Finally, in episode 16, I - the host of Birthing at Home: A Podcast, get to share my 2 homebirth stories. From my first baby in 2020 who was 4.55kg and my second in 2023 who was 4.61kg. I'm excited to share my stories, especially to help inspire 1st time mums & mums with 'big' babies. Thanks to my midwife friend Hannah, from @thesacredbubble on the Sunshine Coast for taking the time to chat with me.
Links to people/business/resources for this episode:
CHAPTERS
00:00
Introduction and Acknowledgements
01:00
Sharing Home Birth Stories
03:18
Reflections on Midwifery Education
05:12
Discovering Home Birth
07:38
Choosing Nursing over Midwifery
08:37
Considering Home Birth
09:59
Navigating the Maternity System
10:43
Family History of Home Birth
11:38
Overcoming Self-Doubt
12:33
First Home Birth Experience
19:08
Challenges and Frustrations with the System
20:30
Negative Experience with Glucose Tolerance Test
22:14
Birth of Murphy
29:53
Mixed Feelings about First Birth
36:20
Empowering Experience with Frankie's Birth
47:03
Pregnancy in the Netherlands
50:35
Financial Challenges and Support
53:32
Friend's Generous Loan
54:01
Challenges with Medical Professionals
58:11
Uncomfortable Pregnancy
01:00:03
Dealing with Infection Risk
01:02:01
Concerns about Midwives
01:03:29
Preparing for Birth
01:05:48
Labor Begins
01:08:35
Labor Progresses
01:12:15
Transition and Pushing
01:17:31
Birth of Frankie
01:18:26
Placenta Birth
01:19:51
Post-Birth Moments
01:21:16
Euphoric Experience
01:22:10
Healing Journey
01:23:09
Sharing Birth Stories
Finally, in episode 16, I - the host of Birthing at Home: A Podcast, get to share my 2 homebirth stories. From my first baby in 2020 who was 4.55kg and my second in 2023 who was 4.61kg. I'm excited to share my stories, especially to help inspire 1st time mums & mums with 'big' babies. Thanks to my midwife friend Hannah, from @thesacredbubble on the Sunshine Coast for taking the time to chat with me.
Links to people/business/resources for this episode:
CHAPTERS
00:00
Introduction and Acknowledgements
01:00
Sharing Home Birth Stories
03:18
Reflections on Midwifery Education
05:12
Discovering Home Birth
07:38
Choosing Nursing over Midwifery
08:37
Considering Home Birth
09:59
Navigating the Maternity System
10:43
Family History of Home Birth
11:38
Overcoming Self-Doubt
12:33
First Home Birth Experience
19:08
Challenges and Frustrations with the System
20:30
Negative Experience with Glucose Tolerance Test
22:14
Birth of Murphy
29:53
Mixed Feelings about First Birth
36:20
Empowering Experience with Frankie's Birth
47:03
Pregnancy in the Netherlands
50:35
Financial Challenges and Support
53:32
Friend's Generous Loan
54:01
Challenges with Medical Professionals
58:11
Uncomfortable Pregnancy
01:00:03
Dealing with Infection Risk
01:02:01
Concerns about Midwives
01:03:29
Preparing for Birth
01:05:48
Labor Begins
01:08:35
Labor Progresses
01:12:15
Transition and Pushing
01:17:31
Birth of Frankie
01:18:26
Placenta Birth
01:19:51
Post-Birth Moments
01:21:16
Euphoric Experience
01:22:10
Healing Journey
01:23:09
Sharing Birth Stories
Hi, welcome to Birthing at Home, a podcast. I'm Elsie, your host. I'm a home birth mom of two little boys. I'm a mental health nurse, a home birth advocate broadly, but also more specifically in the state of Victoria, and I'm an ex-student midwife. Before we begin, I would like to acknowledge the Wurundjeri people who are the traditional custodians of the land I'm recording on in Melbourne, Australia. I would also like to acknowledge the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples that have been birthing at home. own country for tens of thousands of years prior to the British invasion and acknowledged that sovereignty has never been ceded. Finally, after three and a half years, I get to share my home birth stories in episode 16 of the podcast. I'm so grateful for my midwife friend, Hannah, who I studied with, was able to chat with me in April, 2020. I had my first baby, Murphy at home, who was 4.55 kilos by the way, which is 10 pounds. And in June this year in 2023, I had his little 4.61 kilo brother, Frankie, at home after his waters broke on his guest date and I didn't start labor for almost two days. I have been approved to share a video form of the lead up to Frankie's birth and his birth. So be sure to check that out on Instagram if you'd like. This will be the last episode for 2023, but I'm very excited to see what 2024 has in store for Birthing at Home, a podcast. And I'm so grateful for all of the support that I've already received in the past three months. Enjoy this episode and I'll be talking to you all very, very soon. Hi everyone, it's Elsie here. I'm so excited because tonight I'm sharing my two home birth stories and my friend from uni. um, and midwife friend Hannah, uh, on the sunshine, or are you on the Sunshine Coast now, Hannah? I am on the Sunshine Coast. That's correct. Yeah. Hannah is going to chat with me. So hopefully the conversation flows a little better. Woohoo. I'm so excited to be here, um, to have this conversation with you and help you share your stories. Yeah. I was just, um, saying to Hannah that back in 2020, when I had my first son Murphy. I reached out to another podcast to try and share my story because first time moms having home births isn't very common and I wasn't able to share it. And so basically I've been sitting on these stories for three and a half years because Murphy's now three and a half years old. And I had my second home birth in June this year as well in 2023. So, um, I'm not sure how much you know of my story, Hannah. Um, obviously we're friends and we've followed each other's lives for the past however many years. Oh, it's a while now. Quite a while. Like we started, yeah, we started uni in 2020, 2014. It's nine years, isn't it? Yeah, it'd be nine years. Holy moly. Oh my gosh. That's crazy. Makes me feel old. Um, and Hannah has a lovely little girl called Lani as well. Um, so she understands mom life and midwifery life and the amazing maternity system we have in Australia. Um, heavy sarcasm, if you couldn't detect that. Um, anyway, I guess like, um, reflecting on our time back at uni, Hannah, That's the first time I ever learnt about home birth. When I finished high school, I thought I'll rock up to uni, I'll go deliver babies. I sucked at biology in school, I didn't like biology, I didn't wanna be a nurse, I wanted to be a midwife. And I can't actually remember the first time I actually learnt about home birth. But I've said it before, like we had some amazing teachers, Hedda and I. I reckon it would have been in Rachel Reed's class, hey? Probably Rachel Reed. Absolutely legend. Legend. But I, yeah, I had, like we had a lot of other amazing tutors as well that were really heavily involved in home birth advocacy and Yeah, I guess I became kind of fascinated with the maternity system. And in the episode that I did with Amy, who was also one of our cohort, Hannah and I, and I just came to learn how. I guess how different I mean, before university, before midwifery, I honestly, had no idea about birth. I was super freshly 18. Like no one, I'd never had the sex talk. I'd obviously been in relationships and stuff, but it was all through my own experiments, I guess. Like I'd never, that had never... discussed with me, we definitely didn't learn about pregnant, like, I guess, how to not be pregnant, but never about birth or anything. So like, you know, rocking up to university and learning about all of these amazing things, it really opened my world. But then, you know, at USC, where we went, we weren't allowed to follow women that were home birthing. So I guess it, to me, became this kind of secret. So almost like a secret society in a way, wasn't it? Yeah. Like. We had all these tutors that were in the space, but we couldn't learn about it in terms of the practical experience. Yeah, like you'd learn about it in like the research that you were reading and assessments and you know, always comparing how amazing the Netherlands is and how the rate of home birth in the Netherlands is so high. But I only was exposed to hospital births. And I am pretty sure I saw like every amount of intervention there was. And I only saw probably like 15 births. Yeah. And so only within those 15 births, I saw all of this. And I, you know, would, I'd be on a high, cause I mean like the birth of a baby is obviously incredible. But... It