to need is I will feel it in my body because my body is literally giving me these little signs of what it's doing and what's going on. And so that really started the process of really tuning in. And so then I embarked on a journey to absolutely build up my reserves of nutrients. And I took that so seriously. And that was basically my prenatal care. I just, I just absolutely nourished myself. Yep. Yeah. Well, I, after, after that experience, like, you know, having to be basically bedridden for up to 48 hours, like fainting and yeah, that's very full on. That's not a, um, like pleasant way to start, you know, your post you know, the first couple of days like bonding with baby and like having to also keep up with the demands of like a fresh baby like you don't want to end up being bedridden. Like that's yeah. Yeah, definitely those first couple of hours of his birth, all I did remember was agony. I had no focus on him whatsoever. So yeah, like I definitely did not want to sabotage myself like that again. And knowing that I was not going to engage with the system, that was part of my way of taking full responsibility for my experience. So yeah, I kind of just plodded along. And it was a great pregnancy. I absolutely loved it. It was really nice to... just live, you know, and, and yeah, it was kind of as good as I assumed it would be when you're just able to just be pregnant without it being anything that needs special attention. Yep. Without making it a drama fit for television. Exactly. Yeah. Like, oh, you must attend this appointment. Now you're going to need to do this test. Yeah, yeah, it was just really cool to have all the information that was happening about my baby growing and all of that was purely what I was feeling in my body, you know, and so I remember feeling the first little twinges of the baby kicking, you know, when I was about, I don't know, probably quite early on, maybe 13 or so weeks. And, and thinking, wow, I've never got a pregnancy test, my period just didn't come. And now for the first time, I'm actually feeling feedback that there's a little human in there. And so it just completely changed the, just the sense of, of the experience of pregnancy, instead of like a journey outward where I'm getting that feedback of, Hey, there's a human in there because I've had a scan and I saw the little fetus on the screen. It was just, it was just, oh, there is a human literally just, you can feel it kicking and It's just cool. It was really cool. Yeah. I'd never actually thought about that, you know, like the distrust or the disconnect in your body starts when you probably before. But like the first, I guess, physical thing is when you take pregnancy tests, because whether you take that pregnancy test or not, if you're pregnant, you're going to find out. Exactly. Yes. Like, you know, you might like. Often you take a pregnancy test when you think you're already like pregnant when something has changed shifted and so you You take the prep you do the pregnancy test for reassurance that your body is, you know, actually pregnant But like that's also yeah promoting the sense of like you need this test to prove something Like I've never thought about that. That's really interesting Yeah, it is really interesting because it's like it's planting the seeds initially from that very, very first instance that the feelings that you're feeling in your body, you can't necessarily trust and you need external validation to tell you yes or no. So, and it also, it kind of lends itself to our desire to kind of control and know everything that's happening to our bodies and with the process. So. being able to sit in the unknown of I might be, I might not be, let's see, and let's tune in. Yeah. Is it, it puts, it sets a whole different atmosphere for pregnancy. Yeah. And so how did that shape your, your sixth birth experience? Um, well, yeah, I just, I really loved it. I really, really treasure it. Um, so I had a. dear friend who I spoke to about coming to the birth to help me out because of the fact that I had so many kind of little kids and even big kids. So many people and so much going on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That I didn't know what kind of support I might need. I didn't know. And actually, when I told my... First story, I'll get to a huge element of the distraction of having a water pump. Yeah. Basically, I spoke to a friend and she really graciously, she just lives a few minutes away. She agreed to be there to support me. And I spoke to my husband about it. His only concern was, will you be okay? Because he'd seen me faint and be bedridden for two days with the last birth. So he was worried about my wellbeing. That was his only concern about having an independent birth. And so I kind of just reassured him, look, I'm doing A, B and C. So that happened because I was not nourishing myself and all of that. And so I said to him, are you, like, do you have any other worries? And he said, no, I'm just worried about you. Like what else can happen? So I actually left it at that because I didn't say, well, potentially these are the things that people are scared of. Um, I just let him be in that space of our births just totally normal. Yeah. So, um, that was cool. Um, the, yeah. So the interesting thing about that pregnancy was that this was the first pregnancy where I had actually had some anomalies, some