just like something just didn't line up and eventually I burnt myself out for feeling so passionate about it. And which is so easy to do. Yeah. Especially as a student. It's, it's such a juggling act. You did well. Well, I got to the end of my third year. Um, and then yeah, I was like, what am I going to do with my life? Um, and I was told I would be more employable if I did nursing. Um, so I. chose to drop the midwifery and stuck with the nursing. And here we are six or so years later, and I'm a mental health nurse. I work in various different settings, but usually in forensics. Currently, I just got a maternity leave. So I am doing a bit of time in the youth crisis team here in the... north western suburbs of Melbourne. Um, yeah, I feel like that's quite a journey in itself. I guess, um, you know, I. Yeah. You've done a lot to get to where you are for sure. Do you feel as though there was like a point in that journey or even prior to falling pregnant that you had an inkling that you might birth outside the system because of what you'd seen? I think I wanted to, and I guess, you know, a lot of the great resources that are available today, they weren't like published, you know, when we were at uni. Like I remember one of the women that I did the follow through with, she gifted me Ina May Gaskin's guide to childbirth. And I remember her giving it to me and being like, this is a weird gift because I'm not pregnant. I'm a student. Because there's, Iname has like another like spiritual midwifery. Yeah, which is another good book. Another good book. But I was just like so, like so, so kind and generous. But I just remember being like, when am I gonna read this? Like, I'm not having a baby right now. And I kept that book. And I did not read it until I was pregnant with Murphy. And I think, you know, I knew that I wanted continuity of care and I knew that I wanted a private midwife. That's how much I knew. In Victoria, I didn't know how it kind of like differed. So, you know, I... was a bit out of my depth because I'd studied in Queensland. I knew a lot about the maternity system back then in Queensland, but not so much in Victoria. So I remember going to a like midwifery group clinic thing here in Melbourne and sitting down with the midwife and she was like, Oh, well, do you want to have a home birth? And I actually was a bit like, Like, oh my gosh, I can have this experience now. You know, the thing that I've learned about for years, that can be my experience, too. But it was also a bit like. like taking ownership of your decision. Because I think we've all been, you know, victims of the birth culture in Australia. And so even though I had learned all of these things, I still had, I guess this fear that like, what if I can't do it? You know? I so understand that. Yeah. Like I had to work really hard to get out of my own head for Lani's birth. Like even right to the point where I was like, yeah, about to push her out. I was so like switching between the midwife brain who's only ever worked in the system and the brain that was my mum brain that I like was trying to get to trust the process. So I still understand that it's challenging. Yeah. Um, this is like a random side note, but Hannah, were you born at home? I wasn't actually. So I was a stubborn little bubba who, um, my mum was in like a, I suppose the MGP of our day being born. Yeah. Um, mama driven an hour and a half, I think to that hospital that offered that services, um, that service, but I was two and a half weeks overdue and end up in a Caesar. My mum then went on to have two home births, which the more I unpack with her were probably actually two free births because she had birth workers. She had the likes of Jenny Blythe there, which is amazing. And yeah, so no, but I, my upbringing was all very like home birth, alternative, that kind of stuff. So. Yeah. For me, it wasn't my first exposure like you when I went to uni. So, yeah, yeah. I, um, I remember, yeah, I remembered something. I was like, Hannah, something about Hannah and Oprah. Yeah, yeah. I was the stubborn first born, but the fact that mum then, yeah, backed it up, I suppose, and went from having a caesarean and back in that day, it was like once a caesarean, always a caesarean kind of mentality. So she was very much, um, stuck it to the system, I suppose. She even actually engaged with a bit of hospital care for my brother, but signed a DMA and then went and had him at my uncle's house a few hours later. Amazing. She's pretty badass. Yeah. I just remembered that another way that Homeworth was kind of exposed to me was through my now husband. And I'm not sure at what point I learnt this, but my husband is Dutch. And he was born at home. So I guess home birth was probably always in my future somehow. Um, which I think is amazing. Cause I know talking with a lot of women, um, a lot of the time, the biggest turtle is the partner, like the women are so committed in it, but they, their partners are in fear of home birth for whatever reason, and therefore they decide not to do it. So. I remember thinking as well when you were talking to Amy about how her partner was pretty on board for it. And I was like, oh, all these people, like, it's such a, like, it's awesome to have supportive partners that are almost more on board with it. Yeah, well, in my situation, yeah, I remember going home or whatever from that initial appointment with the midwife and, you know, saying to Koon, oh, well, like, should we have a home birth you know, should I go to hospital? And my husband was kind of like, is that even an actual question, Elsie, because I'm pretty sure we're having a home birth. Um, and like, yeah, like how many, how many men slash partners are there out there in Australia that are, you know, like even more passionate about their, you know, um, female partner having a home birth. Like. Yeah, I feel very lucky for that. I guess I also went in with the knowledge that, um, I didn't want the glucose tolerance test, um, and you know, back in the end of 2019, pre COVID, um, I don't actually remember like there being any issues, like I had normal scans and. Um, you know, I was excited. It was like my first pregnancy. So I was like, well, this is how pregnancy goes. Like, you know, you get the things I, I don't think free birth had ever occurred to me. I remember one of my follow through women had, um, what she called an accidental home birth. And now like, when I reflect on that, I'm like, I'm pretty sure she was always going to be free birth. Yeah. And I remember like getting the message and being like so disappointed that I missed like her birth but like now that I You know, I've heard all these free birth stories and obviously I've had home births I can totally imagine that that's what she may have been doing on purpose But I'm like I hadn't heard of wild pregnancy Um, so I guess, you know, even though I had learned all of these amazing things and had all of these experiences, there was still plenty of things that I did not know and had not heard of. Um, and so when it came to the, the glucose tolerance test, I thought I could say no. Everybody says you can decline and well, everybody in, from my experience had. Um, you know, said, Oh, you can decline the GTT. And, um, I had a wonderful, uh, primary midwife, but. You know, before we, um, started, um, this recording, I had, I was, you know, reflecting on the fact that because home birth midwives compared to any other is such a small proportion. And because it's so heavily monitored. Yeah. It almost felt like a bit of a target on your back sometimes. Yeah. It means that like, it's such a hard system for midwives to work in for their full scope of practice and to, I guess it's sometimes. provide that really, really true 100% woman-centered care because what ended up happening was that I had no risk factors apart from it being my first pregnancy. Was that I was told that if I wanted a home birth, I had to have the glucose tolerance test. And so, I was like, what the fuck? Everybody told me that I could say no. Yeah, exactly. What do you mean? Out of interest, do you know whether or not that would have changed? Like would they have been more accepting of your, um, your ability to decline the test if you were going to be birthing in the hospital? That's a great question. I actually have no idea. Cause I want, I'd be intrigued to see whether or not they would have been more willing to like partnering with women's decision, like for decision making. if you were birthing in the hospital. Cause I think realistically, from my perspective, I would think about their fear potentially is that a big baby gets stuck at home and what if. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, interesting. That's very sad though. Yeah, and all of this was happening. So, Murphy was born at the end-ish of April. And what you get the GTT like 28, 30 weeks or something. Yeah, 26 to 28. So I think like all of this was happening just as COVID was spreading word. And so there was already so much like unknown about, well, what the heck is coronavirus? And that people were saying. Yeah, people were saying like, oh, the borders are going to close. And I was like, what rubbish? Like, that's just like the media, like fear mongering. Like that's never going to happen. Yeah. I saw that. Yeah. And so to have this extra thing, and I remember, um, one of like the head midwives called me and. It was really, I can't, you know, it was over three and a half years ago. Now I can't actually remember it, but I remember how it felt. And I felt like really invalidated. I was like, I will sign whatever you want me to sign to say that this is a hundred percent my decision. I do not want the GTT. Anyway, I ended up having the stupid, stupid GTT. And, um, I remember I was so pissed off about, you know, having to go sit in that stupid chair and I actually think I remember like talking to you at the time that happened. Probably. I was so mad. I was mad for you. And I remember where I got it done, there was only like one hour parking or something. And I remember asking the nurse, like if I could go move my car, because I didn't want a parking fine. There was literally no other parking in the area. And... She was so frazzled and I was like, well, I'm going to go move my car because if I don't, I'm going to get a parking ticket. She's like, Oh, but like, if you move. And I was like, what? They're so, they're so pedantic about it. Hey, I remember they even got funny about me going up and going to the toilet. And I was like, Oh my Lord, you've got a pregnant woman. Like walk around the corner to the toilets at the back of your block. Yeah. Um, that was, yeah, that, yeah. Sorry, that was so intense. Yeah. And I hate needles. I've always been a very well person. I've never been in hospital before apart from as a student. Yeah, I've always been a healthy, well person. So, you know, obviously I've had like my blood tests before and stuff, but to have to... do that like three times in a row and then drink that drink and then also just fundamentally disagree with the entire thing. It was so crap. So imagine my surprise when the test results come back and they're all messed up because the comment at the bottom, I'm sure I have like the pathology report somewhere still, the comment at the bottom was like, this is not a pregnant woman's, this is not even like... This doesn't make sense. Like these results don't make sense. And as the, I don't know, head pathologist or whoever that's escalated to, I think it should be retested because this is not, these test results don't make sense. That's not how a normal human body would respond with gestational diabetes or just without it. And I was like, and then they asked me to do it again. I was like, I am not doing it again. Were they just slow or were they just all over the place? It was just, it was just messy. I'm yeah, I, I wonder if I have it. I think I have it digitally somewhere. Sorry, side note, me just, my midwife brain being like. Yeah, yeah. I'll see if I can find it, I'll send it to you. But they asked me to do it again. And I was like, I am not doing it again. And I guess because I had already agreed, yeah, I don't know. They fought me less on that. I had to finger prick myself for a week or whatever. And I was working in a, um, a busy mental health hospital here in Melbourne and, um, obviously being pregnant and a nurse like on the ward, like who the hell has time to prick their fingers? And yet when there was chocolate in the nurse's station, I was eating that chocolate. Oh, 100%. And then I'd be like, oh shit, I've got to like check my stupid blood sugars. Um, yeah, it was just like such a drama that did not need to be a drama. Um, it was, I think like with Murphy, that was pretty much my only hiccup. Like I think everything else was fine. I did. Um, hypnobirthing with my husband, like a weekend course. Um, and that was amazing. Like I obviously already knew so much, but like, it was so helpful for Koon. And yeah, I found the same with Damien. We did one too with, uh, ex colleague. Um, and I knew a lot about it, but for him, it was really good because like, he didn't want to be listening to me necessarily waffle on about it all or slash wouldn't take it in. So yeah, yeah. Yeah. So it gave them that bit of, bit of independence, I suppose, in their education. Yeah. Um, and like in, in that hypnobirthing, and I remember we did one antinatal class as well, um, we were the only home birthers. There was no other home birther. So I guess, you know, to be, um, relatively. young, I guess in the, you know, generally people are giving birth, more women give birth in their late 20s, early mid 30s or whatever these days. But at the time I was only like mid early 20s. So to be the only couple in and the youngest couple in the room home birthing, it was also quite isolating. Like I had actually never I only realized this not long ago, but like, I didn't know anybody that had, not knowingly, um, that had home birth before. So I, um, I was looking before we chatted to see like my history in the home birth Australia group. Um, and that's, that's what my community was like this group on Facebook because I didn't know anybody else. Like, even though I had a private midwife and I. went to a couple of social things or whatever, like we were the only home birthers. Even in the private practice? And then COVID just made that worse. Pardon? Even in the private practice of like amongst your wives? In the group that I went to, yes. And I remember postnatally, because of COVID, like there was no mothers groups or anything like that. they connected us with other moms that had babies around the same time. And I'm pretty sure like one or two of the moms that were in that group were meant to have home births. Um, but like for whatever reason, didn't end up having home births. Yeah. Wow. But it just like, they just wasn't, yeah, I just didn't have the community that I have. Um. Definitely now, especially with the podcast, obviously, and there are heaps of people that have had home births now. Do you feel as though that made, or not made, impacted your thoughts, feelings, et cetera, leading up to birth? Not having like a physical community around you to like, I don't know, share stories or just know that they were there? Yeah, I think it probably affected me more postnatally. I think like antennally and labor, I felt like, you know, from everything that I've done, I was nervous, obviously, because. Yeah, like it's like, yeah, it's labor and birth. Like I was excited, but I was nervous, especially first time around. I had also, you know, asked my mom to, like, if she wanted to come and, you know, watch her first grandchild be born and I like with home, but that's something you can do, you can invite whoever you want into your birthday. You can have the whole village there if you want. You could have the whole village. Um, and unfortunately, like, like I guess most women, I guess. Um, mom, just like, yeah, like I was in induction. My brother was in induction. like she just, I think home birth was too big of a step for her. And it ended up being that she said that she didn't want to be there. So I think I, after that kind of experience, I probably like just focused on myself more and I just focused on what I did have. And especially when COVID like started impacting things, I was like, well, It's, you know, I was meant to actually have a student midwife there. Um, so I had a student like come to some of the antenatal and stuff, but because of COVID, um, she went back to Tasmania before the, before she basically wouldn't have been able to get back home. Um, so one less support person. Yeah. Big impacts for you. Yeah. Um, and yeah, the birth with Murphy. Like it's hard to think about now