things that might make a woman a bit nervous or want to get that external. reassurance or... uh... Yeah, or if they were engaging with a care provider that might have, you know, raised red flags. Yeah. So I could tell that my baby was really small, like small for me, for what I'm used to. I was pretty darn sure of that. And I also had quite low fluid. And I knew that because whenever I'd have the, you know, the prep. contractions, you know, the Braxton Hicks contractions. Yeah. It was, my belly would almost kind of shrink down to the shape of the baby. Oh wow. So I could tell it's not much fluid. And so knowing that, it was really interesting that because I'd just been listening to my body the whole time, I felt really, really comfortable that everything was okay. Um, so yeah, I, and, and the other thing is I, he was kind of lying in a transverse position throughout the pregnancy as well, which was really odd. So I kind of felt like there was something a little bit, you know, odd going on in there, maybe like, maybe there was some, there was a reason for this to be happening. But at the same time, whenever I'd check in with myself, do I want to get external reassurance? Or do I feel like everything's okay? Am I happy to just sit in the mystery of this? And I was, so I just did. I had a lot of, to just go into the birth story now, I had a lot of prodromal labor with him. It was probably a good, I don't know, it was a good two weeks of contractions starting and building up and becoming, building up some regularity and then petering out to nothing. Yep. Just what you want when you have five other kids to worry about. I know, yeah. Yeah. Yes. And I remember losing, just on 40 weeks, I think, losing my mucus plug in full, which was cool, because that's never happened to me before, but I was like, wow, you know, when you're at the end, all of the kind of, the unfolding of it, you're so ripe and ready that it's all really fascinating and exciting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was cool. But then it wasn't another, you know, as we know it can be, it was like another good week or so before anything happened. But yeah, I started having And then it was building up. It was getting to the point where it was about 9 PM and I was supposed to be putting my fifth baby down to sleep. Um, and I was having contractions where I couldn't even sort of lie down still to put him to sleep. So I was having to kind of really start moaning and vocalizing through them. And that's when, so we thought, okay, darn it. My. my baby's not gonna be asleep. And then we called my mom and that felt really good in the moment as well. I really felt like I wanted her to come. And so called her, she came along by about 10. And I... The interesting thing was going back to his positioning. I was having a lot of, I was having sort of nerve pain at the bottom of my womb and groin area. Like there was, there was something off about the way he was positioned. So I, yeah, I was feeling a lot of nerve pain, like sort of around my cervix and stuff, like quite a lot of irritation and a lot of pressure in my bladder. Okay. And so it was really strange that, but, but the reason I mentioned that is because the, the cool thing was, um, and this is what I, I want women to, to be able to realize within themselves is that there's, if you can really tap into your instincts and let them guide the process, then I don't think that you fear when there's no need to fear. Yeah. So even though I could tell consciously, Hey, there's something weird about this. There was zero fear. I did have this real sense of, no, my body's just giving birth. And that's a blessing to be able to come to that place internally, because then things can just unfold. So I'm really, really grateful that. that this choosing this kind of journey really helped me to arrive at that place, you know, because it really did transform my experience. So yeah, a lot, a lot of pressure, you know, needing to go to the toilet, like every couple of contractions because like, but I was needing to do wheeze. That was the interesting thing. There was no back pressure at all. And so it was about midnight and we'd called my friend to come over. Um, and I will say that even making a call it's, it can, like I struggled with that to make a call and kind of way up in my head, do I want her to come? Yeah. Don't I, do I want her to come in a little bit or is it now, you know? Yeah. What snaps you out of that primal space? Yes, yes, yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I did I did notice that. But but the thing that I was saying before about the water birth is that my friend's support was amazing. Everyone else in the house was tied up trying to get the birth pool sorted. So. I had known from the, when I first became pregnant, I don't know how I knew I was not going to have a water birth with this baby. Wow. Okay. Yeah. I just kind of intuitively knew, although I'd always said I cannot birth on land, it must be in water, but I just knew somehow this birth won't be in water. But still my support people were like, but let's just, we'll just get it ready in case. So you've got the option. And something in me. felt like, oh, that just seems like a big bother. But I let that happen because I thought, look, who am I to know? It might be good. But as it turns out, I was not interested in the water at all. And my mom and my two big girls were just setting up this birth pool and we couldn't get the hose to work, so they were bailing water in and it was crazy. So yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was about 12. 