because I didn't realize that I had some, um, things that I didn't really like about my birth experience with Murphy until I had Frankie, you know, four months ago. Um, like the birth with Murphy was like, I was so excited. I was also in such denial. It was happening. I was 41 plus five. Also with COVID, like I wasn't going to be allowed a home birth past 42 weeks. So I was like, Oh my God, what am I going to do? Um, was that just purely in COVID times that they didn't let you go beyond that point? Yeah, I'm not sure what it is. Um, now, but then yeah, it was 42 and you would have to go to hospital. Yeah. Wow. That would have played so heavily on my mind. Yeah. Because like, what am I going to do? Yeah, yeah. You'd like, get yourself up. What can I do? I did accept, like a stretch and sweep at like 41 maybe. But she, the midwife said that my cervix was so closed that like, she couldn't do anything. So I accepted it, but she didn't actually, she wasn't able to do it. I... declined, I don't think I declined, but I said to my midwife, like, you can talk about induction, I am not being induced, you are not inducing me. If you need to tick the box to say that you've had the spiel, go for it. But like, I'm not having an induction. So I really was grateful that she acknowledged, or rather respected that. But yeah, it was so stressful. But when I did go into labor, it was just like, this kind of like back pain with Murphy and in the late afternoon. And then I remember messaging the midwife and being like, oh, this might be it, might not. And she said, okay, well, I'll have my dinner and I'll go to bed and we'll see what happens. And then, yeah, like at three o'clock or something in the morning, I, as many of us do, was like vomiting while sitting on the toilet and all of the really delightful things. All the glory. The glory. Had you been awake this whole time? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd been like, yeah. So I think like the back ache kind of thing started at like six-ish, but I probably had that my first proper contraction maybe, or like what you could call a contraction, probably around eight or so. And I remember telling myself, well, you're only allowed the tens machine at midnight. If this is still happening at midnight, then you're allowed the tens machine. Like bargaining with yourself. Yeah. But I was in such denial that it was happening because I knew that I wouldn't give birth on my estimated date. I knew I was more likely to go over as a first time mum. But. Yeah, like that was just, it's a cruel, cruel game. Those, um, estimated dates. So I agree. Like I, I was like, Oh, I'm going to go. I had so psyched myself up that I was going to be like 42 weeks and ready to sign whatever I needed to sign to keep going that kind of thing. And same kind of thing. I was like, no, no denial. My waters broke at 38 and six. And I had. No, sorry. 38 and five. And I had Lani at 38 and six. And I was like, so shocked that it happened. Cause I was like, I'm a first time mom. I can be 42 weeks. What happened? Like you came before you like what? Yeah. Um, because my midwife had actually predicted that, which is as you know, someone that we went to school with, she was like, no, you're not going to go over to you and I was like, no. the first time I'm on my wheel." She's like, nah, you won't, you're too active. And so many people had actually said that to me. So it was funny to see that it happened. So anyway, sorry, side detail. Yeah, no, no. That's funny because like, I finished work at probably like 37, 38 weeks. And I feel like somebody like one of like the midwives or somebody that I said was like, oh, maybe it dragged out because I had been so active because I'd been working so much. Oh, the complete flip. How? Yeah, the complete opposite. Yeah. But yeah, I don't even remember how I spent those last weeks. Like I remember laying in bed with Quinn on the weekend before Murphy was born. And I remember set like actually speaking, saying, this is the last weekend. No matter what happens, this is the last weekend that it will just be you and me. And. Such a weird feeling. It is. Hey, I remember going to bed after, cause my waters broke first. Yeah. Um, and I remember going to bed that night and saying to my partner, this is the last time it's just you and I, like this baby's, this baby's, I had like period cramps happening by that stage. So I knew that labor was coming, but, um, yeah, I was like, it's so weird that like that's your last night and you know it. Like, Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Last weekend or yeah. Yeah. You can almost feel like chapter two being written on the page. Like, yes, that's such a good way to say it. Yeah. Um, and yeah. And then Murphy, um, I think it was pretty uneventful. It was just like, he ended up being a pretty big baby and like first time mama just took. a while. I think I was like pushing for like two hours. Like you had to work hard. I had to work hard. I was freaking exhausted. Yeah. Um, he ended up being born at quarter 11 or so the next morning. Um, and Like the last, like whatever it was, I still don't know. I mean, I'm the birthing woman. I have no fricking idea whether it was a fatty dystocia, a body dystocia, a shoulder dystocia. I've heard it called all three things. He was just a big baby. He was 4.55 kilos, which I think is smack on 10 pounds. Um, yeah, he was just a chunky guy. I had a very, very small second degree tear probably because he was sitting there for almost two hours. Um, it could have been worse, but, um, he, for whatever reason, he needed a little bit of extra help to be born. And. I think that's where it all went wrong, to be honest. That really, really scared me. I had also heard the second midwife come in and say something about an ambulance. And I remember then going into like student midwife brain and being like, well, if they're talking about ambulance, does that mean that like, it's not gonna happen for me. Like I'm gonna have to go into hospital. Like what's wrong? Like I feel like I've been pushing it for a while. I know I've been pushing for a while. Like what's happening. And like now that I, you know, I've had the two experiences. My, my primary midwife was fantastic. I have no complaints. Um, she is still a good friend. Um, but I feel like working in the system because, you know, you have to play the game as like a private midwife. And if you want to, you know, be treated with respect, I guess, in hospitals, um, sometimes that means you have to work, like do some hours in the hospital. Like that's how. you know, you get your admitting rights or whatever, however they get it. And you know, that was kind of sold to me as like, oh, well, the midwives in our place also do shifts in the hospital. So they're really well trained with emergency procedures. And at the time I was like, oh yeah, that makes a lot of sense. But now like being able to reflect on, you know, that, he needed this help or whatever he needed or didn't need it. It did happen. Um, where, you know, she did whatever maneuver to get him out and then he wasn't breathing. And now it's only recently that I've learned about like this, um, phenomenon of like transition, like, yeah, I don't know. Yeah. I'm giving them time. minus the, um, dystocia kind of thing, but like a second midwife, not giving Lani time to transition. And I totally, um, empathize with you from the perspective of, I felt like I robbed Lani because she was like clamp cut taken over to the resource. Yeah. Um, and like, as they all tend to do. screamed on her way over. But like, she's a quiet baby. Like in terms of like, she just observes and she was fine. And like, yeah, it's hard. And as I, sorry, I'm going to go back to your comment about the second midwife saying about the ambulance. That would have been so hard to hear as the woman pushing in that transitional, not transitional, in that state of being so close to meeting your baby, hearing someone go. Oh, do we need an ambulance? Like your brain would have flicked into like fight or flight and like adrenaline and all that kind of stuff. And that just. Yeah. And like, I just, I can see it all playing out now. You know, the fact that she said that probably took me longer to push. Yeah. Needed help to push because suddenly like the. the hormones and whatever that are meant to be doing this thing, you know, aren't doing it so well anymore because like now fear has come into the picture. Yeah. And that bit of self doubt too. The self doubt. Yeah. Like, what are they not telling me? Like what's happening? And then yeah, Murphy was like placed on my chest. It was like just on the floor. I had a birth pool, but it was determined that like the birth pool was kind of like slowing me down a bit. or something. Um, and, and yeah, so super ironically, I gave birth on my, on my back. Um, which is so funny because like you hear so much about like birth only back in hospital. Well, I gave birth on my back at home. Um, and like, yeah, so Murphy was like placed on my chest and I have the video. So I, I know exactly what happened. And like, I'm like rubbing and I'm like not stressed. I'm like, oh, I've seen babies be born. I know that they need time. I was rubbing him. I was like, come on, Murphy. And then the second midwives come in and like clamped the cord. He's not breathing. He's not crying at this point. Yeah, but he is still attached to the cord, but she clamps it, goes and gets the... the resus stuff brings it over and by the time she's unwrapped all of the stuff and put it on his face, he's breathing. But like the cord, my problem has always been the cord was never cut. If you're going to clamp it, cut it as fucking well. But anyway, this podcast is about empowerment. That was very frustrating to me. Um, I've been pushing that though too, like that's still valid and you know, still part of your journey. Um, yeah, as frustrating as it is. Yeah. I, um, you know, because I'd been pushing and because of everything, like now that I can see it all play out, you know, I can see that I was probably never going to give birth to that presenter by myself. Um, I had just been scared, frightened, made to feel that like, you know, my baby almost was dead, essentially. That's how it felt. Like I was- You're in a state of vulnerability and fear, which is not conducive with a physiological birth of a placenta. No, no. So I had the Sinto. I really, really hate needles. So, you know, whatever, I had the Sinto. Anyway, my breastfeeding journey was okay. It was hard at the start. I've- think for some many or most women it's hard at the start, but I sort of attribute it also to that birth, that end birth experience because Murphy couldn't actually turn his head one way for ages. We had to go to lots of osteo appointments to loosen up the muscles or whatever in his neck. And so we had some breastfeeding trouble in the beginning. Like, otherwise, I honestly, I was on a high. I was like, I've had my home birth. Like I am amazing. This is amazing. You know, despite all of that stuff that I didn't want, amazing, but it wasn't until I've had this experience with Frankie in June that I'm like, whoa, I definitely have preferred the experience with Frankie. Admittedly, I probably went into Frankie's like birth. less prepared, I guess, you know, I was like, Oh, I've done hypnobirthing before, so I don't need to do it again. I've read all the books, so I don't really need to read them again. I was like, I've given birth, why would I need to like, you know, re-educate myself? Yeah, yeah. So but like, from the perspective, or my perspective, yeah, you may not have felt like you've done all the preparation, but your preparation has come from your previous birth and you lived. your lived experiences and that journey and the prep that you did for Murphy. Like it's not that you came in underprepared. It's just, you didn't have to do a lot of work to feel prepared. Yeah, I guess. Um, like looking back though, I'm like, was I even doing the horse's breath? Like, how was I breathing? So maybe I should have like touched up on like the breathing skills required because I was like, I'm pretty sure I like. I mean, Mother Nature is like such a trickster because the way that I remember Murphy's birth, I remember those last moments, it being like the most excruciating pain I could ever have thought in my entire life. But obviously because, you know, other people were involved, like it was physically happening to me, like my body wasn't doing it. Um, and like with Frankie, um, I think that like, in some ways I was a little bit less controlled. And I think maybe if I had of, you know, touched up on some of those skills, maybe I, because I've walked away from Frankie's Beth being like, that was the most empowering experience that I could ever have in my entire life. life. However, it really hurts. And I wish so bad. I, I'm pretty sure I'm done at this stage, like two children is me. I'm going to get involved with birth somehow else, but I don't want to do it again. I want to challenge yourself to a five kilo baby. No, yeah. Cause Frankie was even bigger. think that, um, yeah, like if I had been a bit more, yeah, I, I don't know. It's hard to say like it's all hindsight, right? But we also had started like, as an interesting fact is that, um, 2022 was absolutely crap for us. And so we moved to the Netherlands, which is, um, you know, when you see those memes and it's like, Oh, um, having a bad day, just book a trip to Europe. Like that's now looking back, that's very much how it felt. It didn't work out. So I started off my maternity care with Frankie in the Netherlands. And so I started seeing a midwife in the Netherlands. It's all paid for, but you in the Netherlands, which is something that no one. talks about, I think, is that in the Netherlands, you do have to pay for private health. Like everybody has private health insurance. It's you're not allowed to essentially be in the country, but like even as a citizen, you must have private health insurance. And so ultimately it's the private health insurance that like pays for all of the services. Yeah. It's just like that's included. I remember when you told me that and I was like. Whoa. Yeah, no one talks about that. Misconception. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, it's free. Um, yeah, like depending on what your concept of free is. Yeah. I'm paying for it somehow. Um, and I guess, yeah, in some ways that's like Medicare as well, but Home Birth isn't free here. So Medicare is definitely not paying for it. Um, but. Yeah, it was such a different experience because like I saw the midwife, but you know, she spoke English, but not very good English really. Um, and so I, um, would bring Quinn along to the appointments, but, you know, this was up until 20 weeks. So we were in the Netherlands until 20 weeks, the scans were all covered. Um, like they test for different things in the Netherlands as well. So they were like, Oh, like. you've not had this immunization. I was like, yeah, but we don't immunize against that in Australia. And it was just like such a weird experience as well because home birth is so normalized. I feel like it had lost some of the magic of it just felt like our home birth is normal. Like it's you're not special. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're not doing anything fabulous. You're not doing yeah, it's like, yeah, like, it's their standard care. Yeah, Sally Smith over here has also had a home birth. Like, who cares? It's just normal birth, which is how it should be. But I feel like I also come from a more spiritual perspective as well. And I want it to be magic. Yeah. Like, I feel like everyone, especially now having had the experience with Frankie, I want, yeah, I want that magic for other people because that is magic. Yeah, it is magic. Like it's a magical thing. Yeah. And so it's just strange. I felt I it was strange to, you know, be sitting there with the midwife in the Netherlands and then thinking about like all those times that I'd sat in the. Tudor room on the Sunshine Coast, learning about how amazing the midwifery care was in the Netherlands. And here I was being like, actually, I think I want to go home and just have my private midwife. How interesting. Yeah, so strange, but a fun little add to my story. Yeah. Little like plot twist. Yeah, plot twist. Um, so we decided we were going to come back to Melbourne and I was like, Oh my God, I'm, um, probably like 13 or 14 weeks. I was like, how am I going to find, how am I going to find a private midwife? Like I'm already like, you know, 13 or 14 weeks or so along. Um, and anyway, I reached out to, um, somebody, I decided to not go with the, well, my midwife doesn't work there anymore, but I decided to go with a