30am, 12.40am, I was just kneeling in front of my couch on the floor. Yeah. Um, all the pressure in my bladder, not enjoying it. I remember getting to the point in labor where I was like, oh, this is just, it's just not fun. Yeah. Um, and, and then I started to push. And the funny thing was, and there was no pressure in my back passage. So when I started to push, it was like I had all that intense pressure that you normally feel in your back passage, but it was on my bladder. So I knew that something was weird. And then he came out not facing my backside. He came out with his head, his face was facing my inner thigh. So he came out sort of sideways. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, which was just interesting. I mean, I, I haven't sort of. Haven't even tried to unpack what and how and why, but it was just an interesting thing that I noted and it like just lined up with all of the stuff that I was feeling internally. Yeah. Um, but the thing is birth just works, you know, without, without. the external fear mongering of all position is this position is that or it might be like this or that his head just came out you know and yeah so i pushed him out head was out and my gosh the relief and then his body just plopped right out onto the living room floor so you know it's funny you set up the chucks pad and you set up like a nice like blankie so he's got a soft ball He, he missed all of that and he plopped right out onto the lino. Oh my gosh. Yeah. All of that. Um, and, and the interesting thing with that was there was almost no fluid and I had not lost any fluid in my, you know, in the early stages, nothing, but there was almost no fluid that came out. There was just a tiny little. Um, which was really interesting because I know, I, I know, um, intimately how much fluid I normally have, which is, you know, the big, huge, you know, massive gosh, and there was just a tiny little thing. And so I guess, you know, what I want to share about that is we're taught that normal and safe is within these parameters. And if you go outside of that, it definitely. risk of this and a risk of that and blah and needs all of this extra measurement and testing. But really the scope of what actually is physiologically normal and healthy I think is so much broader than what we're taught from the system. Yeah absolutely I'm pretty sure I've read briefly something about fluid levels from maybe Rachel Reid. I'll link it in the description if I can find it. But yeah, especially in those later stages of pregnancy, you know, like it's normal for the fluid to change because your body is preparing to give birth and birth just works if you let it do its thing. And I guess. Yeah, it's been so amazing to listen to all of your stories, Claudia, because, um, you know, even though there were some similarities with some of them, like in my mind, they were all quite different. And I think it's so super cool that you've had, you've not just stuck to one model, you've, you've truly experienced, um, almost everything. Um, but like also. the positive experiences that you've had, you've managed to experience them in all of these different settings and with all of these different environments and stresses and support people and like that's you have such valuable experiences and oh my gosh, the women that get to work with you are so lucky. It's so cool what you've been able to share. Yeah. So many cool things. Yeah. Oh, thank you. No, it's been, it's, it's been so nice to be able to talk through them all. And, you know, it's like the reflective. It's so often in hindsight, reflecting back on these things that we can really derive all of those lessons, which I've been blessed to be able to do for my own journeys and, and what I love now to do with women, of course. But yeah, yeah. Like I have experienced a lot of different ways of doing it. And I have been really, really lucky that I've, I've overall had really positive births. Um, so yeah, yeah. There were definitely my last one. I'd say my sixth birth was one that's like, it was my most positive experience. And just to finish up the last little, to tie it all in a neat bow. after all of the nourishment and really putting that at the top in terms of priority. After I gave birth, I looked around to the people that were there and I said, oh my gosh, I feel so strong. I feel like I haven't even given birth. Oh my gosh, that's brilliant. I can just like picture. that moment. Like, oh, yeah, like with theme music and like that is the end of our television show. And you've just like, yeah, it's this really empowering, amazing birth. Yeah, that's incredible. Yeah, it really was. It's just testament to what real support looks like. And, you know, what real pre natal care really is and And I felt really good about myself that I had been able to put that first. And my gosh, the difference. And yeah, it was just, I transitioned from birth into postpartum, like awake, alive, strong, robust. It was just amazing, you know? So good. That's incredible. Thank you so much for sharing all of those stories. Thank you so much. for having me on to share LCO, I really appreciate it.