different business, I guess. And so we zoomed, you know, with a nine hour time difference or whatever. And then when we came back to Melbourne, I went and met my midwife. And my pregnancy with Frankie was kind of pressured because we came back. We had no money. I was like, how am I even going to afford? Like, we have no money, like absolutely no money, no savings, no one's. supporting us, no one's helping us, it's literally just the two of us and Murphy. We have to both work full time, I was doing overtime, I was doing extra, like work for a university. It's like even if we save every single penny, we are not going to be able to afford this home. I do not know how this is going to work. But you would not catch me Like, I mean, like you would probably not catch me dead in a hospital. Yeah. Like, absolutely respect. You're getting it. Yeah. Absolutely respect that. Like, there are certain situations that, you know, where the hospital is appropriate. But I was like, there is no way I'm going to hospital. I am having this baby at home. And I asked a family member if they might lend us. um, a little bit of the money just to help us out a little bit. Um, and they declined and I was telling this story to a friend and the friend said, what if I loan you all the money? Oh my God, Hannah, I will. Friends you need in your corner. I will. Like, I feel like that was like such a gift. Like I. Yeah. I never, I never, ever, ever told her that story expecting that someone was going to loan us $6,000. Yeah. Like, cause that's how much it costs. Like just for the birth, just for the birth, $6,000. Um, and you know, if she didn't, I like, we would have had to look at bank loans, like where there's a will, there's a way. Um, but like having a friend just loan us the money. took so much pressure off. I still did work up until 38 weeks. I was so freaking pregnant. The one little issue I had was actually a scan. I declined the GTT without any issue this time, despite having had a big baby and despite some weird writing about testosterone. Yeah, I was gonna say, despite technically actually probably having more red flags. Yeah. So I was grateful not to have to fight for that. I couldn't actually believe it. I just said, I don't want to. And it was never really brought up again. Amazing. I was like, that is what I wanted. Like, thank you. Why couldn't they get this the first time? Yeah. But yeah, so I went for a scan because likely tell, I'm pretty sure all women at 20 weeks. I, so this was in the Netherlands. Um, I had a low lying placenta. Surprise, surprise. I'm 20 fricking weeks pregnant. No shit, Sherlock. Um, I actually was talking recently, um, with some other private midwives where a lot of the time, um, sonographers are making comments on ultrasound reports, saying the placenta is low lying, but the measurement doesn't actually match up with like guidelines. So that's an interesting point that's happening. So anyway, so I know. So annoying. I got the same with Murphy as well. So when I was told in the Netherlands, low lying, I was like, whatever. It's not going. Give me another 20 weeks and it won't be. And because of this, I accepted going. to have a scan to check the placenta. And my midwife had written on the request for like only checking the placenta location, but nothing else. We just want to know that it's moved away from the OSS or whatever it's called. Yeah. And when I rocked up, I just thought it was a non-issue. I was like, it's going to take like 10 minutes, like whatever. So I just rocked up to work a bit late. Like that was my plan. I didn't bring Koon because I was like, it's going to be like a non-issue. Like it's like, they'll just quickly be like, you know, no, it was like such a drama. She was like, Oh, we, I can't do that. Like I can't do that. And I was like, what? And, and then she was like, well, I have to call the doctor and like check that we're allowed to do it. And I'm like, but I'm saying you're allowed to do it. Like, what do you mean? Yeah. And also it's not a doctor. that did the request. It's my mom. Yeah, yeah, you're not the person that did the request. And she basically, without speaking the actual words, she basically told me that it was irresponsible. And how would I know if my baby wasn't dead, essentially? I remember when your post popped up about that on the homebrew group. And I was like, Oh, like, and she made, so this was when I was like 30 something weeks pregnant, 36, 35, something like that, maybe. And she, she was, if I go into the room and she's like, Oh, it's an internal one. And I was like, Oh, and she's like, is that okay? And I was like, well, if that's the only way that you're going to get the, the result, then like, I, I guess. And she's like, well, if you want to know the measurements, this is the only way. And I was like, okay. Like no respect for sexual assault history, no respect just like as a person. She didn't help me on the bed, she didn't help me off the bed. I was so freaking pregnant. I was by myself. It was a horrible, horrible experience. But also just like general mannerisms. Yeah. And I left that appointment and I just like cried all the way to work and then just have to like go to work and like pretend, you know, that everything's okay. That shit showed just gonna happen? Yeah. I haven't just had something shoved up my vagina and then treated like shit. Yeah. Told that I'm irresponsible for not getting my baby measured and they could be dead and oh fuck. Yeah. So 38 weeks rolled around. I was like keen to finish up and everybody was like, oh, second baby, it'll like happen quicker or happen sooner, like something, you know? And I didn't have any signs of labor. I was just so uncomfortable. Sleeping was uncomfortable, like everything. I was like, I hate being pregnant. And then on 40 weeks, like at 4 a.m. in the morning, I went to the bathroom and when I came back, I felt that my waters broke. And now I know confidently that it was my waters, but at the time I was like, what the heck? Because with Murphy, my waters didn't break until I was well in established labor. And... It's such a weird feeling when they break. I mean, I don't have anything compared to... like to compare to now, but I was so like, was that my waters? Was it not? Like I was laying down at the time too. So it was just this weird feeling. And then I was like, did I just pay myself or is that my water? Yeah. Well, I actually heard, I feel like I heard a pop. Um, and I have heard other women describe it like that as well. Like whether there is an actual like noise, I, I don't know, but Um, so that was at 40, 40 weeks at 4 a.m. on four at 40 weeks. And so I was like, oh my gosh, I'm like, I might be one of the 5% that gives birth or their due date. Um, anyway, um, that's just not what happened. Um, I just was like leaking fluid for like two days or whatever. Um, Then I had to prepare myself for all of the talk about infection risk. And I was, you know, after 72 hours or something, um, they were, I was told that they would recommend that I go to hospital, like that would have to recommend that I go to hospital to be checked. And I was like, man, I don't want to do that. How am I going to have to like against medical advice that? And then they were like, Oh, that may be prepare like something that you can write on your against medical advice. And so then I'm like researching. you know, Rachel reads, um, post on prolonged rupture of membranes or whatever, um, about, you know, when you go into labor after your waters have broken. Which is not conducive with getting in a mental state to go into labor. No, I was like, are you freaking kidding me that I'm having to do this? I felt so annoyed. Um, I was also quite annoyed because you know, the I have so much respect and I'm so grateful for all of the amazing midwives that sign up and say, I will support home birth. But it also means that they're under a lot of pressure as well like we already talked about. And a lot of midwives, in my understanding, actually do leave private practice because it's a bit too much. And... this kind of situation, I guess, in Melbourne or this business meant that their second midwives were coming from like a pool of midwives. So I most likely would not know or never have met the second midwife. And because I'd had this experience with Murphy and the second midwife, I was then like, oh my God, it's gonna happen again. Yeah, naturally like worried about. Got anyone with me? Yeah. And so in the couple of weeks leading up to Frankie's birth, I had been like, look, can I have pictures? Can I have names of the midwives in this pool? And that felt like it was a big thing. And to their credit, they did organize, and they sent through it. But it was so stressful and so anxiety-provoking that it popped. Possibly also that my primary midwife wouldn't be able to be there because of like days off and things like that. And like I didn't know the other primary midwife. And anyway, it ended up being- Express that a pregnant lady doesn't need this. Yeah. And I just like if home birth was supported better, I think a lot of these issues would be solved because midwives wouldn't feel the pressure so much and they would be able to practice. you know, there would be more, there would be more midwives, private midwives, so they wouldn't have, um, you know, such stressful work conditions, I guess, you know, it would make it more inviting to be a home birth midwife. But anyway, um, big mentality shift needs to happen. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So that was like on Monday, early Monday morning that my had Frankie on Wednesday evening. And it was on, so early Monday morning, my ward is break on Tuesday, Tuesday evening. The midwife that possibly would be my private, my primary midwife that I'd never met before her and my student midwife, I had an amazing student midwife throughout all of this who listened. to all of my anxieties and all of my concerns and was absolutely amazing. And I say it with bias, but I would also always recommend a student midwife. Like you can always say, no, sorry, you can't come to the birth, but like, what if you got to lose? Because like having Chantelle at throughout my pregnancy and my birth was amazing. It was- the continuity of care that I really needed because I felt I hadn't had the chance to, coming into this experience at 20 weeks, I'd already missed lots of antenatal appointments, that ability to build that rapport with my midwife. But with a student midwife, you get more opportunity because they're more available, they're more keen to text and check in and go for a coffee and- They're so eager. Yeah, so eager. I also- an amazing student midwife with me. Yeah. Um, and so I really, and you know, um, Chantelle and I friends now, like she was the first person on this podcast and, um, like, yeah, anyway, so her and the other midwife, um, that was probably going to be my primary midwife, they rocked up and nothing was happening. They checked. They did like a Doppler and my blood I woke up and felt my first contraction. And that's, yeah, where the birth of Frankie, I guess, begins. I just felt like it was all intense, to be so honest. I, like I said, I wish I could say that it didn't hurt and that I was so connected and I was so, but. like it hurt like for, I feel like from, you know, they say go back to sleep and whatever. And I tried to go back to sleep. I couldn't, um, every contraction. Hurt. Yeah. I had my tense machine. If you look at it from the perspective of like, you know, you look back on your pregnancy and how choppy and changey and like your care and learn the stresses put on you in terms of potentially not having your primary midwife and who your second midwife was gonna be and all of that, like that builds up your mental state as well. So I mean, that'll probably contribute to it. Yeah, though it was like a couple of days before, especially with like this whole infection thing and, Yeah. Look, I was confident. I was like, I will sign whatever I am. I'm happy to, like, I'm, I'm reading these stories that women are going to label like five days or so after. And it's like, I'm, I'm happy to wait. If, if my baby is okay and I'm okay, then I trust that everything's okay. And I don't need to, you know, go and be induced or whatever, whatever. Um, anyway, I feel like it hurt. all the time. Yeah. I woke up like, cool, and at five or six o'clock because I was pretty bored in between contractions. Like the contractions were intense, but I was able to get through with them with my tens machine and just by myself. But yeah, I guess I was just like, you know, you can't I might've had music on, but like, you know, in the middle of the night, there's only so she can do I feel. And I was like cold as well, because it was like winter. And yeah, my friend came and picked up Murphy at like seven o'clock, because ironically as well, like Murphy's law. Haha. Murphy doesn't go to daycare on Wednesdays. So this was like, apart from the weekend, this was like. the only day that we didn't have someone to care for, like, you know, he otherwise would have been in daycare. And I had- Typical. I would have liked him to be there, but I think it turned out for the best that, you know, he ended up arriving like five minutes after Frankie was actually born that evening. But I spent most of the day upstairs in- my bedroom because it was too light downstairs and I was so, you know, I was only 40 plus two or 40 plus three. And so in my mind, I was like, Oh my God, if this labor stops, um, what's going to happen then? Cause like my waters have already broken. Like if my labor stops, like what, what then? Um, and so I was like, this labor must go on. It must continue. We must forge on. And so I was so adamant that, you know, dark, like make it the temperature I want, leave me alone. Don't talk to me, don't touch me. I spent so, like I'm looking at it now, I have marks on the door from where I had a, like a bar stool chair. And every time there was a contraction, I would slam. I don't think I have any video footage of this, but I've heard other people explain it to me as well, my student midwife included, but I would like slam the chair against the wall every time I had a contraction. And I've like got all these marks on the wall. But, yeah, so most of the time upstairs, and then in the afternoon, that midwife that I'd met the night before, I had really connected with. even in that one hour visit. She came and helped Koon with the pool, like set up the pool and everything. And I spent a lot of time in the pool, but I'd also requested, because with Murphy's birth, I had spent a lot of time, super randomly squatting over a mop bucket. And so this time I was like, I. don't want to squat over a mop bucket, surely there's a birth stool somewhere. And so I managed to convince, my student midwife actually had seen in the corner of one of the appointment rooms, like a birth stool being used to like stack things on. And- What? Eager eyes. I love to hear. Yeah. And so I had requested if I could use the birth stool. And so I was very kindly allowed. to use the birth stool, borrow the birth stool. And so I used the birth stool for a bit and went into the pool and I spent time in the shower but I didn't really like the shower. And yeah, lots and lots of position changing. I think like something that maybe, if you've never had a... the labor, a labor before or a vaginal birth or whatever. I don't think I understand how many positions you have to like go into. It's like an actual workout. Like you're doing, you're squatting, you're stretching, you got your leg here, your leg there, you're on this side, on that side. Like you're doing all of the things. And then you get to like two days after birth and you're like, oh, why are my legs so sore? Yeah. Probably because you've just done like a hundred squats. Yes, it's probably the mop bucket squatting. Probably the mop bucket, yeah. Not just any squatting, but like deep squatting. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, I said I did spend a lot of time in the pool. I think on the birth stool, I started to feel, you know, at some point I started to feel like. Is this slight even going anywhere? Like, what am I? I think that fear started to creep in. Like, what if I can't do this? What if I, what if, you know, I've been doing this all day? I'm so exhausted. I've been awake since, you know, midnight. Like, what if I just can't do this? And I had said no VEs, no vaginal examinations, which was amazing. But I did my own VE. And when I did it, I could feel his head. And I remember saying like, oh my God, I can feel his head. Like during like the break between the contraction, I was like, I can feel his head. And that was the motivation I needed. I was like, oh my God, he's almost here. And I think- Did your brain then just go, oh, I must just be in transition. No, so- Because I had that moment. What? What I kept thinking was the ring of fire. When does the ring of fire happen? Because I remember that for Murphy. And I said, when is it? And my brain, yeah, I guess I was like that was in transition because I just I couldn't think clearly. I couldn't I couldn't think about my anatomy and where the ring of fire might be. And I was like, is that your cervix opening? I was like, no, that doesn't make sense that the ring of fire is your cervix opening. And. Like I just, I remember thinking so many times, well, when is the ring of fire happening? When does that happen? Especially after I'd felt the head, I was like, so when is it happening? Like there's a head in like my vagina and like, what is happening here? Um, and so, you know, once I said that I could feel the head, they said, Oh, do you want to hop back in the pool? And again, like I had not been focused on a, on a, um, like a water bath. I just wanted my baby. I didn't care if it was a land, but same with Murphy didn't care if it was land or water. I just, I just wanted to have my baby. You know, I think like, I was taught that the birth pool was a tool. Um, and you can either use it or not use it. I never saw it as like an environment that, you know, you would or would not, I get, give birth in. Um, And I think you go one way or the other with that as well. Yeah. Either someone, cause I was like hell or high water, 12 weeks pregnant. I'm having a water bath and I had a water bath cause I was like, nah, that's what I'm doing. Yeah. Um, I'm so glad that I'm so glad that they told me to get back in though, because I, um, yeah, I did have a water bath with Frankie and, um, I remember like again, transition brain or whatever brain I remember like leaning over the edge of the pool and being like, man, an epidural would be nice. And I also remember, I also remember thinking if I do this again, I'm having a C-section. And I don't think you'll find many moms at home birth say that, but like in my- They're probably thinking it though, or potentially, I should say probably. In my brain, I was just like, oh my God, this is the most painful thing. And I guess that's the work that I needed to do with this pregnancy. I needed to reconceptualize what pain was because I had forgotten because like with Murphy, I remember having Murphy and I remember being like, oh, it wasn't so painful. It was just extremely intense. But with Frankie, I... I associate it with pain. I'm like, that was painful. I'm not saying it was bad because now I can reflect and being like, you know, I would never have changed anything. That was an incredibly healing birth for me. You know, Frankie, you know, his head came down and I could feel him, it's called restitute, like turn. And I have this video where I'm like, Um, is that you touching me like to the midwife and she's like, no. And like, you can see she's not touching me. And I was like, what the hell is that feeling? Because with Murphy, I, you know, I was on the floor. It happened so slow, but also so quick. And like with the, with the water, it was just so slow and just calm. And then like the contractions, it feels like you're pushing against a brick wall. It feels like. Yeah, like it feels like you're pushing so hard, at least for me. And I could not feel anything moving. And then suddenly he was just out. Yeah. Like, you know, the midwife, I guess, like pushed him, um, like between my legs. And I like pull, I have this fear of like pulling him up and, um, yeah, in the video, I'm just saying like, I did it. Like I did it. Um. And it was, yeah, like that was magic. I will, I'm so glad I have footage of that. It's actually funny because in one of the footages before his whole body was born, you can hear me asking, is somebody recording this? Um, and you can see- I was lucky that my student midwife just stepped in and did it. I didn't ask anyone, but we had talked about it. Yeah. Same thing. The videos are just so cool to look back on to. Yeah. We, once you miss it, you miss it. Like you can always still read it, but once you miss it, it's done. You'll never ever get that back. And I have like three different angles of this birth. Oh, yeah. But yeah. And, you know, the placenta, you know, Frankie was born. And then they're like, Oh, you got a birth, the placenta. And I was like, Oh, of course. And so. You know, the lights were kept off. Um, it was just like so much oxytocin and just, it was just the most joyful. Like it was like being on drugs. Like, I imagine that that's so euphoric, so euphoric. And I guess that's what I owe to birthing liposenta. And again, I have like photo proof of, and video proof of this happening. Um, like five minutes later, the placenta like came out, like I birthed the placenta. Um, like five minutes and I, yeah. And I had like gone in being like, um, you know, this might take, like, I'm happy to wait up to an hour. Um, but yeah, five minutes and. Then we went onto the couch and Murphy came home when I was still in the pool and he was like, so like a deer in headlights. He was like, what is happening? What is going on? Yeah. And especially cause you know, we'd blown up the pool like earlier and he wanted to get in it. And we're like, no, you can't play in the pool. We're not filling it up with water yet. And yeah, we laid on the couch and we cut the cord. And. Um, yeah, he was 4.6 kilos and I was like, Oh my God, I cannot believe this baby was bigger than Murphy. Did you have any inkling like in pregnancy or anything that did you feel like he was any bigger or smaller or? I honestly, I did not focus at all on that. I was like, I probably just have big babies. Yeah. I didn't want any growth scans. I was like, don't you dare measure him. I do not want to know. You know that he needs to know. My body. makes babies the right size for me. And yeah, so I never, like I felt big and whatever, but. You didn't like put any thought towards it. No, no, that's fine. I was just curious. It's always interesting. And yeah, I just had like a very small first degree tear. I felt amazing in the days after I was walking around like with Murphy, I like couldn't sit for like a week or maybe even. to properly. I needed help to go to the toilet. I was so swollen. But with Frankie, yeah, I was literally up and walking about. Like on day three, I went to a market. Like, yeah, it was amazing. Amazing. Yeah. And I got like goosebumps as you were like talking about it in the end there. Yeah. I don't know whether or not it's because I've seen some photos from your birth and those moments where you've got impression in your arms, but it's just like, yeah, it's euphoric. Yeah, euphoric is like a really good way to put it because that, yeah, I just like, yeah, I'm so excited, hopefully, to share the birth video when my midwife hopefully approves it. But, um. Like, yeah, I just am saying like, I did it, I did it. And yeah, I'll never forget it. Such a moment. Aw. But those are my birth stories. Yeah. It's so nice that you had a journey that helped you heal from that. Yeah. As well. Yeah, I didn't even know that I needed to heal from it, but I feel, you know, I work in mental health and. Um, there's, you know, lots and lots of people out there that are going on their own like trauma, um, journeys, like healing from all sorts of trauma. And I wouldn't say that my experience was traumatic, but it did affect me. Um, it affected, you know, my experience with Frankie in a way that I didn't even realize. Um, but yeah, like I just, I felt like, wow, this must be. what people feel like when they're, you know, we talk about like, um, recovery journeys in like mental health. And I was like, this must be what it feels like. Like it, I hope everybody can feel like this. Um, like that moment really? Yeah. And I guess that's why I have this podcast because I, I want to share. All. all stories across the home birth spectrum. Bring light to the journey and build that community as well. As you say, like, you know, there's so many people that may or may not have people in their village that are going through the same journey. So if you can lean into other's stories, whether or not they're in your backyard or not, then it's gonna be of benefit to people. Yeah. Absolutely. Future families, future home birth families. Exactly.